kit that is also addressed in the Exodus verse, that has always been against the law, that is a crime against another person.
an abortion is a medical procedure and in medical procedure a dr. has consent and it is not a crime.
if a person dies during say a heart surgery a dr. is not held accoutable or responsible in criminal court ever. possibly civil if it is proven to be gross neglegence.
t-bone because most of your questions do not have much to do with abortion, unless as always you want to assume a tone of conjecture.
I can go to a religous web site and copy and paste without even knowing what the verses actualy say like you do and then ask question about what i pasted in ignorance for 1/2 the thread, but somehow i hope for a more personal or intelligent discussion.
tell me what is it you have come up with for a conslusion?
Psalm139 and the fact God made man is not such a shocking revelation to anyone T-Bone. God is our creator and I also praise him for it. that verses says how wonderful we are Made the marvel is in the creation of mankind.
and has little or nothing to do with abortion.
the bible also speaks alot more of how many enemys of God he will kill, and has killed. The Ot folks atributed everything to God death and Life because they had no permanent holy spirit and were rendered helpless to understand Gods voice for the most part.
In the new birth anyone who choses Jesus christ as Lord has holy spirit and can communicate personly with the LORD.
I happen to know it was satan who killed them but God ALLOWED satan his authority, because he is not a liar and is righteous and adam gave satan the authority by free will CHOICE given by God to man. God can only save those He can with their own obedience to His word.
it is the people choice to live or die.
wicked people, evil people, unbelievers and the enemys of God are also wonderfully made and formed in the womb as the Psalm 139 states yet no mercy is granted to their life T-Bone.
So I think Genesis holds some truth about what is alive or not.
Chapter 1
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Chapter 2
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
That probably throws things in a tail spin for some or not. I don't know. But it seems to me that this life that everyone is talking about started here in Genesis and continues to this day and beyond.
Whether it's a fetus or child that physically out of the womb, it is still life.
Much like the spiritual birth. There is life within each person and the birth of that spiritual life. Both living, Both Real.
While it may be dormant as a seed in an egg it is still life.
On the ways of the world judging this decision about abortion, I believe that it would have to be a case by case basis. If someone was brutally raped and got pregnant and want to abort,I'd agree. If two people get together by consent and get pregnant I believe that they should take resposibility for what happened and have the baby, and maybe put the child up for adoption if they so choose. Mostly the mother I'd think would choose, though I think the father has some say so in the matter. In a case where the pregnant woman's life is at stake, I believe this choice lies exclusively in the hands of the mother.
Finally, I think life is in that fetus, from the beginning....and from THE beginning.
t-bone because most of your questions do not have much to do with abortion, unless as always you want to assume a tone of conjecture.
I can go to a religous web site and copy and paste without even knowing what the verses actualy say like you do and then ask question about what i pasted in ignorance for 1/2 the thread, but somehow i hope for a more personal or intelligent discussion.
tell me what is it you have come up with for a conslusion?
Pond, thank you for responding – a personal AND intelligent conversation as you mentioned would be most enjoyable. :) I would think my questions are very relevant to abortion [abortion on this thread defined as the deliberate – intentional – termination of a pregnancy]. Since murder [the premeditated and deliberate act of taking another person's life] is forbidden by God [Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder."], I thought it would be sensible to search the Scriptures to see if God considered the fetus a person. Which according to Psalm 139:13-16 it appears He does – and so my conclusion is that abortion is murder too.
If the English translation of the bible doesn't contain the English word "abortion", or even if the Hebrew or Greek lacks the Hebrew or Greek equivalent, does that mean that that God ignores it? Doesn't have an opinion one way or another? There is no word "embezzle" in the bible, but a case can be easily made that the act of embezzling is looked at in the same manner as other named sins.
God proscribes murder. If a fetus is killed under the same circumstances that a person who has been born has been murdered then it is reasonable to call it murder. Unless there is another section where this reasoning is contradicted.
What about Numbers 5 where a woman sleeps with another man besides her husband. The husband brings her before the priest and he makes her drink something. Isn't that dealing with abortion?
The psalm is talking about how God created us , how cool it is to be pregnate how a little tiny egg and seed can make this person.
We all still think that is an awesome feat !
Read the enitre psalm he talks about how God does all this from "dust" .
God created only adam and eve the rest of us just went forth and mutipled it WE mutiplied one another as did all the animals and fish and alive things including plants.
plants are alive , bacteria is alive many things are alive.. what does that have to do with whether abortion is wrong or right?
With the right ingrediants man makes man , not God, we can even clone God has nothing do do with performance of the body he created and how people use it or not. unless we pray and ask him.
Are you saying all men are made by God? no God created man and then man went about making more of them with the process of getting pregnate and having babies as did every other living thing!
psalm 139 marvels at the wonder at how it is done and how finely it is out together from just "dust".
if i have a seed and i plant it i get a flower . god made the flowers but this flower got here by my planting the seed and water ing it and sunshine etc.
If God made all fetus then why would some not live? a mistake? a lesson of learning about heartache and sorrow? come on be real .
acat has kittens and you are saying God put everyone in its pregnancy it is the same with unbelievers they have babies, God has little or no say in the matter.
are they alive? maybe. what does that have to do with whether God thinks abortion is worng?
another thing the psalm is not what god is saying to man but rather what man is saying to God about His work.
Thou shall not kill? that is your excuse then how do you justify all the killings in the bible that happen? Right God does not want anyone to die and many many times they are killed by one reason or another. illness is sin in and of itself.
if you die of an illness you are KILLED>
God had the people KILL animals in which they WERE KILLED in worship for HIM to replace their sins.
come on be real. The lambs and goats and birds that many took to jerusalem every year was to pay God... guess what they were alive untill they were slaughtered. Many soldiers of God were killed in battle over and over again because they didnt heed His voice. all killed.
killing is common in the bible and God orders some of it alot of it. He has Rules concerning killing but killing is sanctified .
and we do not know that because a Psalm thinks it is awesome how God created our bodies to work how he did it all out of dust!! how does have anything at all to do with abortion? it doesnt even adress itin any way!
When God was done making Adam and EVE his work was DONE and he thought it was good !! after that we mutiplied as did every other living thing God didnt have thing to do with it unless we asked him to bless our life. many do not but guess what their bodies still can make a babies.
Are you saying all men are made by God?no God created man and then man went about making more of them with the process of getting pregnate and having babies as did every other living thing!
psalm 139 marvels at the wonder at how it is done and how finely it is out together from just "dust".
if i have a seed and i plant it i get a flower . god made the flowers but this flower got here by my planting the seed and water ing it and sunshine etc.
If God made all fetusthen why would some not live? a mistake? a lesson of learning about heartache and sorrow? come on be real .
acat has kittens and you are saying God put everyone in its pregnancy it is the same with unbelievers they have babies, God has little or no say in the matter.
are they alive? maybe.what does that have to do with whether God thinks abortion is worng?
another thing the psalm is not what god is saying to man but rather what man is saying to God about His work.
…The Bible says man was made in the image of God. That is why murder is forbidden according to Genesis 9:6, "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man" [NIV]. Pond, if all human beings bear the image of God – and if the fetus is considered another human being – wouldn't it be logical to conclude that God thinks abortion is wrong?
Pond, perhaps you missed the detail in Psalm 139:13 "…you knit me together in my mother's womb…". This indicates two things: the action is taking place inside the mother's womb [not referring to Genesis when God made man out of the dust of the earth] and that some how God is involved with this action in the womb. And yes this psalm is man praising God for His wonderful work – that does not take away from the truth that the psalm is still inspired of God. Any more so than Genesis is man's description of God's creation – a record written by man yet inspired of God.
When God was done with his work in Genisus he says it is finished.
He did not put a fetus in a womb sexual intercourse did the wonder of making a baby, so I could say knit or i could say construct I could say glued, the psalm is saying it is a marvel how a your word "fetus" comes about.
A woman and a man KNIT together to make a baby God does not do anything at all . and baababa boom a baby.
God doesnt knit the man and woman do and that as far as the psalmist is concderned is how they made another and it was so great he wrote a song of praise. It sounds like a new dad , or anew mom over joyed with the glee .
Where does your theory leave the many million and millions of babys concieved in a test tube hmm? it is silly. and ignores
Genesis 61-4 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born unto them.
that the sons of God saw the daughters of men and that they were fair, and they took them wives of all which they chose. and the Lord said. MY spirit shall not STRIVE with man, for that is he is also flesh yet his days shall be 120 years.
Earlier in genisus in 1: And God said , let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed and the fru9t tree yeilding FRUIT after its kind whose seed is in itself , upon the earth.
All human being do not have the image of God t-bone..In fact the bible says very few have HOLY spirit .
God is Spirit and to be in HIS image is to have what HE IS which is Spirit.
No one has ever been born with SPIRIT not even Jesus Christ who got it when JOHN baptisted HIM with the white dove!! and God actualy made jesus His seed!!! that FACT I find amazing in and of itself...
God CREATED Adam and EVE he didnt make mankind we mutiplied just like everything eles, Adam and EVE blew it and lost their spirits that is why they were ashamed of talking to God in the garden.
after that God allowed people holy spirit only when He decided, then Jesus the SECOND Adam came and didnt blow it YEEEHAW and today we can again have that "image " of God that fellowship that communication without conditions by believing God raised him form the dead.
all men are born dead T-bone unless they chose to make Jesus LORD they will abort their life and live a maximum of 120 as the dust that God had said.
Man seed is in itself hello man makes man in the womb.Genisus 1 27,28 God made both Adam and EVE out of DUSThe gave them soul. and in verse in verse 28 God said unto them be fruitful and mutiply they did the mutiplying not God.Genesis 1:-2:2and on the seventh day God ENDED his work which he had made: and he rested on the sevethday from all his work.
leviticus 17: 11 for the life of the flesh is in the blood!!! soul life comes from the blood line of mankind. not God.
So lets consider what happens NEXT Genesis 1:27 God created man in HIS image!!!....He gave them a holy spirit so he could communicate with them, God could not talk to the animals only adam could why? the animals only had soul life they did not have the holy spirit. Adam originaly had rule over all the animals but lost it when he fell from the grace of God! God didnt give himself rule he gave it to adam. because the animals do not have spirit only soul life.
God didnt get tired he didnt get sleepy hewas DONE finished with his work that word rested is the same word used for Jesus Christ when he sat down at the right hand of God and "RESTED" HIS work was done. that is why God sanctified the Sabbath to rest from all His work and creations!
HUGE verse here...
JOHN 4:24
God is Spirit!!!! wow look at that!!!! The image of God MUST BE spirit!!
and it is and was for adam and EVE God gave these two people he made from the dust a Spirit that was in HIS image , God is not of the flesh that is why he said 120 years because they adam and Eve are made from dust. and they were told to mutiply.
spirit can not die but people can, and TODAY WE CHOSE to make Jesus LORD to recieve that same Image of God spirit!!!
Adam and Eve had holy spirit so God could talk to them he gave it to them so they could commimicate they were never going to die or get sick or anything bad happen to them IF they did eat of the tree of life and GUESS what?
man fell from the grace of God in the garden.
and now we have a battle over good and evil and a CHOICE to make and that is the bible story.. through it all people kept having sex and making ababies.. the HOLY Spirit was only Given to people then on Conditions to get a job done no one was EVER "born with it" .
we are still not "born with holy spirit" we are "BORN AGAIN" from our fleshy nature to accept Jesus Christ as LORD. It is a choice.
Jesus christ was not born with holy spirit IT was given to him when he was baptist by john in the form of a white dove.
God made adam and eve in HIs Image which is Spirit, Only God was above them , and they were told to obey one Rule and they couldnt do it and they lost the spirit and were thrown out of the life in the garden and .. well the book is quite lengthy .. so the second Adam came did OBEY died and was raised again and now we can be in the image of God and live forever.
if we believe the account of the first and Second adams.
God likes what He did when He made adam and Eve he says in genesis the second heaven and earth (the same heaven and earth peter speaks of in 3:7) was very good, but the animals and plants and fish etc were NOT "In his image" His image was given to adam and eve after he made them and they lost it all the dominion the fellowship all of it. they continued on with soul life made ton of babies and people only spoke with God on His terms when He wanted them to continue with His plan of Redeeming man , back to the original fellowship and communication God had wanted for them and Jesus accomplshed just that and that is why we call him the SAVIOR of man .
He saved us from certain death in our souls , be redeeming back that which God is HOLY Spirit. We need to believe this fact from the bible to have access once again to be the IMAGE of God as He truly wants us to be, but it is our choice.
Life is not sanctified because of satan, we have a choice to be redeemed or not .
man what a verse you bring up!! The verse 6 t-Bone what God is saying man blood will be shed by whom????
BY MAN will his blood be shed!!! BY MAN BY MAN man will shed your blood, not God .
WHY? because God made man in his own image WHICH is SPIRIT!!!!!
spirit does not have BLOOD nor does it die!!!! ,, and God is saying Man will shed the blood of MAN not HIM, because his fellowship is not with the flesh the part that will die, but with HIS IMAGE which is the SPIRIT!
God in verse 3 of the same chapter 6 says HIS SPIRT WILL NOT strive with man for his days are flesh.
VS 5 and God saw the wickedness of man was great in the earth.. and EVIL.
EVERY IMAGINATION OF THe HEART WAS ONLY CONTIUALLY EVIL GEnesis 6:7 and they were destroyed.
except Noah who God found favor and grace with . God made a PROMISE to NOAH only not to mankind.
Genesis 9 vs 5 says God requires the life of man, WHO DOES IT? MAN in fact at the hands of every mans brother.
death had entered the situation people will now die by thier own hand. yes the author is satan but God didnt tell the people about lucifer quite yet. not untill the redeemer came. God promised certain people promises in the old testiment that they will be saved from certain situations so Jesus could be born and SAVE the flesh from death.
He held to His promises to these folks because God can not LIE because why? BECAUSE He is not a man. He is spirit.
Like Noah God promised Abraham he would father a nation.. and the people would number like the sand , and they got old and old and old
and Abraham had sex with the hand maiden because Sara was so old she knew she didnt have her period anymore .. the child concieved was NOT the PROMISE from God...
then Sara got pregante and when she was told she cracked up laughing at the MIRiCLE because she was to old to have kids by NORMAL physical means!!!! it was the PROMISE of God come to pass and God in his infinate way of showing people it is UP to HIM who gets blessed and who doesnt, because God had PROMISED Abraham, he waited till everyone was so darn old it was impossible to have it happen by any other means than a miricle!!!!
this is a miricle and in a class by itself , God was fullfilling the promise to Abrham finally!!! and the nations will start with the baby Sara was pregnate with! Sara was a fabulous believer of God and I bet she did doubt she was even pregnate barren all those years and now the baby leaped!!! THE entire world Rejoices when God blesses US!!!
WE feel JOY with his deliverence !!!
and this indeed was NO doubt a MIRICLE pregnancy! and a miricle that God has delivered His entire people once again. so what I am saying given the circumstance of the promise to abe the fact SARA was so very very very old she knew her body could not do it naturaly and she had been unable to concieve.. the fact that this preganacy was PROMISED BY GOD to ABE ONLY . Makes it a huge exception from the rest of mankind.
No other man has been promised to be the father or that His children will number like the sand... it was special circumstance like when Noah was spared. This was the BLOOD line of Jesus Christ, that God was so excited about. His goal was the redemption of all mankind.
All human being do not have the image of God t-bone..In fact the bible says very few have HOLY spirit .
God is Spirit and to be in HIS image is to have what HE IS which is Spirit…
…all men are born dead T-bone unless they chose to make Jesus LORD they will abort their life and live a maximum of 120 as the dust that God had said.
…Pond – this is great – we're discussing a key issue relevant to our topic and perhaps one of several areas where our viewpoints differ. If all men do not have the image of God, as you say, then why does Genesis 9:6 say "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man"? That seems all-inclusive to me – in other words suggesting every man bears the image of God [as implied in a similar reference in James 3:9, "With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness."]. The way I understand it, since the fall of man that image of God in man is still there but distorted as all other aspects of his being have been touched by sin.
Perhaps another point where we differ is on the topic of death. The way I understand it death is separation. Men are born spiritually dead. What is spiritual death? In Genesis God warned Adam and Eve that they would die [spiritually] if they ate of the forbidden fruit. Spiritual death is separation from God. Man still had the image of God – albeit negatively impacted by their rebellion. What is physical death? The separation of body and soul.
The theological basis in your post seems to go along the lines of TWI's threefold view of man – that he can be neatly dissected into three categories: body, soul and spirit. I no longer feel that doctrine is supported by Scripture. I hold to a more unified view of man. I understand soul and spirit to indicate different aspects of the same thing – the immaterial part of man. Similar to Jesus quoting the Old Testament in Mark 12:30, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength." I guess we could say from that verse man is a fourfold being :) …Another verse that leads me to think the soul is that immaterial/spiritual part of man is Matthew 10:28, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." I understand this to be referring to the second death, or eternal death – eternal separation from God.
I do apologize to everyone for digressing like this – I know I do tend to get a little verbose in my posts. However, I feel this is one of those topics that can't be handled lightly with a few pat answers – but may call upon us to declare our theological/philosophical underpinnings in order to reveal personal viewpoints/assumptions on key issues.
I wish i knew how to do that thing Oak does with the posts and but in questions under the post itself but I do not.
I will try to get to each of your points and I will give you scripture as I do not deal with conjecture in the scripture unless it is very very obvious.
a man named nicodemus had the same struugle you speak t-bone and Jesus talked to him about it in the book of john 3 1-10
now go read it and i will continue,
whew!!
so nic was a pharisee a greek, he was educated ine of isreals teachers
IN john 3the words "born again" are not the same greek words Translated in the church epistles. to save space do a word study now on the word anagennao used in 1 peter 1,3 and 1 peter 1:23 give birth
compare it to the word In john 3 this word is the greek words gennao and anothen which means from the top or beginnung.
Jesus was not offering the "new birth to nic" he spoke of entering the kingdom not salvation.
he was talking about Isreal's entering the kingdom.
Isaiah 26,19
Isahiah 32 15-17
ezekiel 37 12-14
God will have to put the spirit into these believers and then they will come to life. Ezek. 37 5,6-8-10-14.
they do not get saved , they enter the kingdom but it is a wholly different concept things changed with ACTS 2 and penticost.
entering the kingdom is NOT the same as Christian salvation!!
but a spirt is needed for both . Isreal is not part of the body of christ, an this can get long about how the Kingdom is set up so I will leave it at t at that. "Unless a dead person be given life by the spirit from above ( the wordsremember?) and come out of the grave (IE be born from above) he will not enter the MIllenial Kingdom when it comes he will remain dead in the ground"
that is a quote from page 266 from the christians hope by John Schoenhet.
so by scripture you theory is quite wrong. t-bone.
dead is dead t-bone until God gives them the First resurection and PUTS holy spirit into them.
As far as Mathew
yes it would mean death , we are BORN dead in this life until we get BORN AGAIN and receive life everlasting. by the blood of Jesus Christ. the key is to accept HIS RISEN body as a SAVIOR for our own. He saves us from the death we are born into because of the chice of the first Adam.
Are we dead? we have life we breath we have flesh, but God is not going to DEAL with us on that level. He is SPIRIT and concerns himself ONLY with what He is as far as redemming of course God wants all men to be SAVED, but it is a choice made by man himself. Jesus is our LORD and God gave HIM all authority now.
if a believer dies his soul life and body ends we have HOPE because of the KINGDOM come in which Jesus will raise us, when he returns to collect His body , HIS new LIFE in us.
but God says to be afraid of the one who can KILL the soul and body , if you have the seed of christ the new life if your born again you do not have to worry about it because YOU will be raised up to meet HIM to life forever then.
the subject of the christians HOPE for life everlasting is a very comlpex structure t-Bone and many bible verses are involved.
I reccomend the Christians HOPE the anchor of the soul by John W. Schoenheit. by his own admission he is a bible nerd and covers it so much better than I ever could think of. I tried to give you just a tiny bit, but trust me God knows what he is doing and he wants us to study the bible so we can not be ashamed as NICODEMOUS was when Jesus was so very surprised He didnt know as a teacher what would happen regarding the entering of the kingdom. it happens.
if you do not believe people are dead Genesis 2 16,17 And the Lord God commanded the man saying OF every tree of the garden thou may freely eat. But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shall not eat of it for in the day thou eastest thereof thou shalt surely DIE!
hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death-that is the devil.
Satan asked eve and adam if God really said that they must not eat from any tree in the garden Genesis 3:1
then he said "Ye shall not surely die" genesis 3-4
adam ate of the tree and death did happen to all of mankind.
Romans 5 12
Wherefore as by one man (adam) sin entered into the world and DEATH by sin and so death passed upon all for all have sinned.
So clearly we are dead, to God from this point forward and have
another god satan who has rule and the dominion, until we are SAVED by Jesus christ.
another good resource is "Is there Death after Life " by Mark Graeser John Lynn and John Schoenheit.
Thanks, Pond – there are a lot of things I want to read. In thinking over your posts on this thread, I'd say you've got enough material to start quite a few doctrinal threads :) …Bringing it back to the issues related to this thread – let me see if I've got a clear understanding of our different viewpoints. You believe the unborn do NOT bear the image of God and that there is nothing morally wrong with deliberately aborting a fetus. I believe the unborn DOES bear the image of God and [except in cases where the mother's life is in jeopardy] think that deliberately aborting a fetus is morally wrong – equivalent to murder.
I didnt say God is Spirit without flesh HE does. to be his image is HIS SPIRT which is all that He IS. which was given to adam and eve without condition then they couldnt obey and it was given on a very conditional base as PROMISES from God to a very select few in the OT>
wE ARE BORN DEAD SPIRITUALY, WE have flesh and blood. and "life" is in the blood leviticus. God is spirit hello we have no spirit when we are born!!! we have life because life comes from the blood. so do all animals.
Did ya read what God thought of mankind when the flood happended? evil all the time continuously not exactly the IMAGE of any God I would want to worship!!!
God is love he doesnt do evil , he doesnt murder , or kill. people do we are not made in his image we were created to be in his image to have a relationship with HIM.. but it took a few turns and conditions along the way because of satan and the whole tree of life and CHOICE thing.
people are made from their own kind other people. Just like everything eles God created in Genesis. God has only HIS chosen he takes care of and He knew them before the foundation of this whole mess was even started! so the word CHOSEN of God cetainly implies others will not be chosen really alive people with their own agendas that have nothing what so ever so do with God, unbelievers.
how are they made ?
they are made the same exact way believers are made by having sex, they get born and they die. no image of God at all, no spirit ever.
Babies are a reflection of God mighty creation to be sure. As far as religous morals and right and wrong I allow Jesus to be the final judge on how people conduct their life and on an issue that is clearly NOT adressed in the bible such as a abortion I would be the very last to judge my brother or sister.
God gave us life He would not consider one life to be more "important" over another as in (your only if a mom life was in jepordy. ) he isnt like that he does not pick and chose who should live or die that is truly freaking disgusting and appalling of His HOLY LOVE for all of us. God is no respector of people. Acts 10:34
God give HIS people a Choice to worship HIM or not T-Bone we are not forced to chose Jesus Christ as our SAVIOR, Read the above posts again. particlarly hebrews and many others. WE have a choice now between LIFE and death. and it isnt UP to God it is up to each person to decide.
God has nothing what so ever to do with DEATH his image has not one bit of death in it... yet we people are all born into that state clearly, and we need to get BORN again to get out of it and have the Spirit He offers us.
my thoughts my morals have little or nothing to do with what I wrote here for Gods doctrine, i do not tell my opinion, i speak from the bible the words of truth.
I have chapter and verse and you have nothing but what you think.. well I guess if that is all folks need for "truth" well then the standard is wide open as big as mankind thoughts. that isnt good enough for me, I stick to what the bible says, and your whole "image of God theory has been blown out of the water by HOLY SCRIPTURE . it is your right to believe what you want doesnt mean it is what the bible says is truth.
Genesis 9:6 says "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man."
The word man in this verse is 'adam which means mankind. Any human bean whose blood is shed dies physically. God 'creates" spirit in a man, but the soul is "made". The word image does not mean it has to be spirit. If you look at my avatar, you will see my image, but it is not flesh and blood. The word means a replica or shadow. Man's soul was created the first time separately from the animals. There is something unique about it that only humans share with God. Perhaps it is the gift of speech, I don't know, but it doesn't have to be spirit.
Murder is a sin. It applies to the physical death of humans, not spiritual. If a spiritually dead man is killed unlawfully, it is murder. The question is, does murder apply to a fetus the same as it would if the child were born and have taken its first breath.
I didnt say God is Spirit without flesh HE does. to be his image is HIS SPIRT which is all that He IS. which was given to adam and eve without condition then they couldnt obey and it was given on a very conditional base as PROMISES from God to a very select few in the OT>
wE ARE BORN DEAD SPIRITUALY, WE have flesh and blood. and "life" is in the blood leviticus. God is spirit hello we have no spirit when we are born!!! we have life because life comes from the blood. so do all animals.
Did ya read what God thought of mankind when the flood happended? evil all the time continuously not exactly the IMAGE of any God I would want to worship!!!
God is love he doesnt do evil , he doesnt murder , or kill. people do we are not made in his image we were created to be in his image to have a relationship with HIM.. but it took a few turns and conditions along the way because of satan and the whole tree of life and CHOICE thing.
people are made from their own kind other people. Just like everything eles God created in Genesis. God has only HIS chosen he takes care of and He knew them before the foundation of this whole mess was even started! so the word CHOSEN of God cetainly implies others will not be chosen really alive people with their own agendas that have nothing what so ever so do with God, unbelievers.
how are they made ?
they are made the same exact way believers are made by having sex, they get born and they die. no image of God at all, no spirit ever.
Babies are a reflection of God mighty creation to be sure. As far as religous morals and right and wrong I allow Jesus to be the final judge on how people conduct their life and on an issue that is clearly NOT adressed in the bible such as a abortion I would be the very last to judge my brother or sister.
God gave us life He would not consider one life to be more "important" over another as in (your only if a mom life was in jepordy. ) he isnt like that he does not pick and chose who should live or die that is truly freaking disgusting and appalling of His HOLY LOVE for all of us. God is no respector of people. Acts 10:34
God give HIS people a Choice to worship HIM or not T-Bone we are not forced to chose Jesus Christ as our SAVIOR, Read the above posts again. particlarly hebrews and many others. WE have a choice now between LIFE and death. and it isnt UP to God it is up to each person to decide.
God has nothing what so ever to do with DEATH his image has not one bit of death in it... yet we people are all born into that state clearly, and we need to get BORN again to get out of it and have the Spirit He offers us.
my thoughts my morals have little or nothing to do with what I wrote here for Gods doctrine, i do not tell my opinion, i speak from the bible the words of truth.
I have chapter and verse and you have nothing but what you think.. well I guess if that is all folks need for "truth" well then the standard is wide open as big as mankind thoughts. that isnt good enough for me, I stick to what the bible says, and your whole "image of God theory has been blown out of the water by HOLY SCRIPTURE . it is your right to believe what you want doesnt mean it is what the bible says is truth.
Thanks, Pond for this and all your posts that have revealed your thoughts, opinions, and doctrine on quite a few subjects.
Does anyone know anything about Numbers 5? Is that about abortion? A man suspects his wife is sleeping with another man, so he brings her to the priest. The priest makes her drink some concoction, and if I'm reading this right, if she's pregnant, the baby's aborted.
Not that I know what this verse is saying - but I DO know that there are some powerful herbs that will cause a woman to miscarry. I know because when I was pregnant with my first daughter, I was trying to buy a particular herb and in the process of finding out more about it the shop owner said that I shouldn't even touch it. I believed her.
yes some do refer to the image as being the capacity to communicate with God..
it is diffferent I covered that in the fact God gave adam the authority over the animals in the garden , He wants fellwoship with the people who are Like him they can talk and also "reason" no one had dominion over adam and eve except God.
this is different than the animals as they needed a care taker and couldnt talk and couldnt really reason. they can think but not reason.
people are the only creation made in the image of fellowshipping and communicating with their creator. and with one another, also probably LOVE and the capcity to LOVE has to be more likely because God is love. God made peole a superiour creation in many many ways because he wanted to see us to be able to understand us and for us to understand HIM and HIs ways as a relationship not a Dominion type of thing. God really did want a family. still does. He made us so we could chose to love HIM or not chose to love HIM . this is different than the other creations and in His image.
but being made in this image did not change the fact that when they fell from grace all human became dead spiritualy and physicaly.
i supppose I assumed some may think that because God is spirit and can not die they would think that all mankind would not die because they are made in his image.
and that is the original lie of satan in the garden "surly you will not die"
when God said YOU will die. and mankind did die both spiritualy and physicly on that day.
I briefly read the Numbers 5:28 passage i have to get to work now, but that is some news flash there.
this is a lady who has a husband who thinks she may have slept with another man, and her belly will swell and her thighs will rot!!!
my oh my .
the concern may have been pregnacy or a disease she picked up a disease sexualy. after all is said and done if the priest is successful she can concieve seed. if not she is defiled and the husband is not to be blamed. I rather think she picked up syphulis, by sleeping around. It says she was never caught so the husband cant know for sure... so he must have some reason to take her to the priest, she would not tell knowing she would be sent out of the camp for that.
the context is one who is defiled God is telling moses how to take care of the people things like being clean waste all the every day things they should do to stay healthy. he made them law. disease had gotten into the people by this point clearly.
syphulas has been found in age old man in the stone age even so it is possible she may have had a sexual disease transmitted to her and it would indeed render her unable to "concieve seed" where in a preganacy would not .
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pond
kit that is also addressed in the Exodus verse, that has always been against the law, that is a crime against another person.
an abortion is a medical procedure and in medical procedure a dr. has consent and it is not a crime.
if a person dies during say a heart surgery a dr. is not held accoutable or responsible in criminal court ever. possibly civil if it is proven to be gross neglegence.
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pond
t-bone because most of your questions do not have much to do with abortion, unless as always you want to assume a tone of conjecture.
I can go to a religous web site and copy and paste without even knowing what the verses actualy say like you do and then ask question about what i pasted in ignorance for 1/2 the thread, but somehow i hope for a more personal or intelligent discussion.
tell me what is it you have come up with for a conslusion?
Psalm139 and the fact God made man is not such a shocking revelation to anyone T-Bone. God is our creator and I also praise him for it. that verses says how wonderful we are Made the marvel is in the creation of mankind.
and has little or nothing to do with abortion.
the bible also speaks alot more of how many enemys of God he will kill, and has killed. The Ot folks atributed everything to God death and Life because they had no permanent holy spirit and were rendered helpless to understand Gods voice for the most part.
In the new birth anyone who choses Jesus christ as Lord has holy spirit and can communicate personly with the LORD.
I happen to know it was satan who killed them but God ALLOWED satan his authority, because he is not a liar and is righteous and adam gave satan the authority by free will CHOICE given by God to man. God can only save those He can with their own obedience to His word.
it is the people choice to live or die.
wicked people, evil people, unbelievers and the enemys of God are also wonderfully made and formed in the womb as the Psalm 139 states yet no mercy is granted to their life T-Bone.
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dancing
Two aspects of man. Both living both real.
So I think Genesis holds some truth about what is alive or not.
Chapter 1
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Chapter 2
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
That probably throws things in a tail spin for some or not. I don't know. But it seems to me that this life that everyone is talking about started here in Genesis and continues to this day and beyond.
Whether it's a fetus or child that physically out of the womb, it is still life.
Much like the spiritual birth. There is life within each person and the birth of that spiritual life. Both living, Both Real.
While it may be dormant as a seed in an egg it is still life.
On the ways of the world judging this decision about abortion, I believe that it would have to be a case by case basis. If someone was brutally raped and got pregnant and want to abort,I'd agree. If two people get together by consent and get pregnant I believe that they should take resposibility for what happened and have the baby, and maybe put the child up for adoption if they so choose. Mostly the mother I'd think would choose, though I think the father has some say so in the matter. In a case where the pregnant woman's life is at stake, I believe this choice lies exclusively in the hands of the mother.
Finally, I think life is in that fetus, from the beginning....and from THE beginning.
Peace, Love and rock and roll!!
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T-Bone
Pond, thank you for responding – a personal AND intelligent conversation as you mentioned would be most enjoyable. :) I would think my questions are very relevant to abortion [abortion on this thread defined as the deliberate – intentional – termination of a pregnancy]. Since murder [the premeditated and deliberate act of taking another person's life] is forbidden by God [Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder."], I thought it would be sensible to search the Scriptures to see if God considered the fetus a person. Which according to Psalm 139:13-16 it appears He does – and so my conclusion is that abortion is murder too.
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Oakspear
If the English translation of the bible doesn't contain the English word "abortion", or even if the Hebrew or Greek lacks the Hebrew or Greek equivalent, does that mean that that God ignores it? Doesn't have an opinion one way or another? There is no word "embezzle" in the bible, but a case can be easily made that the act of embezzling is looked at in the same manner as other named sins.
God proscribes murder. If a fetus is killed under the same circumstances that a person who has been born has been murdered then it is reasonable to call it murder. Unless there is another section where this reasoning is contradicted.
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VeganXTC
What about Numbers 5 where a woman sleeps with another man besides her husband. The husband brings her before the priest and he makes her drink something. Isn't that dealing with abortion?
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pond
The psalm is talking about how God created us , how cool it is to be pregnate how a little tiny egg and seed can make this person.
We all still think that is an awesome feat !
Read the enitre psalm he talks about how God does all this from "dust" .
God created only adam and eve the rest of us just went forth and mutipled it WE mutiplied one another as did all the animals and fish and alive things including plants.
plants are alive , bacteria is alive many things are alive.. what does that have to do with whether abortion is wrong or right?
With the right ingrediants man makes man , not God, we can even clone God has nothing do do with performance of the body he created and how people use it or not. unless we pray and ask him.
Are you saying all men are made by God? no God created man and then man went about making more of them with the process of getting pregnate and having babies as did every other living thing!
psalm 139 marvels at the wonder at how it is done and how finely it is out together from just "dust".
if i have a seed and i plant it i get a flower . god made the flowers but this flower got here by my planting the seed and water ing it and sunshine etc.
If God made all fetus then why would some not live? a mistake? a lesson of learning about heartache and sorrow? come on be real .
acat has kittens and you are saying God put everyone in its pregnancy it is the same with unbelievers they have babies, God has little or no say in the matter.
are they alive? maybe. what does that have to do with whether God thinks abortion is worng?
another thing the psalm is not what god is saying to man but rather what man is saying to God about His work.
Thou shall not kill? that is your excuse then how do you justify all the killings in the bible that happen? Right God does not want anyone to die and many many times they are killed by one reason or another. illness is sin in and of itself.
if you die of an illness you are KILLED>
God had the people KILL animals in which they WERE KILLED in worship for HIM to replace their sins.
come on be real. The lambs and goats and birds that many took to jerusalem every year was to pay God... guess what they were alive untill they were slaughtered. Many soldiers of God were killed in battle over and over again because they didnt heed His voice. all killed.
killing is common in the bible and God orders some of it alot of it. He has Rules concerning killing but killing is sanctified .
and we do not know that because a Psalm thinks it is awesome how God created our bodies to work how he did it all out of dust!! how does have anything at all to do with abortion? it doesnt even adress itin any way!
When God was done making Adam and EVE his work was DONE and he thought it was good !! after that we mutiplied as did every other living thing God didnt have thing to do with it unless we asked him to bless our life. many do not but guess what their bodies still can make a babies.
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T-Bone
…The Bible says man was made in the image of God. That is why murder is forbidden according to Genesis 9:6, "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man" [NIV]. Pond, if all human beings bear the image of God – and if the fetus is considered another human being – wouldn't it be logical to conclude that God thinks abortion is wrong?
Pond, perhaps you missed the detail in Psalm 139:13 "…you knit me together in my mother's womb…". This indicates two things: the action is taking place inside the mother's womb [not referring to Genesis when God made man out of the dust of the earth] and that some how God is involved with this action in the womb. And yes this psalm is man praising God for His wonderful work – that does not take away from the truth that the psalm is still inspired of God. Any more so than Genesis is man's description of God's creation – a record written by man yet inspired of God.
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pond
When God was done with his work in Genisus he says it is finished.
He did not put a fetus in a womb sexual intercourse did the wonder of making a baby, so I could say knit or i could say construct I could say glued, the psalm is saying it is a marvel how a your word "fetus" comes about.
A woman and a man KNIT together to make a baby God does not do anything at all . and baababa boom a baby.
God doesnt knit the man and woman do and that as far as the psalmist is concderned is how they made another and it was so great he wrote a song of praise. It sounds like a new dad , or anew mom over joyed with the glee .
Where does your theory leave the many million and millions of babys concieved in a test tube hmm? it is silly. and ignores
Genesis 61-4 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth and daughters were born unto them.
that the sons of God saw the daughters of men and that they were fair, and they took them wives of all which they chose. and the Lord said. MY spirit shall not STRIVE with man, for that is he is also flesh yet his days shall be 120 years.
Earlier in genisus in 1: And God said , let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed and the fru9t tree yeilding FRUIT after its kind whose seed is in itself , upon the earth.
All human being do not have the image of God t-bone..In fact the bible says very few have HOLY spirit .
God is Spirit and to be in HIS image is to have what HE IS which is Spirit.
No one has ever been born with SPIRIT not even Jesus Christ who got it when JOHN baptisted HIM with the white dove!! and God actualy made jesus His seed!!! that FACT I find amazing in and of itself...
God CREATED Adam and EVE he didnt make mankind we mutiplied just like everything eles, Adam and EVE blew it and lost their spirits that is why they were ashamed of talking to God in the garden.
after that God allowed people holy spirit only when He decided, then Jesus the SECOND Adam came and didnt blow it YEEEHAW and today we can again have that "image " of God that fellowship that communication without conditions by believing God raised him form the dead.
all men are born dead T-bone unless they chose to make Jesus LORD they will abort their life and live a maximum of 120 as the dust that God had said.
Man seed is in itself hello man makes man in the womb.Genisus 1 27,28 God made both Adam and EVE out of DUSThe gave them soul. and in verse in verse 28 God said unto them be fruitful and mutiply they did the mutiplying not God.Genesis 1:-2:2and on the seventh day God ENDED his work which he had made: and he rested on the sevethday from all his work.
leviticus 17: 11 for the life of the flesh is in the blood!!! soul life comes from the blood line of mankind. not God.
So lets consider what happens NEXT Genesis 1:27 God created man in HIS image!!!....He gave them a holy spirit so he could communicate with them, God could not talk to the animals only adam could why? the animals only had soul life they did not have the holy spirit. Adam originaly had rule over all the animals but lost it when he fell from the grace of God! God didnt give himself rule he gave it to adam. because the animals do not have spirit only soul life.
God didnt get tired he didnt get sleepy hewas DONE finished with his work that word rested is the same word used for Jesus Christ when he sat down at the right hand of God and "RESTED" HIS work was done. that is why God sanctified the Sabbath to rest from all His work and creations!
HUGE verse here...
JOHN 4:24
God is Spirit!!!! wow look at that!!!! The image of God MUST BE spirit!!
and it is and was for adam and EVE God gave these two people he made from the dust a Spirit that was in HIS image , God is not of the flesh that is why he said 120 years because they adam and Eve are made from dust. and they were told to mutiply.
spirit can not die but people can, and TODAY WE CHOSE to make Jesus LORD to recieve that same Image of God spirit!!!
Adam and Eve had holy spirit so God could talk to them he gave it to them so they could commimicate they were never going to die or get sick or anything bad happen to them IF they did eat of the tree of life and GUESS what?
man fell from the grace of God in the garden.
and now we have a battle over good and evil and a CHOICE to make and that is the bible story.. through it all people kept having sex and making ababies.. the HOLY Spirit was only Given to people then on Conditions to get a job done no one was EVER "born with it" .
we are still not "born with holy spirit" we are "BORN AGAIN" from our fleshy nature to accept Jesus Christ as LORD. It is a choice.
Jesus christ was not born with holy spirit IT was given to him when he was baptist by john in the form of a white dove.
God made adam and eve in HIs Image which is Spirit, Only God was above them , and they were told to obey one Rule and they couldnt do it and they lost the spirit and were thrown out of the life in the garden and .. well the book is quite lengthy .. so the second Adam came did OBEY died and was raised again and now we can be in the image of God and live forever.
if we believe the account of the first and Second adams.
God likes what He did when He made adam and Eve he says in genesis the second heaven and earth (the same heaven and earth peter speaks of in 3:7) was very good, but the animals and plants and fish etc were NOT "In his image" His image was given to adam and eve after he made them and they lost it all the dominion the fellowship all of it. they continued on with soul life made ton of babies and people only spoke with God on His terms when He wanted them to continue with His plan of Redeeming man , back to the original fellowship and communication God had wanted for them and Jesus accomplshed just that and that is why we call him the SAVIOR of man .
He saved us from certain death in our souls , be redeeming back that which God is HOLY Spirit. We need to believe this fact from the bible to have access once again to be the IMAGE of God as He truly wants us to be, but it is our choice.
Life is not sanctified because of satan, we have a choice to be redeemed or not .
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doojable
I'm tired........
Can we move on now?
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pond
sure and you can not comment on the bible verses once again!!!
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pond
man what a verse you bring up!! The verse 6 t-Bone what God is saying man blood will be shed by whom????
BY MAN will his blood be shed!!! BY MAN BY MAN man will shed your blood, not God .
WHY? because God made man in his own image WHICH is SPIRIT!!!!!
spirit does not have BLOOD nor does it die!!!! ,, and God is saying Man will shed the blood of MAN not HIM, because his fellowship is not with the flesh the part that will die, but with HIS IMAGE which is the SPIRIT!
God in verse 3 of the same chapter 6 says HIS SPIRT WILL NOT strive with man for his days are flesh.
VS 5 and God saw the wickedness of man was great in the earth.. and EVIL.
EVERY IMAGINATION OF THe HEART WAS ONLY CONTIUALLY EVIL GEnesis 6:7 and they were destroyed.
except Noah who God found favor and grace with . God made a PROMISE to NOAH only not to mankind.
Genesis 9 vs 5 says God requires the life of man, WHO DOES IT? MAN in fact at the hands of every mans brother.
death had entered the situation people will now die by thier own hand. yes the author is satan but God didnt tell the people about lucifer quite yet. not untill the redeemer came. God promised certain people promises in the old testiment that they will be saved from certain situations so Jesus could be born and SAVE the flesh from death.
He held to His promises to these folks because God can not LIE because why? BECAUSE He is not a man. He is spirit.
People are made from Sex t-Bone.
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pond
Like Noah God promised Abraham he would father a nation.. and the people would number like the sand , and they got old and old and old
and Abraham had sex with the hand maiden because Sara was so old she knew she didnt have her period anymore .. the child concieved was NOT the PROMISE from God...
then Sara got pregante and when she was told she cracked up laughing at the MIRiCLE because she was to old to have kids by NORMAL physical means!!!! it was the PROMISE of God come to pass and God in his infinate way of showing people it is UP to HIM who gets blessed and who doesnt, because God had PROMISED Abraham, he waited till everyone was so darn old it was impossible to have it happen by any other means than a miricle!!!!
this is a miricle and in a class by itself , God was fullfilling the promise to Abrham finally!!! and the nations will start with the baby Sara was pregnate with! Sara was a fabulous believer of God and I bet she did doubt she was even pregnate barren all those years and now the baby leaped!!! THE entire world Rejoices when God blesses US!!!
WE feel JOY with his deliverence !!!
and this indeed was NO doubt a MIRICLE pregnancy! and a miricle that God has delivered His entire people once again. so what I am saying given the circumstance of the promise to abe the fact SARA was so very very very old she knew her body could not do it naturaly and she had been unable to concieve.. the fact that this preganacy was PROMISED BY GOD to ABE ONLY . Makes it a huge exception from the rest of mankind.
No other man has been promised to be the father or that His children will number like the sand... it was special circumstance like when Noah was spared. This was the BLOOD line of Jesus Christ, that God was so excited about. His goal was the redemption of all mankind.
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T-Bone
…Pond – this is great – we're discussing a key issue relevant to our topic and perhaps one of several areas where our viewpoints differ. If all men do not have the image of God, as you say, then why does Genesis 9:6 say "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man"? That seems all-inclusive to me – in other words suggesting every man bears the image of God [as implied in a similar reference in James 3:9, "With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness."]. The way I understand it, since the fall of man that image of God in man is still there but distorted as all other aspects of his being have been touched by sin.
Perhaps another point where we differ is on the topic of death. The way I understand it death is separation. Men are born spiritually dead. What is spiritual death? In Genesis God warned Adam and Eve that they would die [spiritually] if they ate of the forbidden fruit. Spiritual death is separation from God. Man still had the image of God – albeit negatively impacted by their rebellion. What is physical death? The separation of body and soul.
The theological basis in your post seems to go along the lines of TWI's threefold view of man – that he can be neatly dissected into three categories: body, soul and spirit. I no longer feel that doctrine is supported by Scripture. I hold to a more unified view of man. I understand soul and spirit to indicate different aspects of the same thing – the immaterial part of man. Similar to Jesus quoting the Old Testament in Mark 12:30, "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength." I guess we could say from that verse man is a fourfold being :) …Another verse that leads me to think the soul is that immaterial/spiritual part of man is Matthew 10:28, "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell." I understand this to be referring to the second death, or eternal death – eternal separation from God.
I do apologize to everyone for digressing like this – I know I do tend to get a little verbose in my posts. However, I feel this is one of those topics that can't be handled lightly with a few pat answers – but may call upon us to declare our theological/philosophical underpinnings in order to reveal personal viewpoints/assumptions on key issues.
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pond
yeah i get a little type happy as well t- bone.
I wish i knew how to do that thing Oak does with the posts and but in questions under the post itself but I do not.
I will try to get to each of your points and I will give you scripture as I do not deal with conjecture in the scripture unless it is very very obvious.
a man named nicodemus had the same struugle you speak t-bone and Jesus talked to him about it in the book of john 3 1-10
now go read it and i will continue,
whew!!
so nic was a pharisee a greek, he was educated ine of isreals teachers
IN john 3the words "born again" are not the same greek words Translated in the church epistles. to save space do a word study now on the word anagennao used in 1 peter 1,3 and 1 peter 1:23 give birth
compare it to the word In john 3 this word is the greek words gennao and anothen which means from the top or beginnung.
Jesus was not offering the "new birth to nic" he spoke of entering the kingdom not salvation.
he was talking about Isreal's entering the kingdom.
Isaiah 26,19
Isahiah 32 15-17
ezekiel 37 12-14
God will have to put the spirit into these believers and then they will come to life. Ezek. 37 5,6-8-10-14.
they do not get saved , they enter the kingdom but it is a wholly different concept things changed with ACTS 2 and penticost.
entering the kingdom is NOT the same as Christian salvation!!
but a spirt is needed for both . Isreal is not part of the body of christ, an this can get long about how the Kingdom is set up so I will leave it at t at that. "Unless a dead person be given life by the spirit from above ( the wordsremember?) and come out of the grave (IE be born from above) he will not enter the MIllenial Kingdom when it comes he will remain dead in the ground"
that is a quote from page 266 from the christians hope by John Schoenhet.
so by scripture you theory is quite wrong. t-bone.
dead is dead t-bone until God gives them the First resurection and PUTS holy spirit into them.
As far as Mathew
yes it would mean death , we are BORN dead in this life until we get BORN AGAIN and receive life everlasting. by the blood of Jesus Christ. the key is to accept HIS RISEN body as a SAVIOR for our own. He saves us from the death we are born into because of the chice of the first Adam.
Are we dead? we have life we breath we have flesh, but God is not going to DEAL with us on that level. He is SPIRIT and concerns himself ONLY with what He is as far as redemming of course God wants all men to be SAVED, but it is a choice made by man himself. Jesus is our LORD and God gave HIM all authority now.
if a believer dies his soul life and body ends we have HOPE because of the KINGDOM come in which Jesus will raise us, when he returns to collect His body , HIS new LIFE in us.
but God says to be afraid of the one who can KILL the soul and body , if you have the seed of christ the new life if your born again you do not have to worry about it because YOU will be raised up to meet HIM to life forever then.
the subject of the christians HOPE for life everlasting is a very comlpex structure t-Bone and many bible verses are involved.
I reccomend the Christians HOPE the anchor of the soul by John W. Schoenheit. by his own admission he is a bible nerd and covers it so much better than I ever could think of. I tried to give you just a tiny bit, but trust me God knows what he is doing and he wants us to study the bible so we can not be ashamed as NICODEMOUS was when Jesus was so very surprised He didnt know as a teacher what would happen regarding the entering of the kingdom. it happens.
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pond
if you do not believe people are dead Genesis 2 16,17 And the Lord God commanded the man saying OF every tree of the garden thou may freely eat. But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shall not eat of it for in the day thou eastest thereof thou shalt surely DIE!
hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death-that is the devil.
Satan asked eve and adam if God really said that they must not eat from any tree in the garden Genesis 3:1
then he said "Ye shall not surely die" genesis 3-4
adam ate of the tree and death did happen to all of mankind.
Romans 5 12
Wherefore as by one man (adam) sin entered into the world and DEATH by sin and so death passed upon all for all have sinned.
So clearly we are dead, to God from this point forward and have
another god satan who has rule and the dominion, until we are SAVED by Jesus christ.
another good resource is "Is there Death after Life " by Mark Graeser John Lynn and John Schoenheit.
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T-Bone
Thanks, Pond – there are a lot of things I want to read. In thinking over your posts on this thread, I'd say you've got enough material to start quite a few doctrinal threads :) …Bringing it back to the issues related to this thread – let me see if I've got a clear understanding of our different viewpoints. You believe the unborn do NOT bear the image of God and that there is nothing morally wrong with deliberately aborting a fetus. I believe the unborn DOES bear the image of God and [except in cases where the mother's life is in jeopardy] think that deliberately aborting a fetus is morally wrong – equivalent to murder.
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pond
I do not inflict my "morals" on anyone.
God does not metion abortion in the bible .
the "image of God " is Spirit, John 4/24
I didnt say God is Spirit without flesh HE does. to be his image is HIS SPIRT which is all that He IS. which was given to adam and eve without condition then they couldnt obey and it was given on a very conditional base as PROMISES from God to a very select few in the OT>
wE ARE BORN DEAD SPIRITUALY, WE have flesh and blood. and "life" is in the blood leviticus. God is spirit hello we have no spirit when we are born!!! we have life because life comes from the blood. so do all animals.
Did ya read what God thought of mankind when the flood happended? evil all the time continuously not exactly the IMAGE of any God I would want to worship!!!
God is love he doesnt do evil , he doesnt murder , or kill. people do we are not made in his image we were created to be in his image to have a relationship with HIM.. but it took a few turns and conditions along the way because of satan and the whole tree of life and CHOICE thing.
people are made from their own kind other people. Just like everything eles God created in Genesis. God has only HIS chosen he takes care of and He knew them before the foundation of this whole mess was even started! so the word CHOSEN of God cetainly implies others will not be chosen really alive people with their own agendas that have nothing what so ever so do with God, unbelievers.
how are they made ?
they are made the same exact way believers are made by having sex, they get born and they die. no image of God at all, no spirit ever.
Babies are a reflection of God mighty creation to be sure. As far as religous morals and right and wrong I allow Jesus to be the final judge on how people conduct their life and on an issue that is clearly NOT adressed in the bible such as a abortion I would be the very last to judge my brother or sister.
God gave us life He would not consider one life to be more "important" over another as in (your only if a mom life was in jepordy. ) he isnt like that he does not pick and chose who should live or die that is truly freaking disgusting and appalling of His HOLY LOVE for all of us. God is no respector of people. Acts 10:34
God give HIS people a Choice to worship HIM or not T-Bone we are not forced to chose Jesus Christ as our SAVIOR, Read the above posts again. particlarly hebrews and many others. WE have a choice now between LIFE and death. and it isnt UP to God it is up to each person to decide.
God has nothing what so ever to do with DEATH his image has not one bit of death in it... yet we people are all born into that state clearly, and we need to get BORN again to get out of it and have the Spirit He offers us.
my thoughts my morals have little or nothing to do with what I wrote here for Gods doctrine, i do not tell my opinion, i speak from the bible the words of truth.
I have chapter and verse and you have nothing but what you think.. well I guess if that is all folks need for "truth" well then the standard is wide open as big as mankind thoughts. that isnt good enough for me, I stick to what the bible says, and your whole "image of God theory has been blown out of the water by HOLY SCRIPTURE . it is your right to believe what you want doesnt mean it is what the bible says is truth.
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DrtyDzn
Genesis 9:6 says "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man."
The word man in this verse is 'adam which means mankind. Any human bean whose blood is shed dies physically. God 'creates" spirit in a man, but the soul is "made". The word image does not mean it has to be spirit. If you look at my avatar, you will see my image, but it is not flesh and blood. The word means a replica or shadow. Man's soul was created the first time separately from the animals. There is something unique about it that only humans share with God. Perhaps it is the gift of speech, I don't know, but it doesn't have to be spirit.
Murder is a sin. It applies to the physical death of humans, not spiritual. If a spiritually dead man is killed unlawfully, it is murder. The question is, does murder apply to a fetus the same as it would if the child were born and have taken its first breath.
Jerry
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T-Bone
Thanks, Pond for this and all your posts that have revealed your thoughts, opinions, and doctrine on quite a few subjects.
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VeganXTC
ok, now.......
Does anyone know anything about Numbers 5? Is that about abortion? A man suspects his wife is sleeping with another man, so he brings her to the priest. The priest makes her drink some concoction, and if I'm reading this right, if she's pregnant, the baby's aborted.
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doojable
Not that I know what this verse is saying - but I DO know that there are some powerful herbs that will cause a woman to miscarry. I know because when I was pregnant with my first daughter, I was trying to buy a particular herb and in the process of finding out more about it the shop owner said that I shouldn't even touch it. I believed her.
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pond
yes some do refer to the image as being the capacity to communicate with God..
it is diffferent I covered that in the fact God gave adam the authority over the animals in the garden , He wants fellwoship with the people who are Like him they can talk and also "reason" no one had dominion over adam and eve except God.
this is different than the animals as they needed a care taker and couldnt talk and couldnt really reason. they can think but not reason.
people are the only creation made in the image of fellowshipping and communicating with their creator. and with one another, also probably LOVE and the capcity to LOVE has to be more likely because God is love. God made peole a superiour creation in many many ways because he wanted to see us to be able to understand us and for us to understand HIM and HIs ways as a relationship not a Dominion type of thing. God really did want a family. still does. He made us so we could chose to love HIM or not chose to love HIM . this is different than the other creations and in His image.
but being made in this image did not change the fact that when they fell from grace all human became dead spiritualy and physicaly.
i supppose I assumed some may think that because God is spirit and can not die they would think that all mankind would not die because they are made in his image.
and that is the original lie of satan in the garden "surly you will not die"
when God said YOU will die. and mankind did die both spiritualy and physicly on that day.
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pond
I briefly read the Numbers 5:28 passage i have to get to work now, but that is some news flash there.
this is a lady who has a husband who thinks she may have slept with another man, and her belly will swell and her thighs will rot!!!
my oh my .
the concern may have been pregnacy or a disease she picked up a disease sexualy. after all is said and done if the priest is successful she can concieve seed. if not she is defiled and the husband is not to be blamed. I rather think she picked up syphulis, by sleeping around. It says she was never caught so the husband cant know for sure... so he must have some reason to take her to the priest, she would not tell knowing she would be sent out of the camp for that.
the context is one who is defiled God is telling moses how to take care of the people things like being clean waste all the every day things they should do to stay healthy. he made them law. disease had gotten into the people by this point clearly.
syphulas has been found in age old man in the stone age even so it is possible she may have had a sexual disease transmitted to her and it would indeed render her unable to "concieve seed" where in a preganacy would not .
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