God is nothing but legal that is how the entire bible is written .
permission doesnt equal command come on now oh really Jesus was offered the entire world by satan and chose the answer of no. I think your point is silly given the fact for many pages no one has been able to come up with even a verse in the bible that metions abortion. No one in america is commanded by law of our land to get an abortion, it is a option for a medical procedure one can chose or not chose .
Pond, I'm not quite getting why you are being so antagonistic. My point was that just because abortion is legal does not force someone to choose abortion as an option. (I wasn't disagreeing with you or agreeing with you - it was a new point.) Actually you made my point with your illustration of Jesus being tempted and CHOOSING to not obey satan.
Also, lots of people here have acknowledged that the Bible doesn't use the word "Abortion." But the Bible does have a lot to say about the morality that might lead one to an abortion, as well as the question of death and the taking of a life.
And, correct me if I'm wrong Abi - but isn't Exodus referring to the judges in Israel and not just any old civil judge? If we are going to talk about the court system and compare it to Israel we might find ourselves comparing apples to oranges.
I'm just thinking in writing here. Sometimes we all need to just get the questions out in the open. The answers sometime come from just asking the right questions.
"And, correct me if I'm wrong Abi - but isn't Exodus referring to the judges in Israel and not just any old civil judge? "
Dooj, I suppose that would depend on one's POV. Certainly, many Christians today would see it as you stated above. The more orthodox Jews would tell you that it is the way Israel should be run today, smany would likely go so far as to say the whole world would be better off under the O.T. judicial system. Many conservative Jews might also agree with that, at least up to a point.
My personal POV is that the "how to BE a judge" part is very sound and would work for any civilization. As for the specific laws, I believe there is much to be learned from them and many would/should be applicable today. Others, I would not say that about, as our society and world has changed greatly since then. For example, what foods we can and cannot eat. It made sense in Biblical times, but in our day and time we are better able to preserve through refrigeration and we know more about cooking times and temperatures.
he clearly says in exodus in matters concerning one an another allow the courts to determine what is right and wrong in the LAW>
It clearly says that the judges will decide the punishment. The bible clearly claims that God decides what's right and what's wrong.
WEll He hasmore on His plate than a"fetus" it is all of mankind that rejects Jesus Christ as lord that will be aborted and die!!!do we still sin? um yeah that is why God says to make laws concerning your injustice to one another.
I know this topic is supposed to be about what GOD says about abortion, but obviously we are having some degree of difficulty discerning that, at least some of us are. Others, perhaps are confident they have found the answer.
If no one minds too terribly, I'd like to add a bit more to the mix. Taking a life, in and of itself, isn't always wrong. I think we can all agree on that. We kill living plants to eat. We kill animals to eat. At times we are even justified in killing another person - i.e. self defense. I think many of us would even agree there may be rare occassions when an abortion is justified - to save the life of the mother.
So, what if we looked at soul/spirit and what sets humans apart from other living things. Perhaps there, we can dig up more information on this issue. Christians see one aspect of what sets us apart as being holy spirit. Jews see it as "free will", the ability to think, to chose, to discern good from evil.
I am also thinking about how the human brain works, so I guess I am wanting to toss in a bit of science to the mix. If there are objections I can start another thread, but it is something that has been on my mind the last few days.
The brain functions on electrical impulses. Doctors can open the skull of a living human, send electrical impulses to certain parts of the brain and generate responses without any thought or action on the part of the person. They can make a person move an arm or leg, feel a ticklish sensation on their feet, even hallucinate. So I am wonder, how is it that we control where those electrical impulses go - it is something beyond our mere thoughts, I think. Is it the soul/spirit that controls those electrical impulses? Would an understanding of that someone change our opinions on abortion?
…So, what if we looked at soul/spirit and what sets humans apart from other living things.Perhaps there, we can dig up more information on this issue. Christians see one aspect of what sets us apart as being holy spirit. Jews see it as "free will", the ability to think, to chose, to discern good from evil.
I am also thinking about how the human brain works, so I guess I am wanting to toss in a bit of science to the mix. If there are objections I can start another thread, but it is something that has been on my mind the last few days…
Great post, Abigail – that is what I brought up in an earlier post [see below] – and I don't have a problem with what science can add as long as we can keep things on track with any relative sub-threads – which [and I'm not trying to speak for everyone just trying to help nail down what we're looking for] at this point I think is something along the lines of when does God consider a fetus a person, a human being.
T-Bone from post #133
When does a fetus become a human being?
What defines a human being? Or, what does it mean to be human?
What is the soul?
What is the image of God?
What is the relationship if any of the soul and/or image of God with a fetus?
…And in wondering what God thinks of a fetus I thought of something from Psalm 139. Psalm 139 shows a very intimate relationship between the psalmist and his God. The portion I've quoted below offers a glimpse from inside the womb - from an unusual viewpoint - it is God's view of the unborn. I have put every one of the writer's personal references in bold red.
From The NET Bible, Psalm 139: 13-16:
13. Certainly you made mymind and heart; you wove metogether in my mother's womb.
14. Iwill give you thanks because your deeds are awesome and amazing. You knew methoroughly;
15. my bones were not hidden from you, when Iwas made in secret and sewed together in the depths of the earth.
16. Your eyes saw me when I was inside the womb. All the days ordained for mewere recorded in your scroll before one of them came into existence.
When the writer speaks of himself in the womb – he refers to himself as a person – using personal pronouns "my, me, I."In addition, it appears that even in the earliest stages of the embryo God is some how intimately involved in human development. I am hard pressed to find a line of demarcation – a time before which the unborn is considered by God to be just an insignificant bunch of cells. And even if I would dare to pronounce a certain stage of growth as such – I think God's purpose for the individual - recorded BEFORE THEY EVEN CAME INTO EXISTENCE trumps my feeble attempt to dissect this awesome and mysterious work of wonder in the womb.
Abi--------- I'm with you on throwing a little science in the mix. Sure we're trying to find out what GOD says on the issue but we are after all talking about a medical proceedure . What could it possibly hurt to further understand the science and medicine involved in the focal point of our discussion? If we know what we are seeking an answer to it may get us closer to understanding the answer.
Great post, Abigail – that is what I brought up in an earlier post [see below] – and I don't have a problem with what science can add as long as we can keep things on track with any relative sub-threads
I agree. My biggest concern is that this thread can turn into something completely different than what was intended. But I have seen other threads do that, and the off-topic part is pulled and turned into a new thread. So, I don't see any harm.
If no one minds too terribly, I'd like to add a bit more to the mix. Taking a life, in and of itself, isn't always wrong. I think we can all agree on that. We kill living plants to eat. We kill animals to eat. At times we are even justified in killing another person - i.e. self defense. I think many of us would even agree there may be rare occassions when an abortion is justified - to save the life of the mother.
I'm going to make one more point here for now. Even in the rare occasions where killing another human is justified, there is something that goes happens soul of the person that does the killing.
Self-defense, justifiable homicide, and what police and soldiers do (don't know the legal term for that - but it the possibility of taking a human life is part of the "job" for the latter two) all end up making such a mark on the person who pulls the trigger. Policemen and soldiers have to go through debreifing after afterwards. Certainly the aborting of a fetus/baby would leave a mark on the soul of the mother.
Its so easy to get into the rights and wrongs of "killing the unborn" and forget the living. Perhaps this is another question that bears asking....
Is it possible that God is just as concerned with the soul of the mother as with the life of the unborn. I'm not talking about salvation here. I'm referring to the deep emotional wounds that surface later in life after an abortion. No matter what spurs the decision, the pain of abortion comes back to bite the mother in the tushy.
Hopefully I have not derailed the thread. I am all for looking into the science behind all this.
There was a movie being shown in churches a while back called, "The Scream" It shows a ultra sensative ultrasound of a fetus being aborted. the fetus moves away from the needle several times. When it finally is stuck with the needle is appears to scream in utero. No sound - just visuals. If you have seen this movie I think your thoughts on this subject are valid.
God gives us a choice to CHOSE whether we abort our own life or recieve life eternal.
Death or life is up to each individual , God does not dictate what you will chose.
that is a moral standard if I eveer saw one.
He leaves no question how it is defined , He says you will be murdered .
God didnt creat His people to be killed or to have a short tempory life, but it can and does still happen because some will not make Jesus LORD>
now when your talking "standard" how is that one from God?
it does bare reapeating Oak a thousand times until people understand how much God is into Justice, who is the one who killls steals and destroys our life and who decides If it going to happen.
this is the very cry of Jesus Christ and all of mankind. It is a choice God gives each person to live or die.
As far as who will recieve eternal life it is written in the bible. and quite clear. Abby if you have issues with christian doctrine one of the rules is the bible is to be used as an authority on this thread, then take it up with that.
unless the rules change to accomadate, posters at will.
Pond - Abi never said that she had a problem with Christian doctrine - only that she did not adhere to it (I'm assuming such - am I right Abi?)
Also, we can debate the big issue of salvation here for hours on end. BUT the thread wasn't about the "abortion" that occurs without Jesus. This thread is about the life that would become a baby - specifically.
I'm not sure that anyone is debating your points anymore - Now we would like to move on to other considerations.
Abby if you have issues with christian doctrine one of the rules is the bible is to be used as an authority on this thread, then take it up with that.
Pond, this thread is not a discussion about who does and does not get eternal life. This thread is about what the Bible says about abortion. Specifically defined, for the purpose of this thread, as a medical procedure used to end the life of an unborn baby.
I don't think I can agree that all women who have an abortion suffer deep emotional scars. I do believe that some women have abortions because they feel it is the most loving thing they can do for everyone involved, and they do this with no regrets.
I saw The Silent Scream many years ago, but really the only part I remember is the baby/fetus opening its mouth, and someone saying it was screaming. But I did find this on the web.
Patricia A. Jaworski has produced an audio tape, "Thinking About the Silent Scream," in which she interviews several internationally renowned neuroscientists on fetal brain development, the alleged fetal perception of "pain," and alleged fetal "personhood." Some of the highlights of those interviews are summarized in the following paragraphs.
Dr. Michael Bennett, chairman of the neuroscience department of Albert Einstein Medical School, when asked whether a brain exists at conception and whether there can be a person without a brain, answered with an unequivocal "no!" to both questions. It was pointed out that the human brain has approximately 100 billion brain cells and that there are an estimated 100 trillion connections between neurons in the brain. This extraordinary neuronal "interconnectivity" provides the neurostructural foundation for complex perceptions and "personhood" and takes many months and often years to fully develop and function.
Dr. Patricia Goldman-Rakic, professor of neuroscience at Yale University Medical School, emphasizes that brain neurons do not exist prior to four weeks in utero, that the peak period for brain neuron development is from two to five months in utero, and that the existence of neurons, per se, does not indicate the existence of a developed, functioning brain. Once the brain cell is born, there is a long process of migration of brain cells that occurs mainly from two to six months in utero during which the brain cells move (migrate) to their final destination in the brain. An even longer process of development makes possible the "interconnectivity" of brain cells which is absolutely essential for sensation, perception, conscious experience, thought, and behavior. The formation of brain synapses that make possible brain cell communication does not begin until about the third month in utero, and most are formed after birth.
Dr. Clifford Grobstein, former chairman of the Department of Biology at Stanford University and now at the University of California at San Diego, highlights the complexity of brain development by noting that the brain docs not develop uniformly. For example, certain parts of the brain develop earlier and some later. The cerebral neocortex that is responsible for complex perceptions is one of the last to develop.
Dr. Dominick Purpura, dean of Albert Einstein Medical School, has been studying human brain development since 1974 with his research on mental retardation. Dr. Purpura emphasizes that there are a minimum number of neurons and synaptic connections that are necessary before the qualities of "humanness" and "personhood" can be developed and that this capacity begins to occur in the middle of the last trimester. Thus, about twenty-eight to thirty weeks in utero is the minimal time for the beginning of this capacity—"It can't begin earlier," according to Dr. Purpura.
Dr. Purpura also emphasizes that critical changes are seen in the fetal brain wave pattern at thirty-one weeks when the brain waves become more organized and, thus, meuninglul; the first signs of sleep and wakefulness are not observed until a few weeks later. It is emphasized that all cells have electrical potentials and that the mere presence of such signals, per se, does not mean that the capacity for complex perceptions or "personhood" exists. How these neuronal signals become organized and reflect underlying neuronal and structural organization is fundamental to understanding the basic neurobiological pnnciple that structure precedes function.
I just through all that into the mix to get us thinking that maybe even if the case cannot be made that the fetus suffers or is a person, that God is equally concerned with the mother and the father.
I have talked to many women that had abortions because they felt it was the most loving thing they could do at the time. Nearly all of them have gone through a time of grieving and pondering what that child my be like "today."
I'm not saying that this is an across the board emotion - just a common one. I had a friend that was adopted because her biological mother was raped and put her up for adoption. She's happy that her mother made a different choice than what seemed the most obvious.
And BTW - I am not in favor of making abortion illegal. I just think that there is so much to consider. Still trying to find all the right questions.
What christian lives without Jesus as LORD? um none. as far as unbelievers well God's morals or laws or even the bible doesn't apply to them now does it? so what are you talking about do you even know? billions are born every day in this world and God hopes to the utterermost what that they get born that they die that they live well NO NO NO he wishs they get saved from this life!!! it is mankinds only hope , for eternal life. God made the birds have baby birds cats have quite a few kittens , elephants and rats and all kinds of beast make babies God doesnt promise them life eternal. I ate a chicken do ya think God cares that he was dead first?
God deals with what and who HE IS which is SPIRIT and he considers the flesh an enemy, wrong, sinful and not up to His dealing with all together. Hence the LORD!
So if i get in a accident or an illness and the pregnancy ends i killed a baby?
I do not think so. it is my body it is living off my body.
I am to die for something that can not live without my body? that is absurd.
life or death choices are left up to each person to decide for their own LIFE<<or DEATH now how can you twist that in any manner to say the same would not be the rule for any part of your body that can not live without it?
God gives us the Choice to live or Die and he isnt going to change that whether i have fifteen toes or a bad hip that needs to be replaced all of the medical procedures available today. they are not sin.
Our life is ONLY sanctified IF we accept Jesus as LORD! like Dot said with the fly she didnt murder it, it was killed and it no longer lives, but no crime has happened .
Even if you ever do decide a pregnancy is indeed a life in and of itself.. just because something dies doesnt mean anyone did anything wrong other than the author of DEATH satan. death happens everyday and God has to accept it and it is not an individuals sin it is the sin of all men.
satan has the authority to do it. the only thing people can do is accept Jesus christ as LORD and wait for His kingdom to come when death will no longer be around.
Jesus is not going to destroy people for dying, He is going to give them new life without troubles and ilness.he is going to destroy satan. and he isnt going to destroy Gods children for killing either or even murder or the Apostle Paul is out of luck and he talked endlessly of being with christ!!
Should you come across more information regarding brain development, neurons, synapses, etc. I would be very interested. I am doing some research on this topic in relation to ADHD and Bipolar disorder.
BACK ON TOPIC
Dooj, I have not seen the movie you mentioned earlier, but I would add I have a real issue with the way some pro-life people present their arguments and protest abortions - HOW they put their message out.
One day I was driving home from a doctor appointment with my two boys, who were then about 6 and 8 years old. On the corner at a very busy intersection there was a large group of pro-life protestors holding picture's of fetuses as they would appear in-utero and after being aborted. Some were very graphic and gory. Not images I wanted my young children exposed to. In addition, I can only imagine that such pictures would inflicted great pain upon someone who was already dealing with emotional difficulties resulting from an abortion.
Even if you ever do decide a pregnancy is indeed a life in and of itself.. just because something dies doesnt mean anyone did anything wrong other than the author of DEATH satan. death happens everyday and God has to accept it and it is not an individuals sin it is the sin of all men.
Do you mean to suggest that God would not hold someone accountable for their act of killing, because he just has to accept it as something satan has power over?
Should you come across more information regarding brain development, neurons, synapses, etc. I would be very interested. I am doing some research on this topic in relation to ADHD and Bipolar disorder.
BACK ON TOPIC
Dooj, I have not seen the movie you mentioned earlier, but I would add I have a real issue with the way some pro-life people present their arguments and protest abortions - HOW they put their message out.
One day I was driving home from a doctor appointment with my two boys, who were then about 6 and 8 years old. On the corner at a very busy intersection there was a large group of pro-life protestors holding picture's of fetuses as they would appear in-utero and after being aborted. Some were very graphic and gory. Not images I wanted my young children exposed to. In addition, I can only imagine that such pictures would inflicted great pain upon someone who was already dealing with emotional difficulties resulting from an abortion.
The "act of killing" is one thing murder is another.
are we held accoutable?
was the apostle Paul? for many many MURDers? he was held accoutable by making Jesus LORD and having a gift ministry that involves many books of the bible.
David had a man mudered so he could have sex with his wife and he was "held accoutable" but God did not revoke his fellwoship with HIM in any sense.
Jesus Christ forgives sin. it is His job.
killing isnt sin, murder is. We all sin and we will all be accoutable but until that day when Jesus does give out rewards and puinshments we live in alot of grace.
abortion is not murder by the law of our land , or by bible standards .
...abortion is not murder by the law of our land , or by bible standards.
Pond, how can you assert abortion is not murder according to Bible standards when YOU have NOT addressed what the Bible says about a fetus? What is the Biblical standard for murder or for being a human being? Why are you ignoring my post # 156 on Psalm 139:13-16? Why haven't YOU discussed any Scripture in reference to my questions below?
T-Bone post # 133
explore the Bible on topics that would have a direct bearing on the issue – perhaps asking:
When does a fetus become a human being?
What defines a human being? Or, what does it mean to be human?
What is the soul?
What is the image of God?
What is the relationship if any of the soul and/or image of God with a fetus?
And of course – in honoring Twinot's stipulation – Scriptural references should be used as the basis for the discussion.
killing isnt sin, murder is. We all sin and we will all be accoutable but until that day when Jesus does give out rewards and puinshments we live in alot of grace.
All killing isn't murder, even all taking of human life isn't murder if its part of God's judgement. The fact that there is forgiveness available for commiting the murder of sin, doesn't mean the sin shouldn't be avoided in the first place. Should we sin that grace may abound? God forbid.
Would you agree that after the child is born and takes its first breath that God would consider that killing murder and a sin to hold one accountable for?
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doojable
Pond, I'm not quite getting why you are being so antagonistic. My point was that just because abortion is legal does not force someone to choose abortion as an option. (I wasn't disagreeing with you or agreeing with you - it was a new point.) Actually you made my point with your illustration of Jesus being tempted and CHOOSING to not obey satan.
Also, lots of people here have acknowledged that the Bible doesn't use the word "Abortion." But the Bible does have a lot to say about the morality that might lead one to an abortion, as well as the question of death and the taking of a life.
And, correct me if I'm wrong Abi - but isn't Exodus referring to the judges in Israel and not just any old civil judge? If we are going to talk about the court system and compare it to Israel we might find ourselves comparing apples to oranges.
I'm just thinking in writing here. Sometimes we all need to just get the questions out in the open. The answers sometime come from just asking the right questions.
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Abigail
"And, correct me if I'm wrong Abi - but isn't Exodus referring to the judges in Israel and not just any old civil judge? "
Dooj, I suppose that would depend on one's POV. Certainly, many Christians today would see it as you stated above. The more orthodox Jews would tell you that it is the way Israel should be run today, smany would likely go so far as to say the whole world would be better off under the O.T. judicial system. Many conservative Jews might also agree with that, at least up to a point.
My personal POV is that the "how to BE a judge" part is very sound and would work for any civilization. As for the specific laws, I believe there is much to be learned from them and many would/should be applicable today. Others, I would not say that about, as our society and world has changed greatly since then. For example, what foods we can and cannot eat. It made sense in Biblical times, but in our day and time we are better able to preserve through refrigeration and we know more about cooking times and temperatures.
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Oakspear
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Abigail
I know this topic is supposed to be about what GOD says about abortion, but obviously we are having some degree of difficulty discerning that, at least some of us are. Others, perhaps are confident they have found the answer.
If no one minds too terribly, I'd like to add a bit more to the mix. Taking a life, in and of itself, isn't always wrong. I think we can all agree on that. We kill living plants to eat. We kill animals to eat. At times we are even justified in killing another person - i.e. self defense. I think many of us would even agree there may be rare occassions when an abortion is justified - to save the life of the mother.
So, what if we looked at soul/spirit and what sets humans apart from other living things. Perhaps there, we can dig up more information on this issue. Christians see one aspect of what sets us apart as being holy spirit. Jews see it as "free will", the ability to think, to chose, to discern good from evil.
I am also thinking about how the human brain works, so I guess I am wanting to toss in a bit of science to the mix. If there are objections I can start another thread, but it is something that has been on my mind the last few days.
The brain functions on electrical impulses. Doctors can open the skull of a living human, send electrical impulses to certain parts of the brain and generate responses without any thought or action on the part of the person. They can make a person move an arm or leg, feel a ticklish sensation on their feet, even hallucinate. So I am wonder, how is it that we control where those electrical impulses go - it is something beyond our mere thoughts, I think. Is it the soul/spirit that controls those electrical impulses? Would an understanding of that someone change our opinions on abortion?
Just thinking and wondering out loud, I guess.
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T-Bone
Great post, Abigail – that is what I brought up in an earlier post [see below] – and I don't have a problem with what science can add as long as we can keep things on track with any relative sub-threads – which [and I'm not trying to speak for everyone just trying to help nail down what we're looking for] at this point I think is something along the lines of when does God consider a fetus a person, a human being.
…And in wondering what God thinks of a fetus I thought of something from Psalm 139. Psalm 139 shows a very intimate relationship between the psalmist and his God. The portion I've quoted below offers a glimpse from inside the womb - from an unusual viewpoint - it is God's view of the unborn. I have put every one of the writer's personal references in bold red.
From The NET Bible, Psalm 139: 13-16:
13. Certainly you made my mind and heart; you wove me together in my mother's womb.
14. I will give you thanks because your deeds are awesome and amazing. You knew me thoroughly;
15. my bones were not hidden from you, when I was made in secret and sewed together in the depths of the earth.
16. Your eyes saw me when I was inside the womb. All the days ordained for me were recorded in your scroll before one of them came into existence.
When the writer speaks of himself in the womb – he refers to himself as a person – using personal pronouns "my, me, I." In addition, it appears that even in the earliest stages of the embryo God is some how intimately involved in human development. I am hard pressed to find a line of demarcation – a time before which the unborn is considered by God to be just an insignificant bunch of cells. And even if I would dare to pronounce a certain stage of growth as such – I think God's purpose for the individual - recorded BEFORE THEY EVEN CAME INTO EXISTENCE trumps my feeble attempt to dissect this awesome and mysterious work of wonder in the womb.
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waysider
Abi--------- I'm with you on throwing a little science in the mix. Sure we're trying to find out what GOD says on the issue but we are after all talking about a medical proceedure . What could it possibly hurt to further understand the science and medicine involved in the focal point of our discussion? If we know what we are seeking an answer to it may get us closer to understanding the answer.
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VeganXTC
I agree. My biggest concern is that this thread can turn into something completely different than what was intended. But I have seen other threads do that, and the off-topic part is pulled and turned into a new thread. So, I don't see any harm.
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doojable
I'm going to make one more point here for now. Even in the rare occasions where killing another human is justified, there is something that goes happens soul of the person that does the killing.
Self-defense, justifiable homicide, and what police and soldiers do (don't know the legal term for that - but it the possibility of taking a human life is part of the "job" for the latter two) all end up making such a mark on the person who pulls the trigger. Policemen and soldiers have to go through debreifing after afterwards. Certainly the aborting of a fetus/baby would leave a mark on the soul of the mother.
Its so easy to get into the rights and wrongs of "killing the unborn" and forget the living. Perhaps this is another question that bears asking....
Is it possible that God is just as concerned with the soul of the mother as with the life of the unborn. I'm not talking about salvation here. I'm referring to the deep emotional wounds that surface later in life after an abortion. No matter what spurs the decision, the pain of abortion comes back to bite the mother in the tushy.
Hopefully I have not derailed the thread. I am all for looking into the science behind all this.
There was a movie being shown in churches a while back called, "The Scream" It shows a ultra sensative ultrasound of a fetus being aborted. the fetus moves away from the needle several times. When it finally is stuck with the needle is appears to scream in utero. No sound - just visuals. If you have seen this movie I think your thoughts on this subject are valid.
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pond
moral you want a moral standard from God?
ok
God gives us a choice to CHOSE whether we abort our own life or recieve life eternal.
Death or life is up to each individual , God does not dictate what you will chose.
that is a moral standard if I eveer saw one.
He leaves no question how it is defined , He says you will be murdered .
God didnt creat His people to be killed or to have a short tempory life, but it can and does still happen because some will not make Jesus LORD>
now when your talking "standard" how is that one from God?
it does bare reapeating Oak a thousand times until people understand how much God is into Justice, who is the one who killls steals and destroys our life and who decides If it going to happen.
this is the very cry of Jesus Christ and all of mankind. It is a choice God gives each person to live or die.
As far as who will recieve eternal life it is written in the bible. and quite clear. Abby if you have issues with christian doctrine one of the rules is the bible is to be used as an authority on this thread, then take it up with that.
unless the rules change to accomadate, posters at will.
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doojable
Pond - Abi never said that she had a problem with Christian doctrine - only that she did not adhere to it (I'm assuming such - am I right Abi?)
Also, we can debate the big issue of salvation here for hours on end. BUT the thread wasn't about the "abortion" that occurs without Jesus. This thread is about the life that would become a baby - specifically.
I'm not sure that anyone is debating your points anymore - Now we would like to move on to other considerations.
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Abigail
Abby if you have issues with christian doctrine one of the rules is the bible is to be used as an authority on this thread, then take it up with that.
Pond, this thread is not a discussion about who does and does not get eternal life. This thread is about what the Bible says about abortion. Specifically defined, for the purpose of this thread, as a medical procedure used to end the life of an unborn baby.
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Abigail
Dooj, you make good points about the effects on the person who does the killing.
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Abigail
I thought this might be of interest to some (from HERE:
Jewish Publication Society Hebrew—English Tanakh.
If men fight, and they push a pregnant woman and she miscarries, but no other
injury (ason) occurs, the one responsible shall surely be fined, when the husband
of the woman shall assess, and he shall pay as the judges shall determine. But
if an injury (ason) does occur, then you shall award a life for a life, an eye for an
eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand for a hand, a foot for a foot, a burn for a burn,
a wound for a wound, a bruise for a bruise.
- Exodus 21 :22–25
The rabbinic framework pertaining to fetal existence was already largely
shaped by the time the Mishnah and midrashic texts came to be recorded
in the second and third centuries of the Common Era. In many ways, it
was a structure which served to enlarge and extend the plain meaning of
the Exodus text. The Tannaʾim, inheritors of the Eretz Yisrael approach, 1
simply continued the legal tradition that regarded the killing of the fetus
as a tort rather than a homicide. They did so, not just in circumstances
such as those depicted in Exodus 21 :22–23, but in every context that a
Jew might encounter.
Exodus 21 :22–25, which is thought
to date back to at least the ninth century BCE, 4 refers to spontaneous
abortion or miscarriage. Given that “[a]bortions were always available” in antiquity,
it is hardly plausible that this silence reflects ignorance of
such practices. Rather, this muteness may be due to the orientation of
the Israelite tradition, which consistently placed a great emphasis on
the mitzvah (commandment) of procreation. “Be fruitful and multiply”
(Genesis 1 :28) is the very first commandment of the Torah.
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VeganXTC
I don't think I can agree that all women who have an abortion suffer deep emotional scars. I do believe that some women have abortions because they feel it is the most loving thing they can do for everyone involved, and they do this with no regrets.
I saw The Silent Scream many years ago, but really the only part I remember is the baby/fetus opening its mouth, and someone saying it was screaming. But I did find this on the web.
Patricia A. Jaworski has produced an audio tape, "Thinking About the Silent Scream," in which she interviews several internationally renowned neuroscientists on fetal brain development, the alleged fetal perception of "pain," and alleged fetal "personhood." Some of the highlights of those interviews are summarized in the following paragraphs.
Dr. Michael Bennett, chairman of the neuroscience department of Albert Einstein Medical School, when asked whether a brain exists at conception and whether there can be a person without a brain, answered with an unequivocal "no!" to both questions. It was pointed out that the human brain has approximately 100 billion brain cells and that there are an estimated 100 trillion connections between neurons in the brain. This extraordinary neuronal "interconnectivity" provides the neurostructural foundation for complex perceptions and "personhood" and takes many months and often years to fully develop and function.
Dr. Patricia Goldman-Rakic, professor of neuroscience at Yale University Medical School, emphasizes that brain neurons do not exist prior to four weeks in utero, that the peak period for brain neuron development is from two to five months in utero, and that the existence of neurons, per se, does not indicate the existence of a developed, functioning brain. Once the brain cell is born, there is a long process of migration of brain cells that occurs mainly from two to six months in utero during which the brain cells move (migrate) to their final destination in the brain. An even longer process of development makes possible the "interconnectivity" of brain cells which is absolutely essential for sensation, perception, conscious experience, thought, and behavior. The formation of brain synapses that make possible brain cell communication does not begin until about the third month in utero, and most are formed after birth.
Dr. Clifford Grobstein, former chairman of the Department of Biology at Stanford University and now at the University of California at San Diego, highlights the complexity of brain development by noting that the brain docs not develop uniformly. For example, certain parts of the brain develop earlier and some later. The cerebral neocortex that is responsible for complex perceptions is one of the last to develop.
Dr. Dominick Purpura, dean of Albert Einstein Medical School, has been studying human brain development since 1974 with his research on mental retardation. Dr. Purpura emphasizes that there are a minimum number of neurons and synaptic connections that are necessary before the qualities of "humanness" and "personhood" can be developed and that this capacity begins to occur in the middle of the last trimester. Thus, about twenty-eight to thirty weeks in utero is the minimal time for the beginning of this capacity—"It can't begin earlier," according to Dr. Purpura.
Dr. Purpura also emphasizes that critical changes are seen in the fetal brain wave pattern at thirty-one weeks when the brain waves become more organized and, thus, meuninglul; the first signs of sleep and wakefulness are not observed until a few weeks later. It is emphasized that all cells have electrical potentials and that the mere presence of such signals, per se, does not mean that the capacity for complex perceptions or "personhood" exists. How these neuronal signals become organized and reflect underlying neuronal and structural organization is fundamental to understanding the basic neurobiological pnnciple that structure precedes function.
The complete article can be found here:
http://www.violence.de/prescott/humanist/abortion.html
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doojable
Thanks Vegan.
I just through all that into the mix to get us thinking that maybe even if the case cannot be made that the fetus suffers or is a person, that God is equally concerned with the mother and the father.
I have talked to many women that had abortions because they felt it was the most loving thing they could do at the time. Nearly all of them have gone through a time of grieving and pondering what that child my be like "today."
I'm not saying that this is an across the board emotion - just a common one. I had a friend that was adopted because her biological mother was raped and put her up for adoption. She's happy that her mother made a different choice than what seemed the most obvious.
And BTW - I am not in favor of making abortion illegal. I just think that there is so much to consider. Still trying to find all the right questions.
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pond
What christian lives without Jesus as LORD? um none. as far as unbelievers well God's morals or laws or even the bible doesn't apply to them now does it? so what are you talking about do you even know? billions are born every day in this world and God hopes to the utterermost what that they get born that they die that they live well NO NO NO he wishs they get saved from this life!!! it is mankinds only hope , for eternal life. God made the birds have baby birds cats have quite a few kittens , elephants and rats and all kinds of beast make babies God doesnt promise them life eternal. I ate a chicken do ya think God cares that he was dead first?
God deals with what and who HE IS which is SPIRIT and he considers the flesh an enemy, wrong, sinful and not up to His dealing with all together. Hence the LORD!
So if i get in a accident or an illness and the pregnancy ends i killed a baby?
I do not think so. it is my body it is living off my body.
I am to die for something that can not live without my body? that is absurd.
life or death choices are left up to each person to decide for their own LIFE<<or DEATH now how can you twist that in any manner to say the same would not be the rule for any part of your body that can not live without it?
God gives us the Choice to live or Die and he isnt going to change that whether i have fifteen toes or a bad hip that needs to be replaced all of the medical procedures available today. they are not sin.
Our life is ONLY sanctified IF we accept Jesus as LORD! like Dot said with the fly she didnt murder it, it was killed and it no longer lives, but no crime has happened .
Even if you ever do decide a pregnancy is indeed a life in and of itself.. just because something dies doesnt mean anyone did anything wrong other than the author of DEATH satan. death happens everyday and God has to accept it and it is not an individuals sin it is the sin of all men.
satan has the authority to do it. the only thing people can do is accept Jesus christ as LORD and wait for His kingdom to come when death will no longer be around.
Jesus is not going to destroy people for dying, He is going to give them new life without troubles and ilness.he is going to destroy satan. and he isnt going to destroy Gods children for killing either or even murder or the Apostle Paul is out of luck and he talked endlessly of being with christ!!
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Abigail
Very interesting stuff, Vegan!!!!
BACK ON TOPIC
Dooj, I have not seen the movie you mentioned earlier, but I would add I have a real issue with the way some pro-life people present their arguments and protest abortions - HOW they put their message out.
One day I was driving home from a doctor appointment with my two boys, who were then about 6 and 8 years old. On the corner at a very busy intersection there was a large group of pro-life protestors holding picture's of fetuses as they would appear in-utero and after being aborted. Some were very graphic and gory. Not images I wanted my young children exposed to. In addition, I can only imagine that such pictures would inflicted great pain upon someone who was already dealing with emotional difficulties resulting from an abortion.
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DrtyDzn
As long as the graphic pictures were held up out of Love,
Jerry
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DrtyDzn
Do you mean to suggest that God would not hold someone accountable for their act of killing, because he just has to accept it as something satan has power over?
Jerry
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doojable
ABI I agree entirely!
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pond
The "act of killing" is one thing murder is another.
are we held accoutable?
was the apostle Paul? for many many MURDers? he was held accoutable by making Jesus LORD and having a gift ministry that involves many books of the bible.
David had a man mudered so he could have sex with his wife and he was "held accoutable" but God did not revoke his fellwoship with HIM in any sense.
Jesus Christ forgives sin. it is His job.
killing isnt sin, murder is. We all sin and we will all be accoutable but until that day when Jesus does give out rewards and puinshments we live in alot of grace.
abortion is not murder by the law of our land , or by bible standards .
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T-Bone
Pond, how can you assert abortion is not murder according to Bible standards when YOU have NOT addressed what the Bible says about a fetus? What is the Biblical standard for murder or for being a human being? Why are you ignoring my post # 156 on Psalm 139:13-16? Why haven't YOU discussed any Scripture in reference to my questions below?
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doojable
He's got you there, Pond.
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DrtyDzn
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