...the excerp in no way addresses whether God judges an abortion to be wrong or murder.
I'm a little confused by your statement. Are you referring to my excerpt from Christian Theology? I thought the author was very clear in addressing the issue head on - by referring to Cottrell's interpretation of Exodus 21 as proof that God thought any injury to the child was wrong and should be handled according to the Law. The worst case scenario being the death of the child - which would deem the penalty "life for a life" appropriate.
The NET Bible translators handle Exodus 21: 22-25 similarly to Cottrell's suggestion – which I will cite here along with an excerpt of a note on verse 22:
Exodus 21:
22. And if men fight and hit a pregnant woman and her child is born prematurely, but there is no serious injury, he will surely be punished in accordance with what the woman's husband will put on him, and he will pay what the court decides.
23. But if there is serious injury, then you will give a life for a life,
24. eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25. burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
Verse 22, translator's note: "This line has occasioned a good deal of discussion. It may indicate that the child was killed, as in a miscarriage; or it may mean that there was a premature birth. The latter view is taken here because of the way the whole section is written: (1) "her children come out" reflects a birth and not a loss of children, (2) there is no serious damage, and (3) payment is to be set for any remuneration…"
Also The Interlinear Bible: Hebrew-Greek-English, general editor and translator Jay Green translates Exodus 21:22-25 according to this same viewpoint:
22. And when men fight, and they strike a pregnant woman, and her child goes forth, and there is no injury, surely he shall be fined. As much as the husband of the woman shall put on him, even he shall give through the judges.
23. But if injury occurs, you shall give life for life,
24. eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25. branding for branding, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
What amazes me is how Exodus 21:22, 23 almost always were referred to when teaching about abortion, no matter which side you are on. I always wondered why the mischief couldn't mean harm to the woman.
Good night, we've all heard stories about women dying while giving birth in normal circumstances, can you imagine a woman giving birth with men fighting around her? In Biblical times? And can you imagine the blow it would take for a woman to give birth prematurely?When I was pregnant, I sure was clumsy, but I didn't lose either of my children. The fetus/baby is very well protected in utero. So the fight surely was much bigger than a couple of guys duking it out. If there was NO harm to the woman, I would be surprised.
Thanks, T-Bone for posting that exerpt from Christian Theology. This is the first time I have ever heard a Christian Theologian ever address the mother.
the court has decided abortion causes NO harm to anyone at this point.
this is NOT in Gods judgement. It is up to the courts to decide how we deal with one another and harm to be done.
God is setting a standard on how to address these issues.
At this time it is not illegal to have an abortion.
If we allow the courts to consider a preganacy a life, then by this standard we could kill a mother that has had a miscarriage!!
This is considering a CRIME at this juncture abortion is not a crime. it is a choice not an infliction...
If a man does kill an unborn child or both die by our standard today YES they can and have been charged with murder. That is a crime against a mother.. this has not changed since that was written. and YES murder can be charged for the unborn a baby.
but the choice of abortion is NOT addressed here. Nor is it consdiered a crime in our "COURTS" which is how it says to determine the issue.
The bible doesnt "deem' a preganacy a "life" at all, it in this passage is addressing the issue of a crime "determined by the courts and how to handle them.
No where in this scripture does it say God considers a pregnacy "life". i love that slippery word there "deem" . um where exactly hmm? it really doesnt at all. If that type of power was given to a preganacy then all miscarriages would be considered murder . If a mother tooik drugs that harmed a fetus it would be considered a crime and it isnt .
this is all about crime and punishment nothing what so ever to do with how God determines what is MURDER or not .
for example:
I slap my own self across the face ten times, no crime has been done, YOU come to me and slap me one time and you could be punished.
just because something dies doesnt mean it was murdered.
Oooo Pond! I sooo agree with you! These verses (Exodus 21:22-25) tell us nothing about abortion, only what the punishment should be for men fighting, and causing harm.
I'm a little confused by your statement. Are you referring to my excerpt from Christian Theology? I thought the author was very clear in addressing the issue head on
Here is the conclusion from the exerpt:
At the very least, then, the idea that the passage does not treat the fetus as fully human has been rendered highly questionable. Yet we cannot say that the passage conclusively establishes the humanity of the unborn.
The problem is that the penalty of life for life could be talking about the mother's life or the life of a child who has been born, not conclusively about the life of a fetus. We just don't know from this verse. So it can't be applied to abortion.
What amazes me is how Exodus 21:22, 23 almost always were referred to when teaching about abortion, no matter which side you are on. I always wondered why the mischief couldn't mean harm to the woman.
Good night, we've all heard stories about women dying while giving birth in normal circumstances, can you imagine a woman giving birth with men fighting around her? In Biblical times? And can you imagine the blow it would take for a woman to give birth prematurely?When I was pregnant, I sure was clumsy, but I didn't lose either of my children. The fetus/baby is very well protected in utero. So the fight surely was much bigger than a couple of guys duking it out. If there was NO harm to the woman, I would be surprised…
…Those are good points, Vegan – the verse doesn't specify who is harmed. I am curious though why a pregnant woman is mentioned here. Yes, the baby is well protected in the womb – but there is such a thing as serious bodily trauma to the mother inducing labor.
Pond
the court has decided abortion causes NO harm to anyone at this point.
this is NOT in Gods judgement. It is up to the courts to decide how we deal with one another and harm to be done.
God is setting a standard on how to address these issues.
At this time it is not illegal to have an abortion.
…Yes, God has set a moral standard in the Bible – and in this particular passage He also sets a standard of remuneration for violations of His moral standard.
Pond
If we allow the courts to consider a preganacy a life, then by this standard we could kill a mother that has had a miscarriage!!
…I fail to see your logic here. Why would our justice system condemn a woman to death because through no fault of her own she miscarried? Do you mean she intentionally aborted her baby?
Pond
This is considering a CRIME at this juncture abortion is not a crime. it is a choice not an infliction...
If a man does kill an unborn child or both die by our standard today YES they can and have been charged with murder. That is a crime against a mother.. this has not changed since that was written. and YES murder can be charged for the unborn a baby.
but the choice of abortion is NOT addressed here. Nor is it consdiered a crime in our "COURTS" which is how it says to determine the issue.
The bible doesnt "deem' a preganacy a "life" at all, it in this passage is addressing the issue of a crime "determined by the courts and how to handle them.
…As I said above the moral and remuneration standards that God had written determine how Israel was to handle issues. Israel's legal system was there – not to determine or write law – but to uphold God's law. A note in The MacArthur Study Bible on Exodus 21:22 explains compensation and the role of their legal system, "Compensation was mandatory for accidentally causing a premature birth, even if no injury resulted to either mother or child. Judges were brought into the legal process so that damages awarded were fair and were not calculated out of vengeance."
Pond
No where in this scripture does it say God considers a pregnacy "life". i love that slippery word there "deem" . um where exactly hmm? it really doesnt at all. If that type of power was given to a preganacy then all miscarriages would be considered murder . If a mother tooik drugs that harmed a fetus it would be considered a crime and it isnt .
this is all about crime and punishment nothing what so ever to do with how God determines what is MURDER or not .
…I beg to differ with you saying there is an absence of Scripture that indicates the babe in the womb is a human life. There have been quite a few Scriptural references on this thread that acknowledge the fetus as a real person – one of them was in my post # 95 Psalm 139:13- 17. What is missing from Scripture is a definitive statement in our modern terminology that would say "Abortion is wrong – it is murdering another human being."
Yes, the passage is about crime and punishment. The punishment should fit the crime. That is supposed to be a part of our own judicial system as well. Exodus 21:22-25 covers even the worst case scenario of this situation – an accidental death [of either the mother or child]. Which if anyone in the case had direct responsibility in that is charged with a crime and dealt with according to God's law – which says "life for a life." Now – abortion – and I assume we've been talking about the DELIBERATE termination of the embryo or fetus – is something different than what Exodus 21:22-25 is dealing with [the Exodus passage covers an accidental death]. One of the Ten Commandments forbids the deliberate murdering of another human being. So it comes down to what you think of the fetus in the mother's womb.
Pond, do you think the baby in the womb is a human being – a living person?
Clearly the records says we are to allow the Courts to decide, did ya read it?
no no moral law God clearly states in the bible we are to obey the LAW in our land as all of HIS people have throughout ages. many many records of dealing with the politcal environment of the day and times testify of that FACT!
God says we are to obey the laws of the land UNLESS He has clearly placed another above it, and in which case it is sin and sin is not dealt with by God by killing us because of what Jesus has done already . thank you Jesus.
and He has not in the case of abortioneven said it is murder . the end of "life" is not neccesarily a killing or murder. In fact it happens on a regular bases everyday.
murder is defined in a different manner all together today and in bible times. God saved Noah and many died. ended the life whatever way you want to say it.. clearly many volumes of the example,the two year old babys that died later in this same book DIED.
they died because they chose not to obey God. The killer is our enemy satan.
Death is the enemy in and of itself by Gods standard, to define whether murderor any crime is involved is decided by the COURTS !! did ya read it|?
at this point our courts have decided abortion is NOT illegal in any way.
it is no more wrong in Gods eye than if a person dies of old age.
God is life that is why He has a plan for us not to worry about death but we are not in that kingdom YET and until we live in a place without an enemy, death is something we must deal with. clearly this verse says let your courts decide how the crimes should be dealt with.
this idea of this higher moral law is crap , Jesus is building a community here and now of believers and we decide how we punish one another for crimes.
abortion is not a crime in our country. Nor does God address it in these verses.
In our country we have at times had a "draft law" which forces all men 18 years and older to go into the service of protection for our country or another, our president can put this law into effect at any time, these soldiers must end the life of other people sometimes whole villages and towns would be bombed and many "innocent people, babies and children and women not considered our enemy at all would die.
T-Bone
are these men KILLERS or murders? America considers them heros. The many battles in the bible speak of the battles we have over life and death.
I do not want to go off topic but verse eye for an eye and many others clearly shows God endorses the death penalty .
Just because a specific English word is not used in an English translation of the bible doesn't mean that the concept did not exist in biblical times. Non-surgical methods of abortion have been known since early times.
The bible would be a much bigger book than it is already if every single specific situation had to be covered in "legal" detail.
I believe that to participate in a discussion like this, one has to at least operate under the assumption that the bible is divinely inspired and contains everything that pertains to life and godliness, otherwise we could have a thread that is titled "What do you think about abortion?"
The verse in says to leave it in the courts, not me. Stop twisting words and insulting becuase you cant refute that fact. nO "flat opinon" it is in the DOCTRINE of the verse. read it again and call yourself a liar or full of ignorance
I never once said i do not trust the bible .
many people think they know what the bible may say which one is correct is the issue, not the bible itself.
the bible is a scope of who God is to His people one verse hardly stands alone.
this thread doesnt disturb me at all im loving it.
If what I write distrub you WW then you can always skip the thread or the entire forum, I often ignore posters who think they have to control and twist what other posters say.
Just because a specific English word is not used in an English translation of the bible doesn't mean that the concept did not exist in biblical times. Non-surgical methods of abortion have been known since early times.
The bible would be a much bigger book than it is already if every single specific situation had to be covered in "legal" detail.
I believe that to participate in a discussion like this, one has to at least operate under the assumption that the bible is divinely inspired and contains everything that pertains to life and godliness, otherwise we could have a thread that is titled "What do you think about abortion?"
In the very last book of the bible JOHN says the exact same thing that if all that happened with Jesus alone the world would not be large enough to hold the volumes !
indeed. I happen to agree with you Oak abortion was probably happpening then as well.
I believe the bible is divine .. and I will take your comment one step further If we run on assumptions the thread could be titled which assumption is correct?
I think the fact God says to allow the courts to decide speaks clearly ,he has always been kind to His people and His people have always had to live within the political environment they chose or are enslaved in at the time. which ever the case may be.
I find this funny God says DEATH is the ENEMY , an abortion is a death, God considers it an enemy.
how can that be anymore clear? Is it sin? hello sin? death is yep we can conclude is sin.
Death is wrong. but alas it happens quite alot. Lets out law death ! God has already, but it didnt work becuase people do not obey him hence a Saviour and grace etc.
Now abortion He says to leave up to the courts to decide if a wrong is done. and that is only if you ASSUME this is even to be an abortion. It sounds more of a crime and puinshment situation to me.
If i slap myself I cause no harm if another slaps me it could be punished, God is dealing with how we are to live in comunity with one another in this chapter clearly.
Stop twisting words and insulting becuase you cant refute that fact.
(snip)
read it again and call yourself a liar or full of ignorance
Now that's hardly posting with kindness. <_<
The following is from the front page of the forums:
"please be courteous to fellow posters. Disagree all you want, but respect the fact that someone else may feel as strongly about their ideas as you do about your own. Please don't make it personal. A lively discussions of ideas is both more polite and more relevant."
I never once said i do not trust the bible .
pond, this thread, Sept 8, 2006, 6:26pm Eastern.
Word wolf
i realize you try to put the thread together in a concise way .. but you know the bible is a crazy book for example it says an foot could talk to a man when he was being wipped!
so now i can know for sure if i beat my horse it will complain to me about the pain i inflicted?
Now,
many people would consider this a vote of no-confidence, since it calls
"the Bible a crazy book", and implies the Bible guarantees that EVERY beating of a
horse will result in it talking to the hitter.
If that's not what you meant, then you might consider the message you sent.
...I think the fact God says to allow the courts to decide speaks clearly... Now abortion He says to leave up to the courts to decide if a wrong is done. and that is only if you ASSUME this is even to be an abortion. It sounds more of a crime and puinshment situation to me...
I don't see where you get the idea that God left it up to the courts to decide Israel's moral and legal issues such as the one in Exodus 21. Can you provide Scriptural evidence to back up your claim?
twisted again ww I said the bible is crazy which means to say full of wild and crazy accounts or happenings meaning in the sense of entertaining and funny and many such adverbs can apply.
I was refuting YOUR IMPLICATION with this as an example WW reread the thread and stop trying to make it different than what it is.
You IMPLIED one verse applies to all situations in the bible and I gave you this as a example of how that is not true at all.
T-bone oh for Gods sake read the first line of the VERY verse. lol
WW says it is all about Doctrine! read it and weep then .
The bible is FULL of statement of how we are to obey the Political situation s and courts of the day T-Bone.
In fact that is what the bible is how God rescues His people over and over from the circumstance at large. Do you even read it?
Gods people live in communities with real lifes and that is what the bible is about.
always have always will.
The name of this book is titled What? EXODUS!!!!
Gee golly what does that mean?? hmmm it is the account of God delivery His people from the slavery of the time they had gotten into because of the political powers that held them for many years!!!!
Gee then we have a few hundred verses about how God dealt with the Rulers and kings and Pharaohs and taskmasters of the day and time to let his people go. God must always deal with the politcal environment of the people.
How did they crucify JESUS???? IN the court, the people decided to let a murderer caught in the act to go free and to crucify Jesus Christ. on and on that is what the entire bible is about!
The thing we must remember a child is not a living creature until it takes his/her first breath. While Abortion may be morally wrong let us look into the facts. We are in the Age of Grace, not the Age of the Law. The Law times were very strict to laws and customs of the time. While in the Age of Grace we can take the Lord's name in vain, we can curse, etc. The only thing that will stop this is the Return of Christ when he will be King and Lord. Then there will be no more death. Death goes into the lake of fire, but I am getting of subject here. Abortion is not killing unless the child is alive first. For example you are pregnant and you have your baby and you don't want you child and you throw the child in a dumpster. This is murder or at the least Child Endangerment(if the child lives). Now let us flip the coin the child is a cell in the mother, and the doctor kills it. This would be the same as if you found anthrax and decided to destroy it all. Some could make the argument that the cell was alive. This of course is my opinion, so in my final statement today I will say I think abortion is morally wrong but it should come down to what the woman wants. The court should have nothing to do with it, they are just interfering in private matters.
I don't see where you get the idea that God left it up to the courts to decide Israel's moral and legal issues such as the one in Exodus 21. Can you provide Scriptural evidence to back up your claim?
Pond
T-bone oh for Gods sake read the first line of the VERY verse. lol
…As I noted in my post # 107 the Judges were brought into the legal process so that damages awarded were fair and were not calculated out of vengeance. From the verse you're referring to [which I had cited below from two different versions] it appears to me the decision the judges/court deliberated over was the amount of compensation to be awarded in a personal injury case.
Exodus 21: 22. When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. [RSV]
Exodus 21: 22. And if men fight and hit a pregnant woman and her child is born prematurely, but there is no serious injury, he will surely be punished in accordance with what the woman's husband will put on him, and he will pay what the court decides. [NET]
Pond
Now abortion He says to leave up to the courts to decide if a wrong is done. and that is only if you ASSUME this is even to be an abortion. It sounds more of a crime and puinshment situation to me.
…Maybe you can clarify something for me. I originally thought you were saying that Israel's court system arbitrarily decided IF an instance of personal injury was wrong. In other words – implying that Israel's court system set their own moral and legal standards. Is that what you are saying?
It appears to me the moral and legal standards for Israel were already in place here – set up by God. Perhaps we are arguing over a misunderstanding between us. I agree that Israel's courts would be responsible to review the particulars of a personal injury case and much like any honorable court would review evidence/witnesses and see if a violation of their already established law had occurred. And if so, they would also deliberate over compensation to the victim/punishment to the perpetrator – again using their already established law ["eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth"].
I have not been trying to use this passage to prove abortion is wrong – and by abortion I mean the deliberate – intentional termination of a pregnancy. My point in using the Exodus passage was to show how God's law dealt with personal injury of a pregnant woman – and in a worst case scenario of death to either or both mother/child. It appears to me the whole situation specified in this passage is over accidental injury or death to either [the mishap occurred during men fighting]. This passage DOES NOT address the deliberate killing of another person. But it does show God's care and concern for human life.
I agree T-bone. I think God is trying to help the people who have been held captive for many years in a god less environemnt how to properly have a community that will work within his scope of loving one another and HIM.
Romans 13 covers the authority of our civil govt and our attitude towards such.
It appears that the judges decide not whether a wrong has been done, but how much the transgressor will be fined. It also appears that the verse is talking about an accidental miscarriage due to violence that ended up involving the mother.
I don't know that you can read much into the difference in penalty between an accidental miscarriage and an intentional killing, since there are different penalties for killing a slave as well.
The thing we must remember a child is not a living creature until it takes his/her first breath. While Abortion may be morally wrong let us look into the facts.
Welcome to the forum Greg.
Please consider the possibility that there can be soul life present without breath life.
Luke 1:44
"For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy."
How can a 6mos. old fetus leap for joy if it doesn't have a soul life already before taking its first breath?
The thing we must remember a child is not a living creature until it takes his/her first breath.
Well, that's what we learned in TWI, that's for sure.
There has been a case made that a fetus is a baby from at least 6 months. Certainly Adam became "a living soul" when "God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life", but does this mean that those of us who are born the regular way aren't really alive until we breathe?
I would suggest going back and reading some of the arguments made in this thread and seeing what you think. If you disagree, please present your case.
While Abortion may be morally wrong let us look into the facts. We are in the Age of Grace, not the Age of the Law.
You might find that there is a disagreement about even that
Abortion is not killing unless the child is alive first.
And that is one of the things that we are attempting to establish here.
Now let us flip the coin the child is a cell in the mother, and the doctor kills it. This would be the same as if you found anthrax and decided to destroy it all. Some could make the argument that the cell was alive.
Of course that's a fine illustration, but the idea that it illustrates hasn't been established.
This of course is my opinion, so in my final statement today I will say I think abortion is morally wrong but it should come down to what the woman wants. The court should have nothing to do with it, they are just interfering in private matters.
Greg
Thanks for your opinion. Now....what's God's opinion? Edited by Oakspear
Well, that's what we learned in TWI, that's for sure.
There has been a case made that a fetus is a baby from at least 6 months. Certainly Adam became "a living soul" when "God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life", but does this mean that those of us who are born the regular way aren't really alive until we breathe?
I would suggest going back and reading some of the arguments made in this thread and seeing what you think. If you disagree, please present your case....
I put flea treatment on my cats. i think it worked
do ya think they will arrest me?
death is not neccesarily murder or killing. it is death and a whole another ball of wax.
It is the enemy of God. His creation is not.
God has not breath or "soul" . how he deals with circumstances is as big as this book and life its self. God is love and God is righteous. God deals with what He is which is a HOLY Spirit .
Jesu christ has a victory over death , to be played out in the final round and in the kingdom. Untill then sin will reign and that includes death.
just because something dies doesnt mean it is murdered or any crime has been comminted.
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T-Bone
I'm a little confused by your statement. Are you referring to my excerpt from Christian Theology? I thought the author was very clear in addressing the issue head on - by referring to Cottrell's interpretation of Exodus 21 as proof that God thought any injury to the child was wrong and should be handled according to the Law. The worst case scenario being the death of the child - which would deem the penalty "life for a life" appropriate.
The NET Bible translators handle Exodus 21: 22-25 similarly to Cottrell's suggestion – which I will cite here along with an excerpt of a note on verse 22:
Exodus 21:
22. And if men fight and hit a pregnant woman and her child is born prematurely, but there is no serious injury, he will surely be punished in accordance with what the woman's husband will put on him, and he will pay what the court decides.
23. But if there is serious injury, then you will give a life for a life,
24. eye for an eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25. burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
Verse 22, translator's note: "This line has occasioned a good deal of discussion. It may indicate that the child was killed, as in a miscarriage; or it may mean that there was a premature birth. The latter view is taken here because of the way the whole section is written: (1) "her children come out" reflects a birth and not a loss of children, (2) there is no serious damage, and (3) payment is to be set for any remuneration…"
Also The Interlinear Bible: Hebrew-Greek-English, general editor and translator Jay Green translates Exodus 21:22-25 according to this same viewpoint:
22. And when men fight, and they strike a pregnant woman, and her child goes forth, and there is no injury, surely he shall be fined. As much as the husband of the woman shall put on him, even he shall give through the judges.
23. But if injury occurs, you shall give life for life,
24. eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25. branding for branding, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
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VeganXTC
What amazes me is how Exodus 21:22, 23 almost always were referred to when teaching about abortion, no matter which side you are on. I always wondered why the mischief couldn't mean harm to the woman.
Good night, we've all heard stories about women dying while giving birth in normal circumstances, can you imagine a woman giving birth with men fighting around her? In Biblical times? And can you imagine the blow it would take for a woman to give birth prematurely?When I was pregnant, I sure was clumsy, but I didn't lose either of my children. The fetus/baby is very well protected in utero. So the fight surely was much bigger than a couple of guys duking it out. If there was NO harm to the woman, I would be surprised.
Thanks, T-Bone for posting that exerpt from Christian Theology. This is the first time I have ever heard a Christian Theologian ever address the mother.
Sorry that this is off topic!
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pond
the court has decided abortion causes NO harm to anyone at this point.
this is NOT in Gods judgement. It is up to the courts to decide how we deal with one another and harm to be done.
God is setting a standard on how to address these issues.
At this time it is not illegal to have an abortion.
If we allow the courts to consider a preganacy a life, then by this standard we could kill a mother that has had a miscarriage!!
This is considering a CRIME at this juncture abortion is not a crime. it is a choice not an infliction...
If a man does kill an unborn child or both die by our standard today YES they can and have been charged with murder. That is a crime against a mother.. this has not changed since that was written. and YES murder can be charged for the unborn a baby.
but the choice of abortion is NOT addressed here. Nor is it consdiered a crime in our "COURTS" which is how it says to determine the issue.
The bible doesnt "deem' a preganacy a "life" at all, it in this passage is addressing the issue of a crime "determined by the courts and how to handle them.
No where in this scripture does it say God considers a pregnacy "life". i love that slippery word there "deem" . um where exactly hmm? it really doesnt at all. If that type of power was given to a preganacy then all miscarriages would be considered murder . If a mother tooik drugs that harmed a fetus it would be considered a crime and it isnt .
this is all about crime and punishment nothing what so ever to do with how God determines what is MURDER or not .
for example:
I slap my own self across the face ten times, no crime has been done, YOU come to me and slap me one time and you could be punished.
just because something dies doesnt mean it was murdered.
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VeganXTC
Oooo Pond! I sooo agree with you! These verses (Exodus 21:22-25) tell us nothing about abortion, only what the punishment should be for men fighting, and causing harm.
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DrtyDzn
The problem is that the penalty of life for life could be talking about the mother's life or the life of a child who has been born, not conclusively about the life of a fetus. We just don't know from this verse. So it can't be applied to abortion.
Jerry
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T-Bone
…Those are good points, Vegan – the verse doesn't specify who is harmed. I am curious though why a pregnant woman is mentioned here. Yes, the baby is well protected in the womb – but there is such a thing as serious bodily trauma to the mother inducing labor.
…Yes, God has set a moral standard in the Bible – and in this particular passage He also sets a standard of remuneration for violations of His moral standard.
…I fail to see your logic here. Why would our justice system condemn a woman to death because through no fault of her own she miscarried? Do you mean she intentionally aborted her baby?
…As I said above the moral and remuneration standards that God had written determine how Israel was to handle issues. Israel's legal system was there – not to determine or write law – but to uphold God's law. A note in The MacArthur Study Bible on Exodus 21:22 explains compensation and the role of their legal system, "Compensation was mandatory for accidentally causing a premature birth, even if no injury resulted to either mother or child. Judges were brought into the legal process so that damages awarded were fair and were not calculated out of vengeance."
…I beg to differ with you saying there is an absence of Scripture that indicates the babe in the womb is a human life. There have been quite a few Scriptural references on this thread that acknowledge the fetus as a real person – one of them was in my post # 95 Psalm 139:13- 17. What is missing from Scripture is a definitive statement in our modern terminology that would say "Abortion is wrong – it is murdering another human being."
Yes, the passage is about crime and punishment. The punishment should fit the crime. That is supposed to be a part of our own judicial system as well. Exodus 21:22-25 covers even the worst case scenario of this situation – an accidental death [of either the mother or child]. Which if anyone in the case had direct responsibility in that is charged with a crime and dealt with according to God's law – which says "life for a life." Now – abortion – and I assume we've been talking about the DELIBERATE termination of the embryo or fetus – is something different than what Exodus 21:22-25 is dealing with [the Exodus passage covers an accidental death]. One of the Ten Commandments forbids the deliberate murdering of another human being. So it comes down to what you think of the fetus in the mother's womb.
Pond, do you think the baby in the womb is a human being – a living person?
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pond
Clearly the records says we are to allow the Courts to decide, did ya read it?
no no moral law God clearly states in the bible we are to obey the LAW in our land as all of HIS people have throughout ages. many many records of dealing with the politcal environment of the day and times testify of that FACT!
God says we are to obey the laws of the land UNLESS He has clearly placed another above it, and in which case it is sin and sin is not dealt with by God by killing us because of what Jesus has done already . thank you Jesus.
and He has not in the case of abortioneven said it is murder . the end of "life" is not neccesarily a killing or murder. In fact it happens on a regular bases everyday.
murder is defined in a different manner all together today and in bible times. God saved Noah and many died. ended the life whatever way you want to say it.. clearly many volumes of the example,the two year old babys that died later in this same book DIED.
they died because they chose not to obey God. The killer is our enemy satan.
Death is the enemy in and of itself by Gods standard, to define whether murderor any crime is involved is decided by the COURTS !! did ya read it|?
at this point our courts have decided abortion is NOT illegal in any way.
it is no more wrong in Gods eye than if a person dies of old age.
God is life that is why He has a plan for us not to worry about death but we are not in that kingdom YET and until we live in a place without an enemy, death is something we must deal with. clearly this verse says let your courts decide how the crimes should be dealt with.
this idea of this higher moral law is crap , Jesus is building a community here and now of believers and we decide how we punish one another for crimes.
abortion is not a crime in our country. Nor does God address it in these verses.
In our country we have at times had a "draft law" which forces all men 18 years and older to go into the service of protection for our country or another, our president can put this law into effect at any time, these soldiers must end the life of other people sometimes whole villages and towns would be bombed and many "innocent people, babies and children and women not considered our enemy at all would die.
T-Bone
are these men KILLERS or murders? America considers them heros. The many battles in the bible speak of the battles we have over life and death.
I do not want to go off topic but verse eye for an eye and many others clearly shows God endorses the death penalty .
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WordWolf
pond,
I question whether or not we can get somewhere substantial in this discussion
if you're going to keep "banging the drum."
I mean, having a strong opinion is fine. Having a closed mind on the subject
is technically acceptable. However, having decided that, your ability to
CONTRIBUTE to the discussion is therefore limited.
I mean, once you've posted once
"I don't trust the Bible" (a point you already made with me),
"I don't think the Bible addresses this at all" (which means the rest of the
discussion is on us to demonstrate otherwise, you're excused until we
can demonstrate it)
"I don't think it's ever murder" (which we haven't gotten to yet, really)
and
"I think it should be up to the courts (which is a flat statement of opinion),
then everything else is either restatements of same at best,
or-at worst- distractions from the rest of the discussion.
We're TRYING to discuss what the Bible CAN tell us on this subject.
The essence of the discussion, then, rests on 2 things:
A) what does the Bible say about when a fetus is considered a human?
B) what does the Bible say about punishments for ending a fetus?
Those are technically 2 different issues.
We've seen some interesting things on both issues so far,
but the interruptions we've seen to both have been making it difficult to make
sizeable progress.
I mean, you don't have to believe the Bible at all, nor respect it,
but can you at least respect US enough to allow us to discuss our opinions of
the Bible? That is EXACTLY what this thread is about, and that's why it's
in the DOCTRINAL forum. We're discussing DOCTRINE.
If this thread disturbs you, you can always skip the thread, or skip the
entire FORUM. (I skip threads when I think they don't benefit me.)
Is it really a lot to ask, to allow us to simply proceed on-topic and see where
the search leads us?
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Oakspear
Just because a specific English word is not used in an English translation of the bible doesn't mean that the concept did not exist in biblical times. Non-surgical methods of abortion have been known since early times.
The bible would be a much bigger book than it is already if every single specific situation had to be covered in "legal" detail.
I believe that to participate in a discussion like this, one has to at least operate under the assumption that the bible is divinely inspired and contains everything that pertains to life and godliness, otherwise we could have a thread that is titled "What do you think about abortion?"
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VeganXTC
I don't feel that supressing someone's voice is respectful.
Are there guidelines that everyone needs to follow? Do we need certain a majority of people on this thread to continue with the subject?
Pond does contribute greatly to this thread. Maybe not in a chronological order, but she does bring up doctrinal points.
It was Pond who cause me to consider what Exodus 21:22-25 was really trying to teach, and maybe these verses have no place in a thread about abortion.
I learn from Pond, and I learn from WordWolf, and I learn from all posters here. I think we all are valid, and should have a voice.
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pond
did ya read the verse?
The verse in says to leave it in the courts, not me. Stop twisting words and insulting becuase you cant refute that fact. nO "flat opinon" it is in the DOCTRINE of the verse. read it again and call yourself a liar or full of ignorance
I never once said i do not trust the bible .
many people think they know what the bible may say which one is correct is the issue, not the bible itself.
the bible is a scope of who God is to His people one verse hardly stands alone.
this thread doesnt disturb me at all im loving it.
If what I write distrub you WW then you can always skip the thread or the entire forum, I often ignore posters who think they have to control and twist what other posters say.
I am on topic.
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Galen
pond-
good posts.
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pond
In the very last book of the bible JOHN says the exact same thing that if all that happened with Jesus alone the world would not be large enough to hold the volumes !
indeed. I happen to agree with you Oak abortion was probably happpening then as well.
I believe the bible is divine .. and I will take your comment one step further If we run on assumptions the thread could be titled which assumption is correct?
I think the fact God says to allow the courts to decide speaks clearly ,he has always been kind to His people and His people have always had to live within the political environment they chose or are enslaved in at the time. which ever the case may be.
I find this funny God says DEATH is the ENEMY , an abortion is a death, God considers it an enemy.
how can that be anymore clear? Is it sin? hello sin? death is yep we can conclude is sin.
Death is wrong. but alas it happens quite alot. Lets out law death ! God has already, but it didnt work becuase people do not obey him hence a Saviour and grace etc.
Now abortion He says to leave up to the courts to decide if a wrong is done. and that is only if you ASSUME this is even to be an abortion. It sounds more of a crime and puinshment situation to me.
If i slap myself I cause no harm if another slaps me it could be punished, God is dealing with how we are to live in comunity with one another in this chapter clearly.
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WordWolf
Now that's hardly posting with kindness. <_<
The following is from the front page of the forums:
"please be courteous to fellow posters. Disagree all you want, but respect the fact that someone else may feel as strongly about their ideas as you do about your own. Please don't make it personal. A lively discussions of ideas is both more polite and more relevant."
pond, this thread, Sept 8, 2006, 6:26pm Eastern.Now,
many people would consider this a vote of no-confidence, since it calls
"the Bible a crazy book", and implies the Bible guarantees that EVERY beating of a
horse will result in it talking to the hitter.
If that's not what you meant, then you might consider the message you sent.
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T-Bone
I don't see where you get the idea that God left it up to the courts to decide Israel's moral and legal issues such as the one in Exodus 21. Can you provide Scriptural evidence to back up your claim?
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pond
twisted again ww I said the bible is crazy which means to say full of wild and crazy accounts or happenings meaning in the sense of entertaining and funny and many such adverbs can apply.
I was refuting YOUR IMPLICATION with this as an example WW reread the thread and stop trying to make it different than what it is.
You IMPLIED one verse applies to all situations in the bible and I gave you this as a example of how that is not true at all.
T-bone oh for Gods sake read the first line of the VERY verse. lol
WW says it is all about Doctrine! read it and weep then .
The bible is FULL of statement of how we are to obey the Political situation s and courts of the day T-Bone.
In fact that is what the bible is how God rescues His people over and over from the circumstance at large. Do you even read it?
Gods people live in communities with real lifes and that is what the bible is about.
always have always will.
The name of this book is titled What? EXODUS!!!!
Gee golly what does that mean?? hmmm it is the account of God delivery His people from the slavery of the time they had gotten into because of the political powers that held them for many years!!!!
Gee then we have a few hundred verses about how God dealt with the Rulers and kings and Pharaohs and taskmasters of the day and time to let his people go. God must always deal with the politcal environment of the people.
How did they crucify JESUS???? IN the court, the people decided to let a murderer caught in the act to go free and to crucify Jesus Christ. on and on that is what the entire bible is about!
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greg123
The thing we must remember a child is not a living creature until it takes his/her first breath. While Abortion may be morally wrong let us look into the facts. We are in the Age of Grace, not the Age of the Law. The Law times were very strict to laws and customs of the time. While in the Age of Grace we can take the Lord's name in vain, we can curse, etc. The only thing that will stop this is the Return of Christ when he will be King and Lord. Then there will be no more death. Death goes into the lake of fire, but I am getting of subject here. Abortion is not killing unless the child is alive first. For example you are pregnant and you have your baby and you don't want you child and you throw the child in a dumpster. This is murder or at the least Child Endangerment(if the child lives). Now let us flip the coin the child is a cell in the mother, and the doctor kills it. This would be the same as if you found anthrax and decided to destroy it all. Some could make the argument that the cell was alive. This of course is my opinion, so in my final statement today I will say I think abortion is morally wrong but it should come down to what the woman wants. The court should have nothing to do with it, they are just interfering in private matters.
Greg
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T-Bone
…As I noted in my post # 107 the Judges were brought into the legal process so that damages awarded were fair and were not calculated out of vengeance. From the verse you're referring to [which I had cited below from two different versions] it appears to me the decision the judges/court deliberated over was the amount of compensation to be awarded in a personal injury case.
Exodus 21: 22. When men strive together, and hurt a woman with child, so that there is a miscarriage, and yet no harm follows, the one who hurt her shall be fined, according as the woman's husband shall lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. [RSV]
Exodus 21: 22. And if men fight and hit a pregnant woman and her child is born prematurely, but there is no serious injury, he will surely be punished in accordance with what the woman's husband will put on him, and he will pay what the court decides. [NET]
…Maybe you can clarify something for me. I originally thought you were saying that Israel's court system arbitrarily decided IF an instance of personal injury was wrong. In other words – implying that Israel's court system set their own moral and legal standards. Is that what you are saying?
It appears to me the moral and legal standards for Israel were already in place here – set up by God. Perhaps we are arguing over a misunderstanding between us. I agree that Israel's courts would be responsible to review the particulars of a personal injury case and much like any honorable court would review evidence/witnesses and see if a violation of their already established law had occurred. And if so, they would also deliberate over compensation to the victim/punishment to the perpetrator – again using their already established law ["eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth"].
I have not been trying to use this passage to prove abortion is wrong – and by abortion I mean the deliberate – intentional termination of a pregnancy. My point in using the Exodus passage was to show how God's law dealt with personal injury of a pregnant woman – and in a worst case scenario of death to either or both mother/child. It appears to me the whole situation specified in this passage is over accidental injury or death to either [the mishap occurred during men fighting]. This passage DOES NOT address the deliberate killing of another person. But it does show God's care and concern for human life.
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pond
I agree T-bone. I think God is trying to help the people who have been held captive for many years in a god less environemnt how to properly have a community that will work within his scope of loving one another and HIM.
Romans 13 covers the authority of our civil govt and our attitude towards such.
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Oakspear
It appears that the judges decide not whether a wrong has been done, but how much the transgressor will be fined. It also appears that the verse is talking about an accidental miscarriage due to violence that ended up involving the mother.
I don't know that you can read much into the difference in penalty between an accidental miscarriage and an intentional killing, since there are different penalties for killing a slave as well.
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DrtyDzn
Welcome to the forum Greg.
Please consider the possibility that there can be soul life present without breath life.
Luke 1:44
"For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy."
How can a 6mos. old fetus leap for joy if it doesn't have a soul life already before taking its first breath?
Jerry
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Oakspear
There has been a case made that a fetus is a baby from at least 6 months. Certainly Adam became "a living soul" when "God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life", but does this mean that those of us who are born the regular way aren't really alive until we breathe?
I would suggest going back and reading some of the arguments made in this thread and seeing what you think. If you disagree, please present your case.
You might find that there is a disagreement about even thatLink to comment
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Galen
In which case you will be soundly shouted down.
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pond
I put flea treatment on my cats. i think it worked
do ya think they will arrest me?
death is not neccesarily murder or killing. it is death and a whole another ball of wax.
It is the enemy of God. His creation is not.
God has not breath or "soul" . how he deals with circumstances is as big as this book and life its self. God is love and God is righteous. God deals with what He is which is a HOLY Spirit .
Jesu christ has a victory over death , to be played out in the final round and in the kingdom. Untill then sin will reign and that includes death.
just because something dies doesnt mean it is murdered or any crime has been comminted.
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