Abortion

[twinot]

Moved to Doctrinal Forum

Edited August 28, 2006 by twinot

[WordWolf]

I am not interested in personal opinion but rather what God has to say.

Then I recommend asking a moderator to move this thread to DOCTRINAL,

because you want a DOCTRINAL discussion.

(Check out the pinned/sticky topic.)

Or you could restart this as a new thread in Doctrinal,

and ask a mod to delete this one.

I could swear we DID discuss this once... I'll chime in when I remember

what was said on-topic.

[twinot]

I did a search of the forum on this subject and did not come up with any discussion on what God says on the subject.

This is one of those subjects I've taken a hard look at and still feel uneasy about. I know what VP taught that it's not a human being until it breaths on its own, therefore abortion is not murder.

I wanted to ask what those of you who post here have seen in the bible on this subject.

I am not interested in personal opinion but rather what God has to say.

[I Love Bagpipes]

I found info here and saved it under my favorites for study as time allows.

http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...=4279&st=40

[johniam]

God says nothing directly on the subject. I believe what VP taught, that abortion is not murder. Why?

1) In Eph. 1:4 it says God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, meaning that He knew who was going to survive the womb and everywhere else prior to getting born again.

2) In Acts 4:30, AFTER Jesus was born, he is called a holy CHILD. In Luke 1:35, BEFORE Jesus was born, when he was in utero, he is called a holy THING! Some versions of the bible tweak that verse to say holy one or holy child, but the greek is neuter, according to Bullinger. If it's neuter then it's not male or female. If it's not male or female it's not a child. I get mildly annoyed seeing those bumper stickers which say 'It's a child, not a choice'. If I had the means or the inclination I might alter the message to 'It's a fetus, not a child'.

3) To be fair, when John the baptist was about to be born it says the BABE leapt in Elisabeth's womb. There. No partial birth abortions. If I could make law, I'd say all abortions must be performed before the end of the first trimester (13 weeks) the only exception being if a doctor concluded that the mother's life would be in danger later than that and that any doctor found to fraudulently sign off on that would permanently lose his med license.

4) Any hospital will tell you that worldwide, one out of 4 pregnancies miscarry. So who's the murderer? God?

I don't think abortions should be available at 7/11 at 3AM without a parent of a minor child's consent, but I don't think abortion is murder.

[GarthP2000]

Some versions of the bible tweak that verse to say holy one or holy child, but the greek is neuter, according to Bullinger. If it's neuter then it's not male or female. If it's not male or female it's not a child.

If your interpretation of the Greek in the scriptures is correct, then the scriptures are wrong, as the sex of the fetus is set well before birth. X-rays prove this. Medical science prove this. ... Or are you scripturally fundy enough to discard proven medical & bilogical science simply because scripture says so?

(This illustrates but one of the major problems I have with creationists, but that's another topic for another day)

Oh, and your example of John the Baptist doesn't deal with partial birth abortions at all. Where did you get that idea?

Edited August 28, 2006 by GarthP2000

[Abigail]

if you could make law, Johniam, my best friend from high school would be dead now. She had a partial birth abortion, to abort a baby she desperately wanted, one she spent several years doing infertility treatments to conceive. She did it because she would have died, had she not.

[medic's wife]

Whoa...what a tough subject. As a mom that had to undergo treaments and surgeries to have my kids, well...I can tell you what my "gut reaction" is....but as far as saying it is murder, etc...I cannot.

But....if any of you know of a lady that is considering abortion and would be willimg to contact me regarding me adopting that child...please do so.

I feel if one is going to be very outspoken against something, they need to be willing to pick up the slack.

[pond]

wow medic wife that is very noble and true. people come from such a variety of struggles in life who is one to judge another in the choices they have made you know?

[Galen]

We have adopted.

And we have been foster-parents for the state, in two different states.

So I am all for adoption, and I do fully recognize that some folks are not able to have their own children, and would love to adopt. I also am aware that we have over 150,000 children legally-free currently awaiting adoptive-placement in foster-care nationwide, and most of them will never be adopted by those childless couples.

I am also aware that brainwaves can be detected in fetuses, and heart-beats, and kicks, and lots of things; which would all seem to imply that a fetus is a living soul.

I also believe that it is still not a living soul until that fetus takes it's own breath of air.

:)

[Abigail]

What TWI taught about breath life, seems to be what Judaism teaches as well. Children are valued, it is a mitzvah to have children. But, the mother's life is the priority, if a choice must be made for medical reasons, the mother's life is to be saved. Beyond that, it is a very very serious issue, not to be taken lightly, but ultimately the decision lies with the woman.

But unfortunately, I cannot document anything Biblically beyond what was taught in TWI. I could prossibly find the Rabbinical arguments, but I don't think that is what you are looking for.

[johniam]

quote: if you could make law, Johniam, my best friend from high school would be dead now. She had a partial birth abortion, to abort a baby she desperately wanted, one she spent several years doing infertility treatments to conceive. She did it because she would have died, had she not.

Ummm....

quote: If I could make law, I'd say all abortions must be performed before the end of the first trimester (13 weeks) the only exception being if a doctor concluded that the mother's life would be in danger later than that

Abby, I believe that my law would allow for your friend's treatment. Her life was in danger, right?

[twinot]

Thank you all for your thoughts on this subject. I am now a father of two young boys and this subject has come up in my mind many times. I have a brother-in-law who is Roman Catholic and over the years especially my early years learning the bible this subject came up. I did not have the sense to leave it alone around him and he caught my sister, his wife and I discussing it. He was let's say not pleased about my views!

The verse that they threw at me was:

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Of course I noted the word "before" which hooks up with Eph 1:4. God knows who is going to be formed and eventually who will be born. This verse was used to say that God knows us when we are inside the womb as a fetus.

One thing I've learned over the years and have a far better understanding now that I am a father is that emotion can easily enter this subject and cause a person to stop looking at the Word. It is hard to see that sonogram and see that "thing" moving at 3 months and still believe that it's not a human being until it breaths on it's own.

I have to say though that what I learned from TWI on this subject still is what I see in the Word. The logic just fits and the other details that you'all shared make the case.

[Abigail]

I apologize, JohnIAm, you did say that.

[Galen]

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and]I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

I always saw that as saying that God knew us BEFORE we were formed. Which places it before our conception. And yes I have no problem with the idea that God knew me 1,000 years before I was born.

So?

I view God as outside of the timeline, and looking at the entire timeline as a whole, He knows everyone from all times.

[rhino]

I recall twi teaching from the OT ... something about if a child was lost, it was murder. If a woman was harmed and caused the fetus to die, it was treated as a theft. I couldn't tell you where those verses were.

[George Aar]

It's Exodus, Rhino.

I think about chapter 23 or 24...

[johniam]

Exodus 21:12 says you kill someone, you die. Verse 22 covers the woman who loses her fetus.

[johniam]

Abby: I can see why you thought what you did. I did say no partial birth abortions. I think a simple enforcible law like I described would cover most situations, but push comes to shove, I think the mother's life is priority over the fetus's. I bet Jacob and Rachel would've had one if it was possible then.

Edited August 29, 2006 by johniam

[pond]

I guess a defination of a "mothers life" should be defined today, but it isnt, if the "mothers life" is to continue to live in selfish careless choices which include careless sex and no responsibility it is good enough for abortion today.

the bible was written in a culture that said and meant SEX without marriage was a Sin .

today many forget how to avoid this "choice" all together.

I think the fact sex without marriage or adultary within marriage is the larger issue with God.

If his children would simply follow his commandments many less abortions would be needed and this would not be such the issue it is, it would most probably come down to just the health of the mom. and very seldom needed.

I think the emotional impact is ignored today for the most part it just isnt addressed, and this does alot of harm to people, moms and dads.

the issue isnt whether abortion is sin it is the sexual sins that abhorr the Almighty.

[GarthP2000]

the bible was written in a culture that said and meant SEX without marriage was a Sin .

Sure it did. So much of a difference from our American culture, ehh?

Not exactly, especially when you read right there in the scriptures of men having multiple wives, concubines, screwing with harlots just as much as they do today (and that with no STD preventions), ... and of course, let's not forget the OT approved taking of young virgin girls for themselves during times of war with the heathen, donchaknow.

Yah! A *real* haven for the Moral Majority. <_<

[Oakspear]

2) In Acts 4:30, AFTER Jesus was born, he is called a holy CHILD. In Luke 1:35, BEFORE Jesus was born, when he was in utero, he is called a holy THING! Some versions of the bible tweak that verse to say holy one or holy child, but the greek is neuter, according to Bullinger. If it's neuter then it's not male or female. If it's not male or female it's not a child. I get mildly annoyed seeing those bumper stickers which say 'It's a child, not a choice'. If I had the means or the inclination I might alter the message to 'It's a fetus, not a child'.

According to the blue letter bible concordance, the phrase "that holy thing" is the single Greek word hagios - "thing" was added by the translators, and therefore has no authority.

[Galen]

Sure it did. So much of a difference from our American culture, ehh?

Not exactly, especially when you read right there in the scriptures of men having multiple wives, concubines, screwing with harlots just as much as they do today (and that with no STD preventions), ... and of course, let's not forget the OT approved taking of young virgin girls for themselves during times of war with the heathen, donchaknow.

With the exception of messing with the Harlots, I see no problem with the rest of that behavior, all decent and orderly that is, and within marriage.

[pond]

The seed of Abraham was need to build a nation of twelve tribes , we needed a Saviourand the line needed to have been from Gods own "blood" (people) God sanctified unions within his rule and problems did occur as written.

Jesus Christ brought in some new Rules from God concerning marriage and divorce .

the world is going to wax worse till the end of the party, as such, it follows that "before time" was less involved in illness and sin and problems at large .

[pond]

If Mary had died during the gestation stage and the pregnacy terminated or if she had a miscarriage.

Would that mean we would never have a Saviour and God's plan would fail for mankind?

of course not.. it is all about what an individual can do with the Almighty creator of all.

we adore those storys of the 8 oz baby born to live a happy fullfilled life what a blessing and miricle from God.

Yet God is no respector of people and if a woman is pregnate and truly cant manage a child for health or whatever reason does God say to bad for you it is to late?

would you even love your own child in such a manner risking their own death?

God knows who is His before the foundation.. if a woman aborts a baby that is HIS does another get pregnate with that individual?

it wouldnt be that person would it? not if we went by what science consideres a person dna would be totaly different wouldnt it?