I acknowledge your admonition though I don't agree with it. Going to an offshoot would be difficult. Some with a knowledge of my particular flaws would most likely agree with that.
As for the "progressive or liberal" churches, I consider them worse than TWI by virtue that they water down so much by using versions of the KJV and consider them truth. Other versions are great for reference....but su** at reliance.
If these guys would ever do a proper study, they would never use these books to teach from.
As for sin conscienceness and needing Jesus Christ. Sin conscienceness only keeps people in captivity. Jesus Christ set us free and by so doing, enabled us to become sogwop(s). Jesus Christ is our advocate and we need his example of walking the truth in order to maintain some type of fellowship with God
Nobody has the ALL the truth. To put so much emphasis on doctrine is a waste of time IMHO. Anybody who claims they have more truth than any other organization is one I run far and fast from. I belive the RELATIONSHIP is the #1 aspect of why we are here. I want to go somewhere where people are not judged by how spiritual they are. I want to go somewhere where love is taught and evidenced by those involved, and where our shortcomings are not magnified and where I can worship God with humility. I found that at church.
An excellent thread, Hope…This thread got me to remember a description I heard while in TWI – not sure of the origin of it. The context I heard it in was in putting down a regular church in favor of a TWI fellowship. A typical church pastor was likened to a bus driver [now I heard this a couple of years before Passing of the Patriarch – so hold off on the snickers] in charge of carrying the congregation somewhere - with many of the members falling asleep on the bus – this was meant to show how churches did not foster spiritually active people – in other words laziness. While this may be true of some mainstream churches – I now think it’s ironic – in that is exactly what I saw happening in TWI fellowships in my TWI-days. I think some ex-TWI folk have a hard time getting over the pride of doctrinal-know-it-all-ism – when they scan the horizon for an acceptable form of church community nothing comes close to being good enough.
I’m not saying doctrine isn’t important. But for me, coming out of a group that saw themselves as the present day Ephesians – holders of the greatest revelation given to the church – there’s a humbling realization I came to after reading Revelation 1: 17 to 3: 22. This is where Jesus Christ gives a message to seven different churches. The first church He spoke about was the one at Ephesus – He said they were hard working and concerned with doctrinal truth – BUT – they had forsaken their first love. His words to them were, “Repent and do the things you did at first…” Revelation 2:5…I think it’s an interesting section to read when considering what Jesus Christ thinks is important in a church. Five of the churches He had negative comments to say about them and called for them to repent. But two of the churches He had encouraging words and told them to keep on with what they were doing.
My wife and I have switched from looking for a church that lines up with our beliefs point-by-point - to trying to be sensitive to what church our Lord Jesus Christ thinks we should serve in. We have done some church-shopping awhile ago – and still have not committed to any one in particular – really a lot of our hesitancy due to scheduling conflicts with our jobs – and – yes – some concerns out of getting involved with a Christian group again…For now – our church is Grease Spot – hallelujah!!!!!! Can I get an amen from Reverend Pawtucket.
What is wrong with church, I ask myself what is wrong with me. After successfully graduating from the Ninth Way corps (if that is success). I say my intentions of seeking God was not in vain I in my integrety know I was just wanting to serve.
After stopping from doing anything with the WAY after the reading of POP. I began going to different churches. Every time I sat there listening, I argue and compare what is taught in the pulpit and mostly disagreeing from what I was taught in the Way what is being taught. I still do this. I argue.
I recall that when the disciples came up to Jesus all bent that someone would not follow him , all he said was no one can call on me and speak less of me. Now, that has always helped me as everyone has such a different take and upbringing. I reckon I will always deal with this till I die but hey life is good. The one thing I have learned about life is it always changes and you can't change you will struggle or die.
I even tried some of those splinter groups of home fellowships off and on of old believers I knew and couldn't get back into it.
What's wrong with church? Lots of stuff because it's made up of people. And people are sinners. That's why Jesus had to die for us.
Currently I am called Catholic.
What I like about Catholic church:
:)Lots of nice things about the service. It's just filled with little kindnesses.
Communion is focal point of the service.
The "sermon" (called homily) is not focal point of the service.
Rarely is there yelling. Since leaving twi I can recall two loud yelling times from the podium (out of hundreds of time).
When the priest says a blessing such as "the Lord be with you," the congregation often responds with "and also with you."
There is a time for greeting each other.
The Lord's prayer.
:)Money to Catholic church builds schools and orphanages, soup kitchens, and hospitals. It is really working.
:)Catholics I have found are more interested in getting their own lives together and right with the Lord than telling others what to do.
Other churches. The Lord is healing me of the supercilious stare with which I used to look down my nose at other groups as they endeavored to do their best to live for the Lord. Now I enjoy whenever I go to other churches.
And I try always to look for the Lord in these places. I am always looking for the face of Jesus.
geer's outfit collapsed, but people are still going to geer fellowships? :blink:
please explain, twinky.
(i could never take geer seriously. he always reminded me of chuck mccann (who remembers chuck mccann?), so how could i?)
This is a bit of an aside from the main topic, but --
The Way in GB based out of Gartmore, Scotland, collapsed. This is where Geer was based at the time of PoP and where he alleges VPW made all those matters of concern known. Don't know when it collapsed - around 2000? Could be a little before or a little later.
Since then it appears from GSC that he returned to the USA and has set up some other fellowship/organization here which people have reported attending.
Gartmore was an old school with huge grounds in fabulously beautiful country. It's pretty remote from any sort of civilization but would be worth a packet. (Could be a very exclusive hotel - excellent fishing and other outdoor activities nearby.) Wonder what became of the money it was sold for? Rather suspect it was originally paid for by TWI but they had split years and years before so extremely doubtful that anything would go back there; that would have been done at the time of the split.
As to churches: if they meet your need at any particular time - why not?
I never found anything helpful in established churches, seemed to be too much ritual and not enough outside of that. Since then the vicar in my village church has died. The new vicar is quite clued in and particularly tries to get things going to interest young people,
Churches in general seem to have moved on. Some seem quite lively and others still seem dull and boring. Twig fellowships were full of excited, enthusiastic people who liked each other and loved God. That was very attractive. And yes, there were a few healings, not just wilting prayers for healing, at the beginning.
Don't see why people can't go to churches to meet specific needs at different times in their lives. Not one of us knows it all, and we can all learn from others and teach others (if only by giving a kind word or a smile!). There is a lot to be said for the social bonds of "going to church" in the community in which you live, but that's only one aspect of the fellowship.
The bible tells us that "signs, miracles and wonders" follow believers. If you see this happening in the church of your choice, see what you can learn there. If you don't see it happening, maybe it's time to look elsewhere.
Go where your needs are met, whether established church, TWI splinter group or even TWI (shudder). When you aren't learning any more and don't see yourself growing in God's grace, if you need to go elsewhere - go! With God's blessing!
This is a bit of an aside from the main topic, but --
The Way in GB based out of Gartmore, Scotland, collapsed. This is where Geer was based at the time of PoP and where he alleges VPW made all those matters of concern known. Don't know when it collapsed - around 2000? Could be a little before or a little later.
Since then it appears from GSC that he returned to the USA and has set up some other fellowship/organization here which people have reported attending.
Gartmore was an old school with huge grounds in fabulously beautiful country. It's pretty remote from any sort of civilization but would be worth a packet. (Could be a very exclusive hotel - excellent fishing and other outdoor activities nearby.) Wonder what became of the money it was sold for? Rather suspect it was originally paid for by TWI but they had split years and years before so extremely doubtful that anything would go back there; that would have been done at the time of the split.
Pretty close Twinky except Word Promotions was in existence before the close of Gartmore House although it has relocated a couple of times to different addresses for the office it has always been based out of Scotland. Word Promotions holds the licensee agreements and materials for The Walking in God's Power Classes as well as the Gartmore SNS Tapes. Any affiliation would be limited to holding a license to run those classes. There is no fellowship structure setup, although as most people tend to compartmentalize things, you will often hear they are part of Geer's fellowship or Vince's fellowship or ......... It appears that they are in the process of setting up to do business in the states I'd guess to avoid having to ship out of Scotland as they have done in the past and to eliminate travel back and forth.
No "official" fellowship structure, but having been around geer groups in 4 different states, I can attest it's not much different than the twi way tree controlling structure. Obey the leaders or you're "off the word" and persona non grata (sp?). And don't even THINK about questioning the leader, speaking ill of vp or doing your own "research".
I don't disagree with your assessment of the group as a whole. My point was that they don't have a Way Tree structure like the Way did. The fellowships run independently, Word promotions is a supply center for materials. Much like CES was in their early days providing tapes,classes,books and so forth. So it is incorrect to say really that someone goes to a Geer fellowship unless they live in Maine and do attend his, Otherwise they go to a local independent fellowship. The one around this area is called Heartland Word Resources. In The Way we ran Way Fellowships at least in the later years they were not stand alone entities with separate directors and bank accounts that's the difference.
No "official" fellowship structure, but having been around geer groups in 4 different states, I can attest it's not much different than the twi way tree controlling structure. Obey the leaders or you're "off the word" and persona non grata (sp?). And don't even THINK about questioning the leader, speaking ill of vp or doing your own "research".
J.
Having just talked to a corps grad who recently left a geerite group............he said there were two main points of contention:
1) Conformity to Geerite class doctrine........All local teachings stemmed from geer's classes. No emphasis was placed on the particular needs in this "independent" fellowship.
2) The ex-twi reverend's top goal for the year.....was to NOT lose his license for running geer classes. Apparently, many have not upheld their agreement and/or standard of this geer-license/franchise/contract.
Doesn't sound too "independent" if you ask me.
What are the rules? The fees? The agreement to keeping a geer-license??? Anybody know?
What's wrong with church? Lots of stuff because it's made up of people. And people are sinners. That's why Jesus had to die for us.
Currently I am called Catholic.
What I like about Catholic church:
:)Lots of nice things about the service. It's just filled with little kindnesses.
Communion is focal point of the service.
The "sermon" (called homily) is not focal point of the service.
Rarely is there yelling. Since leaving twi I can recall two loud yelling times from the podium (out of hundreds of time).
When the priest says a blessing such as "the Lord be with you," the congregation often responds with "and also with you."
There is a time for greeting each other.
The Lord's prayer.
:)Money to Catholic church builds schools and orphanages, soup kitchens, and hospitals. It is really working.
:)Catholics I have found are more interested in getting their own lives together and right with the Lord than telling others what to do.
Other churches. The Lord is healing me of the supercilious stare with which I used to look down my nose at other groups as they endeavored to do their best to live for the Lord. Now I enjoy whenever I go to other churches.
And I try always to look for the Lord in these places. I am always looking for the face of Jesus.
My opinion.
Hopefully,
I bet MarkO would smile reading that. Your understanding and compassion reflect you receive something from your church Kit.
Word Promotions was in existence before the close of Gartmore House although it has relocated a couple of times to different addresses for the office it has always been based out of Scotland. Word Promotions holds the licensee agreements and materials for The Walking in God's Power Classes as well as the Gartmore SNS Tapes...
Never heard of this "Word Promotions Ltd" before, but guess what, Google shows them at an address in Edinburgh. So can it be assumed CG knew Gartmore was going down and then set up this business while the ship was sinking (so that he could continue to generate an income)?
Bruce Mahone seems to have a franchise/license/whatever from Word Promotions Ltd known as The Capital Area Biblical Studies Fellowship (CABSF) based out of Woodbridge, VA ("established in 1995 for the purpose of Biblical research, teaching, and fellowship in the Washington, D.C. metropolitan area. The group endeavors to present Biblical teaching of the highest caliber possible, based on the most accurate research available. Activities include scheduled classes, focused conferences, and public meetings in support of local home Bible fellowships.") So you know who to avoid... depending on your pain threshold.
Is Word Promotions Ltd where the dosh went from Gartmore? A UK believer told me that she was in the vicinity a few years ago, decided to visit Gartmore (she'd been WoW from there when it first opened up) - and found the place closed. So far as she was aware, there had never been any announcement that it was closing down.
A tape ministry ... lotsa fellowship there (tongue in cheek). At least in your average church there are real human beings and some of them might smile at you and say hello. You might even get a cuppa. Not many hugs from a tape deck.
The money from Gartmore House would be in the account and control of the Way In Great Britain LTD what the trustees did with it I don't know. As I said Chris was a paid employee with a contract. As I remember he declined to accept the balance of the money for his contract. You could assume anything you like but the demise of Gartmore occurred relatively quickly over a license agreement and a promoted class that people showed up for all around the world and never happened. Until then there was no sinking ship as you put it .
Having just talked to a corps grad who recently left a geerite group............he said there were two main points of contention:
1) Conformity to Geerite class doctrine........All local teachings stemmed from geer's classes. No emphasis was placed on the particular needs in this "independent" fellowship.
2) The ex-twi reverend's top goal for the year.....was to NOT lose his license for running geer classes. Apparently, many have not upheld their agreement and/or standard of this geer-license/franchise/contract.
Doesn't sound too "independent" if you ask me.
What are the rules? The fees? The agreement to keeping a geer-license??? Anybody know?
:unsure:
As I said Sky each fellowship is self governing if the leader of that fellowship decides to rely on and focus his attention on a license agreement only, I would say that was the leaders fault I doubt you would want to be held accountable for someone else's decision and I doubt you could hold a completely different man or organization accountable either for a leaders decisions in another state. Your looking for blame that is not there. It is as independent as each leader wants it to be. It is their choice to apply for licencing or not. Sounds like a independent choice to me?
Of course once you do you lose something in the trade, that is no different than any licence with a company,review a Coke licence or a Zerox one sometime everything has it's pro's and con's. If you don't like the choice don't do it ,Pretty simple to me.
By the way the agreement is rather strict , not one I would do, but each to their own....That's the thing about independent choice.
I have maintained my renewed mind by allowing the radio preachers to challenge me. In other words, I listen to this station claiming to be a "Christian" station with 24 hour preachers ( a different one every half hour). Every one from Hagee to Swindall. As they teach subjects based on "stories" and psychological self-help stuff, I grab my Bullinger and/or my 'renewed mind' and start working on their so-called logic.
As I listen, I compare what I know the verses say compared to what they think they say.
I listen in my office at home from time to time and in my truck. When I'm in my truck, it has become normal to start yelling at the dashboard. When I was in TWI, I would sing to my steering wheel.
I listened to one of these birds the other night and observed his "teaching" for 30 minutes without going to the Bible once! ! ! !
Every once in a while, I hear them stumble on something that shows scriptural insight. But it is rare.
If this is anything like churchianity, ... no thanks.
I'm still a firm believer that JCING, TDANAN, and most of the other collaterals. With that strong of a belief in those subjects, I'd feel like a priest at Hooters.
I never liked how LCM use to rant and rave about these guys on the radio.... but now, I fully understand why he did it. And I know very few will believe this.....but I think he was right......they couldn't find the bxtts in the dark with a roadmap and a flashlight. These guys will never actually try to do a word study on some of the basic stuff. They will always teach that God controls people and sin conscienceness. Idolatry runs rampant.
Christmas and Easter are the worse... mainly because they still teach the fairy tales of Christmas and the 'Charleston Heston' version of the Passover. Why put up with that in a church?
I think if I went to church, I'd end up saying something under my breath that would get me kicked out anyway.
One more thing.
I don't go to a splinter group either.
Are you really listening, or was your mind made up to begin with and you just went looking for answers you felt comfortable with?
I give vpw's and lcm's comments about many preachers about much worth as I do about how well the war in Iraq is going. (not much).
If you read or listened to Swindoll, Stanley and even Hagee, you'll see a richness of study and knowledge that allows them to dig deep. TWI allegedly taught the Word only, but even Jesus used parables, so cut preachers some slack OK.
It is as independent as each leader wants it to be. It is their choice to apply for licencing or not.
I would agree with you on "as independent as each leader wants it to be" which is my point exactly. Some of them lived off the twi tit for so long, that they naturally gravitated to their comfort level of The Way Tree structure (not matter what they call it, or how "independent" their licensese read -- it's how they PRACTICE IT).
For example. When J*e Guar*ni was alive, he was still the state leader of the Geer group in IL. He and Bob Card*n were the two top dogs and cooperated with each other, but the structure and corps grads in the group just "played twi". Now, don't get me wrong, Joe was a buddy of mine. Loved him and love his family, but that's how the structure was. And Joe and Bob were the least legalistic of all the group, but the boys in the band, whew!
Now under Joe were the state leaders: Howard Ste*n in WI, Rich Watk*ns in IN, Greg Bernard*ni in IL, Al Wajnb*rg moved up to IL to join the group right before Joe's death and I forget the guy in MI. They all worked together as the "leadership" and then had the same local area, branch and twig structure, though they didn't call it that, but in practice - - don't step out of line from the party line.
Same deal in Calif. You have Do*g Seed in No. Cal, D*n M*ran in So. Cal. - - and little Geer satellites all over the state. The do their state summer camp and all the geerites come out of the woodwork. It's a little less structured than the midwest, but pretty much the same deal - - don't step out of line. Again, Doug and Dan are friends - - I could pick up the phone and talk to either one today and not have a problem with either one, but just don't choose to play way tree with them.
How about the NE? You have J*rry C*rr, et al. You Northeasterners who've been there want to chime in?????
So yes, Hap. It's as independent as each group in that each local guy has to apply for his own license and kick in his percentage of his local meeting and class fee take to the Geer retirement fund, but the practice I have observed says something entirely different. They are technically independent with their own name and bank accounts, yes. But the "likemindedness" or you're "off the Word", the "our Father in the Word" mentality, the respector of men as "THE men of God" stuff, runs a bit thick for my taste. YMMV.
My completely unqualified opinion of Geer's Class Franchise is very low. I've never attended it so only know what I've heard, that it's a reworked version of PFAL, without the personality and with some of the material shaved down.
I guess I have to wonder why anyone who was well versed in PFAL and wanted to offer a "class" as the ideal way to reach and teach people would buy someone else's class....? Given that so much training and time and study went into the 3 part series by so many people it seems like it would make sense to teach your own, do your own "class". That way every class would be live and could be tailored to that specific group. Live presentation will always be more dynamic and effective because - it's live. Real people. I could see use of different kinds of media to enhance a class-style presenation. Can't see why anyone would rely primarily on a canned presentation though. To pay for the right to do so seems like a waste of money when you could just do it yourself. Maybe there's some shine that comes from having "Geer's class"? Dunno.
Why ex-Wayfers flock to this kind of thing may not be complicated or "spiritual" at all. Maybe it's just a comfort level - people tend to like what they know, what they're familiar with. If someone liked all the teaching and the home fellowship arrangement before, but didn't like the authoritarian management approach, it probably makes sense to find another church that has the one, and not the other. So somebody says "we're moving down the street to my house, see you Tuesday at 7:30", that's probably just find and dandy. Until it isn't, inevitably there will be friction of one kind or another between people. As long as it doesn't get too hot and heavy, everything's okay.
We've visited several churches in our area, and it's certainly not a vast wasteland out here. There's some pretty interesting, inspiring and helpful things going on.
choice????HAH!! their way or the hiway, watta choice....
It is the same half-baked stuff from TWI, re-done. Most of 'em are not Bad Guys but they are buying the sameold-same old that vic was dishing out.
I am happy to think and believe as I see fit and to extend the same to everyone who ever sits in my home for a bible study, fellowship or home church meeting. I hope to God they disagree!, how will they or I ever LEARN anything if all we ever do is barf back the same info time after time. I enjoy hearing and reading what other men and women have to say, it keeps you thinking and allows God to teach you.
No more stupid stale ex-way classes for moi, thank you!!
I am speaking on behalf of CABSF here. I was in Bruce's fellowship until June of 06. I can tell you from first hand experience, he works very hard to teach with integrity, and maintains a very loving ministry. You quoted from his website and I can tell you what you see is what you get....No one tryed to dictate my life while I participated. His teachings are based on the love of God and are very practical in life...It opened my eyes to love again after leaving a spiritualy abusing ministry..
I do not get caught up with CES,CFF, or any titles reguarding who follows who. If it helps people to heal and move on in life heck I would go...but if they teach Law...I will be in the back row ready to exit..
FYI, Joe Jr. recently decided to continue his dad's ministry. He's a great guy and it will be interesting to watch someone who wasn't a part of the TWI system.
Thanks for the link TommyZ. I think Bob C. is a great guy and from all I've heard has helped a great many of very waybrained, hurt, disillusioned folks (particularly those coming off years on staff at twi) re-group and start over over the past 20 years or so.
Joe Jr. is a prince among men. Great young man. Certainly has the heart of both his dad and mom. Thanks for sharing that piece of news.
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YIdon'tgotochurch
miss bliss
I acknowledge your admonition though I don't agree with it. Going to an offshoot would be difficult. Some with a knowledge of my particular flaws would most likely agree with that.
As for the "progressive or liberal" churches, I consider them worse than TWI by virtue that they water down so much by using versions of the KJV and consider them truth. Other versions are great for reference....but su** at reliance.
If these guys would ever do a proper study, they would never use these books to teach from.
As for sin conscienceness and needing Jesus Christ. Sin conscienceness only keeps people in captivity. Jesus Christ set us free and by so doing, enabled us to become sogwop(s). Jesus Christ is our advocate and we need his example of walking the truth in order to maintain some type of fellowship with God
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Nottawayfer
Nobody has the ALL the truth. To put so much emphasis on doctrine is a waste of time IMHO. Anybody who claims they have more truth than any other organization is one I run far and fast from. I belive the RELATIONSHIP is the #1 aspect of why we are here. I want to go somewhere where people are not judged by how spiritual they are. I want to go somewhere where love is taught and evidenced by those involved, and where our shortcomings are not magnified and where I can worship God with humility. I found that at church.
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T-Bone
An excellent thread, Hope…This thread got me to remember a description I heard while in TWI – not sure of the origin of it. The context I heard it in was in putting down a regular church in favor of a TWI fellowship. A typical church pastor was likened to a bus driver [now I heard this a couple of years before Passing of the Patriarch – so hold off on the snickers] in charge of carrying the congregation somewhere - with many of the members falling asleep on the bus – this was meant to show how churches did not foster spiritually active people – in other words laziness. While this may be true of some mainstream churches – I now think it’s ironic – in that is exactly what I saw happening in TWI fellowships in my TWI-days. I think some ex-TWI folk have a hard time getting over the pride of doctrinal-know-it-all-ism – when they scan the horizon for an acceptable form of church community nothing comes close to being good enough.
I’m not saying doctrine isn’t important. But for me, coming out of a group that saw themselves as the present day Ephesians – holders of the greatest revelation given to the church – there’s a humbling realization I came to after reading Revelation 1: 17 to 3: 22. This is where Jesus Christ gives a message to seven different churches. The first church He spoke about was the one at Ephesus – He said they were hard working and concerned with doctrinal truth – BUT – they had forsaken their first love. His words to them were, “Repent and do the things you did at first…” Revelation 2:5…I think it’s an interesting section to read when considering what Jesus Christ thinks is important in a church. Five of the churches He had negative comments to say about them and called for them to repent. But two of the churches He had encouraging words and told them to keep on with what they were doing.
My wife and I have switched from looking for a church that lines up with our beliefs point-by-point - to trying to be sensitive to what church our Lord Jesus Christ thinks we should serve in. We have done some church-shopping awhile ago – and still have not committed to any one in particular – really a lot of our hesitancy due to scheduling conflicts with our jobs – and – yes – some concerns out of getting involved with a Christian group again…For now – our church is Grease Spot – hallelujah!!!!!! Can I get an amen from Reverend Pawtucket.
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twinot
WaferNot:
Could you expound more on what you mean by "the relationship" ?
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fellowshipper
What is wrong with church, I ask myself what is wrong with me. After successfully graduating from the Ninth Way corps (if that is success). I say my intentions of seeking God was not in vain I in my integrety know I was just wanting to serve.
After stopping from doing anything with the WAY after the reading of POP. I began going to different churches. Every time I sat there listening, I argue and compare what is taught in the pulpit and mostly disagreeing from what I was taught in the Way what is being taught. I still do this. I argue.
I recall that when the disciples came up to Jesus all bent that someone would not follow him , all he said was no one can call on me and speak less of me. Now, that has always helped me as everyone has such a different take and upbringing. I reckon I will always deal with this till I die but hey life is good. The one thing I have learned about life is it always changes and you can't change you will struggle or die.
I even tried some of those splinter groups of home fellowships off and on of old believers I knew and couldn't get back into it.
THAT,S MY STORY AND I'M STICKING TO IT
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Kit Sober
What's wrong with church? Lots of stuff because it's made up of people. And people are sinners. That's why Jesus had to die for us.
Currently I am called Catholic.
What I like about Catholic church:
:)Lots of nice things about the service. It's just filled with little kindnesses.
Communion is focal point of the service.
The "sermon" (called homily) is not focal point of the service.
Rarely is there yelling. Since leaving twi I can recall two loud yelling times from the podium (out of hundreds of time).
When the priest says a blessing such as "the Lord be with you," the congregation often responds with "and also with you."
There is a time for greeting each other.
The Lord's prayer.
:)Money to Catholic church builds schools and orphanages, soup kitchens, and hospitals. It is really working.
:)Catholics I have found are more interested in getting their own lives together and right with the Lord than telling others what to do.
Other churches. The Lord is healing me of the supercilious stare with which I used to look down my nose at other groups as they endeavored to do their best to live for the Lord. Now I enjoy whenever I go to other churches.
And I try always to look for the Lord in these places. I am always looking for the face of Jesus.
My opinion.
Hopefully,
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Twinky
The Way in GB based out of Gartmore, Scotland, collapsed. This is where Geer was based at the time of PoP and where he alleges VPW made all those matters of concern known. Don't know when it collapsed - around 2000? Could be a little before or a little later.
Since then it appears from GSC that he returned to the USA and has set up some other fellowship/organization here which people have reported attending.
Gartmore was an old school with huge grounds in fabulously beautiful country. It's pretty remote from any sort of civilization but would be worth a packet. (Could be a very exclusive hotel - excellent fishing and other outdoor activities nearby.) Wonder what became of the money it was sold for? Rather suspect it was originally paid for by TWI but they had split years and years before so extremely doubtful that anything would go back there; that would have been done at the time of the split.
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Twinky
As to churches: if they meet your need at any particular time - why not?
I never found anything helpful in established churches, seemed to be too much ritual and not enough outside of that. Since then the vicar in my village church has died. The new vicar is quite clued in and particularly tries to get things going to interest young people,
Churches in general seem to have moved on. Some seem quite lively and others still seem dull and boring. Twig fellowships were full of excited, enthusiastic people who liked each other and loved God. That was very attractive. And yes, there were a few healings, not just wilting prayers for healing, at the beginning.
Don't see why people can't go to churches to meet specific needs at different times in their lives. Not one of us knows it all, and we can all learn from others and teach others (if only by giving a kind word or a smile!). There is a lot to be said for the social bonds of "going to church" in the community in which you live, but that's only one aspect of the fellowship.
The bible tells us that "signs, miracles and wonders" follow believers. If you see this happening in the church of your choice, see what you can learn there. If you don't see it happening, maybe it's time to look elsewhere.
Go where your needs are met, whether established church, TWI splinter group or even TWI (shudder). When you aren't learning any more and don't see yourself growing in God's grace, if you need to go elsewhere - go! With God's blessing!
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WhiteDove
Pretty close Twinky except Word Promotions was in existence before the close of Gartmore House although it has relocated a couple of times to different addresses for the office it has always been based out of Scotland. Word Promotions holds the licensee agreements and materials for The Walking in God's Power Classes as well as the Gartmore SNS Tapes. Any affiliation would be limited to holding a license to run those classes. There is no fellowship structure setup, although as most people tend to compartmentalize things, you will often hear they are part of Geer's fellowship or Vince's fellowship or ......... It appears that they are in the process of setting up to do business in the states I'd guess to avoid having to ship out of Scotland as they have done in the past and to eliminate travel back and forth.
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jardinero
No "official" fellowship structure, but having been around geer groups in 4 different states, I can attest it's not much different than the twi way tree controlling structure. Obey the leaders or you're "off the word" and persona non grata (sp?). And don't even THINK about questioning the leader, speaking ill of vp or doing your own "research".
J.
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WhiteDove
Hey J
I don't disagree with your assessment of the group as a whole. My point was that they don't have a Way Tree structure like the Way did. The fellowships run independently, Word promotions is a supply center for materials. Much like CES was in their early days providing tapes,classes,books and so forth. So it is incorrect to say really that someone goes to a Geer fellowship unless they live in Maine and do attend his, Otherwise they go to a local independent fellowship. The one around this area is called Heartland Word Resources. In The Way we ran Way Fellowships at least in the later years they were not stand alone entities with separate directors and bank accounts that's the difference.
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skyrider
Having just talked to a corps grad who recently left a geerite group............he said there were two main points of contention:
1) Conformity to Geerite class doctrine........All local teachings stemmed from geer's classes. No emphasis was placed on the particular needs in this "independent" fellowship.
2) The ex-twi reverend's top goal for the year.....was to NOT lose his license for running geer classes. Apparently, many have not upheld their agreement and/or standard of this geer-license/franchise/contract.
Doesn't sound too "independent" if you ask me.
What are the rules? The fees? The agreement to keeping a geer-license??? Anybody know?
:unsure:
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ChattyKathy
I bet MarkO would smile reading that. Your understanding and compassion reflect you receive something from your church Kit.
(speaking of MarkO...?...)
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Twinky
Never heard of this "Word Promotions Ltd" before, but guess what, Google shows them at an address in Edinburgh. So can it be assumed CG knew Gartmore was going down and then set up this business while the ship was sinking (so that he could continue to generate an income)?
Bruce Mahone seems to have a franchise/license/whatever from Word Promotions Ltd known as The Capital Area Biblical Studies Fellowship (CABSF) based out of Woodbridge, VA ("established in 1995 for the purpose of Biblical research, teaching, and fellowship in the Washington, D.C. metropolitan area. The group endeavors to present Biblical teaching of the highest caliber possible, based on the most accurate research available. Activities include scheduled classes, focused conferences, and public meetings in support of local home Bible fellowships.") So you know who to avoid... depending on your pain threshold.
Is Word Promotions Ltd where the dosh went from Gartmore? A UK believer told me that she was in the vicinity a few years ago, decided to visit Gartmore (she'd been WoW from there when it first opened up) - and found the place closed. So far as she was aware, there had never been any announcement that it was closing down.
A tape ministry ... lotsa fellowship there (tongue in cheek). At least in your average church there are real human beings and some of them might smile at you and say hello. You might even get a cuppa. Not many hugs from a tape deck.
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WhiteDove
The money from Gartmore House would be in the account and control of the Way In Great Britain LTD what the trustees did with it I don't know. As I said Chris was a paid employee with a contract. As I remember he declined to accept the balance of the money for his contract. You could assume anything you like but the demise of Gartmore occurred relatively quickly over a license agreement and a promoted class that people showed up for all around the world and never happened. Until then there was no sinking ship as you put it .
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WhiteDove
As I said Sky each fellowship is self governing if the leader of that fellowship decides to rely on and focus his attention on a license agreement only, I would say that was the leaders fault I doubt you would want to be held accountable for someone else's decision and I doubt you could hold a completely different man or organization accountable either for a leaders decisions in another state. Your looking for blame that is not there. It is as independent as each leader wants it to be. It is their choice to apply for licencing or not. Sounds like a independent choice to me?
Of course once you do you lose something in the trade, that is no different than any licence with a company,review a Coke licence or a Zerox one sometime everything has it's pro's and con's. If you don't like the choice don't do it ,Pretty simple to me.
By the way the agreement is rather strict , not one I would do, but each to their own....That's the thing about independent choice.
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def59
Are you really listening, or was your mind made up to begin with and you just went looking for answers you felt comfortable with?
I give vpw's and lcm's comments about many preachers about much worth as I do about how well the war in Iraq is going. (not much).
If you read or listened to Swindoll, Stanley and even Hagee, you'll see a richness of study and knowledge that allows them to dig deep. TWI allegedly taught the Word only, but even Jesus used parables, so cut preachers some slack OK.
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jardinero
Hi Hap:
I would agree with you on "as independent as each leader wants it to be" which is my point exactly. Some of them lived off the twi tit for so long, that they naturally gravitated to their comfort level of The Way Tree structure (not matter what they call it, or how "independent" their licensese read -- it's how they PRACTICE IT).
For example. When J*e Guar*ni was alive, he was still the state leader of the Geer group in IL. He and Bob Card*n were the two top dogs and cooperated with each other, but the structure and corps grads in the group just "played twi". Now, don't get me wrong, Joe was a buddy of mine. Loved him and love his family, but that's how the structure was. And Joe and Bob were the least legalistic of all the group, but the boys in the band, whew!
Now under Joe were the state leaders: Howard Ste*n in WI, Rich Watk*ns in IN, Greg Bernard*ni in IL, Al Wajnb*rg moved up to IL to join the group right before Joe's death and I forget the guy in MI. They all worked together as the "leadership" and then had the same local area, branch and twig structure, though they didn't call it that, but in practice - - don't step out of line from the party line.
Same deal in Calif. You have Do*g Seed in No. Cal, D*n M*ran in So. Cal. - - and little Geer satellites all over the state. The do their state summer camp and all the geerites come out of the woodwork. It's a little less structured than the midwest, but pretty much the same deal - - don't step out of line. Again, Doug and Dan are friends - - I could pick up the phone and talk to either one today and not have a problem with either one, but just don't choose to play way tree with them.
How about the NE? You have J*rry C*rr, et al. You Northeasterners who've been there want to chime in?????
So yes, Hap. It's as independent as each group in that each local guy has to apply for his own license and kick in his percentage of his local meeting and class fee take to the Geer retirement fund, but the practice I have observed says something entirely different. They are technically independent with their own name and bank accounts, yes. But the "likemindedness" or you're "off the Word", the "our Father in the Word" mentality, the respector of men as "THE men of God" stuff, runs a bit thick for my taste. YMMV.
J.
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socks
My completely unqualified opinion of Geer's Class Franchise is very low. I've never attended it so only know what I've heard, that it's a reworked version of PFAL, without the personality and with some of the material shaved down.
I guess I have to wonder why anyone who was well versed in PFAL and wanted to offer a "class" as the ideal way to reach and teach people would buy someone else's class....? Given that so much training and time and study went into the 3 part series by so many people it seems like it would make sense to teach your own, do your own "class". That way every class would be live and could be tailored to that specific group. Live presentation will always be more dynamic and effective because - it's live. Real people. I could see use of different kinds of media to enhance a class-style presenation. Can't see why anyone would rely primarily on a canned presentation though. To pay for the right to do so seems like a waste of money when you could just do it yourself. Maybe there's some shine that comes from having "Geer's class"? Dunno.
Why ex-Wayfers flock to this kind of thing may not be complicated or "spiritual" at all. Maybe it's just a comfort level - people tend to like what they know, what they're familiar with. If someone liked all the teaching and the home fellowship arrangement before, but didn't like the authoritarian management approach, it probably makes sense to find another church that has the one, and not the other. So somebody says "we're moving down the street to my house, see you Tuesday at 7:30", that's probably just find and dandy. Until it isn't, inevitably there will be friction of one kind or another between people. As long as it doesn't get too hot and heavy, everything's okay.
We've visited several churches in our area, and it's certainly not a vast wasteland out here. There's some pretty interesting, inspiring and helpful things going on.
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alfakat
choice????HAH!! their way or the hiway, watta choice....
It is the same half-baked stuff from TWI, re-done. Most of 'em are not Bad Guys but they are buying the sameold-same old that vic was dishing out.
I am happy to think and believe as I see fit and to extend the same to everyone who ever sits in my home for a bible study, fellowship or home church meeting. I hope to God they disagree!, how will they or I ever LEARN anything if all we ever do is barf back the same info time after time. I enjoy hearing and reading what other men and women have to say, it keeps you thinking and allows God to teach you.
No more stupid stale ex-way classes for moi, thank you!!
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TOMMYZ
Jardinero, if you're interested, here's Bob's web site: WWW.GCFNAPERVILLE.ORG
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likeaneagle
twinky
I am speaking on behalf of CABSF here. I was in Bruce's fellowship until June of 06. I can tell you from first hand experience, he works very hard to teach with integrity, and maintains a very loving ministry. You quoted from his website and I can tell you what you see is what you get....No one tryed to dictate my life while I participated. His teachings are based on the love of God and are very practical in life...It opened my eyes to love again after leaving a spiritualy abusing ministry..
I do not get caught up with CES,CFF, or any titles reguarding who follows who. If it helps people to heal and move on in life heck I would go...but if they teach Law...I will be in the back row ready to exit..
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TOMMYZ
FYI, Joe Jr. recently decided to continue his dad's ministry. He's a great guy and it will be interesting to watch someone who wasn't a part of the TWI system.
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jardinero
Thanks for the link TommyZ. I think Bob C. is a great guy and from all I've heard has helped a great many of very waybrained, hurt, disillusioned folks (particularly those coming off years on staff at twi) re-group and start over over the past 20 years or so.
Joe Jr. is a prince among men. Great young man. Certainly has the heart of both his dad and mom. Thanks for sharing that piece of news.
J.
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