i was anti-church before twi--which was one of the reasons i was attracted to twi to begin with. after i left, the idea that i would go back to anything even remotely like church never even crossed my mind--i was never a joiner until twi, and went back to being a non-joiner soon after bolting. the only time i ever even thought about it was when i had kids and wondered if they should be brought up with some identifying label. (i'd been told that kids need that sense of belonging, or some such, and that they'd feel weird if they were the only kids around without a religion.) but in the end, i realized i still agreed with the old way sentiment, "religion is the cruelest thing i know," and decided against any formal religion for my kids.
and you know what? they're both great, goodhearted people (21 and 16), of strong moral and ethical character, and show no indication that being religion-free hurt them in any way. in fact, they THANK me for it.
I'm like Jard. I do whatever I'm in the mood to do or have a need for.
There's a local Methodist church that I attend. Occasionally I'll go to the Woman's Sunday School and nothing else - other times I go to the "contemporary" service where we sing modern songs, have a band, and the message is very light and not really the focus of the meeting - praising God is - then, when I'm in the mood, I'll dress up and go to what I call "big church" ^_^ It's the "traditional" church service with the beautiful choir, classic hymns and typical sermon. Then again, sometimes, it's just me, alone in my garden pulling weeds.
I LOVE the church and the folks. After the "contemporary" service they have what they call "Asbury Cafe" where we sit around with the donuts leftover from the morning, drink coffee, cokes or smoothies and talk about the service or whatever the need is at the time. IF I were to be a more regular member, I'd join the handbell choir. I was in handbells at the church I grew up in and absolutely loved it (and it doesn't require an ability to sing in key). I'm just not ready to commit to anything like that.
The church also has the small home groups like Suda mentioned, but the thought of meeting in anyone's home ever again gives me the heebee jeebies. :ph34r:
I love, Love, LOVE my life now and the freedom to do whatever I need to for my own peacefulness.
I went to church before twi, and I've gone to church after twi. I think churches after twi are much better. That is the whole reason I got involved in twi because I wasn't finding what I wanted or needed at a church. I think many churches caught on to this over the years and gave people something better than before.
I think to say you tried church before twi and still don't like them is a little unfair because a lot of them (not all) have changed. A lot I've attended post twi are not about ritual and being accounted for at the service. I've been to many where the sermon was a lesson on how to handle life not just being preached at. It was nothing like a Believer's Family Class....ewww!!!
WN!, I concur! Churches these days are NOTHING like they used to be and certainly NOT A D@MN THING like TWI had us to believe. They also don't teach 1/1000000000th of the things TWI says they do.
Maybe not all prefer home fellowships for the "reasons" given in this statement. Maybe some (such as WhiteDove) are not "clinging" at all but have tried both and prefer the home fellowships over churches.
I don't think TWI invented home fellowships. In fact I know they didn't...My wife's family in the old U.S.S.R certainly had them. Now maybe some prefer that route out of habit from TWI life because they feel comfortable in such a setting. That can be the same reason for some going to churches. Before TWI I think it was mine. It certainly allowed me to hide pretty well.
Lifted Up is quite right they did not, nor did I think that they did or for that matter do I recall them claiming to have. HELLO !!! Book of Acts....
And neither is this the reason for avoiding church......
Is there a fear that you might be taught something contrary to what you learned in TWI – and that what you learned there might be wrong? Or is it a disdain for those teachings – a smug sense of superiority and arrogance that came with the territory of knowing the “only truth”.
I have no fear of churches, as I said before I on occasion attend some, obviously one can not know everything about a church from one attendance, but you can generally get an idea about where they are concerning the Bible. One of the main things I look for is spiritual understanding, I'm not interested in someone's best guess, nor am I interested in spending time hearing things I know to be not true. I would not go to a school that taught wrong information in their classes either so why would I want to go to a church that does? Nothing makes my skin crawl faster than the I'm stoned out on JESUS repetitive trance music either, I'm late for the door.
I also don't go there to hear about some persons new book on how he thinks we should live our life while paying him millions so he can live his the way he wants to, in luxury I might add. How dumb is that? There are some things like that in life once you learn them, you don't need to question them when someone thinks different. Likewise I know who Jesus is and who God is and I took a bath this morning don't need another but thanks anyway. My dog and grandmother are not floating around in the sky either. And thank you but I am aware of my short comings I don't need to be kept dwelling on them I'd rather be reminded that I am forgiven and can do better. So you see what's the point of going and sitting where the truth is not spoken, a Singles club? Pass, or maybe chicken dinner? Now I'll admit some of those ladies make a mean chicken dinner, but even that is not worth the price paid for "fowl doctrine"........
I personally find tht if you live in a very small town (like me) that church can be one of your VERY FEW social outlets.
I live in a place that is likened to Mayberry RFD...except with a few more cops.
But we all know how we worship the Lord is in how we treat his greatest commandment. To love Him with all our heart mind and soul....and the big #2....to love one another like that. Most of us have a hard enough time dealing with those tall orders
I think I have a residue issue from twi about church.
not that they have wrong doctrine or they are filled with idols but I just cant get into the whole
pastor speak thing going on..
hard to describe.. like at a testimony I recently went to when she metioned she was good friends with the pastors wife many in the aduience perked up and wanted to hear what she had to say suddenly she was all good (and my friend and I are still yawning).
I had a lady actualy introduce herself to me as a relative of the pastor and IM like thinking "um so what?" I think i was suppose to get excited and I didnt.
pastor says pastor taught all that type of talk I do not know just gets my skin crawling a bit.
i do not want to be a pastor so it isnt like im jealous or feel supreme with all my way teaching and years of bible study.. it is more like I cant feel inferior that is the problem.
hard to explain but it is a problem and why I do not join in as fast as I should probably.
I don't think TWI invented home fellowships either. They were en vogue back in the First Century Church if you'll recall.....
I have been to a few churches after TWI, but one thing that has been rough to handle is all of the "recruiting" that I have experienced when checking out a church. The folks are wonderful and well meaning, but I see the same "enthusiasm" and comittment to get me and my wife and kids to be members of that particular church, and, it is a bit hard to take. I have been quizzed on the "type of Christian salvation" I believe in, and all of that. Do you believe in once saved always saved, water baptism, the gifts of the spirit, and on and on. It reminded me of me when someone would simply come to my twig once in awhile, and instead of me just plain being happy to see them even once in awhile, I wanted more involvement fomr them. And so for me, no churches for us...
Yeah, I know, I just haven't found the "right one". But so far, it all seems to be the same to me. I did go to one in the little town of Haines that I liked. There was a deposed Presbyterian minister who started his own fellowship in the all purpose room of the Haines Senior Citizen Center because the churched kicked him out because he would go with the new "gay" ruling thing that happened awhile back. At any rate, half the church agreed with him, and the other half didn't. And so, he tokk half of them, and moved into this senior citizens center on Sundays. And so, me amd my entire family showed up one Sunday morning only to find out that it was his very last service and that he was "hanging up the Cloth" for awhile. Boy, you should have seen the bewildered look on his face when our whole family of six walked in there! It was kind of a look that said; "Geez! I am quitting, and here is this whole Family coming to check us out! What am I actually doing?" Finally, about halfway through the meeting, with him giving us curious looks, he finally stopped and asked who we were, and how is it that we decided to come to his metting or whatever. And so, we introduced ourselves, and it was kinda neat. He did give it up though, for he needed to work and pay bills. We became friends, and have enjoyed spending time together. He reminded me of a burned out TWI rev, to tell you the truth. Tired of being told what to tell people is the Truth, etc....
Lifted Up is quite right they did not, nor did I think that they did or for that matter do I recall them claiming to have. HELLO !!! Book of Acts....
I don't think TWI invented home fellowships either. They were en vogue back in the First Century Church if you'll recall.....
Come on guys, you know Lifted was referring to modern home fellowships; after all big ol' church buildings have been the norm for at least 1600 years, probably more, and Lifted Up assuredly knew about the Book of Acts <_<
TWI certainly promoted their home fellowships as part and parcel of the "Word that hadn't been taught since the first century".
Churches are where Christian type people meet. My experience in churches has been very humbling. I have met so many people, with so many gifts and ministries, that I can't even begin to describe. I have been put to shame so many times, by the amazing talents of those who profess Jesus as Lord, and even among those who don't. :D
Tis humbling, to be among those whom God has called. Seems like they like to hang out in church. :B)
I do remember VP spending considerable time one night talking to us about one Rev. Paul Cho, (a Korean?) minister who went into Communist China and set up what he called "cell groups" that were just like twigs. And there was some publication that he had us read concerning it, and VP seemed to give the man great credit for his efforts in moving the gospel of Christ amongst the Chinese in this "cell group" manner. I believe (if I remember correctly) that Cho attributed the idea to what he had seen in the book of Acts....
One of the greatest things about church is that we all meet on equal ground. The thing we have in common is our faith in Jesus Christ. Seems it doesn't matter so much what one does for a living, or what one's social status is, outside of church. Everybody seems to be on equal footing. That's what I love about it. ;)
Hi EX10. Sounds nice. But if you'd noticed my first post here, you will se what I have found so far. Although, I must admit, I haven't looked too intensely, and maybe because of that, I haven't found what would be nice. I guess I am somewhat "burned out". Ever heard of that? And so, I am happy for your Fam...... :)
I just thought maybe some of you would be interested to hear some of the things taught in a church I used to attend when I lived in San Diego. The pastor is a really down to earth guy who wears khaki pants and hawaiian shirts each Sunday. He also surfs. He is in his early 50s, and he definitely knows how to reach people where they are. He is what I would call a cool pastor and is really likeable. He is unlike any other pastor I have known.
I learned a lot about giving without expecting anything in return. I was involved in their kindness ministry. I saw people blown away that someone would wash their car or windows without accepting anything in return. The kindness ministry wasn't about inviting people to church or making known we were from there. People would ask "Why are you doing this?" We would reply "Just because we want to show God's love."
For those of you looking for a church who doesn't teach the trinity, you may be hard-pressed to find it unless you go to a universal unitarian type setting. That kind of setting may turn you off more than the trinitarianism will. I think being in a trinitarian environment allowed me to see Jesus more than I had in all my years in twi. I am not advocating believing in the trinity. I am saying that you should consider that twi didn't have the whole trinity thing right. IMHO experiencing extremes on both sides help you to find the balance better.
Come on guys, you know Lifted was referring to modern home fellowships; after all big ol' church buildings have been the norm for at least 1600 years, probably more, and Lifted Up assuredly knew about the Book of Acts <_<
Yea, thanks Oak, though I dont't think anyone was thinking that, being involved in TWI, I didn't know about the book of Acts.
The reason I brought up the home fellowship thing is that there seems a tendency by many to treat anyone who does something the way it is/was done in TWI as hooked or "waybrained" or something like that, whether or not it is the standard or accepted way of doing something. The funniest example...to me anyway...I can think of right now is the recent "5 x 3" card thread. I have seen TWI knocked for non-standard language..."opportunity" vs/ "problem", word changes from the standard in several songs, etc. So, when they use something that's standard language, such as "3 x 5" cards, we have to dowhat we accuse them of doing...change the language to "5 x 3" cards, because suddenly it is the standard terminology that has become "waybrained".
I don't want to downgrade Oak's response, because I think there is a some respect of me there. :)
I dont want to get off much on this in this thread, but I know how much easier it is to respect someone you know as a real person and not just an anonymous handle...and in this case, Oak and I have actually met.
Again - I forgot to put my orignial post in the context of LCM's regime -- especially the last few years of it.
He'd teach something different, or wierd (Eve was a lesbian) or scream and spit about something going on in the world -- and then say "and if you don't like what I'm teaching - you can go to CHURCH!" As if going to church was like going to one of Dante's circles of Hell.
I think there are many people who just haven't opened their eyes up to the fact that there is more to church than the particular doctrine of the denomination. As it's been stated by many in this thread -- there's a social benefit as well as a spiritual benefit - especially in a church with a large congregation that has more resources and more choices to offer.
I think many ex-TWI, especially those from LCM's latter years, still think of church as ungodly or evil or filled with ulterior motives.
I have nothing against home fellowships and am sorry if I came off that way. The purpose of my question "What's wrong with church?" was simply to ask those who went from TWI to a TWI-like spin-off why they went in that direction, how they felt about attending a mainstream church and why they wouldn't.
Like I said, I don't attend anything right now - tried church and enjoyed it for the most part - but have taken a different turn in my beliefs - which is why I no longer go to church. Even if I still believed what I was taught in TWI, I wouldn't attend a spin-off because of the incredible similarities they have to TWI. I had almost 30 years of that. I don't think I ever want to sing "At Calvery" again....
ex10, you bring up an interesting point: "churches are where christian-type people meet."
it really hadn't occured to me, but that's one of the main reasons i DON'T go to church. christian-type people aren't my kind of people. i've got no problem with "love god and love your neighbor," but that ain't all christians are about. and what they ARE about gives me the willies.
to be fair, it's not just christians. i make it a habit of avoiding just about any group that professes "special knowledge that makes them special." i'm more interested in understanding what makes us all the same, what makes us all interdependent, than in what separates us. we don't need any help being separate, being at odds with one another.
if churches (synagogues, mosques, etc) could do their thing without breeding elitism, maybe i'd feel differently about them. but they can't--these institutions exist because they think "we're right," and therefore everyone else is wrong. spoken or unspoken, that's what they're about. it has to be--otherwise, they'd all still be whatever came before them. we wouldn't have thousands of different flavors of christianity, for example, if people didn't keep splitting off because of some disagreement or other. and people wouldn't be disagreeing if they didn't think they were right and everyone else was wrong.
I don't have anything against churches...whatever decorates your cookies...
All I would say is...It's your own personal faith that counts...whatever inspires your life towards Christian faith and behavior and not religious ritual should be sought after....just my opinion. :)
I dont think I would mind going to a church..I do come from LCM later days. Altho, I would very bothered if they has alot symbols and Icons on the walls..I think it would make me feel like I had to bend and bow and kneel..that would be uncomfortbul. What would be good is the community aspect of it, being able to contribute and meet good people without all the class (fluff).
Yup...without the big L-O-V-E involved...church is just another bunch of people looking for a building or a pastor or whatever to solve everything for them.
I currently work hard in my ministry I am involved with ...and half the time I walk away shaking my head.
BUT....I have to think perhaps that is why I am there. Most of these people do these "works" without Christ in mind...but yet what "Will SOMEONE THINK IF IDON'T"
I say screw it. If the Lord needs you and wants you to do it....your gonna find the resources and the strength somewhere.
Otherwise....gracefully decline. It's tough in the Deep South where we housewives are EXPECTED to pick up ALL the slack. But If I ain't got love in my heart when I am doing it.....what good is it to Jesus?
I'm learning to say no some...and I am feeling through my way when it is right to say yes.
I think this church venture has been an exceptional learning experience for me....even though it has almost drove me off the deep end a couple times.
But....I do so love all the members...and that love grows each day! Love is what it is all about. That's why I think we need fellowship. Be it church or a home study. If love prevails....everything else will be "gravy"
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coolchef
ok i am ready for attack.......but i enjoy ritual and going to rc mass once in a while....a big plus is that the wine is great!
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sprawled out
i was anti-church before twi--which was one of the reasons i was attracted to twi to begin with. after i left, the idea that i would go back to anything even remotely like church never even crossed my mind--i was never a joiner until twi, and went back to being a non-joiner soon after bolting. the only time i ever even thought about it was when i had kids and wondered if they should be brought up with some identifying label. (i'd been told that kids need that sense of belonging, or some such, and that they'd feel weird if they were the only kids around without a religion.) but in the end, i realized i still agreed with the old way sentiment, "religion is the cruelest thing i know," and decided against any formal religion for my kids.
and you know what? they're both great, goodhearted people (21 and 16), of strong moral and ethical character, and show no indication that being religion-free hurt them in any way. in fact, they THANK me for it.
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Belle
I'm like Jard. I do whatever I'm in the mood to do or have a need for.
There's a local Methodist church that I attend. Occasionally I'll go to the Woman's Sunday School and nothing else - other times I go to the "contemporary" service where we sing modern songs, have a band, and the message is very light and not really the focus of the meeting - praising God is - then, when I'm in the mood, I'll dress up and go to what I call "big church" ^_^ It's the "traditional" church service with the beautiful choir, classic hymns and typical sermon. Then again, sometimes, it's just me, alone in my garden pulling weeds.
I LOVE the church and the folks. After the "contemporary" service they have what they call "Asbury Cafe" where we sit around with the donuts leftover from the morning, drink coffee, cokes or smoothies and talk about the service or whatever the need is at the time. IF I were to be a more regular member, I'd join the handbell choir. I was in handbells at the church I grew up in and absolutely loved it (and it doesn't require an ability to sing in key). I'm just not ready to commit to anything like that.
The church also has the small home groups like Suda mentioned, but the thought of meeting in anyone's home ever again gives me the heebee jeebies. :ph34r:
I love, Love, LOVE my life now and the freedom to do whatever I need to for my own peacefulness.
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Nottawayfer
I went to church before twi, and I've gone to church after twi. I think churches after twi are much better. That is the whole reason I got involved in twi because I wasn't finding what I wanted or needed at a church. I think many churches caught on to this over the years and gave people something better than before.
I think to say you tried church before twi and still don't like them is a little unfair because a lot of them (not all) have changed. A lot I've attended post twi are not about ritual and being accounted for at the service. I've been to many where the sermon was a lesson on how to handle life not just being preached at. It was nothing like a Believer's Family Class....ewww!!!
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Belle
WN!, I concur!
Churches these days are NOTHING like they used to be and certainly NOT A D@MN THING like TWI had us to believe. They also don't teach 1/1000000000th of the things TWI says they do.
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WhiteDove
Lifted Up is quite right they did not, nor did I think that they did or for that matter do I recall them claiming to have. HELLO !!! Book of Acts....
And neither is this the reason for avoiding church......
I have no fear of churches, as I said before I on occasion attend some, obviously one can not know everything about a church from one attendance, but you can generally get an idea about where they are concerning the Bible. One of the main things I look for is spiritual understanding, I'm not interested in someone's best guess, nor am I interested in spending time hearing things I know to be not true. I would not go to a school that taught wrong information in their classes either so why would I want to go to a church that does? Nothing makes my skin crawl faster than the I'm stoned out on JESUS repetitive trance music either, I'm late for the door.
I also don't go there to hear about some persons new book on how he thinks we should live our life while paying him millions so he can live his the way he wants to, in luxury I might add. How dumb is that? There are some things like that in life once you learn them, you don't need to question them when someone thinks different. Likewise I know who Jesus is and who God is and I took a bath this morning don't need another but thanks anyway. My dog and grandmother are not floating around in the sky either. And thank you but I am aware of my short comings I don't need to be kept dwelling on them I'd rather be reminded that I am forgiven and can do better. So you see what's the point of going and sitting where the truth is not spoken, a Singles club?
Pass, or maybe chicken dinner? Now I'll admit some of those ladies make a mean chicken dinner, but even that is not worth the price paid for "fowl doctrine"........
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medic's wife
I personally find tht if you live in a very small town (like me) that church can be one of your VERY FEW social outlets.
I live in a place that is likened to Mayberry RFD...except with a few more cops.
But we all know how we worship the Lord is in how we treat his greatest commandment. To love Him with all our heart mind and soul....and the big #2....to love one another like that. Most of us have a hard enough time dealing with those tall orders
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pond
I think I have a residue issue from twi about church.
not that they have wrong doctrine or they are filled with idols but I just cant get into the whole
pastor speak thing going on..
hard to describe.. like at a testimony I recently went to when she metioned she was good friends with the pastors wife many in the aduience perked up and wanted to hear what she had to say suddenly she was all good (and my friend and I are still yawning).
I had a lady actualy introduce herself to me as a relative of the pastor and IM like thinking "um so what?" I think i was suppose to get excited and I didnt.
pastor says pastor taught all that type of talk I do not know just gets my skin crawling a bit.
i do not want to be a pastor so it isnt like im jealous or feel supreme with all my way teaching and years of bible study.. it is more like I cant feel inferior that is the problem.
hard to explain but it is a problem and why I do not join in as fast as I should probably.
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J0nny Ling0
I don't think TWI invented home fellowships either. They were en vogue back in the First Century Church if you'll recall.....
I have been to a few churches after TWI, but one thing that has been rough to handle is all of the "recruiting" that I have experienced when checking out a church. The folks are wonderful and well meaning, but I see the same "enthusiasm" and comittment to get me and my wife and kids to be members of that particular church, and, it is a bit hard to take. I have been quizzed on the "type of Christian salvation" I believe in, and all of that. Do you believe in once saved always saved, water baptism, the gifts of the spirit, and on and on. It reminded me of me when someone would simply come to my twig once in awhile, and instead of me just plain being happy to see them even once in awhile, I wanted more involvement fomr them. And so for me, no churches for us...
Yeah, I know, I just haven't found the "right one". But so far, it all seems to be the same to me. I did go to one in the little town of Haines that I liked. There was a deposed Presbyterian minister who started his own fellowship in the all purpose room of the Haines Senior Citizen Center because the churched kicked him out because he would go with the new "gay" ruling thing that happened awhile back. At any rate, half the church agreed with him, and the other half didn't. And so, he tokk half of them, and moved into this senior citizens center on Sundays. And so, me amd my entire family showed up one Sunday morning only to find out that it was his very last service and that he was "hanging up the Cloth" for awhile. Boy, you should have seen the bewildered look on his face when our whole family of six walked in there! It was kind of a look that said; "Geez! I am quitting, and here is this whole Family coming to check us out! What am I actually doing?" Finally, about halfway through the meeting, with him giving us curious looks, he finally stopped and asked who we were, and how is it that we decided to come to his metting or whatever. And so, we introduced ourselves, and it was kinda neat. He did give it up though, for he needed to work and pay bills. We became friends, and have enjoyed spending time together. He reminded me of a burned out TWI rev, to tell you the truth. Tired of being told what to tell people is the Truth, etc....
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Eagle
White Dove speaks the truth. Some churches teach too many "social" sermons. They can bore you out of your mind.
Eagle
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Oakspear
Come on guys, you know Lifted was referring to modern home fellowships; after all big ol' church buildings have been the norm for at least 1600 years, probably more, and Lifted Up assuredly knew about the Book of Acts <_<
TWI certainly promoted their home fellowships as part and parcel of the "Word that hadn't been taught since the first century".
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waysider
MEDIC'S WIFE--------Sounds like you've hit the "mother lode". Without the love of GOD it's all just a bunch of empty words.
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ex10
Oh good grief.
Churches are where Christian type people meet. My experience in churches has been very humbling. I have met so many people, with so many gifts and ministries, that I can't even begin to describe. I have been put to shame so many times, by the amazing talents of those who profess Jesus as Lord, and even among those who don't. :D
Tis humbling, to be among those whom God has called. Seems like they like to hang out in church. :B)
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J0nny Ling0
Yeah Medic's Wife, you hit the nail on the head. :)
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J0nny Ling0
I do remember VP spending considerable time one night talking to us about one Rev. Paul Cho, (a Korean?) minister who went into Communist China and set up what he called "cell groups" that were just like twigs. And there was some publication that he had us read concerning it, and VP seemed to give the man great credit for his efforts in moving the gospel of Christ amongst the Chinese in this "cell group" manner. I believe (if I remember correctly) that Cho attributed the idea to what he had seen in the book of Acts....
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ex10
One of the greatest things about church is that we all meet on equal ground. The thing we have in common is our faith in Jesus Christ. Seems it doesn't matter so much what one does for a living, or what one's social status is, outside of church. Everybody seems to be on equal footing. That's what I love about it. ;)
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J0nny Ling0
Hi EX10. Sounds nice. But if you'd noticed my first post here, you will se what I have found so far. Although, I must admit, I haven't looked too intensely, and maybe because of that, I haven't found what would be nice. I guess I am somewhat "burned out". Ever heard of that? And so, I am happy for your Fam...... :)
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Nottawayfer
I just thought maybe some of you would be interested to hear some of the things taught in a church I used to attend when I lived in San Diego. The pastor is a really down to earth guy who wears khaki pants and hawaiian shirts each Sunday. He also surfs. He is in his early 50s, and he definitely knows how to reach people where they are. He is what I would call a cool pastor and is really likeable. He is unlike any other pastor I have known.
I learned a lot about giving without expecting anything in return. I was involved in their kindness ministry. I saw people blown away that someone would wash their car or windows without accepting anything in return. The kindness ministry wasn't about inviting people to church or making known we were from there. People would ask "Why are you doing this?" We would reply "Just because we want to show God's love."
Canyon View Christian Church
For those of you looking for a church who doesn't teach the trinity, you may be hard-pressed to find it unless you go to a universal unitarian type setting. That kind of setting may turn you off more than the trinitarianism will. I think being in a trinitarian environment allowed me to see Jesus more than I had in all my years in twi. I am not advocating believing in the trinity. I am saying that you should consider that twi didn't have the whole trinity thing right. IMHO experiencing extremes on both sides help you to find the balance better.
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Lifted Up
Yea, thanks Oak, though I dont't think anyone was thinking that, being involved in TWI, I didn't know about the book of Acts.
The reason I brought up the home fellowship thing is that there seems a tendency by many to treat anyone who does something the way it is/was done in TWI as hooked or "waybrained" or something like that, whether or not it is the standard or accepted way of doing something. The funniest example...to me anyway...I can think of right now is the recent "5 x 3" card thread. I have seen TWI knocked for non-standard language..."opportunity" vs/ "problem", word changes from the standard in several songs, etc. So, when they use something that's standard language, such as "3 x 5" cards, we have to dowhat we accuse them of doing...change the language to "5 x 3" cards, because suddenly it is the standard terminology that has become "waybrained".
I don't want to downgrade Oak's response, because I think there is a some respect of me there. :)
I dont want to get off much on this in this thread, but I know how much easier it is to respect someone you know as a real person and not just an anonymous handle...and in this case, Oak and I have actually met.
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Hope R.
Again - I forgot to put my orignial post in the context of LCM's regime -- especially the last few years of it.
He'd teach something different, or wierd (Eve was a lesbian) or scream and spit about something going on in the world -- and then say "and if you don't like what I'm teaching - you can go to CHURCH!" As if going to church was like going to one of Dante's circles of Hell.
I think there are many people who just haven't opened their eyes up to the fact that there is more to church than the particular doctrine of the denomination. As it's been stated by many in this thread -- there's a social benefit as well as a spiritual benefit - especially in a church with a large congregation that has more resources and more choices to offer.
I think many ex-TWI, especially those from LCM's latter years, still think of church as ungodly or evil or filled with ulterior motives.
I have nothing against home fellowships and am sorry if I came off that way. The purpose of my question "What's wrong with church?" was simply to ask those who went from TWI to a TWI-like spin-off why they went in that direction, how they felt about attending a mainstream church and why they wouldn't.
Like I said, I don't attend anything right now - tried church and enjoyed it for the most part - but have taken a different turn in my beliefs - which is why I no longer go to church. Even if I still believed what I was taught in TWI, I wouldn't attend a spin-off because of the incredible similarities they have to TWI. I had almost 30 years of that. I don't think I ever want to sing "At Calvery" again....
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sprawled out
ex10, you bring up an interesting point: "churches are where christian-type people meet."
it really hadn't occured to me, but that's one of the main reasons i DON'T go to church. christian-type people aren't my kind of people. i've got no problem with "love god and love your neighbor," but that ain't all christians are about. and what they ARE about gives me the willies.
to be fair, it's not just christians. i make it a habit of avoiding just about any group that professes "special knowledge that makes them special." i'm more interested in understanding what makes us all the same, what makes us all interdependent, than in what separates us. we don't need any help being separate, being at odds with one another.
if churches (synagogues, mosques, etc) could do their thing without breeding elitism, maybe i'd feel differently about them. but they can't--these institutions exist because they think "we're right," and therefore everyone else is wrong. spoken or unspoken, that's what they're about. it has to be--otherwise, they'd all still be whatever came before them. we wouldn't have thousands of different flavors of christianity, for example, if people didn't keep splitting off because of some disagreement or other. and people wouldn't be disagreeing if they didn't think they were right and everyone else was wrong.
right? :P
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GrouchoMarxJr
I don't have anything against churches...whatever decorates your cookies...
All I would say is...It's your own personal faith that counts...whatever inspires your life towards Christian faith and behavior and not religious ritual should be sought after....just my opinion. :)
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likeaneagle
I dont think I would mind going to a church..I do come from LCM later days. Altho, I would very bothered if they has alot symbols and Icons on the walls..I think it would make me feel like I had to bend and bow and kneel..that would be uncomfortbul. What would be good is the community aspect of it, being able to contribute and meet good people without all the class (fluff).
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medic's wife
Johhny Lingo and Waysider...thanks :)
Yup...without the big L-O-V-E involved...church is just another bunch of people looking for a building or a pastor or whatever to solve everything for them.
I currently work hard in my ministry I am involved with ...and half the time I walk away shaking my head.
BUT....I have to think perhaps that is why I am there. Most of these people do these "works" without Christ in mind...but yet what "Will SOMEONE THINK IF IDON'T"
I say screw it. If the Lord needs you and wants you to do it....your gonna find the resources and the strength somewhere.
Otherwise....gracefully decline. It's tough in the Deep South where we housewives are EXPECTED to pick up ALL the slack. But If I ain't got love in my heart when I am doing it.....what good is it to Jesus?
I'm learning to say no some...and I am feeling through my way when it is right to say yes.
I think this church venture has been an exceptional learning experience for me....even though it has almost drove me off the deep end a couple times.
But....I do so love all the members...and that love grows each day! Love is what it is all about. That's why I think we need fellowship. Be it church or a home study. If love prevails....everything else will be "gravy"
God Bless you guys!!!
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