What's Wrong With Church?

[Hope R.]

Igotout and I were discussing the splinter groups that stemmed from TWI the other day. Some of the people in these groups have been out of TWI for 10 years or more. Yet they still cling to the home-fellowship as if it were an abomination to do otherwise. The format to the fellowship for most of these groups is still the same as well:

Sing – Pray – Sing - Announcements

Sing (softly) - Manifestations

Teaching (20 minutes)

Tithe

Sing

Cookies and coffee! (Oh boy!)

Gawd, it sounds so bland and boring. It makes me wonder why people haven’t tried … (insert “Jaws” music here)…. CHURCH!

Now, I don’t go to a church, or a splinter group or anything at the moment. We did go to a nice, large Methodist church for about a year after leaving TWI. We don’t go there anymore, and it has nothing to do with the church or the minister in charge – but that’s another thread…

One thing I noticed about this church, and have heard about many other churches is that they’re very diversified. Besides several Sunday services to choose from, there are couples nights, singles nights, family spaghetti nights, classes for people with specific needs as well as bible studies, rock music services, and tons of volunteer opportunities – like helping others in need! The church we attended helped build a “Habitat for Humanity” home every year. They had missionary programs in Haiti and other third world countries.

Most of the congregation lived in our community. Their kids went to the same schools as our kids. We shopped in the same stores. We weren’t in someone’s living room, isolated from other points of view.

So – if you’re still a Christian – what’s wrong with church? Is there a fear that you might be taught something contrary to what you learned in TWI – and that what you learned there might be wrong? Or is it a disdain for those teachings – a smug sense of superiority and arrogance that came with the territory of knowing the “only truth”.

I know someone who had been in TWI all his adult life, and attended a splinter group when he was kicked out with a bunch of others. He’s been sitting in a living room with the same kind of people, singing the same songs and hearing the same type of manifestations and teachings for over 30 years. There are seldom any new attendees. There’s no sense of community or charity there. Just the same-old same-old. He – and others like him – would have a great time going to a big, lively, active church! His social life would have a totally different outlook! But the mention of it gives him the willies.

I’m not putting anyone down who attends a splinter group. I’m just wondering why they would never check out something that might be better – or different! What's the problem? As the poem suggests... "It isn't the church... it's you!"

Whaddya think?

[excathedra]

something about comfort and familiar maybe ? or fear ?

[Nottawayfer]

I learned first-hand that everything I was taught in twi about church was dead-set wrong. Church doesn't suck. I had some major breakthroughs in my life by going to the church I chose. So I am of the opinion that there can be some great things at church. My women's small group really helped me to deal emotionally with some things I hadn't dealt with my whole life. It was very healing. I learned about a REAL relationship with God too. It wasn't about being a "true worshipper" who speaks in tongues. I rarely speak in tongues today. I don't miss it. But I crave worship service at church.

That's my experience. But I went to a few churches before I found what I needed. It was worth the search too IMHO.

I don't shove church down people's throats. I don't believe in that.

[Sunnyfla]

Igotout and I were discussing the splinter groups that stemmed from TWI the other day. Some of the people in these groups have been out of TWI for 10 years or more. Yet they still cling to the home-fellowship as if it were an abomination to do otherwise. The format to the fellowship for most of these groups is still the same as well:

Sing – Pray – Sing - Announcements

Sing (softly) - Manifestations

Teaching (20 minutes)

Tithe

Sing

Cookies and coffee! (Oh boy!)

Gawd, it sounds so bland and boring. It makes me wonder why people haven’t tried … (insert “Jaws” music here)…. CHURCH!

Now, I don’t go to a church, or a splinter group or anything at the moment. We did go to a nice, large Methodist church for about a year after leaving TWI. We don’t go there anymore, and it has nothing to do with the church or the minister in charge – but that’s another thread…

One thing I noticed about this church, and have heard about many other churches is that they’re very diversified. Besides several Sunday services to choose from, there are couples nights, singles nights, family spaghetti nights, classes for people with specific needs as well as bible studies, rock music services, and tons of volunteer opportunities – like helping others in need! The church we attended helped build a “Habitat for Humanity” home every year. They had missionary programs in Haiti and other third world countries.

Most of the congregation lived in our community. Their kids went to the same schools as our kids. We shopped in the same stores. We weren’t in someone’s living room, isolated from other points of view.

So – if you’re still a Christian – what’s wrong with church? Is there a fear that you might be taught something contrary to what you learned in TWI – and that what you learned there might be wrong? Or is it a disdain for those teachings –

a smug sense of superiority and arrogance that came with the territory of knowing the “only truth”.

I know someone who had been in TWI all his adult life, and attended a splinter group when he was kicked out with a bunch of others. He’s been sitting in a living room with the same kind of people, singing the same songs and hearing the same type of manifestations and teachings for over 30 years. There are seldom any new attendees. There’s no sense of community or charity there. Just the same-old same-old. He – and others like him – would have a great time going to a big, lively, active church! His social life would have a totally different outlook! But the mention of it gives him the willies.

I’m not putting anyone down who attends a splinter group. I’m just wondering why they would never check out something that might be better – or different! What's the problem? As the poem suggests... "It isn't the church... it's you!"

Whaddya think?

Yup, that was me.

It took me years to be able to admit that what I was taught could very well be wrong.

I go to a wonderful church now. I'm involved in a Women's Bible Study. I don't feel superior anymore and

THAT in itself was freeing to me.

[pond]

well you know it is because they teach wrong doctrine!!!!

i say as a joke but THAT is a major problem in many of these folks who have formed what they believe is truth from the bible and will not consider anything eles.

John S.( a leader of STF previously CES) just recently sent out a tape saying he struggled with tolerating other christians beliefs.. and is trying hard to overcome this to the good of having fellowship and working well within the body of Christ.

he talks about the problem of valuing doctrine over relationships.

the name of the tape is"The balance of truth & Love: valuing right doctrine and right relationships"

In twi we were instilled with the belief system that the word the word and nothing but the word!!!

remember? how can we forget right?

well some got a little rabid , and continue ,to be I know it is a common outcome of the association with twi.

i do not go to church , because i study on my own for doctrines sake and honestly i find the really churchy members want me to become more involved than i would like at this time.

because if i became involved at some point somone would have to admit I do not agree on what may have been taught.. and ya know i just do not have the energy for that type of relationship in my life.. ever again.

i do go but I do not "join". haha

[jardinero]

I sort of take a "smorgasbord" approach to church. Sometimes I'm hungry for community, spiritual food, times of worship, singing, prayer, etc.; other times I'm not. After visiting about a half dozen churches regularly, I visit 2 or 3 based on what it is about that church I enjoy.

There's one large church that has some great singles, women, teen groups and also is large enough that they have great choirs, orchestra, drama and dance to supplement their special services (I love to go there for Christmas and Easter services). Sometimes I want church, but want to be a little "invisible", so I go there.

I more often go to a small, newer church (3 years old). The pastor is the son of a friend of mine and man, can this guy teach and inspire and bring perspective to life! It's a lot of young singles and families who are all very involved in community - - food kitchens, inter-church prayer meetings (we're up to 30 churches that participate), mission trips, legal clinics for the poor, neighborhood "watches" in crime-ridden and poor areas, urban youth programs, tutoring, etc.

And sometimes, when I'm in the process of weeding my own garden, I don't want to be with anyone but God and just do my own thing - - worship, prayer, bitching and moaning about life and sometimes just overwhelming joy to be in His presence.

Yeah, Hope. I tried the splinter groups. Lots of dead wood there, I would agree.

J.

[pond]

I also think some refuse to be led because of their involvement in the Way. they are afraid of trusting any group or leader.

or they want and this is the more common problem a leader who will give them all the answers so they do not become resposible for their own life.

a church minister has to get real and tell them how to manage without the co-dependent kick many had in twi.

out of the cult still in the thinking of it types.

[bliss]

For us, true worship is when you are "praising'' God.

We didn't do any of that in fellowship (we thought we were with manifestations, but remember, they were ''from'' God, not ''to HIM")

We love church and all the ''transparency'' that goes on individually. I never knew what humility was until I went to church. (the right one for us of course)

I am not going to judge why anyone continues to go to a home style fellowship, it's just SO NOT FOR ME!

I get the heebeejeebees when I think of ''Open with prayer, sing a song......manifest........teaching.......abs.........oh wait I forgot the announcements............................" :blink:

[Linda Z]

Hope asked:

So – if you’re still a Christian – what’s wrong with church? Is there a fear that you might be taught something contrary to what you learned in TWI – and that what you learned there might be wrong? Or is it a disdain for those teachings – a smug sense of superiority and arrogance that came with the territory of knowing the “only truth”.

I don't attend a church for the same reason I don't attend a splinter group fellowship , really: I dislike predictability and ritual. I know, some say their fellowships are anything but routine, and I'm sure they're telling the truth. And I hear that church services have changed a lot in the past 20 or 30 years, too. That's great. I'm just not interested right now. Maybe I will be at some point in the future. Occasionally I miss the fellowship, but between work and family, it's not like I'm isolated or anything.

I spent the first couple decades of my life attending Sunday School and church and it became boring after a while. Same hymns, stand up, sit down, read a canned group response to a canned reading by the minister. (Sorta like twi became to me toward the end.) I also checked out several churches in my mid-20s, and they were either too "hellfire and brimstone" for my taste or, again, boring.

I'm happy for those who feel at home in whatever setting they choose, whether it's a church or a CES (or whatever it is now) or CFF fellowship--whatever. I think people can learn and be encouraged and comforted and enjoy the fellowship wherever they decide to go, because God looks on our hearts and can see to it that those things happen if we have the desire and the humility.

In fact, although I would never, ever, ever in a million years consider going back to a twi fellowship, I'm sure there are people enjoying themselves there, for the same reason. God is not limited by the limitations of the people who speak in His name.

[medic's wife]

I was never much for church and somehow I have gotten the wonderful title as "founding member" of a small new church here in Alabama. What that means is I get to paint and work my hiney off LOL.

But....I can honestly say I adore the fellowship, but I do not agree with the doctrine always, and I know my hubby feels the same. So I sort of treat it like this....I take what I can use and I leave the rest there....

I usually walk away from each service with something...a new friend....a more positive outlook..perhaps something in the Word of God that had always escaped my attention. I just know for me that being among believers is the most important thing. With Hubby over in Iraq, they kind of act as a surrogate family for me.

But, one thing my husband has taught me is that I had better supplement the teachings there with studies on my own. I'm very grateful to him for showing me it is "OK" for me to do that.

Blessngs to all!!!

Dana

[ChattyKathy]

I attend a church of a little over 12,000 people. I serve in a couple capacities and it is the sweetest thing in the world for me. I can't imagine anything different now.

[Ductape]

There is just something about getting dressed up to sit in a crowd that doesn’t appeal to me.

[Eagle]

Splinter groups can be almost as legalistic as TWI depending on the group. I always thought Geerite groups clung too much to Wierwille doctrine as if he had been a god or something. To disagree put you out in the cold. They were friendly as long as you agreed with them. One slight deviation and no one hung around you.

CFF was a little more tolerant and does follow Wierwille. I can't for sure say they worship Wierwille because I have seen some additional research there past Wierwille, such as further teaching of the Mystery. They disagree with Wierwille there. That is one example.

Shroyer is good, but some fellowships that follow CFF seem to get out of control when they are trying to impress either Shroyer, Clapp, or a top clergyman. We had an experience where a local fellowship some years back was rollercoastered by other fellowships. Literally. I doubt Shroyer learned of it. We didn't "turn them in" like someone from TWI would do but decided to just tell them not to do it again. The fellowship finally broke away from CFF because they didn't stop. The leader did not blame Shroyer or Clapp, just thought it was time to hang it up and be independent.

I know STF or CES like Bullinger quite a bit, as do I, but not completely. I haven't read enough CES material to know if they are one hundred percent with Bullinger on everything or not. I know I am not.

I don't know anything about Vince Finnegan or other splinter groups.

My wife and I broke completely and just went to church. Church is tough in that finding one suiting you takes time. There is a little legalism in most churches, some "over-adoration" of the pastors there, snooty people who think that because they have postions of authority or celebrity status in the organization honestly do treat others like bugs to be swatted away.

There are great churches out there though and the posts I just read testify to it. And I can't blame anyone after experiencing TWI that don't attend church or fellowship. I just hope wounds heal.

Some of them are VERY deep.

God Bless,

Eagle

Edited August 28, 2006 by Eagle

[Nottawayfer]

There is just something about getting dressed up to sit in a crowd that doesn’t appeal to me.

I never dress up to go to church. I wear every day clothes, and most churches are OK with that. If they aren't, then I assess whether I am getting much out my attendance and may go elsewhere.

[andy Bear]

I found this site looking for a church that teaches JC is not God . I happy with people go to church with even do not believe everything they teach. I learned a lot . and happy not to hearing cult teaching tapes anymore .I known there is time I going to have explain what I believe . Thank GOD it's not the TWI brand of truth anymore.

Edited August 28, 2006 by andy Bear

[Suda]

The new "hot thing" for many churches around here is small groups. This is different from your Sunday School class. It's a group of about 12 or so people that get together, often in each other's homes, once a week to study topics of interest in the Bible. They are also prayer partners. Sounds a lot like home fellowships to me.

I attended church for quite a while when my children were young. Was asked to leave, and never found another one I enjoyed. Then a new home fellowship run by former corps started here, and I've been going ever since. But we don't follow the "agenda" posted above. May or may not sing, and if we do there is no hand waving to direct us. May or may not have a "season of prayer". Can't remember the last time there were announcements. Have no leader, or coordinator. We just take turns being the "teacher" sharing what we're studying personally. And we take turns "leading" the meeting. Glad I'm a part of it!

[WhiteDove]

No it is the church.....

I don't go to church because I attended churches and groups before getting involved in The Way and there was nothing there. Home based fellowships offered something that was never in churches which was why I became involved with The Way. I wanted an understanding of the Bible and a relationship with God. Found both it works why would I want to go back to something that didn't?

Yes I have been to a few lately, still the same,social sermons and whatever the new purpose driven book of the month is. No thanks

Edited August 28, 2006 by WhiteDove

[Goey]

The main problem I have with "church" is the priority put upon the sermon - like it is the focal point or crux of the worship service. Listening to a sermon is not really "worship" at all. I think that many churchs are in a rut in this. The sermon is a dogmatic sacred cow - part of the church ritual.

Think about it. ... Usually about half or more of the service is dedicated to having one man or woman preach to a captive audience. It is one way communication only.

In that it is no different from the TWI and offshoot fellowships I was around --one way communication to a captive audience. TWI called it a "teaching" instead of a sermon. Little difference. Still a sacred cow and ritualistic part of the "service".

However, unlike my experience in TWI and offshoots, most churchs that I have atteneded have other functions, like sunday school/clases where you can ask questions, offer opinions & even share your heart -- and generally not be looked down upon for doing so.

Edited August 28, 2006 by Goey

[Lifted Up]

Back in TWI at Indy, my branch leader once had us each pick two verses, write them down, then he would construct his teaching as he picked each verse. One could always argue that he was showing his versatility or teaching ability, but I do know we were all listening since we were each involved.

[Lifted Up]

Igotout and I were discussing the splinter groups that stemmed from TWI the other day. Some of the people in these groups have been out of TWI for 10 years or more. Yet they still cling to the home-fellowship as if it were an abomination to do otherwise.

Maybe not all prefer home fellowships for the "reasons" given in this statement. Maybe some (such as WhiteDove) are not "clinging" at all but have tried both and prefer the home fellowships over churches.

I don't think TWI invented home fellowships. In fact I know they didn't...My wife's family in the old U.S.S.R certainly had them. Now maybe some prefer that route out of habit from TWI life because they feel comfortable in such a setting. That can be the same reason for some going to churches. Before TWI I think it was mine. It certainly allowed me to hide pretty well.

[skyrider]

I don't think TWI invented home fellowships.

Hardly.

My grandparents, back in the 1920s, had home fellowships.........and about once a month, an itinerant preacher made his rounds to their home.

[ChattyKathy]

It's amazing what they didn't originate.

[Lifted Up]

Right, so if someone prefers home fellowships, that doesnt mean they prefer them because they are afraid of an abomination.

[ChattyKathy]

Makes sense to me.

[Keith]

I think among a lot of ex-TWI there is a fear of churchs, but it a weird way. Let me share what's happening with my little group.

First I encourage people to go to other churches. And alot of them do. Since we meet at different times than most churches. Two families attends a church every Sunday, in addition to coming to our fellowship.

I've been trying to get our group to move into at least renting a building, but I've been getting a lot of flack about the idea. Not because of the money issue, but because meeting in a church building would be wrong. And guess who is hitting me with this the most often. The two familes who are attending one of the regular church every Sunday. Go figure.