There seems to be confusing between Mood altering drugs such as Valium and Antidepressants such as Trazodone, amitriptyline, lexpro etc.
Mood altering drugs such as Valium are instant emergency quick fixes.
no one should be on them for longer than a short period
Antidepressants are another category all together.
Some of the most common are taken at night.
They allow the brain to Turn off
For many of us with chronic depression the problem is compounded by the fact we never really get a full nights sleep, and we never get to REM sleep which is where the Id processes all the junk in your life. No REM sleep leads to disastrous consequences in the long run.
Sleeping pills knock you out.
Antidepressants turn your brain "Off: allowing you to get to REM sleep
I do not understand that reasoning at all this talk of "devil spirits"
I am not an advanced class grad so define "devil spirit" for me please.
since it is spirit I assume it would be invisable right? this "devil spirit" so how would one know about it?
a little voice told them?
yeah? tell that to your Dr. and a person may get a med change at that point.
honestly.
Even if and this is a HUGE if one does believe in spirits controling your mind if they are indeed "controling your mind" and you can not see it or stop it what would it help to know? Sounds like a fear tactic for control to me.
This is a part of twi I never ever bought into. I believe in a God that LOVES His people and wishes good health and a good life for all of His creation.
I do believe people are spiritual , as well as many other things it is how we were made.
I think it is a good thing.
When you throw in this "the devil made me do it" idealogy it turns into a tv sitcom show for me .
I have heard some heavy pentacostal or charismanic churches believe if your not healthy God doesnt love you, but that is not the mainstream christian position on health.
Pond---------- please forgive me if I seem to oversimplify my explanation of devil spirits. TWI used a progresive, building block approach to teaching this subject. Furthermore I am not suggesting you accept what I am presenting or that I personally subscribe to these beliefs. -------In the very beginning, Lucifer sat at GOD's right hand as his second in command. He plotted to overthrow GOD with the help of a group of angels he had won over to his cause. GOD was wise to the plan and cast him out of heaven along with his co-conspirators( 1/3 of the angels in heaven ) . They now roam the earth and seek physical entities to inhabit so they can act in a manner that will usurp GOD's glory and seek to take credit for good works(angels of light). These spirits are organized in a military fashion.(5 star general down to pfc. sort of thing.) TWI taught ,at least when I was involved that these spirit "possesions" or infestations if you prefer explained such things as cancer, suicide, alcoholism, sexual deviation,etc. They also taught these spirits explained such things as virtuousity in the art fields such as child piano prodigies. This is a tremendously oversimplified explanation but will hopefully begin to give some insight into the subject. Mental illness was one example of what they considered to be devil spirit possesion or infestation if you prefer. It puts a tremendous amount of guilt on someone who wants to serve GOD to think they may somehow be glorifying the devil.
Pond--------sorry. I left out some vital pieces of info. You asked how someone would know of the presenceof such spirits. This would be by operation of the manifestation of "discerning of spirits" wherein GOD tells you directly that a person has a spirit or spirits. Word of knowledge and word of wisdom would then come into play as GOD's way of instructing the "discerner" what if any thing should be done to correct the situation.(ie. casting out the spirits in the name of Jesus Christ). Compare this with VPW's own walk and demise and perhaps it will become apparent why some of these issues seem to be such a really huge subject of controversy.
yeah Im aware of the teachings, In fact SFT a spin off of twi just generated a tape this month taking a different approach to the manifestations teaching than the way offered.
Here is the thing waysider
The media has well documented the issue with the voices of God commanding a person to do horrible deeds for HIM because evil or devil spirts had possessed the person, and they need to help God (the voice of)
Yates the woman who drowned her 7 children in the bath tub told the dr. the reason she kill all 7 children was because she the children had devil spirits and God told her she needed to kill them so they would get to heaven.
I believe this whole line of thinking is generated by extreme unstable thinking and playing with fire.
As far as history before medicine or proper instiutions a person in an episode could and would become dangerous and try to kill their own self and others.. Anyone who protrays such behaviours would be linked to the devil who kills people hence the devil spirt label also behaviours that are really bazzare can and have manifested its self in the thongs of disease hence it was not the regular person personality he/she did not act like that before they are not being themself HENCE they must have gotten a devil spirit .
Medical society contributed little or nothing for those who suffered so some explanation was needed to why a person was not acting as their normal self.
today hopefully we can attain more satisfactory solution to disease.
Pond----------Thank you for responding to my post. As I stated, I neither condemn nor condone this line of thinking . I merely present it as an expository discourse. I might further add that we were sworn to an oath to never expose what I just exposed. This oath taking was done in what appeared to be a lighthearted spoof of pagan ritual, but one has to wonder how serious the expectations of secrecy may have been. Early on in the growth of TWI we were taught that revelation regarding the present could never ( and I emphasize never) contradict what had already been established in the scriptures. This , of course, was revised by the concept that revelation could change even though the scriptural evidence was weak and selective at best. I'm sure this seems like it is off topic from the discussion on mental illness but hopefully it may be found to be enlightening on what was taught on the subject.
There seems to be confusing between Mood altering drugs such as Valium and Antidepressants such as Trazodone, amitriptyline, lexpro etc.
Mood altering drugs such as Valium are instant emergency quick fixes.
no one should be on them for longer than a short period
Antidepressants are another category all together.
Some of the most common are taken at night.
They allow the brain to Turn off
For many of us with chronic depression the problem is compounded by the fact we never really get a full nights sleep, and we never get to REM sleep which is where the Id processes all the junk in your life. No REM sleep leads to disastrous consequences in the long run.
Sleeping pills knock you out.
Antidepressants turn your brain "Off: allowing you to get to REM sleep
With REM Sleep the depression is alleviated
I just learned this in the past year, TL. I have never been a 'good sleeper' and after being ill this winter it got much worse, to the point where I was having memory loss and speech halts. I felt fatigued but not really melancholy or unhappy, no tears etc. just tired.
I started on an antidepresent to see if it would help the situation (yup, trial and error-- I'd already tried a sleeping pill and didn't like it, felt groggy half the day.)
With in two weeks I was sleeping through the night. My energy level has gone way up!
but a serious mental illness doesnt leave a whole lot of room for choice for many.
before my sister took her paxil she went from a sexy modern working woman with a great life to a little frightened girl living in filth unable to leave her home.
today she is much better , and living a good life.
I think what happens is you think it will go away and sometimes it doesnt then it gets worse and then it is out of control and you end up paying a very high price for the struggle.
money and insurance is another issue for many who are sick.
"What I want to discuss is how people see those of us with mental illnesses."
I think CoolWaters' statement in the first post of this thread is key point for anyone in relation to mental illness. The person's viewpoint is critical - whether they are the doctor, patient, researcher, caregiver, a friend, relative, etc. in the situation. How a person sees the problem determines how they address the problem. My own viewpoint on mental illness has changed since leaving TWI. Like Belle, Bagpipes and a few others who have shared on this thread have indicated – it's important to stay informed on this stuff with the wealth of info out there – and especially because there's so much info out there and research is an on-going process - still exercising our critical thinking process to sort through items of interest and see what works.
I like what Medic's Wife said about finding what works for you and stop trying to please others. When I finally went to a psychiatrist and began taking an antidepressant – I really wasn't giving it my all in terms of effort. I still had such a stigma about this stuff – just from the old TWI ghosts in the machinery of my belief system. In my TWI days my general way of dealing with something like this was to: deny it was really there, attribute it to devil spirits, believe God for instantaneous healing. I think you can find a similar stigma among some mainstream Christian churches.
I thought a lot about Paul's thorn in the flesh – how he prayed to God 3 times to take it away – but God's answer was basically He would supply Paul with the strength to handle it [II Corinthians 12: 7-10]. I also thought about James 5:14 "Is any of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord." Oil is one of the best-known ancient medicines [see also Isaiah 1:6 and Luke 10:34]. I started adjusting my Christian viewpoint about my own experience. I would ask God for the strength and wisdom to manage my depression as well as asking Him to bless what medicine I was taking. I no longer saw God at odds with the medical community.
One day as I was having one of those really bad days at work yet was holding up really well – able to stay on task and concentrate - I thought "man, normally this kind of day would drive me way down in that big black hole" [this is after being on antidepressants for awhile and trying the cognitive therapy techniques from Burns' book]. I had a realization – or maybe it was more like I was trying to describe my experience. I pictured my depression as a deep rut in a dirt road – and I was on a bike pedaling along in that rut – stuck going along wherever it went – I couldn't seem to muster up enough strength to pedal up and out of the trench. That rut in the road will never go away. But this particular day I saw the cumulative effect of everything I was doing as finally giving me enough power to pedal up to my escape.
I'm no longer taking an antidepressant - I stopped taking it as I got better at monitoring my thinking patterns and could easily identify cognitive distortions. Believe me – I've got no qualms with going back on medication again if need be….The rut is still there. Some days it's harder than others working that cognitive therapy stuff – to keep from slipping back down into that rut……
I believe my sister had a drinking problem for many years.
I was sober I watched, she is still in denial about it.
what helped my sisters depression was the drepresion she drank, she really drank way to much and now claims it was "self medication" I believe all her alcoholism brought this on now excused because she can now take a pill . She began drinking as a teen.
to be sober must be difficult after forty years... and she didnt do well.
so the dr. put her on medicine. she said it changed her life. she no longer showed up at christmas with a case of beer and two bottles of booze (just for herself) not kidding or adding to her problem.)
sure she didnt get confronted about the booze as much it now took less to be drunk. to feel out of it .
for awhile .
she has always been a very high functioning drunk as many of my family seem to be untill it gets more difficult and more booze is needed and we get older and it just isnt as "cool as it used to be.
so the pill helped. she looks better seems to be better but I havelimited
my interactions with her after years of the mess. so who really knows how one is doing on the inside?
esp if they are not honest and have spent years in a denial trap.
we went to a reunion for the family and i reminded her five times to take her meds she was so drunk she kept forgetting. she is young has blood pressure out of control all kind of issues YET it is all about the panic and anxiety not the years of alcohol abuse. and now she has the "meds" to help. her poor body will not take much of this IM sure.
i think she will die young like elvis and marilyn why do the great ones struggle so with this type of life?
I asked her once if she ever would consider stopping the medicine and she siad no way.
the dr. never once address her drinking of course she would sing the song of denial . never saw it as a problem .. america supports alcohol abuse in so many ways,so here take this and this and now she has enough meds to not have to drink gallons a day and still carry on in a life of numbness.
If I could hear more say to me I was able to stop taking the drugs after I did some work onmyself I would be more hopeful about this avenue but frankly that is not what I hear i hear dr. givng people serious drugs to deal with life without even considering what is really going on.
A person who can not function who needs medicine to function and never confronts their own personal path in life just takes pills to cope does not get well nor does the quality of life improve or issues get resolved if that is the best we have to offer people I frankly do not think it is good enough.
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templelady
There seems to be confusing between Mood altering drugs such as Valium and Antidepressants such as Trazodone, amitriptyline, lexpro etc.
Mood altering drugs such as Valium are instant emergency quick fixes.
no one should be on them for longer than a short period
Antidepressants are another category all together.
Some of the most common are taken at night.
They allow the brain to Turn off
For many of us with chronic depression the problem is compounded by the fact we never really get a full nights sleep, and we never get to REM sleep which is where the Id processes all the junk in your life. No REM sleep leads to disastrous consequences in the long run.
Sleeping pills knock you out.
Antidepressants turn your brain "Off: allowing you to get to REM sleep
With REM Sleep the depression is alleviated
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Watered Garden
CW, if you come back to look at this it's important to me that you know that I love you.
Mental illness is no more necessarily caused by devil spirit possession than cancer is.
This world would suffer great loss if it were without you. Get healthy, stay healthy. Take one day, one hour, one nanosecond at a time.
God bless you. WG
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pond
I do not understand that reasoning at all this talk of "devil spirits"
I am not an advanced class grad so define "devil spirit" for me please.
since it is spirit I assume it would be invisable right? this "devil spirit" so how would one know about it?
a little voice told them?
yeah? tell that to your Dr. and a person may get a med change at that point.
honestly.
Even if and this is a HUGE if one does believe in spirits controling your mind if they are indeed "controling your mind" and you can not see it or stop it what would it help to know? Sounds like a fear tactic for control to me.
This is a part of twi I never ever bought into. I believe in a God that LOVES His people and wishes good health and a good life for all of His creation.
I do believe people are spiritual , as well as many other things it is how we were made.
I think it is a good thing.
When you throw in this "the devil made me do it" idealogy it turns into a tv sitcom show for me .
I have heard some heavy pentacostal or charismanic churches believe if your not healthy God doesnt love you, but that is not the mainstream christian position on health.
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waysider
Pond---------- please forgive me if I seem to oversimplify my explanation of devil spirits. TWI used a progresive, building block approach to teaching this subject. Furthermore I am not suggesting you accept what I am presenting or that I personally subscribe to these beliefs. -------In the very beginning, Lucifer sat at GOD's right hand as his second in command. He plotted to overthrow GOD with the help of a group of angels he had won over to his cause. GOD was wise to the plan and cast him out of heaven along with his co-conspirators( 1/3 of the angels in heaven ) . They now roam the earth and seek physical entities to inhabit so they can act in a manner that will usurp GOD's glory and seek to take credit for good works(angels of light). These spirits are organized in a military fashion.(5 star general down to pfc. sort of thing.) TWI taught ,at least when I was involved that these spirit "possesions" or infestations if you prefer explained such things as cancer, suicide, alcoholism, sexual deviation,etc. They also taught these spirits explained such things as virtuousity in the art fields such as child piano prodigies. This is a tremendously oversimplified explanation but will hopefully begin to give some insight into the subject. Mental illness was one example of what they considered to be devil spirit possesion or infestation if you prefer. It puts a tremendous amount of guilt on someone who wants to serve GOD to think they may somehow be glorifying the devil.
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waysider
Pond--------sorry. I left out some vital pieces of info. You asked how someone would know of the presenceof such spirits. This would be by operation of the manifestation of "discerning of spirits" wherein GOD tells you directly that a person has a spirit or spirits. Word of knowledge and word of wisdom would then come into play as GOD's way of instructing the "discerner" what if any thing should be done to correct the situation.(ie. casting out the spirits in the name of Jesus Christ). Compare this with VPW's own walk and demise and perhaps it will become apparent why some of these issues seem to be such a really huge subject of controversy.
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pond
Indeed waysider thank you
yeah Im aware of the teachings, In fact SFT a spin off of twi just generated a tape this month taking a different approach to the manifestations teaching than the way offered.
Here is the thing waysider
The media has well documented the issue with the voices of God commanding a person to do horrible deeds for HIM because evil or devil spirts had possessed the person, and they need to help God (the voice of)
Yates the woman who drowned her 7 children in the bath tub told the dr. the reason she kill all 7 children was because she the children had devil spirits and God told her she needed to kill them so they would get to heaven.
I believe this whole line of thinking is generated by extreme unstable thinking and playing with fire.
As far as history before medicine or proper instiutions a person in an episode could and would become dangerous and try to kill their own self and others.. Anyone who protrays such behaviours would be linked to the devil who kills people hence the devil spirt label also behaviours that are really bazzare can and have manifested its self in the thongs of disease hence it was not the regular person personality he/she did not act like that before they are not being themself HENCE they must have gotten a devil spirit .
Medical society contributed little or nothing for those who suffered so some explanation was needed to why a person was not acting as their normal self.
today hopefully we can attain more satisfactory solution to disease.
ya think?
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waysider
Pond----------Thank you for responding to my post. As I stated, I neither condemn nor condone this line of thinking . I merely present it as an expository discourse. I might further add that we were sworn to an oath to never expose what I just exposed. This oath taking was done in what appeared to be a lighthearted spoof of pagan ritual, but one has to wonder how serious the expectations of secrecy may have been. Early on in the growth of TWI we were taught that revelation regarding the present could never ( and I emphasize never) contradict what had already been established in the scriptures. This , of course, was revised by the concept that revelation could change even though the scriptural evidence was weak and selective at best. I'm sure this seems like it is off topic from the discussion on mental illness but hopefully it may be found to be enlightening on what was taught on the subject.
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Bramble
I just learned this in the past year, TL. I have never been a 'good sleeper' and after being ill this winter it got much worse, to the point where I was having memory loss and speech halts. I felt fatigued but not really melancholy or unhappy, no tears etc. just tired.
I started on an antidepresent to see if it would help the situation (yup, trial and error-- I'd already tried a sleeping pill and didn't like it, felt groggy half the day.)
With in two weeks I was sleeping through the night. My energy level has gone way up!
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medic's wife
Ya know what a HUGE partothe trouble is?? Folks CARING TOO MUCH about that the OTHER ONE thinks
I say ....fuggabunchathat
Do what works for YOU!! PERIOD! Dadgummit....YOU are the one living with the nightmare of the illness....STOP tyng to please all others!!
And I say this with much much love. I truly do
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pond
tis true
but a serious mental illness doesnt leave a whole lot of room for choice for many.
before my sister took her paxil she went from a sexy modern working woman with a great life to a little frightened girl living in filth unable to leave her home.
today she is much better , and living a good life.
I think what happens is you think it will go away and sometimes it doesnt then it gets worse and then it is out of control and you end up paying a very high price for the struggle.
money and insurance is another issue for many who are sick.
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T-Bone
I think CoolWaters' statement in the first post of this thread is key point for anyone in relation to mental illness. The person's viewpoint is critical - whether they are the doctor, patient, researcher, caregiver, a friend, relative, etc. in the situation. How a person sees the problem determines how they address the problem. My own viewpoint on mental illness has changed since leaving TWI. Like Belle, Bagpipes and a few others who have shared on this thread have indicated – it's important to stay informed on this stuff with the wealth of info out there – and especially because there's so much info out there and research is an on-going process - still exercising our critical thinking process to sort through items of interest and see what works.
I like what Medic's Wife said about finding what works for you and stop trying to please others. When I finally went to a psychiatrist and began taking an antidepressant – I really wasn't giving it my all in terms of effort. I still had such a stigma about this stuff – just from the old TWI ghosts in the machinery of my belief system. In my TWI days my general way of dealing with something like this was to: deny it was really there, attribute it to devil spirits, believe God for instantaneous healing. I think you can find a similar stigma among some mainstream Christian churches.
I thought a lot about Paul's thorn in the flesh – how he prayed to God 3 times to take it away – but God's answer was basically He would supply Paul with the strength to handle it [II Corinthians 12: 7-10]. I also thought about James 5:14 "Is any of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord." Oil is one of the best-known ancient medicines [see also Isaiah 1:6 and Luke 10:34]. I started adjusting my Christian viewpoint about my own experience. I would ask God for the strength and wisdom to manage my depression as well as asking Him to bless what medicine I was taking. I no longer saw God at odds with the medical community.
One day as I was having one of those really bad days at work yet was holding up really well – able to stay on task and concentrate - I thought "man, normally this kind of day would drive me way down in that big black hole" [this is after being on antidepressants for awhile and trying the cognitive therapy techniques from Burns' book]. I had a realization – or maybe it was more like I was trying to describe my experience. I pictured my depression as a deep rut in a dirt road – and I was on a bike pedaling along in that rut – stuck going along wherever it went – I couldn't seem to muster up enough strength to pedal up and out of the trench. That rut in the road will never go away. But this particular day I saw the cumulative effect of everything I was doing as finally giving me enough power to pedal up to my escape.
I'm no longer taking an antidepressant - I stopped taking it as I got better at monitoring my thinking patterns and could easily identify cognitive distortions. Believe me – I've got no qualms with going back on medication again if need be….The rut is still there. Some days it's harder than others working that cognitive therapy stuff – to keep from slipping back down into that rut……
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medic's wife
To POND!!!
OMG I took Paxil and it turned me into a mess....please forward all this to my hubby.
It took me a month to get over Paxills "Pax-ills" meaning you are too sick to even want to die.
Effexor is doing me the same way now.
I was SOOOOO Much better before this so called "TREATMENT"
Geeze....it was better when a 'little anxiety' was my cheif complaint!!
I'm very grateful for your post, dear friend.
Much love and many blessings to you!!!
Dana
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pond
I believe my sister had a drinking problem for many years.
I was sober I watched, she is still in denial about it.
what helped my sisters depression was the drepresion she drank, she really drank way to much and now claims it was "self medication" I believe all her alcoholism brought this on now excused because she can now take a pill . She began drinking as a teen.
to be sober must be difficult after forty years... and she didnt do well.
so the dr. put her on medicine. she said it changed her life. she no longer showed up at christmas with a case of beer and two bottles of booze (just for herself) not kidding or adding to her problem.)
sure she didnt get confronted about the booze as much it now took less to be drunk. to feel out of it .
for awhile .
she has always been a very high functioning drunk as many of my family seem to be untill it gets more difficult and more booze is needed and we get older and it just isnt as "cool as it used to be.
so the pill helped. she looks better seems to be better but I havelimited
my interactions with her after years of the mess. so who really knows how one is doing on the inside?
esp if they are not honest and have spent years in a denial trap.
we went to a reunion for the family and i reminded her five times to take her meds she was so drunk she kept forgetting. she is young has blood pressure out of control all kind of issues YET it is all about the panic and anxiety not the years of alcohol abuse. and now she has the "meds" to help. her poor body will not take much of this IM sure.
i think she will die young like elvis and marilyn why do the great ones struggle so with this type of life?
I asked her once if she ever would consider stopping the medicine and she siad no way.
the dr. never once address her drinking of course she would sing the song of denial . never saw it as a problem .. america supports alcohol abuse in so many ways,so here take this and this and now she has enough meds to not have to drink gallons a day and still carry on in a life of numbness.
If I could hear more say to me I was able to stop taking the drugs after I did some work onmyself I would be more hopeful about this avenue but frankly that is not what I hear i hear dr. givng people serious drugs to deal with life without even considering what is really going on.
A person who can not function who needs medicine to function and never confronts their own personal path in life just takes pills to cope does not get well nor does the quality of life improve or issues get resolved if that is the best we have to offer people I frankly do not think it is good enough.
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