She looked upset, like not again. He told me not to move, but I was praying for a WAY OUT, and I left.
Later I went to see her as I did not want her to think I was "doin" her hubs, and I wanted her to know I would not hurt her and that I knew ALL that was happening so she did not feel alone...
Many reasons I went.
But man, what made an old over weight man think he was appealing?
I just can't imagine the tension, lies, manipulation and frustration that must have been going on behind the scenes in that New Knoxville place.
Who where those 'body guards'?
Are they still 'IN'?
If any are out, have they spoken up?
So, Mrs. W knew... but did she know ALL about the stuff? Drugging? Rape?
We may never know...
I do know some 'older' women have 'forgiven' their husbands for adultery, but think somehow 'they' were to blame. They weren't sexy enough, didn't please their husbands enough, were too busy with the kids... blah, blah, blah...
Mr Wierwille did seem like a nasty, dirty old man... what a pig!
just wanted to clear up a minor detaill... the Kipp farm ended up being in the possesion of the Way, as far as I can remember but it was not connected to the property on hiway 29 and wirewillie road, that was originally all Wierwille farm property(later property was bought from others surrounding). The Kipp farm, as I dimly now recall, was on the other side of New Knoxville, out somewhat towards St Marys. There was a house on the property, a barn and other smaller buildings. Do not remember who lived there in the 70s, things may have changed later, etc.
Mrs. Wierwille was NOT stupid, she CERTAINLY knew and did very little if anything to confront... she became as frozen as many of us did, thank God somebody at times called him on his kr*p but he had it fixed so it never made any difference, he never REALLY was accountable. There are NO good answers to the disgrace he made of his life and his "ministry", which perhaps really might have been of benefit had he truly lived the servant's life, not the life of some potentate....
Usually there was some Ohio Corps living at the Kipp farm. As recently as the late 90's the Area Coordinator for the Area around New Knoxville (Miami Valley Branch?) and his family lived there.
Mrs W had Alzheimer's: what have seen happed to my mom Duck this would limit her choices . in very little time The brain is destroyed and ability to make your own choices ends after only 2 years or less. I could be a lot less because most people not told the have it until the disease until has already done one- two years of damage.
There was a time when Mrs W was QUeen Bee not a Pawn like rest of us in way1. And 2 As the Queen she could get lot more help from outside sources. There are people she could , have called that would have helped. WHY ! Haveing love to have the top person leave, that played such a big part in holding TWI together : MRs W would well taken care . It would have been like a top Russian spy that came to USA, provides information nobody else has .. Here situation has to be ten times better than TWI slaves and cannot get out . Those caught on wrong side of marriage , WOWS left with no place to live or money after a " great year " et.
In my earlier statements : I was doing my best to believe that did Mrs W did not known the worst , Drugged and raped. I missed the most important point, she was lot better off than lot of members of way1 and 2 ,who wanted to get out , and she knew what going on . MRS W could still make a phone call to right person got help, lot easier than the Way slaves that still live in grade F housing , with no private phone or money . The time period she could act would be limited by the onset of ALZ , and the lost of memory. Not necessary by her advance age . How may lives would have saved if Mrs P written a book in 1987, and the cult was shut down , just dreaming what couild have happen good !
Twinot, In Karl Kahler's book, one of the chapters talks about VP's attitude while filming the class, and suppossed attested by Dave Anderson and Peter Wade, one day during one of the breaks in filming PFAL, Mrs. Wierwille decided to get some plastic or fancy paper roses to be placed in the vase on "Doc's" desk. He saw her doing that and went into a screaming tirade, almost getting ready to slap her in front of everyone. She broke down in tears. Some reported that Wierwille nearly threatened the entire crew with violence if anyone tried to protect Dorethea. After the class was filmed, both Dave and Peter left TWI in disgust. And this is 1969. By the way, Ermal was retired as BOD because he disagreed with VPW over the book Jesus Christ is not God(seems he still was Trinitarian).
Tom, I bet people close to VP saw he was a man who could employ fatal violence to get his way. He was an avid hunter, so he knew his way around a gun, he had acres and acres of farmland to dispose of the evidence. I have no doubt Dotty thought long about how if she opposed VP to hard she might disapear into the woods never to be seen again. If that happened people would rally around VP and say "the adversary has struck home and taken Dotty to try and destroy our beloved ministry." I've heard it said there are more bodies buried on TWI grounds then most people know about. So in my mind how Dotty could have stayed in such a situation is clear, considering I didn't even live on TWI grounds but was very afraid to leave TWI myself.
Seth, that is quite a leap. Wierwille apparently was good at using religious condemnation to get his way and intimidate people. Now you are saying that he would have people killed. That is quite a leap. I talked to a friend of mine who was in the Way corps and spent some time with Wierwille. I asked him if he ever used intimidation with him. He said he never did. Frankly, I think Wierewille instinctively knew who he could intimidate and throw temper tantrums with to get his way and who this would not have worked on. Yea, apparently Wierwille was a whinning petty little tyrant, but some people this won't work with. I think for those people he tried to sweet talk. I think he was probably very good at this also. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? But really, I don't want to chastize a dead man. Just sorry I never had the opportunity while he was still among the living if what people say about him is true.
I think the people seth is referring to on grounds may be family members or previous owners of the farm . graves that are not clearly marked this was common in the country to bury family members on the property making a family plot.
In time if sold or everyone dies off the markers fade away but the record of the death remains.
my father loved guns he had hudreds and i sometimes wonder if my mom at times was intimidated but NO as Mark said it is quite a leap and even if true early on in the marriage it would not have been considered "against the law" to keep your woman under control.
I know today is different times have changed.
I was also afraid when i left and i remember thoughts they will kill me.. it is a wild thing leaving a cult. Seth your not alone I thought it was so frightening now it seems very ridiculas but at the time i remember thinking i would die by their hand as well.
it was a strnage weird time. man just thinking about what I thought is a trip.
Dear Dot--nice to be seen, as my Bronx friend used to say... and nice to see you, as well.
You have real guts to share as honestly as you do. What a shame that was so rarely seen and even less valued back in the day. I am sorry that Mrs.W had to deal with the stuff she did; -- it could not have been easy to have kept her mouth zipped and I truly believe she was as conflicted as the rest of us. God was so wonderful but veeeck was such a bundle of contradictions; something she hardly could have known when they first met. What a waste it all seems in so many ways.... it seems that sometimes we thought that a false prophet had a sign he carried saying "Beware! False Prophet!" Vic obviously had many strong qualities and abilities-- he was false, I believe, because he never really left his old man behind. He seemed to think he could be a man of God on his own terms. We can now clearly see the results of that thinking.
I do believe now that if Mrs. W had outed vic and his shenanigans, vic would have turned on her and ripped her apart even as others such as yourself were. He was in love with his power and fans and would not have let anything touch that, I think. What a rotten shame.... well, I believe he will answer in a day coming....
He seemed to think he could be a man of God on his own terms. We can now clearly see the results of that thinking.
You nailed it ...Alfakat!
I do believe now that if Mrs. W had outed vic and his shenanigans, vic would have turned on her and ripped her apart even as others such as yourself were. He was in love with his power and fans and would not have let anything touch that, I think. What a rotten shame.....
Absolutely, we would have all shaken our heads sadly that such a once great lady could become so posessed.
Heck thats what they told us about why John Lynn and Ralph D. Left...we were told not only don`t go to any meetings they held ...but to not speak to anybody who had because they more than likely had become posessed as well.
I freaking believed it!! It would have been even worse for mrs.
After following this thread for a while it has occurred to me that perhaps we sympathize because we see a bit of ourselves in her. How many of us saw and heard things that we, in retrospect, should have acted on? How many of us did act but were ridiculed or condemned? Or even worse, made to think we were putting our loved ones very lives in jeopardy? How many of us bought into the fallacy that we just were not seeing the big picture? Maybe that's part of the lesson in "He who is without sin----------" When we understand why we did what we did or didn't do what we didn't do, maybe we will better understand our sympathies for Mrs. W.--------Just my opinion.
If any "ministry" had made my own children unwelcome--no, barred from--my own home, I'd have been packing my bags. Why stay under those circumstances? To keep the house? What good is a house when the ones you love can't step foot in it? And if my 4 living children were granted only very limited access to their own brother's funeral? I can't fathom that, either.
I can understand a woman of her generation staying in a difficult marriage. I can understand sticking around after her husband died if she really believed twi was worth fighting for--lots of people did that. But I don't get siding with the likes of LCM, DM, and RFR over her own kids and, if what I've heard is true, having to sneak off and meet them at relatives' homes to be able to see them at all.
On the other hand, regarding the accusations that she didn't speak up, we don't know that she didn't speak, up, do we? Granted, she didn't grab a mike on the ROA main stage and make an announcement, but who's to say she didn't confront VP, LCM, and others privately?
I get what you're saying about the perks she enjoyed, exsie. She was definitely the queen bee at HQ and on all the other campuses when she visited them. It seemed to me that she liked her status as "first lady of the way" just fine. Maybe I would have too, if I'd been in her shoes during the lean early years of twi, so I try not to judge. But she did live an extremely privileged life. Housekeepers, escorts, drivers, the whole bit, basically the whole staff and all the believers wherever she went were at her beck and call.
I get what you're saying about the perks she enjoyed, exsie. She was definitely the queen bee at HQ and on all the other campuses when she visited them. It seemed to me that she liked her status as "first lady of the way" just fine. Maybe I would have too, if I'd been in her shoes during the lean early years of twi, so I try not to judge. But she did live an extremely privileged life. Housekeepers, escorts, drivers, the whole bit, basically the whole staff and all the believers wherever she went were at her beck and call.
Yes, Mrs. W was definitely the queen bee of twi.
IMO, on so many levels..........she found "her space" to function apart from veepee.
He was the president..............she was the first lady.
He was "the teacher"..............she was the loving, faithful helpmate.
He was out traveling...............she was busy raising the kids.
He was living "coach style"......she was rooted in the Wierwille homestead.
He was confrontational............she was the caring, gentle soul.
He was controversial...............she was the soft side of acceptance.
He was on the prowl................she was stedfast in prayer.
And, yes.........her position in twi was unmatched. During the late 70s / early 80s...at the peak of those ministry years, she was in the spotlight........elevated far beyond her Ohio-farm background. At major events and the annual Roa, she was showered with gifts from around the world......perfume, jewelry, accessories, etc. Even into the 90s, gift tables were in her suite......as the gifts came pouring in during WIB and/or Adv Class Specials.
To me, it seems that.....as the corps program gained momentum, veepee had overpowering access to these corps women (and others?). The isolation facilitated it. The mog-adulation facilitated it. The motorcoach facilitated it. The systematizing of doctrinal error facilitated it. Wierwille's "weakness" became a gaping hole of lust and license for sin.
And, Mrs. Wierwille stayed put and stayed quiet.....because she "weighed the balance" of good versus evil and dutifully succombed to her soft-spoken side. Right or wrong, it was a choice that must have weighed heavy on her heart until vpw's death in 1985.
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rascal
Gonna weigh in here... Great points word wolf, I hope that you never stop keeping the record straight and people honest here. twinot, i have to say that you are sounding pretty darned judgemental and
rascal
Guess that maybe one would have to experience being abused, not just physically but mentally as well, in order to understand the utter hopelessness of the situation. You have been taught all of your
Dot Matrix
She looked upset, like not again. He told me not to move, but I was praying for a WAY OUT, and I left.
Later I went to see her as I did not want her to think I was "doin" her hubs, and I wanted her to know I would not hurt her and that I knew ALL that was happening so she did not feel alone...
Many reasons I went.
But man, what made an old over weight man think he was appealing?
I was young. Barf
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SafariVista
I just can't imagine the tension, lies, manipulation and frustration that must have been going on behind the scenes in that New Knoxville place.
Who where those 'body guards'?
Are they still 'IN'?
If any are out, have they spoken up?
So, Mrs. W knew... but did she know ALL about the stuff? Drugging? Rape?
We may never know...
I do know some 'older' women have 'forgiven' their husbands for adultery, but think somehow 'they' were to blame. They weren't sexy enough, didn't please their husbands enough, were too busy with the kids... blah, blah, blah...
Mr Wierwille did seem like a nasty, dirty old man... what a pig!
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pond
I look at woman from that generation and Im just sorry.
Yeah I think they had choices, but not enough courage to leave.
I think they got what they wanted as well.
the lifestyle was one of luxury, and I know she enjoyed the lime light as much as he did .
It must be a wonderful feeling to have thousands stand up when you enter a stage and clap just because you showed up!
I wouldnt know personaly but I know fame has a bite to it that goes both ways.
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alfakat
just wanted to clear up a minor detaill... the Kipp farm ended up being in the possesion of the Way, as far as I can remember but it was not connected to the property on hiway 29 and wirewillie road, that was originally all Wierwille farm property(later property was bought from others surrounding). The Kipp farm, as I dimly now recall, was on the other side of New Knoxville, out somewhat towards St Marys. There was a house on the property, a barn and other smaller buildings. Do not remember who lived there in the 70s, things may have changed later, etc.
Mrs. Wierwille was NOT stupid, she CERTAINLY knew and did very little if anything to confront... she became as frozen as many of us did, thank God somebody at times called him on his kr*p but he had it fixed so it never made any difference, he never REALLY was accountable. There are NO good answers to the disgrace he made of his life and his "ministry", which perhaps really might have been of benefit had he truly lived the servant's life, not the life of some potentate....
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Oakspear
Usually there was some Ohio Corps living at the Kipp farm. As recently as the late 90's the Area Coordinator for the Area around New Knoxville (Miami Valley Branch?) and his family lived there.
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andy Bear
Mrs W had Alzheimer's: what have seen happed to my mom Duck this would limit her choices . in very little time The brain is destroyed and ability to make your own choices ends after only 2 years or less. I could be a lot less because most people not told the have it until the disease until has already done one- two years of damage.
There was a time when Mrs W was QUeen Bee not a Pawn like rest of us in way1. And 2 As the Queen she could get lot more help from outside sources. There are people she could , have called that would have helped. WHY ! Haveing love to have the top person leave, that played such a big part in holding TWI together : MRs W would well taken care . It would have been like a top Russian spy that came to USA, provides information nobody else has .. Here situation has to be ten times better than TWI slaves and cannot get out . Those caught on wrong side of marriage , WOWS left with no place to live or money after a " great year " et.
In my earlier statements : I was doing my best to believe that did Mrs W did not known the worst , Drugged and raped. I missed the most important point, she was lot better off than lot of members of way1 and 2 ,who wanted to get out , and she knew what going on . MRS W could still make a phone call to right person got help, lot easier than the Way slaves that still live in grade F housing , with no private phone or money . The time period she could act would be limited by the onset of ALZ , and the lost of memory. Not necessary by her advance age . How may lives would have saved if Mrs P written a book in 1987, and the cult was shut down , just dreaming what couild have happen good !
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pond
research has found the gene which causes alzheimers.
the disease can be diagnosed in very young adult hood.
this why we have seen the recent medicines. .
How the disease progresses or doesnt is really up in the air right now.
we know the end stages and the progression in symptoms well , but not how long or fast any individual may present in the discourse.
The test for alzheimers is not given to most until symptoms are present.
I know i would not want to know as a young adult, if i was not having issues.
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Seth R.
Tom, I bet people close to VP saw he was a man who could employ fatal violence to get his way. He was an avid hunter, so he knew his way around a gun, he had acres and acres of farmland to dispose of the evidence. I have no doubt Dotty thought long about how if she opposed VP to hard she might disapear into the woods never to be seen again. If that happened people would rally around VP and say "the adversary has struck home and taken Dotty to try and destroy our beloved ministry." I've heard it said there are more bodies buried on TWI grounds then most people know about. So in my mind how Dotty could have stayed in such a situation is clear, considering I didn't even live on TWI grounds but was very afraid to leave TWI myself.
Seth
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Mark Sanguinetti
Seth, that is quite a leap. Wierwille apparently was good at using religious condemnation to get his way and intimidate people. Now you are saying that he would have people killed. That is quite a leap. I talked to a friend of mine who was in the Way corps and spent some time with Wierwille. I asked him if he ever used intimidation with him. He said he never did. Frankly, I think Wierewille instinctively knew who he could intimidate and throw temper tantrums with to get his way and who this would not have worked on. Yea, apparently Wierwille was a whinning petty little tyrant, but some people this won't work with. I think for those people he tried to sweet talk. I think he was probably very good at this also. Does anyone else have any thoughts on this? But really, I don't want to chastize a dead man. Just sorry I never had the opportunity while he was still among the living if what people say about him is true.
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sprawled out
seth--
even I don't believe that!
has anyone around here ever accused vp of murder? anyone? anyone?
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andy Bear
Thanks Pond something may look into in the future .
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Stayed Too Long
Seth I hope you have reported this to the authorities?
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pond
I think the people seth is referring to on grounds may be family members or previous owners of the farm . graves that are not clearly marked this was common in the country to bury family members on the property making a family plot.
In time if sold or everyone dies off the markers fade away but the record of the death remains.
my father loved guns he had hudreds and i sometimes wonder if my mom at times was intimidated but NO as Mark said it is quite a leap and even if true early on in the marriage it would not have been considered "against the law" to keep your woman under control.
I know today is different times have changed.
I was also afraid when i left and i remember thoughts they will kill me.. it is a wild thing leaving a cult. Seth your not alone I thought it was so frightening now it seems very ridiculas but at the time i remember thinking i would die by their hand as well.
it was a strnage weird time. man just thinking about what I thought is a trip.
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Seth R.
Haha I love stirring the pot.
Seth
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coolchef
andybear
i must ask
who do you think that "right" person was that she could have called?
i think she was trapped
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Dot Matrix
Alfakat
Oh my! I am so glad to see you (so to speak) Hello hello
And coolchef- I agree with your statement
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alfakat
Dear Dot--nice to be seen, as my Bronx friend used to say... and nice to see you, as well.
You have real guts to share as honestly as you do. What a shame that was so rarely seen and even less valued back in the day. I am sorry that Mrs.W had to deal with the stuff she did; -- it could not have been easy to have kept her mouth zipped and I truly believe she was as conflicted as the rest of us. God was so wonderful but veeeck was such a bundle of contradictions; something she hardly could have known when they first met. What a waste it all seems in so many ways.... it seems that sometimes we thought that a false prophet had a sign he carried saying "Beware! False Prophet!" Vic obviously had many strong qualities and abilities-- he was false, I believe, because he never really left his old man behind. He seemed to think he could be a man of God on his own terms. We can now clearly see the results of that thinking.
I do believe now that if Mrs. W had outed vic and his shenanigans, vic would have turned on her and ripped her apart even as others such as yourself were. He was in love with his power and fans and would not have let anything touch that, I think. What a rotten shame.... well, I believe he will answer in a day coming....
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rascal
You nailed it ...Alfakat!
I do believe now that if Mrs. W had outed vic and his shenanigans, vic would have turned on her and ripped her apart even as others such as yourself were. He was in love with his power and fans and would not have let anything touch that, I think. What a rotten shame.....
Absolutely, we would have all shaken our heads sadly that such a once great lady could become so posessed.
Heck thats what they told us about why John Lynn and Ralph D. Left...we were told not only don`t go to any meetings they held ...but to not speak to anybody who had because they more than likely had become posessed as well.
I freaking believed it!! It would have been even worse for mrs.
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Dot Matrix
Alfakat
I think you said it all very well in your post. Thanks for your words.
I agree.
Reaching through the screen with a hug.
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excathedra
shoving dottie over so i can hug him too
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waysider
After following this thread for a while it has occurred to me that perhaps we sympathize because we see a bit of ourselves in her. How many of us saw and heard things that we, in retrospect, should have acted on? How many of us did act but were ridiculed or condemned? Or even worse, made to think we were putting our loved ones very lives in jeopardy? How many of us bought into the fallacy that we just were not seeing the big picture? Maybe that's part of the lesson in "He who is without sin----------" When we understand why we did what we did or didn't do what we didn't do, maybe we will better understand our sympathies for Mrs. W.--------Just my opinion.
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Dot Matrix
Good take on things
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Linda Z
If any "ministry" had made my own children unwelcome--no, barred from--my own home, I'd have been packing my bags. Why stay under those circumstances? To keep the house? What good is a house when the ones you love can't step foot in it? And if my 4 living children were granted only very limited access to their own brother's funeral? I can't fathom that, either.
I can understand a woman of her generation staying in a difficult marriage. I can understand sticking around after her husband died if she really believed twi was worth fighting for--lots of people did that. But I don't get siding with the likes of LCM, DM, and RFR over her own kids and, if what I've heard is true, having to sneak off and meet them at relatives' homes to be able to see them at all.
On the other hand, regarding the accusations that she didn't speak up, we don't know that she didn't speak, up, do we? Granted, she didn't grab a mike on the ROA main stage and make an announcement, but who's to say she didn't confront VP, LCM, and others privately?
I get what you're saying about the perks she enjoyed, exsie. She was definitely the queen bee at HQ and on all the other campuses when she visited them. It seemed to me that she liked her status as "first lady of the way" just fine. Maybe I would have too, if I'd been in her shoes during the lean early years of twi, so I try not to judge. But she did live an extremely privileged life. Housekeepers, escorts, drivers, the whole bit, basically the whole staff and all the believers wherever she went were at her beck and call.
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skyrider
Yes, Mrs. W was definitely the queen bee of twi.
IMO, on so many levels..........she found "her space" to function apart from veepee.
He was the president..............she was the first lady.
He was "the teacher"..............she was the loving, faithful helpmate.
He was out traveling...............she was busy raising the kids.
He was living "coach style"......she was rooted in the Wierwille homestead.
He was confrontational............she was the caring, gentle soul.
He was controversial...............she was the soft side of acceptance.
He was on the prowl................she was stedfast in prayer.
And, yes.........her position in twi was unmatched. During the late 70s / early 80s...at the peak of those ministry years, she was in the spotlight........elevated far beyond her Ohio-farm background. At major events and the annual Roa, she was showered with gifts from around the world......perfume, jewelry, accessories, etc. Even into the 90s, gift tables were in her suite......as the gifts came pouring in during WIB and/or Adv Class Specials.
To me, it seems that.....as the corps program gained momentum, veepee had overpowering access to these corps women (and others?). The isolation facilitated it. The mog-adulation facilitated it. The motorcoach facilitated it. The systematizing of doctrinal error facilitated it. Wierwille's "weakness" became a gaping hole of lust and license for sin.
And, Mrs. Wierwille stayed put and stayed quiet.....because she "weighed the balance" of good versus evil and dutifully succombed to her soft-spoken side. Right or wrong, it was a choice that must have weighed heavy on her heart until vpw's death in 1985.
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