Why did Mrs. Wierwille get off the hook?

[ChattyKathy]

quote #87

I think this topic has been very telling because the subject,according to the first sentence in the initial post is not really Mrs. Wierwille but rather greasespotters...

quote #91

I think simonzelotes said it best.

quote #95

OK, you lost me now.

Does that help?

[Dot Matrix]

I know a couple girls she helped, but that was to have an abor.....

So, she was really just keeping their secret.

If I recall, there was a really pretty girl you and I both were friends with, K----leen. People were hard on her because she was great looking, wasn't it Donna that asked you to be kind to her and get to know her? That was nice....

But all I know of her is screaming and yelling and she was part of the "secret society" and married into it with full knowledge, after bopping VP for a long time....

Never knew her personally.

I don't know why you really never liked Dotsie was she mean to you?

Edited August 26, 2006 by Dot Matrix

[Abigail]

Maybe the real sum of this thread is that in the end, we are all human. We are all capable of doing good, we are all capable of living in denial, even at the cost of others. Think about it, maybe the denial we once lived in didn't cause as great a harm as the denial of some who were "in the know", but at the very least we hurt our selves, and quite likely a family member or two.

I remember sitting in silence as my best friend got publicly reemed and humilated. I remember turning my back on her after she left TWI. It broke my heart to do it, but at the time I felt it was the only thing I could do - that to do otherwise would hurt my family. I remember being in her shoes not too long before that, when I was on the receiving end and my friends sat quietly by due to their own fears or denials.

Okay, sure, it is not on the same scale as what VPW did to innocent young girls - not even close. But my living situation wasn't even close that of Mrs. W's either. I cannot say for a certainty what I would have done in her position. I know what I would like to THINK I would do, but that is not the same as actually being there, walking in her shoes.

Edited August 26, 2006 by Abigail

[twinot]

I started this thread because I am interested in what the folks on this forum think about Mrs. W and her decision to not put her foot down with VP. I knew her after VP died, what LCM called TWI 2. He should of called it what it was "a final rein of terror." There weren't very many folks left that were around when VP was alive so my understanding of the circumstances is limited. I knew Sara Wierwille Gigou ( an amazing women) very well but never discussed any of this stuff with her or anyone that was around before VP died. Why? because I didn't know any of it went on.

I never doubted that she was a good hearted person. I don't doubt that some here had negative experiences with her. I think we would be hard pressed to find anyone at TWI that never did anything stupid or hardhearted. For that matter it would be hard to find any person anywhere that is always kind, always gentle, always perfect. LCM tried to make perfect people out of all of us and all that did was destroy what little was left after POP.

I wanted to thank each of you for sharing your thoughts and experiences here it has helped me understand what went on back then.

[rhino]

quote #87

quote #91

quote #95

Does that help?

Not a bit ... I read those, that is why I quoted ...

OK, let me try ...

This is about GS'ers

about GS'ers reasoning for going easier on Mrs VPW

so here we have GS'ers discussing their reasoning for going easier on Mrs VPW

which directly involves what they thought about Mrs VPW ...

main 2 points ... she was (perceived as) somewhat dominated, and she wasn't the key player

what are the other reasons she would get a pass (relatively speaking) than because of what people thought about her? One initial question was "Does she get a free pass for being sweet?" The overwhelming response here seems to be no, not so much because she was (perceived by GS'ers to be) sweet, but because she was (perceived by GS'ers to be) controlled, or mentally abused, or whatever different opinion has been expressed here.

I'm not sure how it could be more about GS'ers than having GS'ers give their opinions. Again, what kinda info are you looking for? If that is so telling, what is it telling so clearly?

Her treating some people nicely is no excuse at all. If she didn't have some deep psychological inability to confront VP because of being mentally abused (or whatever proper term you want to use), then she would be held much more accountable in my book. As touching as it is that she cried about VP's badness and meanness, I have no idea what made her incapable/unwilling to take more assertive action to stop him.

And to me this is more a case study that relates to many other people like aggressive Branch Leaders and nice wives ... or whatever ...

Edited August 27, 2006 by rhino

[ChattyKathy]

Not a bit ... I read those, that is why I quoted ...

OK, let me try ...

This is about GS'ers

about GS'ers reasoning for going easier on Mrs VPW

so here we have GS'ers discussing their reasoning for going easier on Mrs VPW

which directly involves what they thought about Mrs VPW ...

main 2 points ... she was (perceived as) somewhat dominated, and she wasn't the key player

what are the other reasons she would get a pass (relatively speaking) than because of what people thought about her? One initial question was "Does she get a free pass for being sweet?" The overwhelming response here seems to be no, not so much because she was (perceived by GS'ers to be) sweet, but because she was (perceived by GS'ers to be) controlled, or mentally abused, or whatever different opinion has been expressed here.

I'm not sure how it could be more about GS'ers than having GS'ers give their opinions. Again, what kinda info are you looking for? If that is so telling, what is it telling so clearly?

I don't recall saying I was looking for anything unless my support of the statement of simonzelotes was perceived as that.

I think what we experienced in life personally reflects when you speak of this material. Those of us personally familiar with abuse can give her room (if you will) because we understand what it feels like to be too mentally strapped with the evil of our own day to try and control the life of another. Nor are we responsible for the other. That is part of control thinking.

Her treating some people nicely is no excuse at all. If she didn't have some deep psychological inability to confront VP because of being mentally abused (or whatever proper term you want to use), then she would be held much more accountable in my book. As touching as it is that she cried about VP's badness and meanness, I have no idea what made her incapable/unwilling to take more assertive action to stop him.

You answered your own question. Unless controlled and abused you "have no idea", all you can do is have empathy. And that can be worth as much as experience but it isn't the same.

And to me this is more a case study that relates to many other people like aggressive Branch Leaders and nice wives ... or whatever ...

There were buttholes abusing in the name of whatever and they are responsible even if they were shown how to be that way by VP or Craig.

[excathedra]

well damn it maybe donna didn't help me, it felt like it at the time because i had a waybrain

the first lady was never mean to me, i just don't buy into her canonization or give her a complete "pass" but hey what do i know about anything

[ChattyKathy]

You know a damn lot that's what you know about it!

And I don't give her a free pass but Groucho said something like apples and oranges (Donna and Dorthea). That is right on!

My bad, it was Georgio not Groucho .

[excathedra]

i hate that expression "right on" (;))

i don't remember what groucho said but i'm sure it was good

thanks, chatty kathy (my girlfriend had one of those dolls)

[ChattyKathy]

You are so freaking fun girl. I swear I wasted years here not talking to you when I wanted to.

[simonzelotes]

Bill,Cathy...let me elaborate a little...I wasn't trying to be judgmental or anything,'though it may have come across that way...Nor do I see anything negatory(cb lingo) about the direction this thread has gone....

I think this is a very telling topic about greasespotters because it's a much more difficult 'gray area' to discuss than your run-of-the-mill 'about the way' topics...It also seems a little less emotionally charged than many of the other topics at greasespot...People have come forward and put their logic and reasoning forward on a subject that isn't as cut and dry as,say,a thread titled "What do you think of child molesters?"....

Mrs. Wierwille doesn't fit the more acceptable profile of those we like to villainize....She was a woman...She was hauled off to a nursing home afflicted with Alzheimer's disease...A poor Ohio farm woman with a special-needs brother and a specialty in a field known for it's TLC: nursing...She wasn't part of the 'good ole' boy network; a power hungry man-of-God wannabe...Controversy and scandal did not follow her life around,except---she happened to be married to VPW all those years...

And that is what makes her life both unique and controversial...There are so many moral questions to consider,and if and why there is a double standard...She knew the scriptures...She had to have known what the Bible says about adultery...She was paraded on mainstages as the approving,loving wife...She sort of 'authenticated' or 'endorsed' the way ministry with her support....She also knew some dirty,dark secrets...

What is said on this thread will not send her higher in the heavenlies or deeper into hell...But it is a good indicater of where we are coming from and how some of our moral values are shaped...

[Dot Matrix]

Simon I like your post

[excathedra]

well it's not really humorous

[Dot Matrix]

Ironic

As we both think the VIP is a bag of it....

[WordWolf]

You know a damn lot that's what you know about it!

And I don't give her a free pass but Groucho said something like apples and oranges (Donna and Dorthea). That is right on!

My bad, it was Georgio not Groucho .

As for Donna's motivations, I'll take her OWN words, as reported by those who knew her personally...

"My time with Donna was during the time period of 1978-80. At that time she was an arrogant,

mean-spirited b*tch in her late twenties. She coveted after power....she explained to a bunch

of us once that when she was 'husband-hunting', she had dated numerous top twi leaders,

dropping names of 1st and 2nd corps guys. She said that when she got to craiggers,

she knew he was the one. Why? Because she knew that he was going to 'the top'

as she put it. She somehow knew that she was destined to be on the top rung of the twi ladder

and she got herself there. It's almost like the story of MacBeth- ambition, power, money.

She was willing to put up with lcm's adultery in order to maintain her position as 'first lady of

twi'- it was a simple tradeoff. Her disgust with her husband was only exceeded by her own lust

for power and position. Today, she probably feels like she 'earned' the right to live in

the corps chalet for all the years of putting up with bozo."

"That's exactly what she told ME once in a conversation. She told me (this was late '70s)

that she had decided years before she would do Whatever It Takes to 'get to the top'.

She was totally committed to being a top hot dog (as they used to say.)

She was very calculating. Although, back when she was young, to look at her,

you never would have thunk it because at one time, she was a wonderful, compassionate person

who truly did have a heart for people. In fact, I think it was that quality that helped get her to the

'top.' She is where she is now by deliberate, scheming decision."

Compare and contrast this with what's been said so far...

[ChattyKathy]

Yup, apples and oranges.

Thank you Simon and WordWolf.

[twinot]

To quote J.R. Ewing from the TV show Dallas:

"Once you lose integrity the rest is a piece of cake"

Donna like so many lost her way at TWI.

Edited August 27, 2006 by twinot

[andy Bear]

Stupid Bear ! newbee talk It was just 10 days ago I thought V pee good man everything went wrong after 1985. DId Mrs W known the worst Rape and drugs ,V Pee should have gotten life plus for . I thanks I thank Excath and others , telling what happen to them by this very sick man. Mrs W should gotten off easy maybee only 2 years in the can . How many people died because of what happen . What its worth for those poeple who think just bought company line , what happen , as neebee . that your problem ! see my other post

[ChattyKathy]

If you are saying Mrs. Wierwille would have gotten only 2 years in the can for her I assume you mean to be an accessory then I beg to differ she should have gotten a second.

For me to say anything else would be redundancy.

[SafariVista]

In Karl Kahler's book, one of the chapters talks about VP's attitude while filming the class, and suppossed attested by Dave Anderson and Peter Wade, one day during one of the breaks in filming PFAL, Mrs. Wierwille decided to get some plastic or fancy paper roses to be placed in the vase on "Doc's" desk. He saw her doing that and went into a screaming tirade, almost getting ready to slap her in front of everyone. She broke down in tears. Some reported that Wierwille nearly threatened the entire crew with violence if anyone tried to protect Dorethea. After the class was filmed, both Dave and Peter left TWI in disgust. And this is 1969.

I never knew any of this... disgusting! How could a man treat his wife like this, then turn around and teach the Bible?

Sounds like the LAW still applied to their lives in the areas that benefited Mr Wierwille :nono:

And I question how any one knows for sure that Mrs W knew what her husband was really doing with other women?… maybe he just kept on LYING!…. One lie after another…. Maybe some things never came to her attention fully.

[excathedra]

hi andy bear, thank you

welcome to this place

[Abigail]

I was thinking the same thing, Safari. Maybe she knew her husband cheater on her, but did she know he forced women or drugged them? Maybe she thought the women he was with, were with him willingly - from what I have read it sounds like some of them were, anyway.

[ChattyKathy]

Welcome Andy Bear, I was rather rude to a new comer.

[andy Bear]

'SafariVista' date='Aug 27 2006, 04:13 PM' post='262995']

I never knew any of this... disgusting! How could a man treat his wife like this, then turn around and teach the Bible?

Sounds like the LAW still applied to their lives in the areas that benefited Mr Wierwille :nono:

And I question how any one knows for sure that Mrs W knew what her husband was really doing with other women?… maybe he just kept on LYING!…. One lie after another…. Maybe some things never came to her attention fully.

Well said ! Mrs W did not known the worst that V Pee did and was also living a life on the dark side of the moon . To nice a person to just stand by if she new all. I Think We all agree there was line in sand mrs W would not let V Pee go , if she had known

Edited August 27, 2006 by andy Bear

[Dot Matrix]

Ummmm, Mrs. W walked in to the coach with her naked husband on the chair in the back and me standing close by.

And after speaking to her, I KNOW she knew.