Twinot, I really don't think Mrs. W's position has anything to do with it (let's face it, in most cases the higher up the person, the more heat we give them for their mistakes).
I think it is that many of us have been in abusive marriages and can really sympathize/empathize with her in a very personal way. To condemn her is, in a way, to condemn ourselves for not leaving bad situations for far too long.
I've given up on tongue lashing twinot. I'm saving my tongue for more useful activities.
Sorting through this is interesting reading, and I'm thinking you mean why does Mrs. Werrwille get off the hook (here on GS), as in why aren't there more posts criticizing her for not taking public action regarding VPW's sexual exploits, such as - direct confrontation, like "that's enough! this is wrong, STOP!" and done something about it. Possibly leaving him, divorcing him, etc. So, why aren't more people posting more on what basically sounds like an allowance on her part to let it happen and go on.
I don't really know. There may be topics of more interest to people than that one. Mr.s Weirwille was certainly more likable than Donna Martindale, IMO. Donna was (is? I haven't seen her in many years) more transparent, had a flatter personality, for want of better terms. She wasn't really personable and by the sounds of it didn't do much for people on a personal level. She sounds like she could be meaner than a snake when she opened her mouth. So she's not liked as much. That would be one reason I think, at least a possibility.
Mrs. Weirwille could be caustic too, standoffish in appearance, but was also a very warm person once you got to know her. She enjoyed doing things for people, little things that were private. If she knew a person needed something she could provide she'd help out. She did good when it was within her means to do so, and sometimes when it wasn't she'd extend herself of seek out other means.
I never knew Donna Martindale to do that or be that kind of person. Maybe she was and I just wasn't around when she was. This is just my impression, experience.
I don't know that Mrs. Weirwille gets a "free pass", but being a more likable person and one who did some good with what she had goes a long way towards how I remember her. I'd put both her and Donna in about the same boat, far as it goes. One difference is that if Donna had walked 10 years ago, she'd have had a family and a support system to turn to. Mrs. Weirwille's circumstances were less providing years ago.
I think it's a vast over simplification to say, if we are, that Mrs. Weirwille knew everything that VPW did over all the years they were married and that she, with full knowledge, gave him permission to do so, tacitly or otherwise. How it all shook out, I don't know. They were married, with a marriage much different than the one I live everday, but it's possiblle that Mrs. Weirwille decided to suck it up and make it work as best she could believing that she was making progress in her own way, at least for a time.
Not knowing a lot of the details, I would still say though that they were adults and were obligated to act accordingly - they were interacting with people much younger than themselves, people that trusted them.
I haven't heard anyone on this thread mention love. Although I only met Mrs. W. a few times, I would bet that there was a strong love in their marriage - at very least on her part. That colors a lot of a person's thoughts about their spouse, so perhaps she was not as aware of VPW's misdeeds to others as we think she was and was willing to put up with his mistreatment of herself.
There is a big difference between a man (like Peter, John, Martin Luther, Tendale, et al.) and a woman married with 4 kids to a man who is abusive.
These men might have been threatened, but they were not emotionally abused by a spouse. It's really much easier to rally one's self to justice when you are oppressed by the established powers that be than it is to go against somewon you love (or once loved) and the father of your children. Maany victims end up supporting their abusers and defending them.
Could we go after Mrs. W with a venegeance? Sure. Do we? No. Why? Well because we in some way sympathize and empathize with her. Some greasespotters have had to face the fact that they did some not nice things even though they thought they were right. Some Gs-ers probably even helped cover stuff up - until they woke up. I'm sure that is was even more complicated for Mrs. W who's family farm was given to TWI. If she left she had no where to go and might have to leave the kids behind.
I know this has all been said - I guess I just wanted to say it too.
Thank you for not tongue lashing me. I received a lifetime and then some while with TWI. You folks here aren't so bad especially after running the gauntlet!
She also stood by and did nothing while they threw her son, daugher, in-law's, and grandchildren out of the ministry. I was there and it was b*ll ..... Old Vic was long gone by then, I guess LCM had his bluff in on her to. I watched the two of them interact. She despised him and he her but they coexhisted in that same small space. Don knew all about it as well and was a trustee and he just sat down and did nothing as well. I guess he learned this from his mother.
Of course I did nothing as well and I've kicked myself in the foot many times for it.
Yeah, that's pretty weird twinot and i wasn't around to see that, but it's hard to imagine. Maybe their actions could be summed up by this sign - "The path of least resistance has been closed for repairs due to heavy use, please use Means-Well Road". :blink:
People do things for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes people that do bad things don't get up in the morning and ask themselves "how can I be bad today?" When I think about those people that have been there for so many years, getting up every morning, doing...what? It makse me very grateful to be waking up here, in my own bed.
Socks, you have a way about you that others have mentioned to me knowing we know each other. You just showed it twice. You have an incredibly gracious way of just setting it out there. Thank you for that.
Twinot, you've had some good points and its always good to shake up our comfort zones a bit I reckon but you seem to lack in print here, which is all I have to go by, something that doesn't quite feel about her like I did. So maybe I can offer you something to ponder. I went and saw Mrs. Wierwille in the nursing home before she died. She had a room with walls covered in pictures of family and dear friends. At the entrance to her room was a shadow box of mementoes of a ministry that she served in. She did things none of us knew about unless we were the recipient.
She is not responsible for the sins of her husband. Her husband is responsible for the sins.
This family thing, I bought that whole crap line myself for years, geez if you had any idea the times I even cheated my sister and brother my time because I had some freaking class to go to. Those folks that drank that Kool-Aid all had the same level of sick when they partook.
This is long but I think it answers some questions. On this and many other threads still asking.
If you are inclined, here goes:
I think we all wish we could have been the hero or heroine that stopped the evil. There were many of us who tried to stop it. It was like that picture of the one Chinese guy standing in front of the long line of war tanks. I know I did confront VP and I was nervous, yet determined.
However, unlike the Chinese man who experienced the power for a flicker, I did not stop anything.
This was said in the thread “Did she ever help some of his victims?
One stepped forward and said she arrived in time to interrupt vpw's moves on her,
enabling her to contrive an exit. “
I was that person in the motor coach with a naked VP asking me “Do you swallow?”
I was so sick to my stomach, shocked, puzzled and yet instantly aware that the corruption I was experiencing had its roots at the top.
All my friends were at THE WAY. I had sold my huge home with four acres and a pond. Left family to serve God. My intentions were pure. And until I became involved with Corps grads who had intimate knowledge of VP, I saw only WONDERFUL things in TWI. Twig was powerful and healing, our area saw a lot of deliverance and I personally was delivered from much devilish oppression.
In the early years, we would pray and not even consider that our prayers would not be answered. We saw many wonderful godly things. Because of the love of God I saw in our twig fellowships, my life was changed. And because of my love for God I had exciting times.
IT was the early years, before the corruption of the corps trickled out on the field, that I am alive. I give the glory to God and not TWI. For some strange reason, God allowed a broken down vehicle with severe flaws be the vehicle of some wonderful Bible that saved my life.
Because of what I experienced in the early years, I wanted to serve God with every ounce of my being, much like many here whom have shared their stories.
My introduction to the core of corruption was the corps. First, the third corps that came to the area as Limb Leaders. I loved them and served on staff. But a dear friend, B*nnie who was later of the 9th corps, was on staff with me. She had gone to Headquarters and we at the twig couldn’t wait to hear of all the wonderful goings on there. However, when she returned, she told us how Uncle Harry in giving her a “bless you” kiss forced his tongue down her throat.
I was baffled. Asked the 3rd corps woman (whom I loved, and whom during those years became one of my best friends) and her answer was that Uncle Harry was just trying to teach or help her feel like a woman. I found the answer to be weak and confusing.
It was after years on Limb staff with all the stars of the ministry coming over and getting to know them, I began to wonder what the F?
Then, I lived with an early corps female ministry star. It was to date, one of the worst experiences of my life. She boinked anything and everything it seemed with no attachment, commitment or normal feelings that most woman possessed. There was a callouse disregard for others and a narcissistic center to her life that was sickening. After many escapades, I did go to the LIMB LEADER about her antics. Now, during this period a region leader, also revered as a STAR came through for a visit. I really like him. He was funny and charismatic. We hit it off. I thought I had a new friend and perhaps I could ask him why this female reverend’s Vaginal area seemed to be a 24/7 hotel.
Instead, as I slept that night, my NEW friend came into my room and I was in a sleepy stupor. Next thing I knew I was face down with this man inside me having sex. He was married and this just broke me. Shattered.
After going to the LIMB LEADER in my shell-shocked boldness for help, they had a meeting in the area. They invited the whole area and told ME I could not come. In that meeting they told ALL the people that I was possessed and not to listen to anything I had to say. That these spirits only spoke badly of Leaders and that they were deceiving spirits. I was to be ignored. Then, they announced I had sex problems. NOT THE BOINKING happy hipped REV., but she counter struck but telling everyone it was me.
The LEADERS met with me privately and announced to me all I had seen living with her were devils who were tricking me and none of this stuff really happened.
This covered her promiscuous lifestyle and me being raped. They were off the hook.
I was to go into the corps, and my goal was to get to VP and let him know that the ministry, the vehicle that brought me such joy, was collapsing. His leaders were like a porn flick that got outta hand. So, I had to go before LCM so I could still “Get into” the corps.
I went to him and he said, “Do you know what you did?”
I said yes. (Still determined to save the ministry by talking to VP)
LCM said I had to learn to shut my mouth and not talk about things that should not be talked about. (That was my sin)
Gee, I didn’t have spirits? I just had a big mouth reporting the things that actually happened?
Interesting – and more confusing.
Somewhere in all of this, I came close, so very close to suicide, but Ex called me and saved my life by telling me IT WAS NOT ME, BUT THE FEMALE REV HAD PROBLEMS.
Later, I heard the TWI forces that went against me was a strategy. One where they hoped or directed me to perhaps suicide as “It was better to loose one than to loose many.” I could be sacrificed because I had a big mouth, If I died it just help to keep their secret.
I got into the corps. And VP sent for me to come to the coach. I got there ready to SAVE THE MINISTRY. I went in. He was naked and asked me, “Do you swallow?”
Freaked, crippled, broken; in that instant I also realized I had to get out of there. Mrs. W. happened to come into the coach and gave me the opportunity to leave. I took off.
Later, I did go to see her. She was crying, and I was telling her I knew. And that I WAS NOT into all the crap. I did not and would not DO anything – in so many words. And she wiped her eyes with her crumpled tissue and held my hand.
Later, I confronted VP with the word of God that what he was doing was WRONG. He told me “Whatsoever things are pure, think on those things”
So, it was ME I was WRONG because I did not view all this destruction as P_U_R_E.”
What an
A
S
S
H
O
L
E
I wrote him a letter confronting him. I spoke out, I went to the corps coordinators on TWO campuses with the violations that were happening and I was labled as a trouble maker.
So, anyone can say ANYTHING they want about who did not say what. There are some situations where it is loose/loose and the only answer is to get out.
I truly believe Mrs. W, whom I stayed in contact with, did what she could against the SAME kind of evil wall I ran into. In the later years, I heard she also partook in extra marital affairs, or at least one was suspected with her physician. You know, I hope she did find a secret love so at least she felt like she mattered.
I do not judge her as by that time she was probably a shell of her former self. Heck, we are all still on here recovering in stages. She WAS married to him. So I think she made mistakes? Sure. Do I think she should have perhaps fought more to see her kids and stuff toward the end -- I do. But I do not know what she was faced with by then. All I know is they crippled me so I surely can understand her "hobbled walk with God"
Ask Exxie she came from a home with an abusive father, knows what it takes for the wife to get out. In that generation, it was near impossible. Women have come along way in 30 years.
So, if Mrs. W wasn’t your hero because she did not grab the mike at the ROA and tell us all to RUN? I ask where were any of us? I did not grab the mike, neither did any of you.
It was
H
E
L
L
And we all had the key to leave, and most stayed long after they knew to go, for whatever reasons.
Thank you for posting that. I can only hope it will make some folks stop and think. The mind-bending went deep. Deeper and deeper the higher up you climbed the leadership ladder. It was never as simple as, "Why didn't you just speak up or leave?"
As I've given this more thought, I think you also must bring up the needs/wants of the victim. In an abusive family, it is the person's need to be loved and appreciated that gets used against them to prevent them from telling or leaving. In our case, it was our fervent desire to be a beloved child of God and love and serve others. This innocent desire got twisted back upon us and became the bars of our own cage.
Again, I can completely understand Dotsie doing whatever she felt she had to do in the early years. My questions come from later in the timeline... when she saw others leave, when her own adult children left, when VP died, when she clearly hated LCM yet supported him publically... I can only imagine she had become so comfortable with reconciling the irreconcilable, believing her own set of defensive falsehoods, that she didn't have a clue how to walk away.
Dot, your story is heart-rending. It shows the hypocrisy that they were so into. You should have been believed, not beaten upon.
Highway - quote: "our fervent desire to be a beloved child of God and love and serve others. This innocent desire got twisted back upon us and became the bars of our own cage."
All of us here have had that "innocent desire" twisted back. It has taken some very many years to overcome it - GSCers write about their anniversaries of escape (1 year, 2 years, 6 years, 20 years). It often seems to take longer to recover than the number of years people have had "in".
How much worse if that "innocent desire" has included practically all of your life? Many decades? And not just the love for God, but the love for the man (or what he was when you met and married him), the love for his and your own children, so that you are enmeshed at every thought?
In my line of work, I have seen abused women go back (if they ever leave) their mates time after time after time. Their own self-confidence, self-esteem, etc, are eroded so badly that they hardly dare form a thought. But they will take whatever love/respect they can get. (And that's nowadays, in the 40s, 50s, 60s it really wasn't done to leave your husband.) Mrs W never struck me as being a victim, but many who are victims are truly adept at hiding it.
And many women who aren't beaten into submission (spiritually at least) but who have adulterous husbands take them back, forgiving them time after time, until it's little more than a routine. Adulterers don't usually start overtly. They have long periods of practise before they are rumbled. Mrs W will have been taught to "forgive" by the very man she has to forgive.
Mrs W was treated overtly with respect within TWI and many looked up to her, rightly or wrongly. Maybe that's what held her together. Sometimes, like with Dot and who knows who else, you have to work within and there would be no way to work from outside. Who can know?
The woman's dead. Cut her some slack. She can't collude/encourage/hinder any more. Whatever wrongs she did are far outweighed by the wrongs of others. The Searcher of Hearts will reward her (or not) as appropriate. He knows her motives in not confronting then.
But as LCM was so fond of saying: "This is the Age of Confrontation" - those who didn't confront him/colluded with him (Donna?) - well now, they're a different kettle of fish.
I didn't start to make my break from twi and an oppressive marriage until I got my own car (something I did without for an unbelievable number of years) and until I held down a full time job where I was told I was good at what I did, and given more and more responsibility. In other words, an OUTSIDE INFLUENCE over an EXTENDED period of time.
Even with that, and a marriage that was putting me into a deep depression, it wasn't until a local leader suggested to my husband that if he didn't make some changes he might lose me (he actually meant that he would cause my death with his wrecklessness, not that I might divorce him because of his oppression) that I even considered the possibility of breaking up my marriage. In my mind, I needed a twi sanction to carry out a non-twi-sanctioned action. How warped is that??????? But it felt perfectly natural to me at the time.
Dorothea had no such outside influence consistently building her up, and she was "in" twi for ???? exactly how many years to my twenty? Yes, she eventually had kids that left twi and I'm certain they would have been offering her sanctuary if she wanted it, but after so much time, I just don't think she would have known how to leave.
You brought up one of the things that has been hardest for me to reconcile. How could TWI be the source of so much deliverance and yet the man that started it is an f'ing pervert. Yet I have talked with many who shared very wonderful tender moments where VP helped them. Heck he helped me via classes and teaching tapes. It's just so difficult to understand how he was so screwed up and yet helped me so much.
My in-law's got in early back in the early 70's. I didn't get in until later, never met VP. My in-law's experienced what I did when I got in. A wonderful grassroots organization where they learned how to believe God and got deliverance in their lives.
I have looked at the Word in those places where screwed up leaders still had God working in them. I suppose it comes back to God works with what he's got and sometimes that ain't much. I suppose VP had a weakness in the sexual area and it just got really bad as he got into a position where he had the power to take advantage of women. It just sickens you but at the same time as a man I understand how it can happen. I think I could control that area but if I was put in a position where I had the power things might be different. I just shudder to think about being the kind of person he ended up being.
I know many women who were abused by LCM and one of them I was engaged to be married to when I was tossed out. She tossed me to and then she was put on staff at HQ. Anyone wonder what happened to her next? Yep LCM moved in for some fun. I'm still amazed to this day that no heartbroken husband or boyfriend has taken a ball bat to that SOB! The same is true of VP! They both needed to be castraded!
When you look at what is going on in our society today along these lines it's even more sickening. Men who rape kids just get a slap on the wrist.
Anyway thank you for sharing if anyone has something to add to my delima mentioned above how someone so screwed up could have helped many get deliverance I'd appreciate it.
Anyway thank you for sharing if anyone has something to add to my dilemma mentioned above how someone so screwed up could have helped many get deliverance I'd appreciate it.
Sometimes we forget! It wasn't the man who did anything, but God is always able to work in y-o-u. Maybe that's the solution for your dilemma?
Twinot, why could vpw not be put in the catagory of *false prophet*?
I mean aren`t we given a clear set of behaviors that men *of the flesh* exhibit in the scriptures?
Is Jim Jones and David Koresche in this catagory? Yet I have heard former followers of both men defend them as good men that taught them about God.
Does not the counterfit have to resemble the genuine very very closely in order to decieve?
Would God have had to give such chrystal clear instructions in the scriptures if it was not so difficult for us to recognise a false prophet or wolf in sheeps clothing?
The drunkeness and weakness in the area of sex (a pretty mild term imo for the drugging and rape of our trusting teenage sisters) ...the viscious cruelty, the savaging of innocent reputations ......exhibited to those vpw was given to pastor......scripturally (if one wants to accept that as the Godly standard) ..... uncatagprically in galatians ELIMINATES vpw as a man of God or spirit, and places him squarely in the catagory as being *of the flesh*.
Just because we believed so ardently in twi`s *good* ...that there were many pure hearted christians (and I place Mrs. W in this catagory) who DID participate in twi and bless countless peoples lives...in spite of the evil......does NOT mean that we were not decieved by an evil person, a man who CHOSE to live *in the flesh* rather than be of *the spirit* ....that the manipulation of scriptures led us into a snare.... .....and in the end .....ending up many times leading to our corruption....rather than leading us to the walk of a genuine christian.
It's clear that Mrs. Wierwille was in a horrible position to say the least. I think she did what she could to the best of her ability. My memory of her will always be good.
That was the painful running circle that dominating my inability to get mental deliverance.
I was healed by what I learned in the class.
I was hurt by the man who taught it.
In years on here, we had a huge thing on BG Leonard and plagiarism. Every deliverance here has people sent to keep you in bondage by idiotic responses to uncovered truths.
If you look into BG Leonard’s book and web site you will read things from his classes, which Weirwille took, used by VP almost verbatim as his own. Some argue the Bible and theology is NOT owned by anyone. However, even personal experiences were stolen.
So, a preacher like BG could find the truths that were godly and able to set us free, a looser like VP could steal them and present them as his own, and the amazing words of God could survive all the human banter and manipulation to still reach you and still set you free, the insidious part is once set free, you/I have a total dedication to help others by serving them the bread of Life I found in the PFAL class. Unbeknownst to us the premise, the experience and the research we were reading were taking from another man.
So, no wonder the words of the class were in conflict with the man who brought us the words of PFAL. The lines between being dedicate to God and the presenter of a class were blurred. A devilish successful plan. If you cannot stop the words of life from reaching people make sure it does not get past the boundaries of the man packaging it.
Anyone have all the thread about BG Leonard? I know I typed some of his books’ stuff and it was a twin to VP’s. And others found even more and more similarities. That whole discussion is what shocked the crap out of me and ended the circular thinking…
Word wolf – do you have it? I cannot find my Leonard books
Maybe helpful, but I am looking for the prophesy Leonard got and the one VP claimed to get....
I cannot dismiss VP as a false prophet. I believe that his genuine desire to know God and gain an accurate knowledge of the truth is undeniable. The fact that he began to look outside of his denomination for truth is evident. The fact that he sought out and found men like Bullinger, Leonard, Kenyon and others is a testimony to his desire for truth. I certainly believe that he got derailed along the way. I’m not making any excuses for what he did that hurt so many people.
Like many of you I have taken a hard look at everything I learned while with TWI. I have seen many glaring errors and at the same time many wonderful truths that have set me free.
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rascal
Gonna weigh in here... Great points word wolf, I hope that you never stop keeping the record straight and people honest here. twinot, i have to say that you are sounding pretty darned judgemental and
rascal
Guess that maybe one would have to experience being abused, not just physically but mentally as well, in order to understand the utter hopelessness of the situation. You have been taught all of your
ChattyKathy
I had something else to say but have run out of time and must leave for awhile and couldn't attend to it.
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TheHighWay
Twinot, I really don't think Mrs. W's position has anything to do with it (let's face it, in most cases the higher up the person, the more heat we give them for their mistakes).
I think it is that many of us have been in abusive marriages and can really sympathize/empathize with her in a very personal way. To condemn her is, in a way, to condemn ourselves for not leaving bad situations for far too long.
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twinot
I got ya on that Highway but so much more was at stake in Mrs. W's situation due to all the people that were hurt because of her husbands sin.
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socks
I've given up on tongue lashing twinot. I'm saving my tongue for more useful activities.
Sorting through this is interesting reading, and I'm thinking you mean why does Mrs. Werrwille get off the hook (here on GS), as in why aren't there more posts criticizing her for not taking public action regarding VPW's sexual exploits, such as - direct confrontation, like "that's enough! this is wrong, STOP!" and done something about it. Possibly leaving him, divorcing him, etc. So, why aren't more people posting more on what basically sounds like an allowance on her part to let it happen and go on.
I don't really know. There may be topics of more interest to people than that one. Mr.s Weirwille was certainly more likable than Donna Martindale, IMO. Donna was (is? I haven't seen her in many years) more transparent, had a flatter personality, for want of better terms. She wasn't really personable and by the sounds of it didn't do much for people on a personal level. She sounds like she could be meaner than a snake when she opened her mouth. So she's not liked as much. That would be one reason I think, at least a possibility.
Mrs. Weirwille could be caustic too, standoffish in appearance, but was also a very warm person once you got to know her. She enjoyed doing things for people, little things that were private. If she knew a person needed something she could provide she'd help out. She did good when it was within her means to do so, and sometimes when it wasn't she'd extend herself of seek out other means.
I never knew Donna Martindale to do that or be that kind of person. Maybe she was and I just wasn't around when she was. This is just my impression, experience.
I don't know that Mrs. Weirwille gets a "free pass", but being a more likable person and one who did some good with what she had goes a long way towards how I remember her. I'd put both her and Donna in about the same boat, far as it goes. One difference is that if Donna had walked 10 years ago, she'd have had a family and a support system to turn to. Mrs. Weirwille's circumstances were less providing years ago.
I think it's a vast over simplification to say, if we are, that Mrs. Weirwille knew everything that VPW did over all the years they were married and that she, with full knowledge, gave him permission to do so, tacitly or otherwise. How it all shook out, I don't know. They were married, with a marriage much different than the one I live everday, but it's possiblle that Mrs. Weirwille decided to suck it up and make it work as best she could believing that she was making progress in her own way, at least for a time.
Not knowing a lot of the details, I would still say though that they were adults and were obligated to act accordingly - they were interacting with people much younger than themselves, people that trusted them.
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alleycat
I haven't heard anyone on this thread mention love. Although I only met Mrs. W. a few times, I would bet that there was a strong love in their marriage - at very least on her part. That colors a lot of a person's thoughts about their spouse, so perhaps she was not as aware of VPW's misdeeds to others as we think she was and was willing to put up with his mistreatment of herself.
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doojable
There is a big difference between a man (like Peter, John, Martin Luther, Tendale, et al.) and a woman married with 4 kids to a man who is abusive.
These men might have been threatened, but they were not emotionally abused by a spouse. It's really much easier to rally one's self to justice when you are oppressed by the established powers that be than it is to go against somewon you love (or once loved) and the father of your children. Maany victims end up supporting their abusers and defending them.
Could we go after Mrs. W with a venegeance? Sure. Do we? No. Why? Well because we in some way sympathize and empathize with her. Some greasespotters have had to face the fact that they did some not nice things even though they thought they were right. Some Gs-ers probably even helped cover stuff up - until they woke up. I'm sure that is was even more complicated for Mrs. W who's family farm was given to TWI. If she left she had no where to go and might have to leave the kids behind.
I know this has all been said - I guess I just wanted to say it too.
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twinot
Hey Socks:
Thank you for not tongue lashing me. I received a lifetime and then some while with TWI. You folks here aren't so bad especially after running the gauntlet!
She also stood by and did nothing while they threw her son, daugher, in-law's, and grandchildren out of the ministry. I was there and it was b*ll ..... Old Vic was long gone by then, I guess LCM had his bluff in on her to. I watched the two of them interact. She despised him and he her but they coexhisted in that same small space. Don knew all about it as well and was a trustee and he just sat down and did nothing as well. I guess he learned this from his mother.
Of course I did nothing as well and I've kicked myself in the foot many times for it.
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socks
Yeah, that's pretty weird twinot and i wasn't around to see that, but it's hard to imagine. Maybe their actions could be summed up by this sign - "The path of least resistance has been closed for repairs due to heavy use, please use Means-Well Road".
:blink:
People do things for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes people that do bad things don't get up in the morning and ask themselves "how can I be bad today?" When I think about those people that have been there for so many years, getting up every morning, doing...what? It makse me very grateful to be waking up here, in my own bed.
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ChattyKathy
Socks, you have a way about you that others have mentioned to me knowing we know each other. You just showed it twice. You have an incredibly gracious way of just setting it out there. Thank you for that.
Twinot, you've had some good points and its always good to shake up our comfort zones a bit I reckon but you seem to lack in print here, which is all I have to go by, something that doesn't quite feel about her like I did. So maybe I can offer you something to ponder. I went and saw Mrs. Wierwille in the nursing home before she died. She had a room with walls covered in pictures of family and dear friends. At the entrance to her room was a shadow box of mementoes of a ministry that she served in. She did things none of us knew about unless we were the recipient.
She is not responsible for the sins of her husband. Her husband is responsible for the sins.
This family thing, I bought that whole crap line myself for years, geez if you had any idea the times I even cheated my sister and brother my time because I had some freaking class to go to. Those folks that drank that Kool-Aid all had the same level of sick when they partook.
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Dot Matrix
This is long but I think it answers some questions. On this and many other threads still asking.
If you are inclined, here goes:
I think we all wish we could have been the hero or heroine that stopped the evil. There were many of us who tried to stop it. It was like that picture of the one Chinese guy standing in front of the long line of war tanks. I know I did confront VP and I was nervous, yet determined.
However, unlike the Chinese man who experienced the power for a flicker, I did not stop anything.
This was said in the thread “Did she ever help some of his victims?
One stepped forward and said she arrived in time to interrupt vpw's moves on her,
enabling her to contrive an exit. “
I was that person in the motor coach with a naked VP asking me “Do you swallow?”
I was so sick to my stomach, shocked, puzzled and yet instantly aware that the corruption I was experiencing had its roots at the top.
All my friends were at THE WAY. I had sold my huge home with four acres and a pond. Left family to serve God. My intentions were pure. And until I became involved with Corps grads who had intimate knowledge of VP, I saw only WONDERFUL things in TWI. Twig was powerful and healing, our area saw a lot of deliverance and I personally was delivered from much devilish oppression.
In the early years, we would pray and not even consider that our prayers would not be answered. We saw many wonderful godly things. Because of the love of God I saw in our twig fellowships, my life was changed. And because of my love for God I had exciting times.
IT was the early years, before the corruption of the corps trickled out on the field, that I am alive. I give the glory to God and not TWI. For some strange reason, God allowed a broken down vehicle with severe flaws be the vehicle of some wonderful Bible that saved my life.
Because of what I experienced in the early years, I wanted to serve God with every ounce of my being, much like many here whom have shared their stories.
My introduction to the core of corruption was the corps. First, the third corps that came to the area as Limb Leaders. I loved them and served on staff. But a dear friend, B*nnie who was later of the 9th corps, was on staff with me. She had gone to Headquarters and we at the twig couldn’t wait to hear of all the wonderful goings on there. However, when she returned, she told us how Uncle Harry in giving her a “bless you” kiss forced his tongue down her throat.
I was baffled. Asked the 3rd corps woman (whom I loved, and whom during those years became one of my best friends) and her answer was that Uncle Harry was just trying to teach or help her feel like a woman. I found the answer to be weak and confusing.
It was after years on Limb staff with all the stars of the ministry coming over and getting to know them, I began to wonder what the F?
Then, I lived with an early corps female ministry star. It was to date, one of the worst experiences of my life. She boinked anything and everything it seemed with no attachment, commitment or normal feelings that most woman possessed. There was a callouse disregard for others and a narcissistic center to her life that was sickening. After many escapades, I did go to the LIMB LEADER about her antics. Now, during this period a region leader, also revered as a STAR came through for a visit. I really like him. He was funny and charismatic. We hit it off. I thought I had a new friend and perhaps I could ask him why this female reverend’s Vaginal area seemed to be a 24/7 hotel.
Instead, as I slept that night, my NEW friend came into my room and I was in a sleepy stupor. Next thing I knew I was face down with this man inside me having sex. He was married and this just broke me. Shattered.
After going to the LIMB LEADER in my shell-shocked boldness for help, they had a meeting in the area. They invited the whole area and told ME I could not come. In that meeting they told ALL the people that I was possessed and not to listen to anything I had to say. That these spirits only spoke badly of Leaders and that they were deceiving spirits. I was to be ignored. Then, they announced I had sex problems. NOT THE BOINKING happy hipped REV., but she counter struck but telling everyone it was me.
The LEADERS met with me privately and announced to me all I had seen living with her were devils who were tricking me and none of this stuff really happened.
This covered her promiscuous lifestyle and me being raped. They were off the hook.
I was to go into the corps, and my goal was to get to VP and let him know that the ministry, the vehicle that brought me such joy, was collapsing. His leaders were like a porn flick that got outta hand. So, I had to go before LCM so I could still “Get into” the corps.
I went to him and he said, “Do you know what you did?”
I said yes. (Still determined to save the ministry by talking to VP)
LCM said I had to learn to shut my mouth and not talk about things that should not be talked about. (That was my sin)
Gee, I didn’t have spirits? I just had a big mouth reporting the things that actually happened?
Interesting – and more confusing.
Somewhere in all of this, I came close, so very close to suicide, but Ex called me and saved my life by telling me IT WAS NOT ME, BUT THE FEMALE REV HAD PROBLEMS.
Later, I heard the TWI forces that went against me was a strategy. One where they hoped or directed me to perhaps suicide as “It was better to loose one than to loose many.” I could be sacrificed because I had a big mouth, If I died it just help to keep their secret.
I got into the corps. And VP sent for me to come to the coach. I got there ready to SAVE THE MINISTRY. I went in. He was naked and asked me, “Do you swallow?”
Freaked, crippled, broken; in that instant I also realized I had to get out of there. Mrs. W. happened to come into the coach and gave me the opportunity to leave. I took off.
Later, I did go to see her. She was crying, and I was telling her I knew. And that I WAS NOT into all the crap. I did not and would not DO anything – in so many words. And she wiped her eyes with her crumpled tissue and held my hand.
Later, I confronted VP with the word of God that what he was doing was WRONG. He told me “Whatsoever things are pure, think on those things”
So, it was ME I was WRONG because I did not view all this destruction as P_U_R_E.”
What an
A
S
S
H
O
L
E
I wrote him a letter confronting him. I spoke out, I went to the corps coordinators on TWO campuses with the violations that were happening and I was labled as a trouble maker.
So, anyone can say ANYTHING they want about who did not say what. There are some situations where it is loose/loose and the only answer is to get out.
I truly believe Mrs. W, whom I stayed in contact with, did what she could against the SAME kind of evil wall I ran into. In the later years, I heard she also partook in extra marital affairs, or at least one was suspected with her physician. You know, I hope she did find a secret love so at least she felt like she mattered.
I do not judge her as by that time she was probably a shell of her former self. Heck, we are all still on here recovering in stages. She WAS married to him. So I think she made mistakes? Sure. Do I think she should have perhaps fought more to see her kids and stuff toward the end -- I do. But I do not know what she was faced with by then. All I know is they crippled me so I surely can understand her "hobbled walk with God"
Ask Exxie she came from a home with an abusive father, knows what it takes for the wife to get out. In that generation, it was near impossible. Women have come along way in 30 years.
So, if Mrs. W wasn’t your hero because she did not grab the mike at the ROA and tell us all to RUN? I ask where were any of us? I did not grab the mike, neither did any of you.
It was
H
E
L
L
And we all had the key to leave, and most stayed long after they knew to go, for whatever reasons.
Edited for spelling error
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Dot Matrix
If only....
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Dot Matrix
Not to anyone directly, but an open question to whomever it may apply--
I think we were in a loose/loose
However, why look at others and wonder why they were not your hero/heroine?
Why not ask yourselves why YOU did not become that hero you were looking for?
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ChattyKathy
Thank you Dot! ((you))
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TheHighWay
Dot ((((hug))))!!!
Thank you for posting that. I can only hope it will make some folks stop and think. The mind-bending went deep. Deeper and deeper the higher up you climbed the leadership ladder. It was never as simple as, "Why didn't you just speak up or leave?"
As I've given this more thought, I think you also must bring up the needs/wants of the victim. In an abusive family, it is the person's need to be loved and appreciated that gets used against them to prevent them from telling or leaving. In our case, it was our fervent desire to be a beloved child of God and love and serve others. This innocent desire got twisted back upon us and became the bars of our own cage.
Again, I can completely understand Dotsie doing whatever she felt she had to do in the early years. My questions come from later in the timeline... when she saw others leave, when her own adult children left, when VP died, when she clearly hated LCM yet supported him publically... I can only imagine she had become so comfortable with reconciling the irreconcilable, believing her own set of defensive falsehoods, that she didn't have a clue how to walk away.
THW
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ChattyKathy
With abuse comes cloudy lines, the ones you walk over or the ones you run away from.
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Twinky
Dot, your story is heart-rending. It shows the hypocrisy that they were so into. You should have been believed, not beaten upon.
Highway - quote: "our fervent desire to be a beloved child of God and love and serve others. This innocent desire got twisted back upon us and became the bars of our own cage."
All of us here have had that "innocent desire" twisted back. It has taken some very many years to overcome it - GSCers write about their anniversaries of escape (1 year, 2 years, 6 years, 20 years). It often seems to take longer to recover than the number of years people have had "in".
How much worse if that "innocent desire" has included practically all of your life? Many decades? And not just the love for God, but the love for the man (or what he was when you met and married him), the love for his and your own children, so that you are enmeshed at every thought?
In my line of work, I have seen abused women go back (if they ever leave) their mates time after time after time. Their own self-confidence, self-esteem, etc, are eroded so badly that they hardly dare form a thought. But they will take whatever love/respect they can get. (And that's nowadays, in the 40s, 50s, 60s it really wasn't done to leave your husband.) Mrs W never struck me as being a victim, but many who are victims are truly adept at hiding it.
And many women who aren't beaten into submission (spiritually at least) but who have adulterous husbands take them back, forgiving them time after time, until it's little more than a routine. Adulterers don't usually start overtly. They have long periods of practise before they are rumbled. Mrs W will have been taught to "forgive" by the very man she has to forgive.
Mrs W was treated overtly with respect within TWI and many looked up to her, rightly or wrongly. Maybe that's what held her together. Sometimes, like with Dot and who knows who else, you have to work within and there would be no way to work from outside. Who can know?
The woman's dead. Cut her some slack. She can't collude/encourage/hinder any more. Whatever wrongs she did are far outweighed by the wrongs of others. The Searcher of Hearts will reward her (or not) as appropriate. He knows her motives in not confronting then.
But as LCM was so fond of saying: "This is the Age of Confrontation" - those who didn't confront him/colluded with him (Donna?) - well now, they're a different kettle of fish.
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TheHighWay
Another comment here:
I didn't start to make my break from twi and an oppressive marriage until I got my own car (something I did without for an unbelievable number of years) and until I held down a full time job where I was told I was good at what I did, and given more and more responsibility. In other words, an OUTSIDE INFLUENCE over an EXTENDED period of time.
Even with that, and a marriage that was putting me into a deep depression, it wasn't until a local leader suggested to my husband that if he didn't make some changes he might lose me (he actually meant that he would cause my death with his wrecklessness, not that I might divorce him because of his oppression) that I even considered the possibility of breaking up my marriage. In my mind, I needed a twi sanction to carry out a non-twi-sanctioned action. How warped is that??????? But it felt perfectly natural to me at the time.
Dorothea had no such outside influence consistently building her up, and she was "in" twi for ???? exactly how many years to my twenty? Yes, she eventually had kids that left twi and I'm certain they would have been offering her sanctuary if she wanted it, but after so much time, I just don't think she would have known how to leave.
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twinot
Thank you Dot:
You brought up one of the things that has been hardest for me to reconcile. How could TWI be the source of so much deliverance and yet the man that started it is an f'ing pervert. Yet I have talked with many who shared very wonderful tender moments where VP helped them. Heck he helped me via classes and teaching tapes. It's just so difficult to understand how he was so screwed up and yet helped me so much.
My in-law's got in early back in the early 70's. I didn't get in until later, never met VP. My in-law's experienced what I did when I got in. A wonderful grassroots organization where they learned how to believe God and got deliverance in their lives.
I have looked at the Word in those places where screwed up leaders still had God working in them. I suppose it comes back to God works with what he's got and sometimes that ain't much. I suppose VP had a weakness in the sexual area and it just got really bad as he got into a position where he had the power to take advantage of women. It just sickens you but at the same time as a man I understand how it can happen. I think I could control that area but if I was put in a position where I had the power things might be different. I just shudder to think about being the kind of person he ended up being.
I know many women who were abused by LCM and one of them I was engaged to be married to when I was tossed out. She tossed me to and then she was put on staff at HQ. Anyone wonder what happened to her next? Yep LCM moved in for some fun. I'm still amazed to this day that no heartbroken husband or boyfriend has taken a ball bat to that SOB! The same is true of VP! They both needed to be castraded!
When you look at what is going on in our society today along these lines it's even more sickening. Men who rape kids just get a slap on the wrist.
Anyway thank you for sharing if anyone has something to add to my delima mentioned above how someone so screwed up could have helped many get deliverance I'd appreciate it.
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krys
Sometimes we forget! It wasn't the man who did anything, but God is always able to work in y-o-u. Maybe that's the solution for your dilemma?
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rascal
Twinot, why could vpw not be put in the catagory of *false prophet*?
I mean aren`t we given a clear set of behaviors that men *of the flesh* exhibit in the scriptures?
Is Jim Jones and David Koresche in this catagory? Yet I have heard former followers of both men defend them as good men that taught them about God.
Does not the counterfit have to resemble the genuine very very closely in order to decieve?
Would God have had to give such chrystal clear instructions in the scriptures if it was not so difficult for us to recognise a false prophet or wolf in sheeps clothing?
The drunkeness and weakness in the area of sex (a pretty mild term imo for the drugging and rape of our trusting teenage sisters) ...the viscious cruelty, the savaging of innocent reputations ......exhibited to those vpw was given to pastor......scripturally (if one wants to accept that as the Godly standard) ..... uncatagprically in galatians ELIMINATES vpw as a man of God or spirit, and places him squarely in the catagory as being *of the flesh*.
Just because we believed so ardently in twi`s *good* ...that there were many pure hearted christians (and I place Mrs. W in this catagory) who DID participate in twi and bless countless peoples lives...in spite of the evil......does NOT mean that we were not decieved by an evil person, a man who CHOSE to live *in the flesh* rather than be of *the spirit* ....that the manipulation of scriptures led us into a snare.... .....and in the end .....ending up many times leading to our corruption....rather than leading us to the walk of a genuine christian.
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Godisgoodalways
It's clear that Mrs. Wierwille was in a horrible position to say the least. I think she did what she could to the best of her ability. My memory of her will always be good.
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Dot Matrix
Twinot
That was the painful running circle that dominating my inability to get mental deliverance.
I was healed by what I learned in the class.
I was hurt by the man who taught it.
In years on here, we had a huge thing on BG Leonard and plagiarism. Every deliverance here has people sent to keep you in bondage by idiotic responses to uncovered truths.
If you look into BG Leonard’s book and web site you will read things from his classes, which Weirwille took, used by VP almost verbatim as his own. Some argue the Bible and theology is NOT owned by anyone. However, even personal experiences were stolen.
So, a preacher like BG could find the truths that were godly and able to set us free, a looser like VP could steal them and present them as his own, and the amazing words of God could survive all the human banter and manipulation to still reach you and still set you free, the insidious part is once set free, you/I have a total dedication to help others by serving them the bread of Life I found in the PFAL class. Unbeknownst to us the premise, the experience and the research we were reading were taking from another man.
So, no wonder the words of the class were in conflict with the man who brought us the words of PFAL. The lines between being dedicate to God and the presenter of a class were blurred. A devilish successful plan. If you cannot stop the words of life from reaching people make sure it does not get past the boundaries of the man packaging it.
Anyone have all the thread about BG Leonard? I know I typed some of his books’ stuff and it was a twin to VP’s. And others found even more and more similarities. That whole discussion is what shocked the crap out of me and ended the circular thinking…
Word wolf – do you have it? I cannot find my Leonard books
Maybe helpful, but I am looking for the prophesy Leonard got and the one VP claimed to get....
http://www.waychrist.com/BG%20V.%20VPW.htm
The whole holy spirit -- Holy Spirit and other things VP claimed he found.
helpful but again the GS thread REALLY helped me:
http://www.equip.org/free/DW100.htm
Here is BG and his wife's site -- eye opening, get a few books:
http://www.ctcoftexas.com/index.html
I think someone here typed in alot of his stuff for us to look at.
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twinot
I cannot dismiss VP as a false prophet. I believe that his genuine desire to know God and gain an accurate knowledge of the truth is undeniable. The fact that he began to look outside of his denomination for truth is evident. The fact that he sought out and found men like Bullinger, Leonard, Kenyon and others is a testimony to his desire for truth. I certainly believe that he got derailed along the way. I’m not making any excuses for what he did that hurt so many people.
Like many of you I have taken a hard look at everything I learned while with TWI. I have seen many glaring errors and at the same time many wonderful truths that have set me free.
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Dot Matrix
TWInot
Perhaps, later we can have that discussion.
Peace
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