I agree. Ermel Owns and Harry Wierwille had to have known what was going on, yet they receive rave reviews from ex-twi folk here at GSC. Their wive's must have known something fishy was in the works also, but they also get a pass. Emogene Allen and Wanda Wierwille I doubt were clueless either.
Yet Donna is fair game but no other trustee wife is held in such contempt. I think the reason Donna is fair game is because she said some pretty wicked things about people. If she had kept her mug shut, probably she would be held up on a pedestal also.
I find it interesting that Mrs. VPW got little or no grief from you greasespot folk about why she didn't speak up reagarding her husband's sexual exploits. Donna M. certainly knew and didn't do anything either and she received many tongue lashings here at greasespot.
Is it because Mrs. VPW was so well liked?
Does she get a free pass for being sweet?
Why the double standard?
No double standard here.
She was the woman she knew to be.
Unlike her husband, who wished he were the man he knew to be.
I wonder if she is perceived as more of a victim, along with some of the other wives. Donna seems to have gone in with eyes wide open though, or it is perceived that way. There were a lot of victims I guess, but some passed on the abuse more than others.
Also knowing about it and doing it are quite different. It was the rare bird that stood up to it and spoke up.
I believe that Mrs Wierwille WAS a victim...she sat alone in her house at night knowing that her husband was frolicking with some young girl in the back of the motorcoach...how did that make her feel?...
...Could she have grabbed a microphone and exposed the evil?....and then pack her bags and split?
Maybe so...but it's hard to criticize a victim for the hard thing she couldn't get herself to do...
May she rest in peace, she had a tough row to hoe.
I don't know many details - I'm sure that there are some here that do.
Seems to me that the ones that should get chided (ie - torn a new one) are the ones that actually did the deeds - or actively set people up to get used, or who used people themselves in some fashion or another.
I have only heard rumors about D*nn@'s early days in the ministry - one might want to ask someone who has first hand information.
My knowledge of Mrs. Wierwille is from knowing her personally as well as being a part of a ministry with her for working on 20 years.
I once read a post of excath's that touched me deeply because I understood what that meant for her to be able to think and post that. I don't recall the words but she was tender and forgiving of her, if any needed giving. And if our excath can speak of her that way then it absolutely should be noted!
If God were limited by his butthole children (or otherwise) then what a mess he'd be in. If you knew her you knew of her goodness given and her faithfulness to the little things. And she did this with the handicap of being who she was.
Among the other women not all would make it thru a godly metal detector.
In general, particularly in our culture today, I would say silence regarding what occured in TWI makes one guilty of at least being a part of the cover up.
However, Ms. W. was not raised in, nor did she live in the culture we have today. Ms. W. comes from an era were women were silent, where women were in a very real sense secondhand citizens. I strongly suspect speaking up was probably not much of an option for her - perhaps a very very strong woman could have, but who would have listened? How many would have dismissed her, believed whatever stories Dr. W. and others in the ministry made up about her? How would she have taken care of her children?
If I could fault her for anything, it would only be for not being strong enough to take on the fight, and quite honestly, given her circumstances I don't think I can fault her for even that.
For Donna M. the same is not so. She was raised in a different era and lives in a different era. She had many options in front of her.
I think Dot Matrix's account of speaking with Mrs. W on the motorcoach and Mrs. W bursting into tears is telling. Of course it bothered her (Mrs. W). All those people mentioned had to have a day of decision; whether to stay and hope the godly outweighed the ungodly, or leave and basically uproot their whole lives. The pressure must have been great. Only God could really judge their hearts.
There's been a number of discussions, where a number of people made a number of comments.
Some you'll probably agree with, some you'll probably DISagree with.
Here's the ones I remember offhand.
-Mrs W could be super-specific with Way Builders, even to the point of working counter
to the best judgements of professional builders. One poster said he had to redo a
day's work to a lower work-standard because she wanted the aesthetics different.
-That account was an exception to most stories of her. Where vpw was full of bluster
about his own greatness, and meanness when things weren't PRECISELY how he wanted
them, for the most part, she's been reported as rather subdued and reserved.
Nobody's come forth with accounts of her screaming at people or humiliating them.
So, she's remembered as someone whose actions were better.
-As important as what she DID was, what she did NOT do was more important-
she did NOT rape the flock, drug anyone, or participate in any of the conspiracies
TO do any of those. She's not reported to have even PRIVATE vices, in comparison
to vpw's PUBLIC vices and addictions to alcohol and tobacco.
======
That having been said, it's a fair question why she's not condemned.
After all, she did not come forth and give testimony against vpw the criminal.
Therefore, one would ask-why didn't she?
A more petty person may lead in and say she liked the money and general
higher standard of living she got. Perhaps that person would be right.
However, she avoided conspicuous displays of wealth.
(No fancy cars, fur coats, or Imelda Marcos shoe collections.)
Further, when she married vpw, he was seriously broke.
He WAS already the convincing talker he met, and he was already a
candidate for "the ministry."
One might speculate he convinced her-at first-that he was a godly man with
godly conduct. (He convinced us, why not her?)
So, perhaps (I'm speculating here) she didn't see his true nature emerge
until much later, much "too late".
What does "too late" mean?
Just as one must understand the times, customs and cultures in the Bible,
one must understand her in terms of her own time/culture.
At that point in history, divorce was nearly unheard-of.
Women stood by their men, right or wrong.
She already had children with him before he was overtly evil to even the
discerning eye. It was unheard of to divorce with kids on the line.
Would she have to leave them behind?
Would she need to support them?
Was she ready to raise them without a father?
Perhaps people living NOW can suppose those were simple decisions THEN.
The other possibilities would have been to "turn state's evidence" against
vpw- either exposing him to the police or to the ministry.
If she "went public" in the ministry, almost nobody would take her seriously.
vpw had built up a great reputation as deeply and uniquely spiritual.
She had not. If there was a question, HE would be believed.
If she "went public" to the police, she'd need EVIDENCE.
Direct testimony of victims who left was hard since they'd been run off.
Direct testimony of victims who stayed was harder since they were intimidated
into accepting vpw's doctrine of "the lockbox."
Further, vpw had a criminal gang prepared to facilitate his rapes and druggings
by doing things like lying on the witness stand.
Could she use videotaped evidence?
Not when portable video cameras DIDN'T EXIST.
So, simply put, if she stepped forward, she stood to lose EVERYTHING
and succeed in NOTHING.
Worse was being married to him-when he could be a mean drunk.
Imagine being married to a drunken, belligerent tyrant who barked orders
and brooked no dissent. I never saw him hit her, but I'd be surprised if he
went as far as he did and NEVER hit her. He certainly grew up thinking violence
was an option. At his BURIAL, she was heart to say "He was a mean man."
She knew he'd "get even" if she ever tried to expose him.
Did she ever help some of his victims?
One stepped forward and said she arrived in time to interrupt vpw's moves on her,
enabling her to contrive an exit.
=====================
So, on a purely moral front,
yes, it is wrong that she did not step forward and report a criminal.
However,
for reasons mentioned above (and others left out), it is understandable (if wrong)
that she would conclude speaking up would only harm her and her children,
and it would be best to not interfere (much) with his felonies.
Double-standard? Not quite.
It was still wrong-but we understand.
She felt powerless for many reasons.
I think Dot Matrix's account of speaking with Mrs. W on the motorcoach and Mrs. W bursting into tears is telling. Of course it bothered her (Mrs. W). All those people mentioned had to have a day of decision; whether to stay and hope the godly outweighed the ungodly, or leave and basically uproot their whole lives. The pressure must have been great. Only God could really judge their hearts.
In short, what one would ask of her in this case was more than she was able to give-
Her and VP were dirt poor. Where was she going to go if she left? In those days women just did not leave their husbands. She was from a small town and would have been shunned. From what I heard back then, she couldn't go back to her family's farm, some of them had mental problems. I think she married VP at a young age to get away from her home. She had no money, nowhere to run, little kids. Yes, she knew what he was doing and it broke her heart. She had no power. I also think he would have made her life hell if she wanted to leave and would have made sure she was never allowed on grounds or to see the kids again. I'm sure there are reasons we'll never know as to why she stayed.
I think she is given a pass because of the times, and because she treated people so wonderfully and graciously, she made the best of a bad situation. She carved out her own niche in intererior decorating and VP basically left her alone to do what she wanted. Plus, she was in charge of nursing and took care of people when sick. She never had to wish she had been the person she knew to be at the end of her life, as the above poster said. I guarantee you she felt great relief when he was gone.
I knew both Mrs. VP and Mrs. Loy during my time in the Corp. I thank you for your comments on this thread but don't agree with your conclusions. Mrs. VP was sweet and kind but a lot of people could have been spared a lot of pain if she would have called Vic on his exploits. Do you think God would have backed her up just a little?
Abraham Lincoln "To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men."
Forgiveness is not a question here, I certainly forgive her and others that knew about what was going on. I have asked myself what would I have done if I discovered all this was going on? It would not have been easy to speak up but Mrs. was in a very good position to do something about it compared to most others.
But I still find it interesting that most here are so willing to make excuses for her silience. I understand your arguements about the time period in which she was raised but I guarntee there were ways to confront old Vic so that he would have cooled his jets. Ways that would not have required leaving him or going public. Just the threat of revealing his exploits would have been enough to get him to control his mind. She could have easily gathered evidence that could have been used to get him to simmer down now.
Thank God Paul Allen stood up and confronted the whole thing!
My beef with Donna has more to do with her own actions than those of her husband's. Mrs. W , who I knew, was a sweet woman and IMO a victim. Mrs W never used a micraphone to publicly bash people, lie and be hurtful. Donna was involved, Mrs. W was meekly in the wings. Apples and oranges.
I'm not out to condemn or exponge anyone here,since I really cannot know what was in the heart of an individual...Since both Mr. and Mrs. W. are both gone now,we'll never know what pacts they may have worked out with eachother...It does seem to me that she did have the power to bring down the house...VPW often flaunted his loving wife and family on main stages at the Rock and such....A divorced man of God?....That would have burst my bubble....
If it were as easy as one person being able to stop either of those mogs it would have been done several times by other than the Mrs. in both cases. The hierarchy set in place assured damage was controlled. Paul and Fern (of which I knew personally) were instrumental in the latter mog's downfall but I assure you other people than them made their impacts in ways just as damaging to Craig.
The good Mrs. Wierwille did in the name of God has not been forgotten by him or the recipients of her gentle soul.
Gonna weigh in here... Great points word wolf, I hope that you never stop keeping the record straight and people honest here.
twinot, i have to say that you are sounding pretty darned judgemental and harsh about a lady who most of us understand didn`t have a lot of options.
She was his first *con* and by the time she found out differently she was stuck with small children.
Geeemany.....She believed that she was getting away from her awfull home, she believed that vpw was going to be a minister and that she would be allowed to be a missionary....she had an honest heart to serve God.
I know that I believed the twi sheet about marriage, as I am sure did she.....about being honor bound to God to obey my mariage vows no matter what the husband did ....even in THIS day and age.
There are a lot of us that believed that God required us to maintain our silence and pain in order to be concidered a *virtuous* woman.
We let twi define what aGod expected of a wife and so put up with whatever transpired because we obeyed a higher law.
We were taught that if we obeyed the husband, that God would honor our commitment and make everything alright anyway.
Guess I can understand praying steadfast day after day, trusting that God would intercede....watching my husband become more cruel and unbearable year after year....tearfully brokenly begging God to *fix* things.
I did read where Mrs W shared that when she once confronted vpw, he simply told her that if she didn`t like it she could just leave.
She had no where to go with small children, and felt honor bound to God to obey her marriage vows.
It is a wonder that she remained so unsullied and above the sin and filth that vpw introduced into their life.
Yeah, she lost it a time or two....but who in the he ll wouldn`t having to live with that shame and humiliation....are we forgetting how persuasive that .... head was?
I knew both Mrs. VP and Mrs. Loy during my time in the Corp. I thank you for your comments on this thread but don't agree with your conclusions. Mrs. VP was sweet and kind but a lot of people could have been spared a lot of pain if she would have called Vic on his exploits. Do you think God would have backed her up just a little?
Abraham Lincoln "To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men."
Forgiveness is not a question here, I certainly forgive her and others that knew about what was going on. I have asked myself what would I have done if I discovered all this was going on? It would not have been easy to speak up but Mrs. was in a very good position to do something about it compared to most others.
But I still find it interesting that most here are so willing to make excuses for her silience. I understand your arguements about the time period in which she was raised but I guarntee there were ways to confront old Vic so that he would have cooled his jets. Ways that would not have required leaving him or going public. Just the threat of revealing his exploits would have been enough to get him to control his mind. She could have easily gathered evidence that could have been used to get him to simmer down now.
Thank God Paul Allen stood up and confronted the whole thing!
Are SURE about this?!!!! Do you have any experience with an abusive spouse? You are thinking about vpw as if he were logical and normal.
I had an encounter with someone he "trained." I assure you the man became dangerous when confronted and he saw the potential for losing all that he had.
I wanted to pose the question so that it could be discussed here. I know that Mrs. W was in a challenging position and that she was human like all of us. I spent 10 years in leadership and never had a clue that all the sexual misconduct was going on right under my nose. Heck I didn't even get wind of any rumors about LCM although I did hear once that VP had been accused.
What each one of us would have done is up for debate. I still can't help but think that Mrs. W and others who knew couldn't have done something behind the scenes to get Vic to stop. I suppose that many that knew and could have gathered hard evidence were afraid to call his bluff. The thought of losing your wife and children and most of your friends and any family that were involved is sobering. When Peter stood up on the Day of Pentecost and openly spoke for God I'm sure that this type of thing was on his mind. I'm glad he didn't succom to the fear.
Twinot, In Karl Kahler's book, one of the chapters talks about VP's attitude while filming the class, and suppossed attested by Dave Anderson and Peter Wade, one day during one of the breaks in filming PFAL, Mrs. Wierwille decided to get some plastic or fancy paper roses to be placed in the vase on "Doc's" desk. He saw her doing that and went into a screaming tirade, almost getting ready to slap her in front of everyone. She broke down in tears. Some reported that Wierwille nearly threatened the entire crew with violence if anyone tried to protect Dorethea. After the class was filmed, both Dave and Peter left TWI in disgust. And this is 1969. By the way, Ermal was retired as BOD because he disagreed with VPW over the book Jesus Christ is not God(seems he still was Trinitarian).
1) Mrs. W was a victim. Like most of us were victims.
2) Mrs. W stayed a victim. She never found the inner strength or external support or whatever it would have taken for her to stop being a victim. And, as so often happens, when a victim doesn't speak out, the abuser moves on and abuses others. We can be angry about that and point our fingers and say, she should have been strong enough to keep me from being victimized. But she wasn't. She was weak. (or maybe she was strong in all the wrong ways, like supporting her husband no matter what) Whatever. She stayed a victim.
3) Donna started out as a victim, too, and frankly, so did Craig. But at some point, they turned the corner and became abusers, themselves. They perpetuated the cycle. That's what makes them different from Mrs. W. in my opinion. From everything I've read and experienced first-hand Mrs. W could be cranky, opinionated, and let fly with quite the cutting remark, but mostly she was kind-hearted and generous and thoughtful and sad. She never became one of the abusers. That's why so many of us can feel sorry for her, and forgiver her weaknesses.
Like the difference between Harry Weirwille's wife and Howard Allen's wife. One stayed a victim, enabling others to be victimized. The other became an abuser in her own right. That, to me, is the fundamental difference. It is the difference between forgiving weakness, and forgiving intentional harm.
i have to agree, twinot. i understand that she had LIMITED options, but she really IS given a pass by many here. the fact that she was a "sweet lady" doesn't excuse her, any more than my being a "nice guy" excuses me! the truth is, many, MANY of us had to face some extremely limited options when we chose to stand against the organization we had basically given our whole lives to. many of us started over, with next to nothing to our name. didn't we?
can't we understand and forgive AND hold her accountable for what she did and didn't do?
Guess that maybe one would have to experience being abused, not just physically but mentally as well, in order to understand the utter hopelessness of the situation.
You have been taught all of your life that God, society and family all expect you to endure with stoiscim whatever your husband dishes out.
Maybe you stay to protect your children from his rages and tirades.
So you try a little harder to please, pray more, cook better, be better in bed...find a way to some how take the edge off of his anger...
There really was no out for a woman back then with kids if she didn`t have family to support her....there wasn`t welfare or food stamps. You just sucked it up and tried to endure the shame as best you could.
It is damned near impossible to stand up for yourself when you believe that in doing so you are going against GOD`S will....that HE won`t be able protect you or your children if you break those vows...
It is a lonely dark prison, you have to admire the lady for managing to not succumb to bitterness and cruelty herself imo.
Thank you for your input both of you make good points.
The good in this discussion is that it really makes people think about what is right in this type of situation. All of us will or have already been faced with tough decisions like this. People like Peter, Martin Luther, Tendale, Wycliff and others spoke up under what were harsher circumstances than any members of TWI faced. Their very lives were on the line, not to mention the potiential loss of family, friends and reputation.
Act 4:19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
It always comes down to a matter integrity of heart in the sight of God. Mrs. W was a nice lady but I think who she was, and her position has lead many to take it easy on her while others get slammed.
I once read a post of excath's that touched me deeply because I understood what that meant for her to be able to think and post that. I don't recall the words but she was tender and forgiving of her, if any needed giving. And if our excath can speak of her that way then it absolutely should be noted!
you give me WAY WAY too much credit cath. i have gone back and forth many times on how i feel. i think we've even had fights on here about it.
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rascal
Gonna weigh in here... Great points word wolf, I hope that you never stop keeping the record straight and people honest here. twinot, i have to say that you are sounding pretty darned judgemental and
rascal
Guess that maybe one would have to experience being abused, not just physically but mentally as well, in order to understand the utter hopelessness of the situation. You have been taught all of your
Stayed Too Long
I agree. Ermel Owns and Harry Wierwille had to have known what was going on, yet they receive rave reviews from ex-twi folk here at GSC. Their wive's must have known something fishy was in the works also, but they also get a pass. Emogene Allen and Wanda Wierwille I doubt were clueless either.
Yet Donna is fair game but no other trustee wife is held in such contempt. I think the reason Donna is fair game is because she said some pretty wicked things about people. If she had kept her mug shut, probably she would be held up on a pedestal also.
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dmiller
No double standard here.
She was the woman she knew to be.
Unlike her husband, who wished he were the man he knew to be.
<_<
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rhino
I wonder if she is perceived as more of a victim, along with some of the other wives. Donna seems to have gone in with eyes wide open though, or it is perceived that way. There were a lot of victims I guess, but some passed on the abuse more than others.
Also knowing about it and doing it are quite different. It was the rare bird that stood up to it and spoke up.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I believe that Mrs Wierwille WAS a victim...she sat alone in her house at night knowing that her husband was frolicking with some young girl in the back of the motorcoach...how did that make her feel?...
...Could she have grabbed a microphone and exposed the evil?....and then pack her bags and split?
Maybe so...but it's hard to criticize a victim for the hard thing she couldn't get herself to do...
May she rest in peace, she had a tough row to hoe.
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doojable
I don't know many details - I'm sure that there are some here that do.
Seems to me that the ones that should get chided (ie - torn a new one) are the ones that actually did the deeds - or actively set people up to get used, or who used people themselves in some fashion or another.
I have only heard rumors about D*nn@'s early days in the ministry - one might want to ask someone who has first hand information.
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ChattyKathy
My knowledge of Mrs. Wierwille is from knowing her personally as well as being a part of a ministry with her for working on 20 years.
I once read a post of excath's that touched me deeply because I understood what that meant for her to be able to think and post that. I don't recall the words but she was tender and forgiving of her, if any needed giving. And if our excath can speak of her that way then it absolutely should be noted!
If God were limited by his butthole children (or otherwise) then what a mess he'd be in. If you knew her you knew of her goodness given and her faithfulness to the little things. And she did this with the handicap of being who she was.
Among the other women not all would make it thru a godly metal detector.
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Abigail
In general, particularly in our culture today, I would say silence regarding what occured in TWI makes one guilty of at least being a part of the cover up.
However, Ms. W. was not raised in, nor did she live in the culture we have today. Ms. W. comes from an era were women were silent, where women were in a very real sense secondhand citizens. I strongly suspect speaking up was probably not much of an option for her - perhaps a very very strong woman could have, but who would have listened? How many would have dismissed her, believed whatever stories Dr. W. and others in the ministry made up about her? How would she have taken care of her children?
If I could fault her for anything, it would only be for not being strong enough to take on the fight, and quite honestly, given her circumstances I don't think I can fault her for even that.
For Donna M. the same is not so. She was raised in a different era and lives in a different era. She had many options in front of her.
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johniam
I think Dot Matrix's account of speaking with Mrs. W on the motorcoach and Mrs. W bursting into tears is telling. Of course it bothered her (Mrs. W). All those people mentioned had to have a day of decision; whether to stay and hope the godly outweighed the ungodly, or leave and basically uproot their whole lives. The pressure must have been great. Only God could really judge their hearts.
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WordWolf
There's been a number of discussions, where a number of people made a number of comments.
Some you'll probably agree with, some you'll probably DISagree with.
Here's the ones I remember offhand.
-Mrs W could be super-specific with Way Builders, even to the point of working counter
to the best judgements of professional builders. One poster said he had to redo a
day's work to a lower work-standard because she wanted the aesthetics different.
-That account was an exception to most stories of her. Where vpw was full of bluster
about his own greatness, and meanness when things weren't PRECISELY how he wanted
them, for the most part, she's been reported as rather subdued and reserved.
Nobody's come forth with accounts of her screaming at people or humiliating them.
So, she's remembered as someone whose actions were better.
-As important as what she DID was, what she did NOT do was more important-
she did NOT rape the flock, drug anyone, or participate in any of the conspiracies
TO do any of those. She's not reported to have even PRIVATE vices, in comparison
to vpw's PUBLIC vices and addictions to alcohol and tobacco.
======
That having been said, it's a fair question why she's not condemned.
After all, she did not come forth and give testimony against vpw the criminal.
Therefore, one would ask-why didn't she?
A more petty person may lead in and say she liked the money and general
higher standard of living she got. Perhaps that person would be right.
However, she avoided conspicuous displays of wealth.
(No fancy cars, fur coats, or Imelda Marcos shoe collections.)
Further, when she married vpw, he was seriously broke.
He WAS already the convincing talker he met, and he was already a
candidate for "the ministry."
One might speculate he convinced her-at first-that he was a godly man with
godly conduct. (He convinced us, why not her?)
So, perhaps (I'm speculating here) she didn't see his true nature emerge
until much later, much "too late".
What does "too late" mean?
Just as one must understand the times, customs and cultures in the Bible,
one must understand her in terms of her own time/culture.
At that point in history, divorce was nearly unheard-of.
Women stood by their men, right or wrong.
She already had children with him before he was overtly evil to even the
discerning eye. It was unheard of to divorce with kids on the line.
Would she have to leave them behind?
Would she need to support them?
Was she ready to raise them without a father?
Perhaps people living NOW can suppose those were simple decisions THEN.
The other possibilities would have been to "turn state's evidence" against
vpw- either exposing him to the police or to the ministry.
If she "went public" in the ministry, almost nobody would take her seriously.
vpw had built up a great reputation as deeply and uniquely spiritual.
She had not. If there was a question, HE would be believed.
If she "went public" to the police, she'd need EVIDENCE.
Direct testimony of victims who left was hard since they'd been run off.
Direct testimony of victims who stayed was harder since they were intimidated
into accepting vpw's doctrine of "the lockbox."
Further, vpw had a criminal gang prepared to facilitate his rapes and druggings
by doing things like lying on the witness stand.
Could she use videotaped evidence?
Not when portable video cameras DIDN'T EXIST.
So, simply put, if she stepped forward, she stood to lose EVERYTHING
and succeed in NOTHING.
Worse was being married to him-when he could be a mean drunk.
Imagine being married to a drunken, belligerent tyrant who barked orders
and brooked no dissent. I never saw him hit her, but I'd be surprised if he
went as far as he did and NEVER hit her. He certainly grew up thinking violence
was an option. At his BURIAL, she was heart to say "He was a mean man."
She knew he'd "get even" if she ever tried to expose him.
Did she ever help some of his victims?
One stepped forward and said she arrived in time to interrupt vpw's moves on her,
enabling her to contrive an exit.
=====================
So, on a purely moral front,
yes, it is wrong that she did not step forward and report a criminal.
However,
for reasons mentioned above (and others left out), it is understandable (if wrong)
that she would conclude speaking up would only harm her and her children,
and it would be best to not interfere (much) with his felonies.
Double-standard? Not quite.
It was still wrong-but we understand.
She felt powerless for many reasons.
In short, what one would ask of her in this case was more than she was able to give-
and it seems she wished she WAS able.....
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Sunesis
Her and VP were dirt poor. Where was she going to go if she left? In those days women just did not leave their husbands. She was from a small town and would have been shunned. From what I heard back then, she couldn't go back to her family's farm, some of them had mental problems. I think she married VP at a young age to get away from her home. She had no money, nowhere to run, little kids. Yes, she knew what he was doing and it broke her heart. She had no power. I also think he would have made her life hell if she wanted to leave and would have made sure she was never allowed on grounds or to see the kids again. I'm sure there are reasons we'll never know as to why she stayed.
I think she is given a pass because of the times, and because she treated people so wonderfully and graciously, she made the best of a bad situation. She carved out her own niche in intererior decorating and VP basically left her alone to do what she wanted. Plus, she was in charge of nursing and took care of people when sick. She never had to wish she had been the person she knew to be at the end of her life, as the above poster said. I guarantee you she felt great relief when he was gone.
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twinot
God does Wordwolf always go on and on and on.....
I knew both Mrs. VP and Mrs. Loy during my time in the Corp. I thank you for your comments on this thread but don't agree with your conclusions. Mrs. VP was sweet and kind but a lot of people could have been spared a lot of pain if she would have called Vic on his exploits. Do you think God would have backed her up just a little?
Abraham Lincoln "To sin by silence when they should protest makes cowards of men."
Forgiveness is not a question here, I certainly forgive her and others that knew about what was going on. I have asked myself what would I have done if I discovered all this was going on? It would not have been easy to speak up but Mrs. was in a very good position to do something about it compared to most others.
But I still find it interesting that most here are so willing to make excuses for her silience. I understand your arguements about the time period in which she was raised but I guarntee there were ways to confront old Vic so that he would have cooled his jets. Ways that would not have required leaving him or going public. Just the threat of revealing his exploits would have been enough to get him to control his mind. She could have easily gathered evidence that could have been used to get him to simmer down now.
Thank God Paul Allen stood up and confronted the whole thing!
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Georgio Jessio
My beef with Donna has more to do with her own actions than those of her husband's. Mrs. W , who I knew, was a sweet woman and IMO a victim. Mrs W never used a micraphone to publicly bash people, lie and be hurtful. Donna was involved, Mrs. W was meekly in the wings. Apples and oranges.
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simonzelotes
I'm not out to condemn or exponge anyone here,since I really cannot know what was in the heart of an individual...Since both Mr. and Mrs. W. are both gone now,we'll never know what pacts they may have worked out with eachother...It does seem to me that she did have the power to bring down the house...VPW often flaunted his loving wife and family on main stages at the Rock and such....A divorced man of God?....That would have burst my bubble....
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ChattyKathy
If it were as easy as one person being able to stop either of those mogs it would have been done several times by other than the Mrs. in both cases. The hierarchy set in place assured damage was controlled. Paul and Fern (of which I knew personally) were instrumental in the latter mog's downfall but I assure you other people than them made their impacts in ways just as damaging to Craig.
The good Mrs. Wierwille did in the name of God has not been forgotten by him or the recipients of her gentle soul.
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rascal
Gonna weigh in here... Great points word wolf, I hope that you never stop keeping the record straight and people honest here.
twinot, i have to say that you are sounding pretty darned judgemental and harsh about a lady who most of us understand didn`t have a lot of options.
She was his first *con* and by the time she found out differently she was stuck with small children.
Geeemany.....She believed that she was getting away from her awfull home, she believed that vpw was going to be a minister and that she would be allowed to be a missionary....she had an honest heart to serve God.
I know that I believed the twi sheet about marriage, as I am sure did she.....about being honor bound to God to obey my mariage vows no matter what the husband did ....even in THIS day and age.
There are a lot of us that believed that God required us to maintain our silence and pain in order to be concidered a *virtuous* woman.
We let twi define what aGod expected of a wife and so put up with whatever transpired because we obeyed a higher law.
We were taught that if we obeyed the husband, that God would honor our commitment and make everything alright anyway.
Guess I can understand praying steadfast day after day, trusting that God would intercede....watching my husband become more cruel and unbearable year after year....tearfully brokenly begging God to *fix* things.
I did read where Mrs W shared that when she once confronted vpw, he simply told her that if she didn`t like it she could just leave.
She had no where to go with small children, and felt honor bound to God to obey her marriage vows.
It is a wonder that she remained so unsullied and above the sin and filth that vpw introduced into their life.
Yeah, she lost it a time or two....but who in the he ll wouldn`t having to live with that shame and humiliation....are we forgetting how persuasive that .... head was?
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likeaneagle
Im sure she was commited to God as well,right or wronged..
She, like many wifes, Clergy or not, held the standard "God 1st".
Therefore you dont reveal.
Im not professing to know anything about marrital affairs..I just know the standard set.
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doojable
Are SURE about this?!!!! Do you have any experience with an abusive spouse? You are thinking about vpw as if he were logical and normal.
I had an encounter with someone he "trained." I assure you the man became dangerous when confronted and he saw the potential for losing all that he had.
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twinot
I wanted to pose the question so that it could be discussed here. I know that Mrs. W was in a challenging position and that she was human like all of us. I spent 10 years in leadership and never had a clue that all the sexual misconduct was going on right under my nose. Heck I didn't even get wind of any rumors about LCM although I did hear once that VP had been accused.
What each one of us would have done is up for debate. I still can't help but think that Mrs. W and others who knew couldn't have done something behind the scenes to get Vic to stop. I suppose that many that knew and could have gathered hard evidence were afraid to call his bluff. The thought of losing your wife and children and most of your friends and any family that were involved is sobering. When Peter stood up on the Day of Pentecost and openly spoke for God I'm sure that this type of thing was on his mind. I'm glad he didn't succom to the fear.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Twinot, In Karl Kahler's book, one of the chapters talks about VP's attitude while filming the class, and suppossed attested by Dave Anderson and Peter Wade, one day during one of the breaks in filming PFAL, Mrs. Wierwille decided to get some plastic or fancy paper roses to be placed in the vase on "Doc's" desk. He saw her doing that and went into a screaming tirade, almost getting ready to slap her in front of everyone. She broke down in tears. Some reported that Wierwille nearly threatened the entire crew with violence if anyone tried to protect Dorethea. After the class was filmed, both Dave and Peter left TWI in disgust. And this is 1969. By the way, Ermal was retired as BOD because he disagreed with VPW over the book Jesus Christ is not God(seems he still was Trinitarian).
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TheHighWay
Okay, here's my take on it:
1) Mrs. W was a victim. Like most of us were victims.
2) Mrs. W stayed a victim. She never found the inner strength or external support or whatever it would have taken for her to stop being a victim. And, as so often happens, when a victim doesn't speak out, the abuser moves on and abuses others. We can be angry about that and point our fingers and say, she should have been strong enough to keep me from being victimized. But she wasn't. She was weak. (or maybe she was strong in all the wrong ways, like supporting her husband no matter what) Whatever. She stayed a victim.
3) Donna started out as a victim, too, and frankly, so did Craig. But at some point, they turned the corner and became abusers, themselves. They perpetuated the cycle. That's what makes them different from Mrs. W. in my opinion. From everything I've read and experienced first-hand Mrs. W could be cranky, opinionated, and let fly with quite the cutting remark, but mostly she was kind-hearted and generous and thoughtful and sad. She never became one of the abusers. That's why so many of us can feel sorry for her, and forgiver her weaknesses.
Like the difference between Harry Weirwille's wife and Howard Allen's wife. One stayed a victim, enabling others to be victimized. The other became an abuser in her own right. That, to me, is the fundamental difference. It is the difference between forgiving weakness, and forgiving intentional harm.
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sprawled out
i have to agree, twinot. i understand that she had LIMITED options, but she really IS given a pass by many here. the fact that she was a "sweet lady" doesn't excuse her, any more than my being a "nice guy" excuses me! the truth is, many, MANY of us had to face some extremely limited options when we chose to stand against the organization we had basically given our whole lives to. many of us started over, with next to nothing to our name. didn't we?
can't we understand and forgive AND hold her accountable for what she did and didn't do?
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rascal
Guess that maybe one would have to experience being abused, not just physically but mentally as well, in order to understand the utter hopelessness of the situation.
You have been taught all of your life that God, society and family all expect you to endure with stoiscim whatever your husband dishes out.
Maybe you stay to protect your children from his rages and tirades.
So you try a little harder to please, pray more, cook better, be better in bed...find a way to some how take the edge off of his anger...
There really was no out for a woman back then with kids if she didn`t have family to support her....there wasn`t welfare or food stamps. You just sucked it up and tried to endure the shame as best you could.
It is damned near impossible to stand up for yourself when you believe that in doing so you are going against GOD`S will....that HE won`t be able protect you or your children if you break those vows...
It is a lonely dark prison, you have to admire the lady for managing to not succumb to bitterness and cruelty herself imo.
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twinot
Sprawled and Highway:
Thank you for your input both of you make good points.
The good in this discussion is that it really makes people think about what is right in this type of situation. All of us will or have already been faced with tough decisions like this. People like Peter, Martin Luther, Tendale, Wycliff and others spoke up under what were harsher circumstances than any members of TWI faced. Their very lives were on the line, not to mention the potiential loss of family, friends and reputation.
Act 4:19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
It always comes down to a matter integrity of heart in the sight of God. Mrs. W was a nice lady but I think who she was, and her position has lead many to take it easy on her while others get slammed.
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excathedra
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