That is pretty funny, Bliss. I had to look up the word "intercalation" - referring to thinking of their children as such - I guess it's a dispensationalist thing - "intercalation" - 1. to insert [as a day] in a calendar.
Funny, I had to look up the same thing. What is sad though is in the Way, that was reality. Children were to be ''added'' to your day....................
I can really relate to the ''highligher'' colors. I don't think I had a different color for each ''administration'' but, close to it!
They get funnier and awfully personal when you let it sink in...................... :blink:
Alright, Bliss - true confession time. This is off-topic but when you mentioned using different colored highlighters for marking administrations - I had a Wide Center Margin Bible. Man, you can cram tons of notes in one of those - instead of the typical ones that border around the outer edges of the text! ....I wrote a lot of notes ranging from PFAL to Corps teachings in there - in different colored ink pens - no scheme or color-code system - I just liked the splash of color! ........ We left TWI and were having a garage sale before abandoning our post [our Practicum Year Corps assignment city] and I sold that heavily annotated Bible....Every once in awhile I can still recall the nice young lady that bought my Bible. You talk about feeling guilty - I wish I had her address or phone number - I'd issue a recall - no wait - I don't want it back! Maybe just tell her to contact the city's local Hazardous Material Handling Unit!
Ya know, time was where I thought, actually thought, that believing one side over another had some actual meaning to reality.
As tho' the goodness/morality/discernment abilities of people could really be determined by which side of the theological argument that individual was on.
Very similar to judging people in relation to the trinitarian/unitarian conflict. ... Total waste of time.
Thank you so much GarthP2000, Belle, and Mr. Hammeroni for responding. And thank you especially Belle for welcoming me to this wonderful site I accidentally discovered a couple of day ago or so!
I love jokes and such also just like you all, but at this time I need to inform you that you are in the process of breaking my heart. (I am sorry to say that, because I really don't want make you feel bad in return, but that you may understand and be careful not to make it much worse, for I could not take much more of it.)
The truth is that you are not taking me seriously, and (contrary to the advice in Proverbs 18:13) you are answering this matter before you have heard anything about it, which is not wise.
Listen to me please...I am not "itching" to "bump my gums" about some "new thing in the Word". I am not "anxious" or in some wild frenzy about it. If you don't want to hear, simply say so in plain words. Then my responsibility is to try to plant elsewhere. But please don't scoff at me. That hurts more than you all know! (and I know you don't really intend any harm, so that's not really a problem)
How would you know if this were just a silly notion from someone who is "hashing the Word to pieces", having really nothing at all, all the while supposing that looking into it would be just a big waste of time, unless you at least tried to take a look at it, and judge it according to its own merit?
I am writing to you now not about whether or not you ARE interested in this topic, but so you may understand things a bit and treat me with a little more kindness, that I don't suffer any more from the rhetoric. I suffer enough each day already over it from those whom I suppose should be caring the most, yet for 18 years now all it has done is to cause heartache, yet I just cannot let it go for it seems too important to give up on.
You see folks, I have been rather careful in not exposing much about myself thus far on this site because I am aware that many others visit here and I am still fellowshipping with TWI. For now, I am only being cautious about my identity, lest they could also read here what I REALLY THINK. SUPRISED??? And please don't ask me why I am still there after over 30 years, despite what I have seen! You all can relate to that. Maybe I'm just a "die hard". Maybe I'm just too "blind" to see what really goes on there. Maybe I am just too damned "forgivng", or too damned "patient". I have my reasons, and this "topic" might just be my way OUT, but I must do this carefully.
I have been attempting over the years to inform TWI about this "wonderful discovery". I have, in one way or another been trying to introduce it to every FELLOWSHIP, BRANCH, LIMB AND REGION COORDINATOR since its beginning around 1988. (long time to hold such a "silly notion", huh??!!)
It seems that none have ever "really listened". Thinking carnally, I could suppose that early on I could blame myself for not explaining it properly because I had "jumped the gun" without more detailed proof as it was developing. As time went by (and with nobody to help, no assistance offered, no "study partner", etc) I still managed to continue learning more. And I thank God for that. But even then, it still seemed that I lacked "ammunition" each time I approached the next leader after I had patiently waited for his reassignment and a replacement to arrive. Truth is, I really cannot blame myself because that is just PLAIN WRONG TO DO!
Well then, I suppose I could blame THEM for not seeming to care about me, because the are just "too damned busy" with the "work of the ministry"...weddings to plan, meetings and functions to put together, classes to run, other people's personal problems to attend to...especially among the "new grads", etc etc. Could I really blame them for not having enough "time" for me? I tried not to bug them much at all, or let them know how frustrated I was becoming over this.
I would simply approach one of them with a "little tidbit" of information, hoping they might become interested enough to ask more about it. That way, I wouldn't have to take up a lot of their time, and they could spend it rather on the many other things "on their plates" (which are pretty darned full already). Maybe I'm just too kind to them by allowing myself to continually stand in the "back of the line", choosing rather to suffer a bit while other people are taken care of.
But I'm afraid that these little bits of information were truly not given with much foundation under them (which they could have had for the asking), and somehow each time it seems that the "jury was in to render its decision" even before I arrived to discuss any more abou it. (they judged the matter before they got much evidence at all!)
Well, I cannot REALLY blame them any more than I can blame myself, now can I? To do that would be judging them, and acting as though they really didn't care at all! If I KNEW for SURE that this unbelief was "apeitheia" (know but don't care), I could leave them in a moment! But as long as I don't know that then it is safer to assume the unbelief is "apistia" (just don't know enough). And that is what keeps me "hanging on".
The true blame is not on people anyways, as we know, because we have an adversary. The best I could figure in order to "keep the peace" was to suppose that the time was not right for this in God's eyes...that it was ahead of its time.
So I waited...and waited.
I discovered a couple of things about it that actually contradicted what had been taught on that subject for over 50 years, and knew then that it was time to let them know, just to improve our understanding on the subject.
To make a long story short, it seems now that they do not care. I have it locked in so tight, that it just cannot be successfully refuted any longer. I have almost tried "forcing the issue", but now that borders on my "appearing evil", and I cannot afford to appear loud and angry, impatient, proud, and a host of other things which could easily enter in. Then I would be considered a fool for sure...and I cannot let that happen, for it would be my fault for starting it by going in that direction in the first place.
I am almost to the point of supposing that just as Jesus went to his own and was rejected, and said "Lo, I turn to the Gentiles", then I too, having something to say to those who I suppose should love me and who reject it as well, that "Lo, I turn to the Gentiles", meaning that I will take this elsewhere.
I came to this site searching for help from many of those who I suppose still care for IT IS WRITTEN, just as much as those still within TWI "say" they do. If you continue to scoff at me, or ridicule, or tell me I am crazy about all this, or proud, or any such other thing before you even dare to check it out, then you are no better than them - perhaps worse, for that is only like rubbing salt in the wound, reminding me of all the suffering I have endured of them because of their lack of care for me in this matter over the years, for I have been through many such a thing during the course of this "investigation". Though I still manage to forgive them (supposing they know not what they do), I still hurt night after night wanting them to have it, and to change a bit of doctrine that they might see a wonderful gem as a result of a coupld of simple changes.
DO YOU SUPPOSE THEY STILL DESERVE IT FIRST (if there is anything to it at all)?
Or do you suppose I should try the same things here very long if I continue to get the same
uncaring responses I did from them?
Or do you suppose I might just leave this wonderful site which appeared from "nowhere" as a haven to rest a bit "from the fight", and just try and publish my work out in the WORLD instead?
What do you all suggest I do?
I love you. I believe you mean well. I just need some "true friends" again.
Wow, that was a lot of info there Spectrum....Welcome to Greasespot!
I started this thread so long ago, I had to refresh my memory.
Let me just say, that there are some of us, who have since leaving the Way, continued to allow the Holy Spirit to teach us and appreciate the scriptures very much ...
actually being better students of the bible then we ever were while IN>
Having said that, they are some that want nothing to do with the bible or even God for that matter. That is their choice. No matter.
Most of us believe that Weirwille built his research on sand, and plagerism. I do not believe a thing that ministry has said anymore, because it's foundations are entrenched with lies and deceit.
What brings us together here, is the commonality of having The Way in our past (or present) and relating to eachother on that level.
Don't be afraid to post or start a new thread on the topic you are passionate about.
Debate is good.
While in the Way, it was their way or the highway, right?
So, enjoy the discussions, and disagreements ......(as long as they are not attacks). Nobody wants to be attacked for their beliefs, although it does happen.
Try not to take it personally.
We are all sinful creatures, and we all make mistakes. NO matter what side of the belief coin you're on.
But, as soon as you tell others that YOU HAVE IT ALL FIGURED OUT, red flags go up! That is WAY SPEAK. Pharasee speak, Elitism speak......
So, present your case, but also be willing to have a teachable spirit and listen to the others point of view (or research)...
You just might learn something. As well as we might learn from you.
And by the way..................... I personally don't believe in ''dispensations'' anymore. Through lots of prayer and research.
That doensn't mean I can't learn something from what you discovered. :)
The truth is that you are not taking me seriously, and (contrary to the advice in Proverbs 18:13) you are answering this matter before you have heard anything about it, which is not wise.
Listen to me please...I am not "itching" to "bump my gums" about some "new thing in the Word". I am not "anxious" or in some wild frenzy about it. If you don't want to hear, simply say so in plain words. Then my responsibility is to try to plant elsewhere. But please don't scoff at me. That hurts more than you all know! (and I know you don't really intend any harm, so that's not really a problem)
How would you know if this were just a silly notion from someone who is "hashing the Word to pieces", having really nothing at all, all the while supposing that looking into it would be just a big waste of time, unless you at least tried to take a look at it, and judge it according to its own merit?
Mel
What a beautiful response. I haven't figured it all out yet, Mel...But I understand what you are saying - I am experiencing the same thing around here. But I think we come here because this is our familiar. You would be suprised though at how people have changed.
And as to you still being "In"...It's your call. Stay or go. No guilt about either decision. Go Big or Go Home.
Yours, mine, theirs, ours - all of it - is simply superstitious nonsense. You have no irrefutable objective proof of any of the nonsense you propound so adamantly. So maybe don't be quite to quick in your relegating of everyone else in the history of the world off to hell, huh?
Yours, mine, theirs, ours - all of it - is simply superstitious nonsense. You have no irrefutable objective proof of any of the nonsense you propound so adamantly. So maybe don't be quite to quick in your relegating of everyone else in the history of the world off to hell, huh?
You seem SO bitter. Sad.
But, I think that's why it's called faith, George.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
... but at this time I need to inform you that you are in the process of breaking my heart.
((snif))
And please don't ask me why I am still there after over 30 years, despite what I have seen!
I don't think we need to ask; it's kinda obvious as to why. <_<
You all can relate to that.
Really? ... Relate to being in TWI for over 30 years? ... And still staying? Well, maybe a few can (who shall remain nameless ;) ), but I'd be willing to bet that most here cannot.
I am writing to you now not about whether or not you ARE interested in this topic, but so you may understand things a bit and treat me with a little more kindness, that I don't suffer any more from the rhetoric. I suffer enough each day already over it from those whom I suppose should be caring the most, yet for 18 years now all it has done is to cause heartache, yet I just cannot let it go for it seems too important to give up on.
Look chief, you ought to consider that the rhetoric is the *least* of things that hurt you or anyone else. I mean, c'mon! Which is worse in your opinion?
1) Reading some mockery of a ministry that has let just about all of us here down in so many damn ways? Or, ...
2) Being the first hand victim/target/survivor of said sucky ministry in so many damn ways? You tell us!
So when you come here to Greasespot, allow me to tell you what GS is not; a overly-polite garden party where we all 'have our minds renewed to the Word' (Wierwille's, yours, or anyone else's). No, what this is is an open society of posters, an encouraging sign for people to just be themselves and allow others to be themselves. ... A society that was frowned on by The Way International, Wierwille, Martindale, and their crowd of losers.
So welcome to reality, and accept it for what it is.
Nope, sorry, not bitter. Not terrribly sad either. Just willing to succumb to the obvious, that's all.
That, and maybe a touch of impatience with the smug, self-righteousness that is so often the hallmark of the deluded.
And why is it that Christian faith = good,
"Other" religious faith = bad?
Yours, mine, theirs, ours - all of it - is simply superstitious nonsense. You have no irrefutable objective proof of any of the nonsense you propound so adamantly. So maybe don't be quite to quick in your relegating of everyone else in the history of the world off to hell, huh?
I agree with you about the smug, self-righteousness that is the hallmark of the deluded. It can be very trying at times.
I ask the same question about other religious faith = bad... Especially when the other faith is not the "right" kind of christian faith. That's a double-whammy.
As to that proof I don't have, may I say you can neither prove that it is NOT true. And I have never relegated anyone, living or dead to hell. That is HIS job.
"To believe your own thought, to believe that what is true for you in your private heart is true for all men-that is genius."
What a beautiful response. I haven't figured it all out yet, Mel...But I understand what you are saying - I am experiencing the same thing around here. But I think we come here because this is our familiar. You would be suprised though at how people have changed.
And as to you still being "In"...It's your call. Stay or go. No guilt about either decision. Go Big or Go Home.
Thank you so much for your objectivitity Rachael - and most especially for seeing the "good" in me. I mean no harm.
While is is true that I believe I really DO have something worthwhile to those who love to see how the scriptures fit together (without contradiction), I do not claim to be some sort of GURU with "all the answers" either!
Truth is, what I do have is rather "vast" - that is, it could take quite some time for someone to see what I have found - and I am sure that even what I have discovered about the "topic" thus far is merely "scratching the surface". I believe that it will be presented in such an orderly and logical fashion that anyone with a little common sense, and a respect for God (as being a most excellent author!) could see the point very clearly with a little patience.
However, to try and start a new post about it would surely start a rather large controversy, I am sure! I suspect that "inumerable tangents" would arise and before long the entire "concept" would seem so ridiculous that even fair-minded and objective readers would "just get lost in the shuffle" of it.
Even now, already things I have said are being taken out of context and twisted by those who do not care. (and I have yet to really present ANYTHING AUTHORITATIVE AT ALL ABOUT "my topic" TO THIS POINT!!!)
I would love to try and be kind to any of those who seem to ridicule without cause (supposing that they really did'nt mean to be that way), but more and more of them would take their place, and I would soon run out of time even trying to "catalog" just who is truly listening that they still have a chance to continue investigating for themselves, and see what I see.
What a confusing mess! To me it would be like trying to juggle a hundred objects at the same time!
Let it suffice at this...I am willing to share what I have for an individual or two to start with, and see what they think of it. Then perhaps I might have the courage to pursue it on a larger basis, being convinced that even some can indeed see it the way I would present it, and I am no longer "alone" with it.
Perhaps I have missed the mark and I have really nothing at all! That will be discovered in time sure enough, for I am sure there are many around here who know a whole lot more about the Bible than me. And in that event, I could just drop the whole thing if it can be sucessfully refuted in an honest and fair debate!
At least in that case, I will not have made a complete fool of myself in front of THOUSANDS, but just a couple, in the event that I am truly mistaken.
It is wrong to just try and force feed people. According to a certain verse, "they that hunger and thirst after righeousness" (basically the right way to do things) "shall be FILLED". And the word FILLED is "filled according to appetite".
How am I to know who is hungry for what I have to give - and to what extent? Why should I take the chance of trying to force a 7-course banquet down someone's throat who is merely only looking for a snack, or just a nice lunch or dinner? I will tell you how --- All I do is simply ASK:
Who thinks they are hungry enough for this "feast"?
I THINK THAT IS FAIR ENOUGH....The rest shall have to wait.
I Love Your Kind and Understanding Heart, Rachael!
I have decided to GO BIG! If it does not work, then I shall GO HOME, just like you suggested!
Sweetheart, this is a discussion forum and there will be people who agree with you and there will be people who disagree with you. There will be people who are nice and there will be people who are not nice. How you handle those people is up to you. :)
We do not know you, so how can you look like a fool? Why would you look like a fool? Just because you took the initiative to research, think and put together something on your own? That's not foolish at all. :) Your conclusions may be wrong according to some points of view, but that's not foolish either - it is what it is.
Maybe it is your presentation that has started you off on the wrong foot and not what you have to share.
Also, it is considered "teasing" in my book to say you have some great information and then ask who is interested like you're wanting us to salivate like Pavlov's dogs all over some wonderful information some stranger is dangling in front of us. I don't beg. You want to share and discuss what's burning inside of you? Great! Please do! I love a good discussion. But, know that I, personally, am never going to beg you to share what you seem to think you know and I am not promising to agree with it - especially if it agrees with anything we learned in TWI.
I have been attempting over the years to inform TWI about this "wonderful discovery". I have, in one way or another been trying to introduce it to every FELLOWSHIP, BRANCH, LIMB AND REGION COORDINATOR since its beginning around 1988. (long time to hold such a "silly notion", huh??!!)
Oakspear and I both taught contrary to TWI doctrine in fellowship before we left - some got it, most did not. Mostly, in my opinion is because people in TWI are brain-dead - they don't care anymore - they are apathethic and just go through the motions. They wouldn't know something exciting if it hit them upside the head.
It seems that none have ever "really listened". Thinking carnally, I could suppose that early on I could blame myself for not explaining it properly because I had "jumped the gun" without more detailed proof as it was developing. As time went by (and with nobody to help, no assistance offered, no "study partner", etc) I still managed to continue learning more. And I thank God for that. But even then, it still seemed that I lacked "ammunition" each time I approached the next leader after I had patiently waited for his reassignment and a replacement to arrive. Truth is, I really cannot blame myself because that is just PLAIN WRONG TO DO!
You can not reason with die-hard TWIts - they do not think, reason, deduce or even consider things the same way one does without TWI blinders on. It is not your fault, it is the audience is not ready, willing or able to come to any conclusion other than what TWI tells them. I seriously doubt it is your lack of "ammunition" that is the problem, but rather the audience. That, I deduce based on my own experiences trying to do the same.
Well then, I suppose I could blame THEM for not seeming to care about me, because the are just "too damned busy" with the "work of the ministry"...weddings to plan, meetings and functions to put together, classes to run, other people's personal problems to attend to...especially among the "new grads", etc etc. Could I really blame them for not having enough "time" for me? I tried not to bug them much at all, or let them know how frustrated I was becoming over this.
Well, you have a point there - TWI leaders do not care about people - they care about numbers, money and position. If you rock the boat, you might jeopardize their position, income or lifestyle and well, we can't have that going on in TWI, now can we?
How about starting a thread on this fascinating research that you've done. There are some really genius folks here who will help you work through it and help you see where you're right, wrong, on the right track but just not there, etc.... I am not one of those geniuses. That's why I come to the Doctrinal Dungeon with my questions.
Maybe I'm just a "die hard". Maybe I'm just too "blind" to see what really goes on there. Maybe I am just too damned "forgivng", or too damned "patient".
OK, I volunteer. Send me whatever you like via email and I'll take a look at it. I think the dispensationalism of the Way was quite in error. I haven't had real contact with any "innies" in a long time, though I've stayed in touch with a number of folks who might as well have stayed in! Looking forward to hearing from you.
danhaasathomeATyahoo.com ( replace only the second "AT" with the ampersand ----> @ )
By all means, post your info in doctrinal here (if you dare!) .... Bliss and Belle have given you good advice!
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T-Bone
That is pretty funny, Bliss. I had to look up the word "intercalation" - referring to thinking of their children as such - I guess it's a dispensationalist thing - "intercalation" - 1. to insert [as a day] in a calendar.
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bliss
Funny, I had to look up the same thing. What is sad though is in the Way, that was reality. Children were to be ''added'' to your day....................
I can really relate to the ''highligher'' colors. I don't think I had a different color for each ''administration'' but, close to it!
They get funnier and awfully personal when you let it sink in...................... :blink:
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T-Bone
Alright, Bliss - true confession time. This is off-topic but when you mentioned using different colored highlighters for marking administrations - I had a Wide Center Margin Bible. Man, you can cram tons of notes in one of those - instead of the typical ones that border around the outer edges of the text! ....I wrote a lot of notes ranging from PFAL to Corps teachings in there - in different colored ink pens - no scheme or color-code system - I just liked the splash of color!
........ We left TWI and were having a garage sale before abandoning our post [our Practicum Year Corps assignment city] and I sold that heavily annotated Bible....Every once in awhile I can still recall the nice young lady that bought my Bible. You talk about feeling guilty - I wish I had her address or phone number - I'd issue a recall - no wait - I don't want it back! Maybe just tell her to contact the city's local Hazardous Material Handling Unit! 
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GarthP2000
Ya know, time was where I thought, actually thought, that believing one side over another had some actual meaning to reality.
As tho' the goodness/morality/discernment abilities of people could really be determined by which side of the theological argument that individual was on.
Very similar to judging people in relation to the trinitarian/unitarian conflict. ... Total waste of time.
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TheInvisibleDan
You know you've attained dispensational divine status when...
you leave a list of household chores for your kids to do in case you are "raptured".
Funny stuff, Bliss.
;)
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T-Bone
In case you're ever in Sicily remember - oinkanomia is Italian for "That's a-notta my pig!" :)
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spectrum49
You Know You've Attained Dispensationalist Divine Status....
When what you have found (after you have discovered just what are the TRUE SEVEN ADMINISTRATIONS)
actually fits with the rest of the Bible - From START to finish!
You Know You've Attained Dispensationalist Divine Status....
When all you have found is also corroborated by that which God had also designed in Science.
(and is not limited only to only the areas of Sound and Light, but that's really not a bad start!)
You Know You've Attained Dispensationalist Divine Status....
When even all of this (as a result of the proper understanding of these divisions), opens up whole new
vistas of information in many of the "cleaner sections" of our Bibles. (Many notes will be there now,
where before were no notes at all!)
You Know You've Attained Dispensationalist Divine Status....
When all this lines up so well, that you find new meaning to the ORDER of the first 7 manifestations of
the gift of holy spirit in I Co 12, which line up perfectly with these administrations, and even with some
things as they are written IN ORDER in the First Chapter of the Bible itself!
And oh, by the way, I have something for you "scoffers" who think its funny about using different colored
magic markers for these administrations. (Whether you meant it or not, "Much truth is spoken in jest!")
Anybody REALLY INTERESTED in seeing what I have discovered about administrations? It is really the
"best of both worlds". Dr. Bullinger made some progress in this field, and Dr. Wierwille "refined" it a bit.
What I have is not only a combination of the best of both, but some additional information as well which
ought to keep you EXCITED for decades!
But above all folks, please excuse me for suggesting I have reached "Divine Status" concerning all this...
I was merely being a bit cute with the exact wording of your "thread", which I suppose was really only
to be a joke in the first place, right?
But what I have is really no joke. Anybody curious?
"mystery"
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GarthP2000
Yeppers folks, what we have here is:
"Mike Wars - The Revenge of Mike's Disciples!"
<_<
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Belle
You Know You've Attained Dispensationalist Divine Status, when .......................................
you're convinced that you've attained divine status with "new light" you just can't wait to share.
Funny, Bliss! Thanks for sharing!
Are we the only ones who also had that four-colored pen for better categorizing of our notes?
And, Spectrum, welcome to the cafe.
First order is on the house.... Would you like some pie?
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Ham
For "some of us.."
"new light" merely informs us not just how wrong we are.. but how wrong we might possibly ever be..
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spectrum49
Thank you so much GarthP2000, Belle, and Mr. Hammeroni for responding. And thank you especially Belle for welcoming me to this wonderful site I accidentally discovered a couple of day ago or so!
I love jokes and such also just like you all, but at this time I need to inform you that you are in the process of breaking my heart. (I am sorry to say that, because I really don't want make you feel bad in return, but that you may understand and be careful not to make it much worse, for I could not take much more of it.)
The truth is that you are not taking me seriously, and (contrary to the advice in Proverbs 18:13) you are answering this matter before you have heard anything about it, which is not wise.
Listen to me please...I am not "itching" to "bump my gums" about some "new thing in the Word". I am not "anxious" or in some wild frenzy about it. If you don't want to hear, simply say so in plain words. Then my responsibility is to try to plant elsewhere. But please don't scoff at me. That hurts more than you all know! (and I know you don't really intend any harm, so that's not really a problem)
How would you know if this were just a silly notion from someone who is "hashing the Word to pieces", having really nothing at all, all the while supposing that looking into it would be just a big waste of time, unless you at least tried to take a look at it, and judge it according to its own merit?
I am writing to you now not about whether or not you ARE interested in this topic, but so you may understand things a bit and treat me with a little more kindness, that I don't suffer any more from the rhetoric. I suffer enough each day already over it from those whom I suppose should be caring the most, yet for 18 years now all it has done is to cause heartache, yet I just cannot let it go for it seems too important to give up on.
You see folks, I have been rather careful in not exposing much about myself thus far on this site because I am aware that many others visit here and I am still fellowshipping with TWI. For now, I am only being cautious about my identity, lest they could also read here what I REALLY THINK. SUPRISED??? And please don't ask me why I am still there after over 30 years, despite what I have seen! You all can relate to that. Maybe I'm just a "die hard". Maybe I'm just too "blind" to see what really goes on there. Maybe I am just too damned "forgivng", or too damned "patient". I have my reasons, and this "topic" might just be my way OUT, but I must do this carefully.
I have been attempting over the years to inform TWI about this "wonderful discovery". I have, in one way or another been trying to introduce it to every FELLOWSHIP, BRANCH, LIMB AND REGION COORDINATOR since its beginning around 1988. (long time to hold such a "silly notion", huh??!!)
It seems that none have ever "really listened". Thinking carnally, I could suppose that early on I could blame myself for not explaining it properly because I had "jumped the gun" without more detailed proof as it was developing. As time went by (and with nobody to help, no assistance offered, no "study partner", etc) I still managed to continue learning more. And I thank God for that. But even then, it still seemed that I lacked "ammunition" each time I approached the next leader after I had patiently waited for his reassignment and a replacement to arrive. Truth is, I really cannot blame myself because that is just PLAIN WRONG TO DO!
Well then, I suppose I could blame THEM for not seeming to care about me, because the are just "too damned busy" with the "work of the ministry"...weddings to plan, meetings and functions to put together, classes to run, other people's personal problems to attend to...especially among the "new grads", etc etc. Could I really blame them for not having enough "time" for me? I tried not to bug them much at all, or let them know how frustrated I was becoming over this.
I would simply approach one of them with a "little tidbit" of information, hoping they might become interested enough to ask more about it. That way, I wouldn't have to take up a lot of their time, and they could spend it rather on the many other things "on their plates" (which are pretty darned full already). Maybe I'm just too kind to them by allowing myself to continually stand in the "back of the line", choosing rather to suffer a bit while other people are taken care of.
But I'm afraid that these little bits of information were truly not given with much foundation under them (which they could have had for the asking), and somehow each time it seems that the "jury was in to render its decision" even before I arrived to discuss any more abou it. (they judged the matter before they got much evidence at all!)
Well, I cannot REALLY blame them any more than I can blame myself, now can I? To do that would be judging them, and acting as though they really didn't care at all! If I KNEW for SURE that this unbelief was "apeitheia" (know but don't care), I could leave them in a moment! But as long as I don't know that then it is safer to assume the unbelief is "apistia" (just don't know enough). And that is what keeps me "hanging on".
The true blame is not on people anyways, as we know, because we have an adversary. The best I could figure in order to "keep the peace" was to suppose that the time was not right for this in God's eyes...that it was ahead of its time.
So I waited...and waited.
I discovered a couple of things about it that actually contradicted what had been taught on that subject for over 50 years, and knew then that it was time to let them know, just to improve our understanding on the subject.
To make a long story short, it seems now that they do not care. I have it locked in so tight, that it just cannot be successfully refuted any longer. I have almost tried "forcing the issue", but now that borders on my "appearing evil", and I cannot afford to appear loud and angry, impatient, proud, and a host of other things which could easily enter in. Then I would be considered a fool for sure...and I cannot let that happen, for it would be my fault for starting it by going in that direction in the first place.
I am almost to the point of supposing that just as Jesus went to his own and was rejected, and said "Lo, I turn to the Gentiles", then I too, having something to say to those who I suppose should love me and who reject it as well, that "Lo, I turn to the Gentiles", meaning that I will take this elsewhere.
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I came to this site searching for help from many of those who I suppose still care for IT IS WRITTEN, just as much as those still within TWI "say" they do. If you continue to scoff at me, or ridicule, or tell me I am crazy about all this, or proud, or any such other thing before you even dare to check it out, then you are no better than them - perhaps worse, for that is only like rubbing salt in the wound, reminding me of all the suffering I have endured of them because of their lack of care for me in this matter over the years, for I have been through many such a thing during the course of this "investigation". Though I still manage to forgive them (supposing they know not what they do), I still hurt night after night wanting them to have it, and to change a bit of doctrine that they might see a wonderful gem as a result of a coupld of simple changes.
DO YOU SUPPOSE THEY STILL DESERVE IT FIRST (if there is anything to it at all)?
Or do you suppose I should try the same things here very long if I continue to get the same
uncaring responses I did from them?
Or do you suppose I might just leave this wonderful site which appeared from "nowhere" as a haven to rest a bit "from the fight", and just try and publish my work out in the WORLD instead?
What do you all suggest I do?
I love you. I believe you mean well. I just need some "true friends" again.
Mel
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bliss
Wow, that was a lot of info there Spectrum....Welcome to Greasespot!
I started this thread so long ago, I had to refresh my memory.
Let me just say, that there are some of us, who have since leaving the Way, continued to allow the Holy Spirit to teach us and appreciate the scriptures very much ...
actually being better students of the bible then we ever were while IN>
Having said that, they are some that want nothing to do with the bible or even God for that matter. That is their choice. No matter.
Most of us believe that Weirwille built his research on sand, and plagerism. I do not believe a thing that ministry has said anymore, because it's foundations are entrenched with lies and deceit.
What brings us together here, is the commonality of having The Way in our past (or present) and relating to eachother on that level.
Don't be afraid to post or start a new thread on the topic you are passionate about.
Debate is good.
While in the Way, it was their way or the highway, right?
So, enjoy the discussions, and disagreements ......(as long as they are not attacks). Nobody wants to be attacked for their beliefs, although it does happen.
Try not to take it personally.
We are all sinful creatures, and we all make mistakes. NO matter what side of the belief coin you're on.
But, as soon as you tell others that YOU HAVE IT ALL FIGURED OUT, red flags go up! That is WAY SPEAK. Pharasee speak, Elitism speak......
So, present your case, but also be willing to have a teachable spirit and listen to the others point of view (or research)...
You just might learn something. As well as we might learn from you.
And by the way..................... I personally don't believe in ''dispensations'' anymore. Through lots of prayer and research.
That doensn't mean I can't learn something from what you discovered. :)
peace
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RachelYsrael
What a beautiful response. I haven't figured it all out yet, Mel...But I understand what you are saying - I am experiencing the same thing around here. But I think we come here because this is our familiar. You would be suprised though at how people have changed.
And as to you still being "In"...It's your call. Stay or go. No guilt about either decision. Go Big or Go Home.
Rachel
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George Aar
Well, the REAL truth is,
Religion is bull....,
Yours, mine, theirs, ours - all of it - is simply superstitious nonsense. You have no irrefutable objective proof of any of the nonsense you propound so adamantly. So maybe don't be quite to quick in your relegating of everyone else in the history of the world off to hell, huh?
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RachelYsrael
You seem SO bitter. Sad.
But, I think that's why it's called faith, George.
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
For by it the elders obtained a good report.
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Rachel
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GarthP2000
This guy is a riot!
((snif))I don't think we need to ask; it's kinda obvious as to why. <_<
Really? ... Relate to being in TWI for over 30 years? ... And still staying? Well, maybe a few can (who shall remain nameless ;) ), but I'd be willing to bet that most here cannot.Look chief, you ought to consider that the rhetoric is the *least* of things that hurt you or anyone else. I mean, c'mon! Which is worse in your opinion?
1) Reading some mockery of a ministry that has let just about all of us here down in so many damn ways? Or, ...
2) Being the first hand victim/target/survivor of said sucky ministry in so many damn ways? You tell us!
So when you come here to Greasespot, allow me to tell you what GS is not; a overly-polite garden party where we all 'have our minds renewed to the Word' (Wierwille's, yours, or anyone else's). No, what this is is an open society of posters, an encouraging sign for people to just be themselves and allow others to be themselves. ... A society that was frowned on by The Way International, Wierwille, Martindale, and their crowd of losers.
So welcome to reality, and accept it for what it is.
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RachelYsrael
I kinda pegged Spectrum for a chicka...
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George Aar
That's always the canard that's raised isn't it?
Nope, sorry, not bitter. Not terrribly sad either. Just willing to succumb to the obvious, that's all.
That, and maybe a touch of impatience with the smug, self-righteousness that is so often the hallmark of the deluded.
And why is it that Christian faith = good,
"Other" religious faith = bad?
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RachelYsrael
I agree with you about the smug, self-righteousness that is the hallmark of the deluded. It can be very trying at times.
I ask the same question about other religious faith = bad... Especially when the other faith is not the "right" kind of christian faith. That's a double-whammy.
As to that proof I don't have, may I say you can neither prove that it is NOT true. And I have never relegated anyone, living or dead to hell. That is HIS job.
"To believe your own thought, to believe that what is true for you in your private heart is true for all men-that is genius."
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
I Remain,
RachelYsrael
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George Aar
Yeah, I've always had this trouble, you know, proving a negative and all.
But if that works for you...
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spectrum49
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Thank you so much for your objectivitity Rachael - and most especially for seeing the "good" in me. I mean no harm.
While is is true that I believe I really DO have something worthwhile to those who love to see how the scriptures fit together (without contradiction), I do not claim to be some sort of GURU with "all the answers" either!
Truth is, what I do have is rather "vast" - that is, it could take quite some time for someone to see what I have found - and I am sure that even what I have discovered about the "topic" thus far is merely "scratching the surface". I believe that it will be presented in such an orderly and logical fashion that anyone with a little common sense, and a respect for God (as being a most excellent author!) could see the point very clearly with a little patience.
However, to try and start a new post about it would surely start a rather large controversy, I am sure! I suspect that "inumerable tangents" would arise and before long the entire "concept" would seem so ridiculous that even fair-minded and objective readers would "just get lost in the shuffle" of it.
Even now, already things I have said are being taken out of context and twisted by those who do not care. (and I have yet to really present ANYTHING AUTHORITATIVE AT ALL ABOUT "my topic" TO THIS POINT!!!)
I would love to try and be kind to any of those who seem to ridicule without cause (supposing that they really did'nt mean to be that way), but more and more of them would take their place, and I would soon run out of time even trying to "catalog" just who is truly listening that they still have a chance to continue investigating for themselves, and see what I see.
What a confusing mess! To me it would be like trying to juggle a hundred objects at the same time!
Let it suffice at this...I am willing to share what I have for an individual or two to start with, and see what they think of it. Then perhaps I might have the courage to pursue it on a larger basis, being convinced that even some can indeed see it the way I would present it, and I am no longer "alone" with it.
Perhaps I have missed the mark and I have really nothing at all! That will be discovered in time sure enough, for I am sure there are many around here who know a whole lot more about the Bible than me. And in that event, I could just drop the whole thing if it can be sucessfully refuted in an honest and fair debate!
At least in that case, I will not have made a complete fool of myself in front of THOUSANDS, but just a couple, in the event that I am truly mistaken.
It is wrong to just try and force feed people. According to a certain verse, "they that hunger and thirst after righeousness" (basically the right way to do things) "shall be FILLED". And the word FILLED is "filled according to appetite".
How am I to know who is hungry for what I have to give - and to what extent? Why should I take the chance of trying to force a 7-course banquet down someone's throat who is merely only looking for a snack, or just a nice lunch or dinner? I will tell you how --- All I do is simply ASK:
Who thinks they are hungry enough for this "feast"?
I THINK THAT IS FAIR ENOUGH....The rest shall have to wait.
I Love Your Kind and Understanding Heart, Rachael!
I have decided to GO BIG! If it does not work, then I shall GO HOME, just like you suggested!
HA! HA!
Spectrum49 - aka - mystery (Mr. E.)
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Belle
Sweetheart, this is a discussion forum and there will be people who agree with you and there will be people who disagree with you. There will be people who are nice and there will be people who are not nice. How you handle those people is up to you. :)
We do not know you, so how can you look like a fool? Why would you look like a fool? Just because you took the initiative to research, think and put together something on your own? That's not foolish at all. :) Your conclusions may be wrong according to some points of view, but that's not foolish either - it is what it is.
Maybe it is your presentation that has started you off on the wrong foot and not what you have to share.
Also, it is considered "teasing" in my book to say you have some great information and then ask who is interested like you're wanting us to salivate like Pavlov's dogs all over some wonderful information some stranger is dangling in front of us. I don't beg. You want to share and discuss what's burning inside of you? Great! Please do! I love a good discussion. But, know that I, personally, am never going to beg you to share what you seem to think you know and I am not promising to agree with it - especially if it agrees with anything we learned in TWI.
Oakspear and I both taught contrary to TWI doctrine in fellowship before we left - some got it, most did not. Mostly, in my opinion is because people in TWI are brain-dead - they don't care anymore - they are apathethic and just go through the motions. They wouldn't know something exciting if it hit them upside the head.You can not reason with die-hard TWIts - they do not think, reason, deduce or even consider things the same way one does without TWI blinders on. It is not your fault, it is the audience is not ready, willing or able to come to any conclusion other than what TWI tells them. I seriously doubt it is your lack of "ammunition" that is the problem, but rather the audience. That, I deduce based on my own experiences trying to do the same.
Well, you have a point there - TWI leaders do not care about people - they care about numbers, money and position. If you rock the boat, you might jeopardize their position, income or lifestyle and well, we can't have that going on in TWI, now can we?
How about starting a thread on this fascinating research that you've done. There are some really genius folks here who will help you work through it and help you see where you're right, wrong, on the right track but just not there, etc.... I am not one of those geniuses. That's why I come to the Doctrinal Dungeon with my questions.
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brideofjc
Feel free to post your topic. We will all read it, or at least most will...but don't be hurt by the responses you read either.
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anotherDan
OK, I volunteer. Send me whatever you like via email and I'll take a look at it. I think the dispensationalism of the Way was quite in error. I haven't had real contact with any "innies" in a long time, though I've stayed in touch with a number of folks who might as well have stayed in! Looking forward to hearing from you.
danhaasathomeATyahoo.com ( replace only the second "AT" with the ampersand ----> @ )
By all means, post your info in doctrinal here (if you dare!) .... Bliss and Belle have given you good advice!
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