As to the first, I'd say it's clear a spirit CAN feel emotions.
That's why satan rebelled in the first place-he felt the sin of PRIDE.
Ezekiel 28:16-17. (NKJV)
"By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
17 “ Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you."
That means that spirits can either feel all sorts of emotions,
or only pride (or only negative emotions like pride.)
I reject the second possibility as ridiculous, pending a specific case for it.
I'd say angels of every type can feel all sorts of emotions.
=======
B) I'd say God feels DIFFERENTLY than we do, but He feels emotions nevertheless.
I have great difficulty imagining a God that would go through lengthy plans for the
salvation of so many even to this day, who feels no emotions about them whatsoever.
Ephesians 2:4-5 (NKJV)
"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),"
I John 4:7-11.
"7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another."
I John 4:16.
"16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him."
Seems pretty clear to me.
And if someone has some intellectual or linguistic contortion that robs those verses of their plain
meanings, that's their business. Me, I think this is remarkably simple- unless you've been taught
wrong in the past and are trying to overcome wrong teaching, practical error and doctrinal error.
Without that emotion where would we be? I know that we are supposed to say that that is a figure of speech - but says who? We were taught that spirit had no emotions but suppose they were wrong?
In any case, God made man and woman, emotions and all - and said, "It is very good." So no matter what God feels - He wanted US to feel. He progammed feeling in us.
maybe I'm answering two threads here at the same time......sorry
I read this modern-day parable some time ago, and-although some might think it is completely unrelated
to this thread, I think it illustrates the point in a different fashion.
I'll mark the relevant line/lines.
====================
A wealthy man and his son loved to collect rare works of art. They had everything in their collection, from Picasso to Raphael. They would often sit together and admire the great works of art. When Desert Storm broke out, the son went to war with his Reserve unit. He was very courageous and died in battle while rescuing another soldier. The father was notified and grieved deeply for his only son.
About a month later, just before Christmas, there was a knock at the door. A young man stood at the door with a large package in his hands. He said, "Sir, you don't know me, but I am the soldier for whom your son gave his life. He saved many lives that day, and he was carrying me to safety when a bullet struck him in the heart and he died instantly. He often talked about you, and your love for art.
The young man held out his package. "I know this isn't much. I'm not really a great artist, but I think your son would have wanted you to have this."
The father opened the package. It was a portrait of his son, painted by the young man. He stared in awe at the way the soldier had captured the personality of his son in the painting. The father was so drawn to the eyes that his own eyes welled up with tears. He thanked the young man and offered to pay him for the picture.
"Oh, no sir. I could never repay what your son did for me. It's a gift."
The father hung the portrait over his mantle. Every time visitors came to his home he took them to see the portrait of his son before he showed them any of the other great works he had collected.
The man died a few years later. There was to be a great auction of his paintings. Many influential people gathered, excited over seeing the great paintings and having an opportunity to purchase one for their collection. On the platform sat the painting of the son.
The auctioneer pounded his gavel. "We will start the bidding with this picture of the son. Who will bid for this picture?"
There was silence. Then a voice in the back of the room shouted, "We want to see the famous paintings! Skip this one!"
But the auctioneer persisted. "Will someone bid for this painting? Who will start the bidding? $100, $200?"
Another voice shouted angrily, "We didn't come to see this painting! We came to see the Van Gogh's, the Rembrandt's! Get on with the real bids!"
But still the auctioneer continued. "The son! The son! Who'll take the son?"
Finally, a voice came from the very back of the room. It was the longtime gardener of the man and his son. "I'll give $50 for the painting." Being a poor gardener, it was all he could afford.
"We have $50, who will bid $60?"
"Give it to him for $50! Let's see the masters!"
"$50 is the bid, won't someone bid $60?"
The crowd was becoming angry. They didn't want the picture of the son. They wanted the more worthy investments for their collections.
The auctioneer pounded the gavel. "Going once, twice, SOLD for $50!"
A man sitting in the second row shouted, "Now, let's get on with the collection!"
The auctioneer laid down his gavel. "I'm sorry, the auction is over."
"What about the paintings?"
"I am sorry. When I was called to conduct this auction, I was told of a secret stipulation in the will. I was not allowed to reveal that stipulation until this time. Only the painting of the son would be auctioned. Whoever bought that painting would inherit the entire estate, including the paintings.
The man who took the son gets every thing!"
God gave His son 2,000 years ago to die on a cruel cross. Much like the auctioneer, His message today is, "The son, the son, who'll take the son?" Because, you see, whoever takes the Son gets everything.
VPW's teachings on this subject were ambiguous at best. On one hand he taught that GOD's emotions were a figure of speech and even sighted the figure he was referring to. On the other hand, he smugly criticized those who referred to GOD as a "supreme being" because he said it negated GOD's love. Your question,though, was not about what was taught in TWI but rather about GOD's emotions. Trinitarian doctrine would seem to imply"yes" since Jesus Christ as GOD is a basic tenet and he had emotions. Nontrinitarian doctrine opens a discussion that may have no end in sight.I like to think JOHN 3:16 holds the essence and that as you stated, it may be one of those concepts that are beyond our understanding.(Much like the concept of eternity)
Do we have emotions? What are they? I hear a really loud thunderclap. Adrenalin floods through my system. My heart pounds. Electrical charges jolt along my nerve pathways. My body jerks. I call it fear. My dog licks my face, & I have a different set of hormonal, chemical, electric, system changes, & I call it something else.
It's all a bunch of physical responses, nothing more. Does that make it any less real? No.
Does God have emotions? If we accept that emotions attributed to God are a figure of speech, does that make it any less real? I say no. Figures of speech are truer to truth than the literal truth would be. His love is more truly loving than mine is. So what if he doesn't have oxytocin flowing through His system?
Perhaps our emotions are mere shadows of God's realities.
Yeah, Bagpipes – I sometimes think along the lines of "wonder what the Creator is like? Just look at His creation." Also, another thought I sometimes get when admiring a work of art – or really anything done with a high level of proficiency – I'm taken by the person's mastery of the subject. So – in other words "emotions? God thought 'em up!" Like Doojable was saying – God programmed this feature into our make-up…Tom, that's a pretty heavy statement "Perhaps our emotions are mere shadows of God's realities" – I like that – gonna have to think about that one awhile.
Allan – you got me thinking about God's level of emotional intensity – and purity - compared to ours as fallen creatures. I think sometimes our emotions can get - - mmmm I dunno mixed up with other "stuff" – not saying emotions are wrong – but due to our sinful nature they can work up into a big complicated convoluted mess – where we're no longer experiencing emotions the way God intended. Like Ephesians 4:26 says, "Be angry, and yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger" – in other words quickly handle the matter that's got you angry – instead of letting it build up into something sinful like resentment, hatred, etc.
WordWolf – you have pointed out a very simple and yet profound and beautiful aspect of our God's benevolence – the driving force behind it is love!…The word emotion comes from a Latin word emovere, which translates as to move, to excite, to stir up or to agitate. Love is what moved God to send His Son to our rescue. Oh – loved that cool parable, too!
When we toss out the emotions of God - what do we really have left?
If God doesn't get angry or hurt or disappointed - then doesn't that make it a bit easier to take a nonchalant attitude towards sin? Afterall, each and everyone of us start out as kids who want to please our parents and not anger, hurt or disappoint them.
If God doesn't have emotions doesn't it become easier to dismiss someone else's feelings? Afterall, aren't we supposed to be followers of God and His son?
Seems easier to be wrong if there are no real boundaries. If God has no true emotions then we can feel a little less guilty hurting someone.
A subtle manipulation. To embrace God we have to embrace how He made us and how He relates to us. As WordWolf pointed out, we have to embrace the Son - because that is how God displayed so much of His emotions towards humanity. - HUMANITY! With all of its flaws, all of the in-fighting, all of the troubles and tribulations. HE LOVES US!
gee, I never realized how strongly I feel on this subject.......
Just last month my "innie'' relative and I discussed this very thing. I was singing this song, Angels Wish and how it so moved me (emotionally). She piped up with ''God doesn't cry, he's spirit". uuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhgggggggggg :blink:
I got annoyed to say the least.
Thanks for bringing it up. It will help me to help her, hopefully.
Here's the beautiful words......... I wish you could hear it in the original
Steven Curtis Chapman \ Angels Wish
Was God smiling when He spoke the word and made the world?
And did He cry about the flood?
What does God's voice sound like when He sings, when He's angry?
These are just a few things that the angels have on me
Well, I can't fly at least not yet
I've got no halo on my head
And I can't even start to picture heaven's beauty
But I've been shown the Savior's love
The Grace of God has raised me up
To show me things the angels long to look into
And I know things the Angels only wish they knew
I have seen the dark and desperate place where sin will take you
I've felt loneliness and shame
And I have watched the blinding light of grace
Come breaking through with a sweetness only tasted
I think we all know why twi taught that God didn't have emotions. It was because it supports the idiom of permission teaching. So how do you now deal with that?
Shadows of God's realities...
God so loved the world...
Love 1000x...
Why are you only discussing the lovey dovey side?
What about God's wrath, God's anger, envy, and jealousy? Are ours mear shadows of his? Does he not "feel" those at all? Which is it?
I don't see only the lovey-dovey side being discussed.
God does get angry - if we believe that, we ask ourselves (or look in the Bible to see) what angers Him. THEN - we should avoid those things that anger God.
Now, OTOH, if you don't really believe that God can get angry, disappointed, peeved, ticked off, etc - then why bother? - After all, in this culture we use the phrase, "figure of Speech" to refer to an exagerration.
So even tho the point of a figure of speech was to emphasize a reality and make it bigger than life, if you start saying. "Welll..... God doesn't really love, hate, get angry, cry - and so on - its only a figure of speech," then you have the makings of a good excuse and a license to do wrong.
"the vital force of each thing, from which comes its personality, its sense of pain and pleasure, its growth and life -- that itself is G-d. Not that this is all of G-d. It is less than a glimmer of G-d, because He is entirely beyond all such descriptions. But that life force is G-d as He is found within each creature He has
Thanks for these meaty responses, all of them are thought provoking. I guess I'm endeavoring to come to terms with/understand stuff I suppressed to accomodate TWI "accuracy." Why do I even pose the question? Is it for the tickling of my ears? Is it to better understand my relationship with God and His relationship with His creation? I hope it is to better understand the relationship.
I've thought about the question for months. Reading Hebrews the past few weeks I decided that whether or not GOD feels, I KNOW Jesus Christ felt and feels. Therefore whatever God is, He understands and must in one sense FEEL these things too. Perhaps the usage of emotions applied to God is literal and figurative? Literal in that His emotions are on a different plane than we can comprehend. Figurative in that it is a way he can relate to us on our plane of existance. (If that makes any sense at all.. :blink:.)
Wordwolf, I love that modern day parable. You sure do a good job at arousing my tears....time and time again....with your responses. That ain't a bad thing...btw. :)
I think emotions are more than physical responses. Yes there are physical responses and I am very aware regarding the knowledge of the "molecules of emotions." I don't think science will ever discover/uncover all that lies within the realm of soul.
Our emotions as "shadows of God's realities". Wow, way cool. I recently read somewhere (if I find the quote I'll post it), that our emotions are like the negatives (in photography) of God's emtional make up.
From the book Cry of the Soul. The authors list 4 core convictions that structure their approach to the book. I'm only listing #4 with a few quotes. (The bold is mine for emphasis.)
"(4) All emotions, including the darker ones, give us a glimpse of the character of God."
This is the heart of this book. Far more important than the way in which emotions reveal the movement of the heart is the way in which our most dificult emotions -- anger, fear, jealousy, despair, contempt, and shame -- uniquely reveal something about the heart of God. Our positive emotions, of course --joy, peace, pleasure, and others -- have equal potential to teach us about the nature of God. But the darker struggles with emotion can point us to priceless glimpses of God's character through scriptural revelation of God's own emotions.....
.....(God) reveals His heart through the multifaceted images in His Word that draw from our life experience.....
...Why such an apparently negative focus in this book on anger, fear, jealousy, despair, contempt, and shame? In part, it is an attempt to show these emotions as far more positive and necessary to life than we normally assume. But even more important, it is an effort to open our vision to perceive the unusual heart of God. God feels anger, fear, jealousy, despair, contempt, and shame-- and all these emotions reveal something about His character. Most gloriously, each one points to the scandalous wonder of the Cross."
end of excerpt
When I first read this last paragraph my TWI brain sounded off alarms...big time. Now, my hopefully new and improved brain, is considering this aspect of God's nature....in light of godly fear, godly jealousy, godly despair, godly contempt, and godly shame. Just chewing here...chewing. Stepping out into what before would have been "forbidden" territory.
God HAS to have a sense of humor. That's emotions, right, although clearly not presented by me in the same fashion as the others mentioned here.
For me in my private relationship with God, were it not for him surely doing this often and this alot of the time I don't think I'd ever get to this :)
LOL Shell. Anyone with children can recognize God's sense of humor. Otherwise, why would He have given children twice the energy that their parents have????
"Yeah" to what Shellon and Abigail said on God having a sense of humor! And Kit – that's a pretty cool thing to say about figures of speech not being a throwaway word but actually gives emphasis!
Bagpipes quoting from Cry of the Soul:
"(4) All emotions, including the darker ones, give us a glimpse of the character of God."
This is the heart of this book. Far more important than the way in which emotions reveal the movement of the heart is the way in which our most dificult emotions -- anger, fear, jealousy, despair, contempt, and shame -- uniquely reveal something about the heart of God. Our positive emotions, of course --joy, peace, pleasure, and others -- have equal potential to teach us about the nature of God. But the darker struggles with emotion can point us to priceless glimpses of God's character through scriptural revelation of God's own emotions.....
.....(God) reveals His heart through the multifaceted images in His Word that draw from our life experience.....
...Why such an apparently negative focus in this book on anger, fear, jealousy, despair, contempt, and shame? In part, it is an attempt to show these emotions as far more positive and necessary to life than we normally assume. But even more important, it is an effort to open our vision to perceive the unusual heart of God. God feels anger, fear, jealousy, despair, contempt, and shame-- and all these emotions reveal something about His character. Most gloriously, each one points to the scandalous wonder of theCross."
Bagpipes, I really like that stuff from Cry of the Soul - - thanks! Exciting for someone like me exploring the emotional aspect of life after TWI!!!! Our emotions giving us a glimpse of our Creator!!!! I found something that I hope will complement this thread – it's from Evangelical Dictionary of Theology edited by Walter A. Elwell, Emotion, pages 352, 353:
"…Yet discovering God's affirmation of emotions does not answer our question about their intended role in personality. God makes us emotional creatures because he is emotional in nature and wished to create us like himself. But how are we to respond to our emotions? Can they be trusted as a guide for behavior?
An answer to these difficult questions must begin with the realization that our emotionality bears the mark of the fall…It would seem that any emotional expression has the potential of being either God-honoring or God-displeasing.
The response of some Christians to this realization has been to suppress emotional expression. They feel that while they may not be able to control the experience of the emotion, they certainly can control its expression. Rather than have their life complicated by deciding between appropriate and inappropriate expressions, they simplify matters by attempting top minimize emotional expression. However, such emotional suppression is not only the cause of many psychological problems, it should probably also be seen as a sinful response to emotion in that it violates God's intentions. Emotions were given in order to energize behavior and were intended by God to be a catalyst for action. Because of the fall they are imperfect guides to behavior, so we cannot simply 'do as we feel.' But we must pay attention to our feelings. Only when they are acknowledged can the appropriate response be made.
Christianity…gives man's emotional life a balanced place. In contrast to the Stoics, who viewed emotion as irrational, and the Epicureans, who acquiesced to the inevitability of emotions, Jesus realistically faced emotion in man's life and provided us with guidelines for emotional expression. Life gains an intensity and richness when emotions are used as valid means of relating to the world, other people, and to God…"
Emotions were given in order to energize behavior and were intended by God to be a catalyst for action
That's an interesting statement. This whole topic makes me think. Choices seem to be made based on basic emotional "feelings". When I'm hungry, I feel the need for food. But I could be offered something I didn't want to eat and had no desire for - desire being the emotion. Even though I'm hungry, I could choose not to eat that food. Or I could be offered something I didn't think was food, like a bar of something strange looking. Eventually if I didn't make any choices I'd be driven to eat something even if it wasn't what I desired, but I would never eat something I didn't think was food, regardless of how hungry I was. Once I was hungry enough my desire for anything to satisfy the hunger would (I guess) take over and I'd choose to eat anything, as long as I knew it was food.
This makes me think - how important it is to thoughtfully recognize, develop and consider my emotions. If they're what's telling me what choices to make I'm going to have them and live by them, one way or the other.
The whole concept of God being an entity, a "something", with thoughts, purpose and activity, means there would have to be emotions of some kind working - verses like "for it is God who works in me both to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure" ... the "pleasure" or satisfaction comes as a result of something done, and the desire to do it is what causes me to do it. I would think if there was a purpose to life and a future of amy kind ofr it there has to be emotion driving it, otherwise there would be no purpose to begin with. Even if the purpose was "let's see what happens and then we'll know', something - which could be considered an emotional preference - is causing that choice to be made. Why see what's going to happen, or why do anything, if there's no desire or anticipation to see the results?
The intensity of the Love is so great that it is wrath and fire and burning and rain and rain and raining of that great power from on high that is so overwhelming and overpowering that our souls are overwhelmed with it and we cannot speak.
The hate is more then any hatred that can be seen with the carnal eye.
It is Love, this hatred that takes you to the depths of hell and the heights of heaven.
There is no power greater then the Love that is in the Spirit.
The tears are great and many as the tears of Joy overcome it.
Compassion is mercy and grace, and grace and mercy is compassion.
T-Bone, I like what you added. I would also add, within the framework of the laws laid out in Judaism, are proper and healthy ways to express emotion. Are they necessarily the ONLY proper and healthy ways? I wouldn't go so far as to say that - but they do strike me as beautiful.
T-Bone, I like what you added. I would also add, within the framework of the laws laid out in Judaism, are proper and healthy ways to express emotion. Are they necessarily the ONLY proper and healthy ways? I wouldn't go so far as to say that - but they do strike me as beautiful.
Abigail, I assume you're referring to my quote from the Evangelical Dictionary "Christianity…gives man's emotional life a balanced place." The only reason I left that in there was because I thought it was closely knit with the thrust of the paragraph...I certainly didn't mean to cast any other belief system in a disparaging light...
...The Christian Faith is my viewpoint - as Judaism is yours - certainly an obvious fact - and to me an exciting one. As I expressed on another thread - exploring a topic from various viewpoints can be both a matter of debate and discovery - and I like it when it's more about discovery, as you know how I've been on some other doctrinal threads...
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allan w.
I've often thought that. Imagine feeling love like we do but magnified a thousand times !!
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WordWolf
Well, I think this is really 2 questions.
A) Can a spirit (angel or God) feel emotions?
B) Does God feel emotions?
As to the first, I'd say it's clear a spirit CAN feel emotions.
That's why satan rebelled in the first place-he felt the sin of PRIDE.
Ezekiel 28:16-17. (NKJV)
"By the abundance of your trading
You became filled with violence within,
And you sinned;
Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
Out of the mountain of God;
And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
From the midst of the fiery stones.
17 “ Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
I cast you to the ground,
I laid you before kings,
That they might gaze at you."
That means that spirits can either feel all sorts of emotions,
or only pride (or only negative emotions like pride.)
I reject the second possibility as ridiculous, pending a specific case for it.
I'd say angels of every type can feel all sorts of emotions.
=======
B) I'd say God feels DIFFERENTLY than we do, but He feels emotions nevertheless.
I have great difficulty imagining a God that would go through lengthy plans for the
salvation of so many even to this day, who feels no emotions about them whatsoever.
Ephesians 2:4-5 (NKJV)
"But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),"
I John 4:7-11.
"7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another."
I John 4:16.
"16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him."
Seems pretty clear to me.
And if someone has some intellectual or linguistic contortion that robs those verses of their plain
meanings, that's their business. Me, I think this is remarkably simple- unless you've been taught
wrong in the past and are trying to overcome wrong teaching, practical error and doctrinal error.
Then it can be VERY difficult.
That's how I see it, anyway.
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doojable
Hmmmm
"For God so LOVED the world..."
Without that emotion where would we be? I know that we are supposed to say that that is a figure of speech - but says who? We were taught that spirit had no emotions but suppose they were wrong?
In any case, God made man and woman, emotions and all - and said, "It is very good." So no matter what God feels - He wanted US to feel. He progammed feeling in us.
maybe I'm answering two threads here at the same time......sorry
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WordWolf
I read this modern-day parable some time ago, and-although some might think it is completely unrelated
to this thread, I think it illustrates the point in a different fashion.
I'll mark the relevant line/lines.
====================
A wealthy man and his son loved to collect rare works of art. They had everything in their collection, from Picasso to Raphael. They would often sit together and admire the great works of art. When Desert Storm broke out, the son went to war with his Reserve unit. He was very courageous and died in battle while rescuing another soldier. The father was notified and grieved deeply for his only son.
About a month later, just before Christmas, there was a knock at the door. A young man stood at the door with a large package in his hands. He said, "Sir, you don't know me, but I am the soldier for whom your son gave his life. He saved many lives that day, and he was carrying me to safety when a bullet struck him in the heart and he died instantly. He often talked about you, and your love for art.
The young man held out his package. "I know this isn't much. I'm not really a great artist, but I think your son would have wanted you to have this."
The father opened the package. It was a portrait of his son, painted by the young man. He stared in awe at the way the soldier had captured the personality of his son in the painting. The father was so drawn to the eyes that his own eyes welled up with tears. He thanked the young man and offered to pay him for the picture.
"Oh, no sir. I could never repay what your son did for me. It's a gift."
The father hung the portrait over his mantle. Every time visitors came to his home he took them to see the portrait of his son before he showed them any of the other great works he had collected.
The man died a few years later. There was to be a great auction of his paintings. Many influential people gathered, excited over seeing the great paintings and having an opportunity to purchase one for their collection. On the platform sat the painting of the son.
The auctioneer pounded his gavel. "We will start the bidding with this picture of the son. Who will bid for this picture?"
There was silence. Then a voice in the back of the room shouted, "We want to see the famous paintings! Skip this one!"
But the auctioneer persisted. "Will someone bid for this painting? Who will start the bidding? $100, $200?"
Another voice shouted angrily, "We didn't come to see this painting! We came to see the Van Gogh's, the Rembrandt's! Get on with the real bids!"
But still the auctioneer continued. "The son! The son! Who'll take the son?"
Finally, a voice came from the very back of the room. It was the longtime gardener of the man and his son. "I'll give $50 for the painting." Being a poor gardener, it was all he could afford.
"We have $50, who will bid $60?"
"Give it to him for $50! Let's see the masters!"
"$50 is the bid, won't someone bid $60?"
The crowd was becoming angry. They didn't want the picture of the son. They wanted the more worthy investments for their collections.
The auctioneer pounded the gavel. "Going once, twice, SOLD for $50!"
A man sitting in the second row shouted, "Now, let's get on with the collection!"
The auctioneer laid down his gavel. "I'm sorry, the auction is over."
"What about the paintings?"
"I am sorry. When I was called to conduct this auction, I was told of a secret stipulation in the will. I was not allowed to reveal that stipulation until this time. Only the painting of the son would be auctioned. Whoever bought that painting would inherit the entire estate, including the paintings.
The man who took the son gets every thing!"
God gave His son 2,000 years ago to die on a cruel cross. Much like the auctioneer, His message today is, "The son, the son, who'll take the son?" Because, you see, whoever takes the Son gets everything.
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waysider
VPW's teachings on this subject were ambiguous at best. On one hand he taught that GOD's emotions were a figure of speech and even sighted the figure he was referring to. On the other hand, he smugly criticized those who referred to GOD as a "supreme being" because he said it negated GOD's love. Your question,though, was not about what was taught in TWI but rather about GOD's emotions. Trinitarian doctrine would seem to imply"yes" since Jesus Christ as GOD is a basic tenet and he had emotions. Nontrinitarian doctrine opens a discussion that may have no end in sight.I like to think JOHN 3:16 holds the essence and that as you stated, it may be one of those concepts that are beyond our understanding.(Much like the concept of eternity)
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Tom
Do we have emotions? What are they? I hear a really loud thunderclap. Adrenalin floods through my system. My heart pounds. Electrical charges jolt along my nerve pathways. My body jerks. I call it fear. My dog licks my face, & I have a different set of hormonal, chemical, electric, system changes, & I call it something else.
It's all a bunch of physical responses, nothing more. Does that make it any less real? No.
Does God have emotions? If we accept that emotions attributed to God are a figure of speech, does that make it any less real? I say no. Figures of speech are truer to truth than the literal truth would be. His love is more truly loving than mine is. So what if he doesn't have oxytocin flowing through His system?
Perhaps our emotions are mere shadows of God's realities.
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T-Bone
Yeah, Bagpipes – I sometimes think along the lines of "wonder what the Creator is like? Just look at His creation." Also, another thought I sometimes get when admiring a work of art – or really anything done with a high level of proficiency – I'm taken by the person's mastery of the subject. So – in other words "emotions? God thought 'em up!" Like Doojable was saying – God programmed this feature into our make-up…Tom, that's a pretty heavy statement "Perhaps our emotions are mere shadows of God's realities" – I like that – gonna have to think about that one awhile.
Allan – you got me thinking about God's level of emotional intensity – and purity - compared to ours as fallen creatures. I think sometimes our emotions can get - - mmmm I dunno mixed up with other "stuff" – not saying emotions are wrong – but due to our sinful nature they can work up into a big complicated convoluted mess – where we're no longer experiencing emotions the way God intended. Like Ephesians 4:26 says, "Be angry, and yet do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger" – in other words quickly handle the matter that's got you angry – instead of letting it build up into something sinful like resentment, hatred, etc.
WordWolf – you have pointed out a very simple and yet profound and beautiful aspect of our God's benevolence – the driving force behind it is love!…The word emotion comes from a Latin word emovere, which translates as to move, to excite, to stir up or to agitate. Love is what moved God to send His Son to our rescue. Oh – loved that cool parable, too!
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doojable
When we toss out the emotions of God - what do we really have left?
If God doesn't get angry or hurt or disappointed - then doesn't that make it a bit easier to take a nonchalant attitude towards sin? Afterall, each and everyone of us start out as kids who want to please our parents and not anger, hurt or disappoint them.
If God doesn't have emotions doesn't it become easier to dismiss someone else's feelings? Afterall, aren't we supposed to be followers of God and His son?
Seems easier to be wrong if there are no real boundaries. If God has no true emotions then we can feel a little less guilty hurting someone.
A subtle manipulation. To embrace God we have to embrace how He made us and how He relates to us. As WordWolf pointed out, we have to embrace the Son - because that is how God displayed so much of His emotions towards humanity. - HUMANITY! With all of its flaws, all of the in-fighting, all of the troubles and tribulations. HE LOVES US!
gee, I never realized how strongly I feel on this subject.......
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bliss
Just last month my "innie'' relative and I discussed this very thing. I was singing this song, Angels Wish and how it so moved me (emotionally). She piped up with ''God doesn't cry, he's spirit". uuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhgggggggggg :blink:
I got annoyed to say the least.
Thanks for bringing it up. It will help me to help her, hopefully.
Here's the beautiful words......... I wish you could hear it in the original
Steven Curtis Chapman \ Angels Wish
Was God smiling when He spoke the word and made the world?
And did He cry about the flood?
What does God's voice sound like when He sings, when He's angry?
These are just a few things that the angels have on me
Well, I can't fly at least not yet
I've got no halo on my head
And I can't even start to picture heaven's beauty
But I've been shown the Savior's love
The Grace of God has raised me up
To show me things the angels long to look into
And I know things the Angels only wish they knew
I have seen the dark and desperate place where sin will take you
I've felt loneliness and shame
And I have watched the blinding light of grace
Come breaking through with a sweetness only tasted
By the forgiven and redeemed
And someday I'll sit down with my angel friends
Up in heaven
And they'll tell me about Creation
And I'll tell them a story of Grace
Well, I can't fly at least not yet
I've got no halo on my head
And I can't even start to picture heaven's beauty
But I've been shown a Savior's love
The Grace of God has raised me up
To show me things the angels long to look into
And I know things the Angels only wish they knew
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lindyhopper
I think we all know why twi taught that God didn't have emotions. It was because it supports the idiom of permission teaching. So how do you now deal with that?
Shadows of God's realities...
God so loved the world...
Love 1000x...
Why are you only discussing the lovey dovey side?
What about God's wrath, God's anger, envy, and jealousy? Are ours mear shadows of his? Does he not "feel" those at all? Which is it?
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doojable
I don't see only the lovey-dovey side being discussed.
God does get angry - if we believe that, we ask ourselves (or look in the Bible to see) what angers Him. THEN - we should avoid those things that anger God.
Now, OTOH, if you don't really believe that God can get angry, disappointed, peeved, ticked off, etc - then why bother? - After all, in this culture we use the phrase, "figure of Speech" to refer to an exagerration.
So even tho the point of a figure of speech was to emphasize a reality and make it bigger than life, if you start saying. "Welll..... God doesn't really love, hate, get angry, cry - and so on - its only a figure of speech," then you have the makings of a good excuse and a license to do wrong.
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Abigail
I thought this might be fitting for this thread:
"the vital force of each thing, from which comes its personality, its sense of pain and pleasure, its growth and life -- that itself is G-d. Not that this is all of G-d. It is less than a glimmer of G-d, because He is entirely beyond all such descriptions. But that life force is G-d as He is found within each creature He has
made."
- A Daily Dose of Wisdom from the Rebbe
-words and condensation by Tzvi Freeman
Menachem Av 28, 5766 * August 22, 2006
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WordWolf
Interesting point.
We're asking if God has "emotions" without checking that all of us have
ONE definition of "emotions."
Nice one.
I've held a position along this line for some time.
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doojable
There was a statement made while I was in the 11th corps
God's ideas are man's ideals.
seems related to this subject so I'm throwing it out there.
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I Love Bagpipes
Thanks for these meaty responses, all of them are thought provoking. I guess I'm endeavoring to come to terms with/understand stuff I suppressed to accomodate TWI "accuracy." Why do I even pose the question? Is it for the tickling of my ears? Is it to better understand my relationship with God and His relationship with His creation? I hope it is to better understand the relationship.
I've thought about the question for months. Reading Hebrews the past few weeks I decided that whether or not GOD feels, I KNOW Jesus Christ felt and feels. Therefore whatever God is, He understands and must in one sense FEEL these things too. Perhaps the usage of emotions applied to God is literal and figurative? Literal in that His emotions are on a different plane than we can comprehend. Figurative in that it is a way he can relate to us on our plane of existance. (If that makes any sense at all.. :blink:.)
Wordwolf, I love that modern day parable. You sure do a good job at arousing my tears....time and time again....with your responses. That ain't a bad thing...btw. :)
I think emotions are more than physical responses. Yes there are physical responses and I am very aware regarding the knowledge of the "molecules of emotions." I don't think science will ever discover/uncover all that lies within the realm of soul.
Our emotions as "shadows of God's realities". Wow, way cool. I recently read somewhere (if I find the quote I'll post it), that our emotions are like the negatives (in photography) of God's emtional make up.
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I Love Bagpipes
From the book Cry of the Soul. The authors list 4 core convictions that structure their approach to the book. I'm only listing #4 with a few quotes. (The bold is mine for emphasis.)
"(4) All emotions, including the darker ones, give us a glimpse of the character of God."
This is the heart of this book. Far more important than the way in which emotions reveal the movement of the heart is the way in which our most dificult emotions -- anger, fear, jealousy, despair, contempt, and shame -- uniquely reveal something about the heart of God. Our positive emotions, of course --joy, peace, pleasure, and others -- have equal potential to teach us about the nature of God. But the darker struggles with emotion can point us to priceless glimpses of God's character through scriptural revelation of God's own emotions.....
.....(God) reveals His heart through the multifaceted images in His Word that draw from our life experience.....
...Why such an apparently negative focus in this book on anger, fear, jealousy, despair, contempt, and shame? In part, it is an attempt to show these emotions as far more positive and necessary to life than we normally assume. But even more important, it is an effort to open our vision to perceive the unusual heart of God. God feels anger, fear, jealousy, despair, contempt, and shame-- and all these emotions reveal something about His character. Most gloriously, each one points to the scandalous wonder of the Cross."
end of excerpt
When I first read this last paragraph my TWI brain sounded off alarms...big time. Now, my hopefully new and improved brain, is considering this aspect of God's nature....in light of godly fear, godly jealousy, godly despair, godly contempt, and godly shame. Just chewing here...chewing. Stepping out into what before would have been "forbidden" territory.
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Shellon
God HAS to have a sense of humor. That's emotions, right, although clearly not presented by me in the same fashion as the others mentioned here.
For me in my private relationship with God, were it not for him surely doing this
often and this alot of the time 
I don't think I'd ever get to this :)
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Abigail
LOL Shell. Anyone with children can recognize God's sense of humor. Otherwise, why would He have given children twice the energy that their parents have????
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Kit Sober
"Figure of speech" is not a throwaway word, but an emphasis. Duh!
God's emotions are more than ours because He is more alive than us.
He feels more than us. He knows the full impact of our efforts to live with Him as well as the full impact of our shortcomings.
It's my opinion that the hardhearted response, "God doesn't cry He's spirit," probably caused a rain of tears as He wept.
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T-Bone
"Yeah" to what Shellon and Abigail said on God having a sense of humor! And Kit – that's a pretty cool thing to say about figures of speech not being a throwaway word but actually gives emphasis!
Bagpipes, I really like that stuff from Cry of the Soul - - thanks! Exciting for someone like me exploring the emotional aspect of life after TWI!!!! Our emotions giving us a glimpse of our Creator!!!! I found something that I hope will complement this thread – it's from Evangelical Dictionary of Theology edited by Walter A. Elwell, Emotion, pages 352, 353:
"…Yet discovering God's affirmation of emotions does not answer our question about their intended role in personality. God makes us emotional creatures because he is emotional in nature and wished to create us like himself. But how are we to respond to our emotions? Can they be trusted as a guide for behavior?
An answer to these difficult questions must begin with the realization that our emotionality bears the mark of the fall…It would seem that any emotional expression has the potential of being either God-honoring or God-displeasing.
The response of some Christians to this realization has been to suppress emotional expression. They feel that while they may not be able to control the experience of the emotion, they certainly can control its expression. Rather than have their life complicated by deciding between appropriate and inappropriate expressions, they simplify matters by attempting top minimize emotional expression. However, such emotional suppression is not only the cause of many psychological problems, it should probably also be seen as a sinful response to emotion in that it violates God's intentions. Emotions were given in order to energize behavior and were intended by God to be a catalyst for action. Because of the fall they are imperfect guides to behavior, so we cannot simply 'do as we feel.' But we must pay attention to our feelings. Only when they are acknowledged can the appropriate response be made.
Christianity…gives man's emotional life a balanced place. In contrast to the Stoics, who viewed emotion as irrational, and the Epicureans, who acquiesced to the inevitability of emotions, Jesus realistically faced emotion in man's life and provided us with guidelines for emotional expression. Life gains an intensity and richness when emotions are used as valid means of relating to the world, other people, and to God…"
End of excerpt
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socks
That's an interesting statement. This whole topic makes me think. Choices seem to be made based on basic emotional "feelings". When I'm hungry, I feel the need for food. But I could be offered something I didn't want to eat and had no desire for - desire being the emotion. Even though I'm hungry, I could choose not to eat that food. Or I could be offered something I didn't think was food, like a bar of something strange looking. Eventually if I didn't make any choices I'd be driven to eat something even if it wasn't what I desired, but I would never eat something I didn't think was food, regardless of how hungry I was. Once I was hungry enough my desire for anything to satisfy the hunger would (I guess) take over and I'd choose to eat anything, as long as I knew it was food.
This makes me think - how important it is to thoughtfully recognize, develop and consider my emotions. If they're what's telling me what choices to make I'm going to have them and live by them, one way or the other.
The whole concept of God being an entity, a "something", with thoughts, purpose and activity, means there would have to be emotions of some kind working - verses like "for it is God who works in me both to WILL and to DO of His good pleasure" ... the "pleasure" or satisfaction comes as a result of something done, and the desire to do it is what causes me to do it. I would think if there was a purpose to life and a future of amy kind ofr it there has to be emotion driving it, otherwise there would be no purpose to begin with. Even if the purpose was "let's see what happens and then we'll know', something - which could be considered an emotional preference - is causing that choice to be made. Why see what's going to happen, or why do anything, if there's no desire or anticipation to see the results?
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dancing
The intensity of the Love is so great that it is wrath and fire and burning and rain and rain and raining of that great power from on high that is so overwhelming and overpowering that our souls are overwhelmed with it and we cannot speak.
The hate is more then any hatred that can be seen with the carnal eye.
It is Love, this hatred that takes you to the depths of hell and the heights of heaven.
There is no power greater then the Love that is in the Spirit.
The tears are great and many as the tears of Joy overcome it.
Compassion is mercy and grace, and grace and mercy is compassion.
author unknown
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Abigail
T-Bone, I like what you added. I would also add, within the framework of the laws laid out in Judaism, are proper and healthy ways to express emotion. Are they necessarily the ONLY proper and healthy ways? I wouldn't go so far as to say that - but they do strike me as beautiful.
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T-Bone
Abigail, I assume you're referring to my quote from the Evangelical Dictionary "Christianity…gives man's emotional life a balanced place." The only reason I left that in there was because I thought it was closely knit with the thrust of the paragraph...I certainly didn't mean to cast any other belief system in a disparaging light...
...The Christian Faith is my viewpoint - as Judaism is yours - certainly an obvious fact - and to me an exciting one. As I expressed on another thread - exploring a topic from various viewpoints can be both a matter of debate and discovery - and I like it when it's more about discovery, as you know how I've been on some other doctrinal threads...
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