He was a Doctor of Education. Which is probably why he preferred to stay in the school systems.
When I got in the way (the 1970's) none of VPW's older kids really "stood" with him. And the younger ones were still in high school - and not really active as some of us other high school idiots were.
His one daughter did edit his printed stuff but they were'nt "leaders" by any stretch - probably never even went to fellowship.
Don was a principle of a High School in Wisconsin - if memory serves. I'm guessing he had earned a Master's degree. He was not active as a leader in the way till his daddy bought the Emporia Campus and Don came down to run it and get his PhD at a nearby college. He used his work running Emporia as his thesis.
The plan was to buy Emporia in such a way as to keep it legally as the same entity and hence grandfather the accrediation. This would allow some way corps to get $$ from the GI bill to pay for tuition etc. But the deal fell thru and they ended up with the campus and buildings etc. but no accrediation. I don't know if they got snookered by the sellers, or their legal team bungled the deal.
Anyway Don got a campus to play with and use for his PhD thesis. My personal opinion (with no evidence other than my feeling from knowing Don personally) is that Don would probably not have gotten involved with the way if that had not happened.
I'm near, almost, absolutely sure it was revelation possibly.
;)-->
Hey here is a funny tid bit of my life. Totally true story... Cut and pasted from the "My Story" forum.
quote: The following ROA was when LCM went nuts (no pun intended) about homosexuals. My older brother was now in residence and my P's and younger bro were going to go WOW that year, again. Of course, it was cancelled that year and IMO this is the year "control" came out of the closet. My parents were still corp and needed someplace to go.
Funny story. We are in the corp relo tent or something and we are discussing with the Rev. Ander___ on where they can go. It came down to either Dallas, TX as BC as they were before in FL or twig coor. in the town I was now in. The rev was our elder corps while we were in residence . So we were down. Well he goes to talk things over or go abroad or something and it was taking him a while to get back with us.
Meanwhile, we are standing waiting and talking about their options when one Rev. J Rumproast came over and asked us if he could help. They told him their deal and how they couldn't decide what would be best. So, He pulls out a coin and says this "This is how we do it in the back... Heads, it?s Dallas, tails it?s B-more. He smiles as though he is kind of joking but totally serious as though he had been inspired by God to do this. It was heads! Praise the Lord! Right about the time everyone is shaking hands and saying our goodbyes to Rev. Rump the Rev. Ander-son-of-a comes walking back in. He is ....ed. He obviously saw some of what went on but insted of yelling at the rump he yells at my parents. To my suprise, my OSD (ol step dad) yells back. I was about to ****e myself. This was Ander-son-of-a--, not some snot-nosed kid. Guess who won? They didn't go to Dallas they went to try and B-more in B-more.
I once voiced my concerns to the R Rump about the great and mighty LCM and my disbelief of the nonsense he called Gowds word.
This was about the time all the wanna be ordained were wearing the same tie and suit as the MOG in hopes of getting noticed.
You know what he said. He got this kinda twinkle in his eye or maybe it was a twitch I never really figured out which one it was but I lean towards twitch. Then he starts going on about the wonder and magnificence of LCM. He told me not to worry about LCM that LCM was ready to lead millions. What a joke.
I thought to myself at the time, "What an *** kisser. LCM will never need toilet paper as long as this butt wipe is around." I knew the Rump was destined for greatness after that. Nobody came even close to the kinda anal cleansing Rump gave LCM. You know LCM's cheeks giggled whenever the Rump was near.
continued on next post....
[This message was edited by early2it on January 13, 2004 at 7:40.]
When I was in the Way ordination and every thing offered by the ministry was dished out according to the creative man pleasing ability of the one seeking the prize.
Forgive the mutiple post it only lets me post so much at one time for some reason.
I think this topic came up years ago on Waydale, but it might bear rehashing. Can anyone describe the TWI process for ordination? How are you selected. are there politics involved, are there commitments, etc, etc. The reverend title carried a lot of weight in the TWI hiearchy and seem to be a get-out-of-jail-free card for some but not for others. I'd really like to hear what some of the WC vets know on the subject.
i can't help but see a connection with some gals being friendly with the doctor and they got ordained
which begs the question, what did the guys that got ordained have to overlook to get the mantle ...? Was therea n oath of secrecy, don't tell about the sexcapades? or some such thang? good grief ...
I got ordinated. I just got a letter from LCM, inviting me to become ordained. I accepted. I was honoured, in total disbelief, and couldn't believe that it had happened to me. The tent almost caved in that night.
I knew of no politics leading up to my "appointment". I was a simple "Twig Area Leader", and the people in my area loved me and we had a very very fun fellowship in Kenai, Alska. It all seemed very pure to me.....
which begs the question, what did the guys that got ordained have to overlook to get the mantle ...? Was therea n oath of secrecy, don't tell about the sexcapades? or some such thang? good grief ...
I have this to say. There was nothing of the sort that you have questioned. Nothing at all. No secrecy at all. It was all a very pure invitation. I do not say this to divert attention away from some of the evil involved in The Way, but I say it because it is was it WAS when it happened to me..
I just wanted to serve God, as ExCath mentioned, and it seemed to be the thing for me to do at that time...I only wish I had known the future at that time. But then again, I felt highly honored, because I knew that the reason my ordination came up was because the people in my area loved me so. At that time I was newly married and with child (our first-Tialani), and the folksd in our area loved us and we them....
And so, I said "yes" to LCM's invitation. I remember that I cried when I showed the letter to my new wife. My same wife Shannon after 23 years and four Children. But, that is just MY story. Others may have a story that is different.....
i guess some areas may have had guys ordained on requests from the area ... but some I knew seemed to be in on the fraud side ... it put the "clergy" on some special level .. which in twi was not really a good thing ... some were just not spiritually aware enough to be tuned in to the crap that was posing as their elders and spiritual guides? I don't know ... i guess some just did the best in their areas ... fine.
I don't think i could call anything from VP pure. Doesn't mean everyone was in on all the evil, just unaware? I think there is zero correlation to gift ministries and ordination in twi, or maybe a negative correlation. Those that resisted the evil were kicked out, not ordained.
And so, I said "yes" to LCM's invitation. I remember that I cried when I showed the letter to my new wife. My same wife Shannon after 23 years and four Children. But, that is just MY story. Others may have a story that is different.....
Awww Jonny.....Just knowing how you are, you seem like one of the few who did honor what your ordination meant. Had there been more men like you in twi, it may have been better than it was. I know you made a difference in people's lives just because I know how you care about people here. You are genuine. I like that about you.
Whether there were actual requirements or not, I never knew what they were from where I sat. When I was first involved in TWI, the only Revs that I knew about were John Lynn (Limb & Region Coordinator) and Barb Gr*y (later L*lly) who was an Area Coordinator. Our Area Coordinator was an interim Corps guy and all the BC's were non-Corps. When I was out WOW, a family coordinator a few towns over was a 4th Corps Rev, but the Limb Coordinator was not. It never seemed to have much rhyme or reason
In the early seventies( sorry my recollections always seem to be from ancient history books) it was taught very clearly ,though I don't recall the chapters and verses used, that ordination was contingent upon 1.) revelation, 2.) having a gift ministry. In fact, when we would hear of an ordination, we would always want to know what gift ministry the person had. There was another poster who I think may have been from the same area as me who echoed a recollection of this practise as well.
I think in the beginning, VP needed leadership, as pretty much everyone in the early corps, 1-4 were ordained - men and women, all except DM for some reason, or if it was an already married couple, it was the man who was ordained, but VP was ordaining women. Then, we see, for the 5th corps, it was an invitation to all, or at least many, as several women accepted.
I too, was told in the early days, the person who was ordained had a ministry, and of course, us peons would try and figure them out. I do remember, the women were always "pastors" - looking back on it, I think that was the generic ministry if they didn't have something obvious, but were nice people and played well with others.
From 6th corps on, you had virtually almost no women ordained, I can think of two off the top of my head, but it became more rare. By that time, it had become the top reward a man could get. From then on, it was an incredible carrot incentive. I think the 7th was the last corps a woman was ordained - just two of them were, none from the 8th on.
By then, I noticed, especially on the field, ordination became more of a reward for running lots of classes, or, if there was an area that needed a Rev. and someone was like by the people, and was in a branch or area leadership position, they were recommended for ordination.
I knew many men in later corps, who would tell me over coffee, they were going to graduate the corps, run a lot of classes on the field and get ordained. Ordination became a big goal. They had their lives mapped out and by then had observed, and knew exactly what they had to do to win the big prize.
One of the few women I knew in NYC who had a true evangelical ministry and won people and ran classes back to back and who was adored by her people, was promised ordination. She was 10th corps I think. She was just amazing. I ran into her at the last corps week where they had ordinations at corps week, or the rock, whenever it was, and she was devastated. They had told her that, now that they had men who had risen up to "believe" - women were no longer needed as reverends and would not be ordained. It was sad, she had a ministry, did more that most men in the state, but was denied.
By the 9th corps on, corps women were to be twig leaders, support their husbands, or, if they were single, their mission was to support the local leadership. That was the leadership line by then.
By then I was also wondering why some true a**holes and other idiots were being ordained, the whole thing was becoming suspect.
My brother, who was a 12th corps grad, who was doing a great job as an area leader in a large city, was offered ordination. He also had a job doing what he loved and was doing very well at it. It had been his childhood dream to do this career, and he was in a place where it could happen and he was becoming very successful at it. He asked me what I thought, should he or shouldn't he? I honestly replied, no, don't do it. He asked me why, and I said, you will have to give up your career. You will belong to TWI, they will own you. They will probably ask you to go to a root location and coordinate or be an assistant corps coordinator, or go run a limb somewhere or go on staff.
I told him if he didn't do what they asked, he would be considered a cop out. I said, you can do your career and still serve God's people. The funny thing is, everyone thought he was a reverend anyway - his inner city believers, but they thought he was humble because he never mentioned it or used the title.
He decided not to, and is darned glad to this day that he didn't accept.
I know there were some great clergy, men and women who truly deserved the title, but as time went on, I rarely saw anyone who had an obvious ministry. I think most of them didn't. they were more bureaucrats.
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My3Cents
When I got in the way (the 1970's) none of VPW's older kids really "stood" with him. And the younger ones were still in high school - and not really active as some of us other high school idiots were.
His one daughter did edit his printed stuff but they were'nt "leaders" by any stretch - probably never even went to fellowship.
Don was a principle of a High School in Wisconsin - if memory serves. I'm guessing he had earned a Master's degree. He was not active as a leader in the way till his daddy bought the Emporia Campus and Don came down to run it and get his PhD at a nearby college. He used his work running Emporia as his thesis.
The plan was to buy Emporia in such a way as to keep it legally as the same entity and hence grandfather the accrediation. This would allow some way corps to get $$ from the GI bill to pay for tuition etc. But the deal fell thru and they ended up with the campus and buildings etc. but no accrediation. I don't know if they got snookered by the sellers, or their legal team bungled the deal.
Anyway Don got a campus to play with and use for his PhD thesis. My personal opinion (with no evidence other than my feeling from knowing Don personally) is that Don would probably not have gotten involved with the way if that had not happened.
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TheEvan
I tend to agree, Senor 3.
I also got the impression that the dynamics of his relationship with "Dad" were difficult at best.
(One of Don's first cousins once told me "hey, you'd shake too if VP were your dad")
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excathedra
tutties,
is that red phone still working ? or is the fountain water / music or rozetta's fine hairdo causing a problen ?
?
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lindyhopper
I'm near, almost, absolutely sure it was revelation possibly.
Hey here is a funny tid bit of my life. Totally true story... Cut and pasted from the "My Story" forum.
LOL that is still funny.
guess it wasn't revelation after all....
Who's your daddy?
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early2it
LindyHopper,
I once voiced my concerns to the R Rump about the great and mighty LCM and my disbelief of the nonsense he called Gowds word.
This was about the time all the wanna be ordained were wearing the same tie and suit as the MOG in hopes of getting noticed.
You know what he said. He got this kinda twinkle in his eye or maybe it was a twitch I never really figured out which one it was but I lean towards twitch. Then he starts going on about the wonder and magnificence of LCM. He told me not to worry about LCM that LCM was ready to lead millions. What a joke.
I thought to myself at the time, "What an *** kisser. LCM will never need toilet paper as long as this butt wipe is around." I knew the Rump was destined for greatness after that. Nobody came even close to the kinda anal cleansing Rump gave LCM. You know LCM's cheeks giggled whenever the Rump was near.
continued on next post....
[This message was edited by early2it on January 13, 2004 at 7:40.]
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early2it
When I was in the Way ordination and every thing offered by the ministry was dished out according to the creative man pleasing ability of the one seeking the prize.
Forgive the mutiple post it only lets me post so much at one time for some reason.
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Jim
I think this topic came up years ago on Waydale, but it might bear rehashing. Can anyone describe the TWI process for ordination? How are you selected. are there politics involved, are there commitments, etc, etc. The reverend title carried a lot of weight in the TWI hiearchy and seem to be a get-out-of-jail-free card for some but not for others. I'd really like to hear what some of the WC vets know on the subject.
Oh and who was the first person ordained in TWI?
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excathedra
i can't help but see a connection with some gals being friendly with the doctor and they got ordained
the first person ordained in the way ? hmmmmm was it veepee ? peter wade ? i don't know
the criteria ???? nonsense in my humble opinion now at fifty years old
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rhino
which begs the question, what did the guys that got ordained have to overlook to get the mantle ...? Was therea n oath of secrecy, don't tell about the sexcapades? or some such thang? good grief ...
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excathedra
interesting point
sounds like it applies to many (that i knew)
not socks or lingo
since veepee was calling the shots, it had to be hit or miss, in my humble thinking
this is not to say some ordained were not totally in love with god and wanted nothing but to help people
you see what i'm saying
including many of those gals i mentioned
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J0nny Ling0
I got ordinated. I just got a letter from LCM, inviting me to become ordained. I accepted. I was honoured, in total disbelief, and couldn't believe that it had happened to me. The tent almost caved in that night.
I knew of no politics leading up to my "appointment". I was a simple "Twig Area Leader", and the people in my area loved me and we had a very very fun fellowship in Kenai, Alska. It all seemed very pure to me.....
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J0nny Ling0
I have this to say. There was nothing of the sort that you have questioned. Nothing at all. No secrecy at all. It was all a very pure invitation. I do not say this to divert attention away from some of the evil involved in The Way, but I say it because it is was it WAS when it happened to me..
I just wanted to serve God, as ExCath mentioned, and it seemed to be the thing for me to do at that time...I only wish I had known the future at that time. But then again, I felt highly honored, because I knew that the reason my ordination came up was because the people in my area loved me so. At that time I was newly married and with child (our first-Tialani), and the folksd in our area loved us and we them....
And so, I said "yes" to LCM's invitation. I remember that I cried when I showed the letter to my new wife. My same wife Shannon after 23 years and four Children. But, that is just MY story. Others may have a story that is different.....
Edited by Jonny LingoLink to comment
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rhino
i guess some areas may have had guys ordained on requests from the area ... but some I knew seemed to be in on the fraud side ... it put the "clergy" on some special level .. which in twi was not really a good thing ... some were just not spiritually aware enough to be tuned in to the crap that was posing as their elders and spiritual guides? I don't know ... i guess some just did the best in their areas ... fine.
I don't think i could call anything from VP pure. Doesn't mean everyone was in on all the evil, just unaware? I think there is zero correlation to gift ministries and ordination in twi, or maybe a negative correlation. Those that resisted the evil were kicked out, not ordained.
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Nottawayfer
Awww Jonny.....Just knowing how you are, you seem like one of the few who did honor what your ordination meant. Had there been more men like you in twi, it may have been better than it was. I know you made a difference in people's lives just because I know how you care about people here. You are genuine. I like that about you.
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WordWolf
This is a thread about ordination...
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doojable
Nearly 3 AM! Geez WordWolf - go to bed and get some sleep. Or are you a nocturnal creature?
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Oakspear
Whether there were actual requirements or not, I never knew what they were from where I sat. When I was first involved in TWI, the only Revs that I knew about were John Lynn (Limb & Region Coordinator) and Barb Gr*y (later L*lly) who was an Area Coordinator. Our Area Coordinator was an interim Corps guy and all the BC's were non-Corps. When I was out WOW, a family coordinator a few towns over was a 4th Corps Rev, but the Limb Coordinator was not. It never seemed to have much rhyme or reason
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waysider
In the early seventies( sorry my recollections always seem to be from ancient history books) it was taught very clearly ,though I don't recall the chapters and verses used, that ordination was contingent upon 1.) revelation, 2.) having a gift ministry. In fact, when we would hear of an ordination, we would always want to know what gift ministry the person had. There was another poster who I think may have been from the same area as me who echoed a recollection of this practise as well.
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waysider
JL--------is it possible yours was because you fit that criteria? Food for thought.
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Sunesis
I think in the beginning, VP needed leadership, as pretty much everyone in the early corps, 1-4 were ordained - men and women, all except DM for some reason, or if it was an already married couple, it was the man who was ordained, but VP was ordaining women. Then, we see, for the 5th corps, it was an invitation to all, or at least many, as several women accepted.
I too, was told in the early days, the person who was ordained had a ministry, and of course, us peons would try and figure them out. I do remember, the women were always "pastors" - looking back on it, I think that was the generic ministry if they didn't have something obvious, but were nice people and played well with others.
From 6th corps on, you had virtually almost no women ordained, I can think of two off the top of my head, but it became more rare. By that time, it had become the top reward a man could get. From then on, it was an incredible carrot incentive. I think the 7th was the last corps a woman was ordained - just two of them were, none from the 8th on.
By then, I noticed, especially on the field, ordination became more of a reward for running lots of classes, or, if there was an area that needed a Rev. and someone was like by the people, and was in a branch or area leadership position, they were recommended for ordination.
I knew many men in later corps, who would tell me over coffee, they were going to graduate the corps, run a lot of classes on the field and get ordained. Ordination became a big goal. They had their lives mapped out and by then had observed, and knew exactly what they had to do to win the big prize.
One of the few women I knew in NYC who had a true evangelical ministry and won people and ran classes back to back and who was adored by her people, was promised ordination. She was 10th corps I think. She was just amazing. I ran into her at the last corps week where they had ordinations at corps week, or the rock, whenever it was, and she was devastated. They had told her that, now that they had men who had risen up to "believe" - women were no longer needed as reverends and would not be ordained. It was sad, she had a ministry, did more that most men in the state, but was denied.
By the 9th corps on, corps women were to be twig leaders, support their husbands, or, if they were single, their mission was to support the local leadership. That was the leadership line by then.
By then I was also wondering why some true a**holes and other idiots were being ordained, the whole thing was becoming suspect.
My brother, who was a 12th corps grad, who was doing a great job as an area leader in a large city, was offered ordination. He also had a job doing what he loved and was doing very well at it. It had been his childhood dream to do this career, and he was in a place where it could happen and he was becoming very successful at it. He asked me what I thought, should he or shouldn't he? I honestly replied, no, don't do it. He asked me why, and I said, you will have to give up your career. You will belong to TWI, they will own you. They will probably ask you to go to a root location and coordinate or be an assistant corps coordinator, or go run a limb somewhere or go on staff.
I told him if he didn't do what they asked, he would be considered a cop out. I said, you can do your career and still serve God's people. The funny thing is, everyone thought he was a reverend anyway - his inner city believers, but they thought he was humble because he never mentioned it or used the title.
He decided not to, and is darned glad to this day that he didn't accept.
I know there were some great clergy, men and women who truly deserved the title, but as time went on, I rarely saw anyone who had an obvious ministry. I think most of them didn't. they were more bureaucrats.
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coolchef
yes there some great clergy
can anyone say jim doop bob hannon more and more
but there were more rotten than good
does anyone know if dana armweak was one the ordained that went through corps?
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