Belle------ It all depends on how you define "is". Would that be the Greek "is", the Aramaic "is" or the actual actual usage according to actual misusage?
It may be an internet thing too. I'm a member of a few other boards and let me tell you.
Fine points get debated with "great energy".
Hairs get split so much the local Association of Rabbits files a protest.
I believe it's the anonymous nature of the internet put together with the lack of any visual, and audible cues to tell you when a person is very serious or joking or whatever.
Alright, I never was one for arguing about semantics. It seems we do that a lot on here -a lot!I certainly learned how to do it very well in TWI. I could strain gnats with the best of 'em. I've really tried to give that up as it really, usually isn't all that important to begin with.
Is it some aspect of TWIt brain that we can't get rid of?
Is it something "normal" people do all the time?
Is it really that big of a deal?
Is it just a certain "personality trait" in some folks?
Is it a defense mechanism for some when others disagree with them on something?
I know what you mean about straining gnats - I remember the concern to be accurate in our words in my TWI days. I think a lot of that was really learning TWI doublespeak. Here's part of Wikipedia's definition of semantics:
"In linguistics, semantics is the subfield that is devoted to the study of meaning, as borne on the syntactic levels of words, phrases, sentences, and sometimes larger units of discourse, generically referred to as texts. As with any empirical science, semantics involves the interplay of concrete data with theoretical concepts, and specializations have developed that focus on different parts of that interaction, for example, the semantics of natural languages and formal languages, respectively.
I agree with Tom - as far as how some ex-TWI folk may have a tendency to pick and pick. But I do think it's helpful and necessary at times to ask someone to clarify what they mean by saying something a certain way or even to ask them how they define a word they used...Also we are at a disadvantage dialogging over the Internet - missing out on the body language, inflections, etc...
It isn't necessarily twi folk who get down and dirty like this, lots of us are very into comparing things in a detailed manner....some by personality and some by training.
I think it's the last on the list; a defense mechanism. It's just like a lot of the politically correct arguments. If you can't find fault with the message, chip away at the messenger, starting with semantics.
I think that there are many different aspects of this...some had this habit before twi, some learned it in twi, some never picked it up....some found it helpful for understanding some things, some found it helpful for hurting others and defending themselves, some found it all hogwash.
I do know that I just went through two situations where straining gnats turned something very good into something evil...and the 'possessed' word was even lobbed at someone. It was all done so as to avoid facing something.
It can be informative, clarifying and fun when one pays attention to semantics. Usually most people don't know the meanings of words well enough to prevent a whole lot of pain, though.
Regardless, many relationships boil down to semantics...
The lack of desire to consider change or variations~
While observing a Kindergarten class, differences are voiced frequently by the children. They 'Tattle', 'Correct each other'... 'that's not the right way to do it... we don't do it like that at our house'...
Seems like part of human nature... something that requires WORK to change
While I agree with you Belle on the ''importance'' of it in regards to real ''gnats''.
You know, those Pharasee's were real good at taking maticulous time to make sure every stinken ''unclean'' gnat was picked out of their teeth that had fallen into the wine..........
all the while ''swallowing camels'', like adultery, or not loving people, or drunkenes, or looking the other way when someone was molesting a child........ is what that record Jesus spoke talks about.
I don't think ''semantics'' in the Way is the same as the importance it plays when it comes to deafeating the Pharasee's of our day. Without it, you'll still put up with the buggers cuz you think it's ''straining gnats''.
Semantics helps determine what is ''bad'' from ''not good''. (or good from not bad)
check this out as an example of what I (me only) thinks is relevant to this discussion....
Unfortunately, when straining gnats, all one is left with is the gnats, and whatever good was there usually is lost in the process (the for-God-so-loved-the-world stuff).
I think Ohio cornfields are fertile field for gnat straining. My husband, Fred-from-Akron-Ohio, has, as long as I know him (which is long before twi for us), uses a set number of squares of toilet paper for his BR routine, which needs to happen at a specific time of day or he is miserable until the next day at the appointed time, when (hopefully) he can get back on track.
Some people are like that.
But God's love (still) can cover a multitude of sins.
Belle------ It all depends on how you define "is". Would that be the Greek "is", the Aramaic "is" or the actual actual usage according to actual misusage?
HAHA! That was pretty funny waysider! It also brings me to my point...
In my opinion, semantics wouldn't be such an issue if we used multiple words for the same thing depending on meaning & context. For example, the word "love" might have multiple translations in another language depending on meaning and context. Or another example, isn't it the eskimos that have 100s of words to explain "snow". Each word for "snow" indicates something different.
One of the tragedies of the English language is that we have stripped down meanings in order to have one simplified word. Therfore, there tends to be a lot of confusion because people interpret words differently depending on their own experiences and expectations of meaning. I think semantics become an important thing then because otherwise we are all just talking at each other instead of truly understanding what another person is saying.
In a recent reunion with a dear exway friend, he stated that he no longer "hangs people with their words."
I thought that a good phrase.
IMO (no data to really back it up..other than the initials that follow my name..KGBE (knowledge gained by experience) ).... it's a personality thing; it's a defense mechanism; and it is taken to the extreme in TWI. At the same time it is necessary in order to communicate clearly.
Certain self talk phrases/words I've had to change in order to help myself have been very crucial for me. Is that part of semantics? Perhaps that has to do more with the context(s) in which those words were used and the impression they made upon my psyche?
I enjoy words...especially etymologies. Words are like culture to me, colorful and fascinating. I'm a peruser of the word section at bookstores. And I used to "love" to do word studies...yep... I really did. :)
BTW: Since leaving TWI, I especially enjoy using the word "hope" in contexts outside TWI's definition.
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waysider
Belle------ It all depends on how you define "is". Would that be the Greek "is", the Aramaic "is" or the actual actual usage according to actual misusage?
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Tom Strange
I think a lot of it has to do with TWI. They picked and picked thus we picked and picked... and still pick... sometimes.
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SFSailor
It may be an internet thing too. I'm a member of a few other boards and let me tell you.
Fine points get debated with "great energy".
Hairs get split so much the local Association of Rabbits files a protest.
I believe it's the anonymous nature of the internet put together with the lack of any visual, and audible cues to tell you when a person is very serious or joking or whatever.
SFSailor
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T-Bone
I know what you mean about straining gnats - I remember the concern to be accurate in our words in my TWI days. I think a lot of that was really learning TWI doublespeak. Here's part of Wikipedia's definition of semantics:
"In linguistics, semantics is the subfield that is devoted to the study of meaning, as borne on the syntactic levels of words, phrases, sentences, and sometimes larger units of discourse, generically referred to as texts. As with any empirical science, semantics involves the interplay of concrete data with theoretical concepts, and specializations have developed that focus on different parts of that interaction, for example, the semantics of natural languages and formal languages, respectively.
Depending on the perspective taken up, semantics may include the study of connotative sense and denotative reference, truth conditions, argument structure, thematic roles, discourse analysis, and the linkage of all of these to syntax."
I agree with Tom - as far as how some ex-TWI folk may have a tendency to pick and pick. But I do think it's helpful and necessary at times to ask someone to clarify what they mean by saying something a certain way or even to ask them how they define a word they used...Also we are at a disadvantage dialogging over the Internet - missing out on the body language, inflections, etc...
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krys
It isn't necessarily twi folk who get down and dirty like this, lots of us are very into comparing things in a detailed manner....some by personality and some by training.
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Tom Strange
Good points SF and T-Bonito...
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johniam
I think it's the last on the list; a defense mechanism. It's just like a lot of the politically correct arguments. If you can't find fault with the message, chip away at the messenger, starting with semantics.
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CoolWaters
I dunno, Belle...
I think that there are many different aspects of this...some had this habit before twi, some learned it in twi, some never picked it up....some found it helpful for understanding some things, some found it helpful for hurting others and defending themselves, some found it all hogwash.
I do know that I just went through two situations where straining gnats turned something very good into something evil...and the 'possessed' word was even lobbed at someone. It was all done so as to avoid facing something.
It can be informative, clarifying and fun when one pays attention to semantics. Usually most people don't know the meanings of words well enough to prevent a whole lot of pain, though.
Regardless, many relationships boil down to semantics...
Know what I mean jelly bean?
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SafariVista
The desire to be right~
The desire to understand~
The lack of desire to consider change or variations~
While observing a Kindergarten class, differences are voiced frequently by the children. They 'Tattle', 'Correct each other'... 'that's not the right way to do it... we don't do it like that at our house'...
Seems like part of human nature... something that requires WORK to change
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bliss
While I agree with you Belle on the ''importance'' of it in regards to real ''gnats''.
You know, those Pharasee's were real good at taking maticulous time to make sure every stinken ''unclean'' gnat was picked out of their teeth that had fallen into the wine..........
all the while ''swallowing camels'', like adultery, or not loving people, or drunkenes, or looking the other way when someone was molesting a child........ is what that record Jesus spoke talks about.
I don't think ''semantics'' in the Way is the same as the importance it plays when it comes to deafeating the Pharasee's of our day. Without it, you'll still put up with the buggers cuz you think it's ''straining gnats''.
Semantics helps determine what is ''bad'' from ''not good''. (or good from not bad)
check this out as an example of what I (me only) thinks is relevant to this discussion....
http://www.preteristsite.com/plain/warrensemantics.html
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Kit Sober
Unfortunately, when straining gnats, all one is left with is the gnats, and whatever good was there usually is lost in the process (the for-God-so-loved-the-world stuff).
I think Ohio cornfields are fertile field for gnat straining. My husband, Fred-from-Akron-Ohio, has, as long as I know him (which is long before twi for us), uses a set number of squares of toilet paper for his BR routine, which needs to happen at a specific time of day or he is miserable until the next day at the appointed time, when (hopefully) he can get back on track.
Some people are like that.
But God's love (still) can cover a multitude of sins.
Hopefully,
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qtana
HAHA! That was pretty funny waysider! It also brings me to my point...
In my opinion, semantics wouldn't be such an issue if we used multiple words for the same thing depending on meaning & context. For example, the word "love" might have multiple translations in another language depending on meaning and context. Or another example, isn't it the eskimos that have 100s of words to explain "snow". Each word for "snow" indicates something different.
One of the tragedies of the English language is that we have stripped down meanings in order to have one simplified word. Therfore, there tends to be a lot of confusion because people interpret words differently depending on their own experiences and expectations of meaning. I think semantics become an important thing then because otherwise we are all just talking at each other instead of truly understanding what another person is saying.
Am I totally missing the point here?
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I Love Bagpipes
In a recent reunion with a dear exway friend, he stated that he no longer "hangs people with their words."
I thought that a good phrase.
IMO (no data to really back it up..other than the initials that follow my name..KGBE (knowledge gained by experience) ).... it's a personality thing; it's a defense mechanism; and it is taken to the extreme in TWI. At the same time it is necessary in order to communicate clearly.
Certain self talk phrases/words I've had to change in order to help myself have been very crucial for me. Is that part of semantics? Perhaps that has to do more with the context(s) in which those words were used and the impression they made upon my psyche?
I enjoy words...especially etymologies. Words are like culture to me, colorful and fascinating. I'm a peruser of the word section at bookstores. And I used to "love" to do word studies...yep... I really did. :)
BTW: Since leaving TWI, I especially enjoy using the word "hope" in contexts outside TWI's definition.
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