I think it was a good way to override your own common sense.
What do you mean "overide your own common sense" when we were all (supposedly) likeminded at the time?
And just whose "common sense" were you going to overide back then anyway - without you being ostracized?
All it was - was just a good lesson for someone to be exposed to - to learn and to master: group think!
And some people I see have learned the lesson very well. Some people still love to practice it on others - especially when "they" won't conform to thegroup thinkprevalent here.
Gaaaak! I just remembered they had us use some smarmy sales technique where we were to look down, wipe our feet on the doormat and start stepping forward with hand stretching out for the doorknob! Were the JW's instructed to do this kind of thing?
I always felt that the natural way to meet people (work, neighbors, etc.) was the best way to find people who might be interested in the product of pfal...and of course at the time I believed that pfal was worthy or our time. I never liked "cold calls" or sales. You know, I sold shoes in an upscale boutique for 11 months of the wow year. I was pretty good at it because I was friendly and would tell the women if the shoes looked good on their feet or not...never pressured the customer even though my boss wanted me to. Of course, I didn't believe the boss at the boutique was my spiritual elder, either.
Gaaaak! I just remembered they had us use some smarmy sales technique where we were to look down, wipe our feet on the doormat and start stepping forward with hand stretching out for the doorknob! Were the JW's instructed to do this kind of thing?
I always felt that the natural way to meet people (work, neighbors, etc.) was the best way to find people who might be interested in the product of pfal...and of course at the time I believed that pfal was worthy or our time. I never liked "cold calls" or sales. You know, I sold shoes in an upscale boutique for 11 months of the wow year. I was pretty good at it because I was friendly and would tell the women if the shoes looked good on their feet or not...never pressured the customer even though my boss wanted me to. Of course, I didn't believe the boss at the boutique was my spiritual elder, either.
When I went to the Kindom Hall they had a whole meeting devoted to door to door techniques.What to say.How to bring up scripture.How to show them from there bible.It was called the service meeting.Woman practiced talking to one another in public at these meetings.Men usually gave longer speaches because men are allowed to teach and women aren't allowed to teach men.It's a headship thing.Men being the head and women being under men.you actually have to sign up for this it was called the Ministry School.
Heres another question for anyone who wants to answer it.What do pfal classes teach?How much do they cost?And were you required to take them?
NONI 1974--------COST OF PFAL: --The cost for taking PFAL in 1972, the year I first took it, was $65.It incuded another class known as "Tongues With Interpretation And Prophesy". Right after I took it , the class was split into two seperate classes with the TIP segment then being renamed " The Intermediate Class"and having it's own seperate charge of $45.I then had to pay the additional $45 and take the Intermediate Class , hearing virtually the same teachings, to be considered a grad of that class. ----REQUIRED?-----If you did not either take the class or make a monetary commitment to do so, your days of being welcome in twig fellowship (home meetings) were definately numbered. Allow me to use an analogy. At the local skate park there are from time to time new kids who will show up with a really hot board, the latest skate shoes, and a conversation filled with hip skater jargon. The one thing they lack is the actual ability to skate. In other words, they are considered phonies. The real thrashers call them "posers" . Not only can they spot them easily, they subtly avoid welcoming them into the fold. Noone wants to be considered a"poser" whether at the skate park or at a fellowship. The answer? Learn to skate( take the class). ------WHAT DID PFAL TEACH?-------Well, it consumed a total of thirty six hours spread over three weeks time so specifics are hard to convey. Maybe others can offer examples of doctrine in a less yawn invoking manner than I. In my opinion ,however, it was all devised in a manner that would indoctrinate under the guise of "teaching" and some of those doctrines might ,in fact, be more relavent than the scriptural teaching but that is probably assuming too much on my part about how important you see the actual scriptural teaching.
WW-------You proved my point: There really ARE others who can explain it in a less yawn inducing fashion than myself.------------Speaking of yawns, remember KEYS TO RESEARCH?------sorry---off topic.
VP appointing "leadership" was BS - as was the WOW program. Before that people WERE going where God was showing them to go to move the Word. WOW stopped all that. VP said he was putting the WOW program into effect because people were too afraid to answer the call from God to go & move it, & that he was just going to put the WOW program into effect for a few short years until people got over their fear & could answer the call from God directly. Well, obviously VP NEVER ended the WOW program. Actually, people were responding before the WOW program, & stopped afterward.
Sunesis and Tom, thank you!!! This is all very new information to me and helps me to piece together aspects of TWI that I haven't been able to prior to this.
So much for "auxano" growth, eh? Instead of allowing God to work within people and instead of allowing people to overcome fears on their own initiative, vee pee decided to push them into it. THIS is why TWI quit growing - it wasn't from joy or as the result of a natural response, it was forced.... Just like door to door witnessing. What profit is it to force folks to do that when it's not natural for them to do so? What did that kind of program accomplish? Not much other than an embarrassingly small success rate and many, many unhappy folks.
Belle -------while I agree the results of door to door were small, you must factor in the cost to TWI. What's that you say, it cost them nothing? Now there's an advertsing expense to be sought after!
No doubt about that, Waysider. We were not only free advertising, free recruiters, we were also free meeting location providers, free labor, free ...... I take it back - we weren't free anything - we paid them to treat us like dirt, take advantage of us and use us in every way possible.
My point, though, was that, despite TWI saying the purpose was to help us grow (and some folks buying that line :blink: ) TWI was not helping us to grow by mandating door to door witnessing, much less any of the other forced witnessing events. The WOW and WD programs are different because folks knew that would be expected. The rest of us didn't know and the dirty, underhanded tricks to spring it on us at the last minute were just plain wrong.
Furthermore, I have no need to overcome a fear of going door to door. Door to door selling, witnessing, etc. is not something I ever have to do in my lifestyle. Besides that, I think fear was the last emotion anyone was experiencing regarding door to door - disgust, exasperation, embarrassment, anger, humiliation, hate, indifference, excitement, enjoyment...... just about anything else, but not fear. The only thing I was afraid of was knocking on the door of someone I know. I would have just died if that had happened.
If folks are excited, learning new things and enjoying the company of one another, the sharing and outreach is a natural extension of that. TWI didn't merely "encourage" folks to witness they forced folks to selling classes. That's not auxano growth the way they teach it. Just one more hypocritical thing about TWI.
How much do they cost?And were you required to take them?
Hi Noni,
There was no requirement to take PFAL, and the cost varied, depending on what time period you took it. I believe cost ranged from $30-200. Cost me $60.00, but I paid more because I took it at a 1-week camp.
PFAL was full of goodies.
Some wonderful things I learned were...;
God loves me despite my sins (the palms of God)...
How to get born again...
That I have sonship rights...
That I am completely completely absolutely complete in Him...
My power of attorney...
God wants me to hold fast that which is good...
God wants me free from fear worry doubt anxiety and all matter of oppression...
Speaking in tongues...
Jesus Christ is the Way Truth & Life, no man cometh to God but by him...
There is One Baptism by Holy Spirit, and water baptism is not required for salvation...
Jesus Christ is the Son of God, not God the Son...
I am As He Is...
Jesus Kept the Passover...
Whatever a Person Believes Is Directly Reflected In What He Confesses...
Simon of Cyrene and the Cross Christ Bore...
God wants me to believe all the benefits He has promised me thru Christ...
Pauls Thorn in the Flesh...
Ekklesia: Bride or Body?
God is our Sufficiency...
Church the Great Mystery Revealed, Christ in You, the hope of glory...
OLDIES------ Ditto on the "goodies" perspective. We did, in fact, learn many wonderful truths. VPW used to say that if there weren't at least some truth in a presentation noone would "buy" it. Stiles, Leonard, Bullinger, they all had kernals of that "truth". VPW wove those strands into his own unique tapestry. I don't personally think he had long reaching or grandiose plans in mind. No, I think he went with the flow and had a superb understanding of how to read the "current". We learned many great truths but at least in my opinion ( and it is only that---- just my opinion ) I think the cost may have been too high. I ,of course, am not refering to the monetary costs. My mother always said "GOD doesn't love you for who you could be. He loves you for who you are".
I remember door to door witnessing in 74-75 as a college WOW, but it not being restricted to WOWs. I really didn't like it, but chalked that up to my personality which is definitely unsalesmanlike.
I think there was actually a guy who taught sales techniques at HQ or to the Corps and then those were filtered out, about closing a sale, etc.
I also did not see much results from our door to door witnessing. We did have a street grid map that we notated so that we did not cover the same area twice.
But, I did have one success with "cold call type" witnessing - if you want to call it that. There was a guy that I could not care less about, but I decided to witness to him boldly when I ran into him at a bus stop, I guess because I didn't care what he thought. Well, it turned out that he took the class (mostly our measure of a successful witness) and did stick around for a while.
I would actually really like to have that kind of boldness now, not to offend, but to take advantage of those moments that are likely in my path often to share the gospel. There are so many people who could benefit...
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What The Hey
What do you mean "overide your own common sense" when we were all (supposedly) likeminded at the time?
And just whose "common sense" were you going to overide back then anyway - without you being ostracized?
All it was - was just a good lesson for someone to be exposed to - to learn and to master: group think!
And some people I see have learned the lesson very well. Some people still love to practice it on others - especially when "they" won't conform to the group think prevalent here.
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tonto
Gaaaak! I just remembered they had us use some smarmy sales technique where we were to look down, wipe our feet on the doormat and start stepping forward with hand stretching out for the doorknob! Were the JW's instructed to do this kind of thing?
I always felt that the natural way to meet people (work, neighbors, etc.) was the best way to find people who might be interested in the product of pfal...and of course at the time I believed that pfal was worthy or our time. I never liked "cold calls" or sales. You know, I sold shoes in an upscale boutique for 11 months of the wow year. I was pretty good at it because I was friendly and would tell the women if the shoes looked good on their feet or not...never pressured the customer even though my boss wanted me to. Of course, I didn't believe the boss at the boutique was my spiritual elder, either.
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Tom Strange
Tonto was on the sole patrol!!!
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Noni1974
When I went to the Kindom Hall they had a whole meeting devoted to door to door techniques.What to say.How to bring up scripture.How to show them from there bible.It was called the service meeting.Woman practiced talking to one another in public at these meetings.Men usually gave longer speaches because men are allowed to teach and women aren't allowed to teach men.It's a headship thing.Men being the head and women being under men.you actually have to sign up for this it was called the Ministry School.
Heres another question for anyone who wants to answer it.What do pfal classes teach?How much do they cost?And were you required to take them?
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waysider
NONI 1974--------COST OF PFAL: --The cost for taking PFAL in 1972, the year I first took it, was $65.It incuded another class known as "Tongues With Interpretation And Prophesy". Right after I took it , the class was split into two seperate classes with the TIP segment then being renamed " The Intermediate Class"and having it's own seperate charge of $45.I then had to pay the additional $45 and take the Intermediate Class , hearing virtually the same teachings, to be considered a grad of that class. ----REQUIRED?-----If you did not either take the class or make a monetary commitment to do so, your days of being welcome in twig fellowship (home meetings) were definately numbered. Allow me to use an analogy. At the local skate park there are from time to time new kids who will show up with a really hot board, the latest skate shoes, and a conversation filled with hip skater jargon. The one thing they lack is the actual ability to skate. In other words, they are considered phonies. The real thrashers call them "posers" . Not only can they spot them easily, they subtly avoid welcoming them into the fold. Noone wants to be considered a"poser" whether at the skate park or at a fellowship. The answer? Learn to skate( take the class). ------WHAT DID PFAL TEACH?-------Well, it consumed a total of thirty six hours spread over three weeks time so specifics are hard to convey. Maybe others can offer examples of doctrine in a less yawn invoking manner than I. In my opinion ,however, it was all devised in a manner that would indoctrinate under the guise of "teaching" and some of those doctrines might ,in fact, be more relavent than the scriptural teaching but that is probably assuming too much on my part about how important you see the actual scriptural teaching.
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WordWolf
That's 3 questions, not "another."
pfal technically was 3 classes: Foundational, Intermediate, Advanced.
Advanced was taught once or twice a year, at one or more permanent locales,
as demand required, for 2 weeks at a time. Its prerequisites were the
preceeding classes, completion of the "Home Studies" included in the foundational
book, and an entrance exam you didn't take unless you were ready.
Intermediate was taught locally once or more a year, usually every 6 months,
for-was it 7 sessions? Its prerequisite was the foundational class.
Foundational was taught locally once or more a year, usually as often as possible,
every 3-4 months if possible.
(All three levels have been replaced by lcm's "wap" class.)
The prices varied widely depending on the day and time. Usually it was $50.
You received 2 small textbooks, one syllabus/study guide that included the Home
Studies and a space for the intermediate's syllabus. And a pamphlet called
"Christians Should Be Prosperous", which was why you'd be expected to tithe-
and it was REQUIRED reading as homework.
At times, it went up to $100 and briefly to $200. It didn't stay there because
few people could be talked into paying $200 for 12 sessions and those little books.
Although I hear for $200 you got a few more little books.
Sometimes someone claims the prices were to cover overhead.
Meanwhile, vpw himself said it was paid for ahead of time.
(It's in the book "the way:living in love.")
Meanwhile, the tapes were re-used until they rotted,
and the locals bore ALL expenses-location, multimedia, refreshments, etc.
and all the money went to hq.
Eventually, it came down to $40, which is still paying retail for the materials.
(When the JWs bought their own stuff, they paid wholesale, not retail.)
So, twi made a tidy profit on every student-
who was also expected to tithe later (if not during the class.)
So, the prices varied between $200 and $40, with $85 or $50 being common.
The one bright spot is that-subject to space limitations- grads were able to retake
foundational and intermediate classes for free at later times.
Some rules were occasionally added-like making a committment to be at all
sessions if you were going to attend. This was explained to me as helping to
avoid distracting the new students. That's not an idle claim- when I took it,
a lot of people were at Session 1, and tapered off for the next few sessions,
and Session 12 was suddenly filled Standing Room Only,
which WAS distracting.
Were we required to take them?
Well,
no gun was put to our heads.
However,
those hesitating would face a continual media-blitz to convince them it's the
greatest thing since sliced bread, and in some places, they WERE told to
cut loose people who were never interested in taking it.
So, I'd say that we were "de facto" required to take them
if not "de jure".
What do they teach?
pfal started with BG Leonard's class on "Gifts of the Holy Spirit",
with JE Stiles' book on "the Gift of the Holy Spirit" added,
and much material from EW Bullinger on how to understand the Bible,
and Session 1 was loaded with "positive thinking"/magic of believing/Word-Faith stuff.
So, the 12 sessions were effectively divided into thirds:
Introduction, "Law" of believing, how to read and understand the Bible
Pentecost, Salvation, the first Century Church
the Holy Spirit
How much detail are you hoping for?
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waysider
WW-------You proved my point: There really ARE others who can explain it in a less yawn inducing fashion than myself.------------Speaking of yawns, remember KEYS TO RESEARCH?------sorry---off topic.
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Belle
Sunesis and Tom, thank you!!! This is all very new information to me and helps me to piece together aspects of TWI that I haven't been able to prior to this.
So much for "auxano" growth, eh? Instead of allowing God to work within people and instead of allowing people to overcome fears on their own initiative, vee pee decided to push them into it. THIS is why TWI quit growing - it wasn't from joy or as the result of a natural response, it was forced.... Just like door to door witnessing. What profit is it to force folks to do that when it's not natural for them to do so? What did that kind of program accomplish? Not much other than an embarrassingly small success rate and many, many unhappy folks.
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waysider
Belle -------while I agree the results of door to door were small, you must factor in the cost to TWI. What's that you say, it cost them nothing? Now there's an advertsing expense to be sought after!
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Belle
No doubt about that, Waysider. We were not only free advertising, free recruiters, we were also free meeting location providers, free labor, free ...... I take it back - we weren't free anything - we paid them to treat us like dirt, take advantage of us and use us in every way possible.
My point, though, was that, despite TWI saying the purpose was to help us grow (and some folks buying that line :blink: ) TWI was not helping us to grow by mandating door to door witnessing, much less any of the other forced witnessing events. The WOW and WD programs are different because folks knew that would be expected. The rest of us didn't know and the dirty, underhanded tricks to spring it on us at the last minute were just plain wrong.
Furthermore, I have no need to overcome a fear of going door to door. Door to door selling, witnessing, etc. is not something I ever have to do in my lifestyle. Besides that, I think fear was the last emotion anyone was experiencing regarding door to door - disgust, exasperation, embarrassment, anger, humiliation, hate, indifference, excitement, enjoyment...... just about anything else, but not fear. The only thing I was afraid of was knocking on the door of someone I know. I would have just died if that had happened.
If folks are excited, learning new things and enjoying the company of one another, the sharing and outreach is a natural extension of that. TWI didn't merely "encourage" folks to witness they forced folks to selling classes. That's not auxano growth the way they teach it. Just one more hypocritical thing about TWI.
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oldiesman
Hi Noni,
There was no requirement to take PFAL, and the cost varied, depending on what time period you took it. I believe cost ranged from $30-200. Cost me $60.00, but I paid more because I took it at a 1-week camp.
PFAL was full of goodies.
Some wonderful things I learned were...;
God loves me despite my sins (the palms of God)...
How to get born again...
That I have sonship rights...
That I am completely completely absolutely complete in Him...
My power of attorney...
God wants me to hold fast that which is good...
God wants me free from fear worry doubt anxiety and all matter of oppression...
Speaking in tongues...
Jesus Christ is the Way Truth & Life, no man cometh to God but by him...
There is One Baptism by Holy Spirit, and water baptism is not required for salvation...
Jesus Christ is the Son of God, not God the Son...
I am As He Is...
Jesus Kept the Passover...
Whatever a Person Believes Is Directly Reflected In What He Confesses...
Simon of Cyrene and the Cross Christ Bore...
God wants me to believe all the benefits He has promised me thru Christ...
Pauls Thorn in the Flesh...
Ekklesia: Bride or Body?
God is our Sufficiency...
Church the Great Mystery Revealed, Christ in You, the hope of glory...
The Bondage of the Sabbath Day....
Body, Soul, Spirit...
The dead are dead, not alive...
The Unqualified Commitment...
How to be a Christian...
What true worship is...
Filled to Overflowing....
Why Division...
The Final Victory...
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waysider
OLDIES------ Ditto on the "goodies" perspective. We did, in fact, learn many wonderful truths. VPW used to say that if there weren't at least some truth in a presentation noone would "buy" it. Stiles, Leonard, Bullinger, they all had kernals of that "truth". VPW wove those strands into his own unique tapestry. I don't personally think he had long reaching or grandiose plans in mind. No, I think he went with the flow and had a superb understanding of how to read the "current". We learned many great truths but at least in my opinion ( and it is only that---- just my opinion ) I think the cost may have been too high. I ,of course, am not refering to the monetary costs. My mother always said "GOD doesn't love you for who you could be. He loves you for who you are".
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alleycat
I remember door to door witnessing in 74-75 as a college WOW, but it not being restricted to WOWs. I really didn't like it, but chalked that up to my personality which is definitely unsalesmanlike.
I think there was actually a guy who taught sales techniques at HQ or to the Corps and then those were filtered out, about closing a sale, etc.
I also did not see much results from our door to door witnessing. We did have a street grid map that we notated so that we did not cover the same area twice.
But, I did have one success with "cold call type" witnessing - if you want to call it that. There was a guy that I could not care less about, but I decided to witness to him boldly when I ran into him at a bus stop, I guess because I didn't care what he thought. Well, it turned out that he took the class (mostly our measure of a successful witness) and did stick around for a while.
I would actually really like to have that kind of boldness now, not to offend, but to take advantage of those moments that are likely in my path often to share the gospel. There are so many people who could benefit...
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year2027
God first
Beloved Noni1974
God loves you my dear friend
you have asked
------------------------------------------------------------------
Heres another question for anyone who wants to answer it.What do pfal classes teach?How much do they cost?And were you required to take them?
----------------------------------------------------------------
PFAL teach the doctrines of the Way Ministry
1. speaking in tongues
2. the dead are dead
3. give them money -- the tithe is a law of the Way Ministry
3. 99% of all scripture interpretate itself in verese
4. others parts interpretate itself by its context
5. and a few other ways
The Class price depends on when you took it
I would say it ran from $1,000.00 to $40.00
I payed $200.00
I guess it depended on how must they wanted
No you were not required to take the class but if you did not your welcome would end most places
Now I hope you not thinking about taking that class but if you are there are a few X-Way classes out there with better classes I believe
but I believe you can learn more by just asking the believers here
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
God first
Beloved oldiesman
God loves you my dear friend
sorry oldiesman I did not see you answer the question in better detail
I used read bits and pieces of the tread until now
sorry
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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