Well, after 20 plus replies there ought to be a voice of dissent.
If you're going to object, just object. No need to claim there's some sort of "rule" or
something that requires it for the sake of discussion.
VP taught, both in God's Magnified Word and in the Lifestyle of the believer, that man's conscience is his servant, not his master. And that is true.
But we have all been brainwashed to believe that we should "let our conscience be our guide" (Jiminy Cricket from Pinnochio) and also check out the gold fish in Dr. Seuss's The Cat in the Hat. That fish is the self appointed conscience of that story.
Conscience is moral awareness, true, but it's still based 100% on what we've been previously taught. It's our habit patterns. In that film The Prevailing Word VP said that children will never lie to you until the adults teach them how.
[How many children have you ever been around?
You tell the child-who has not been around liars- he or she is not to have a cookie.
When you turn your back, the child gets a cookie.
You come back, repeat the child's instruction not to have a cookie, and put the cookies up high.
The child then climbs to the cookies.
At the sound of the paper rustling, you return.
You ask the child what he or she is doing,
and the child-not educated in lying by anyone else-
replies "I was getting a cookie for you."
You have it BACKWARDS.
Children don't have to learn to LIE. Children have to to learn lying is WRONG.
A child will automatically think and act in a fashion to DO WHATEVER THEY WANT
unless taught to do otherwise. A parent has to introduce CONSEQUENCES to a child
when they child tries to do what is wrong. A person who never learns that there are
consequences to doing wrong will continue to do wrong.
And a person who learns there are consequences to doing wrong- but does
NOT LEARN TO INTERNALIZE THE CONSEQUENCES-
goes on to commit crimes and do their best not to make what they perceive as
"doing wrong"- that is, GETTING CAUGHT.
That's how we get adults who steal, embezzle, murder, rape, and plagiarize.
That's how we get muggers, rapists, murderers,
shooting sprees in colleges and grammar schools,
and ministers who rape their flock.]
One show I watched was 'Judging Amy'. It's your basic liberal socialist propaganda show like others, but Amy is a juvenile court judge who can be brutally honest when rendering a judgement for other peoples' kids, but in dealing with her own child, a teenage girl, she refuses to be honest. She won't even admit that she (Amy) used dope when she was a child and young adult, so of course, her daughter frequently lies to her about stuff and Amy can't put 2 and 2 together to save her life. If you teach kids either verbally or by example that it's OK to lie they'll pick up on it and their consciences won't bother them for doing it.
[if the IMAGINARY CHARACTER on the television show was internally consistent,
the show would be less interesting. Irony adds CONFLICT, and CONFLICT drives stories.
Don't believe me? All stories are said to be defined by conflict by any of 5 types,
whether that's conflict vs self (like confronting one's own hypocrisy raising a child)
or self vs elements (like surviving an avalanche)
or self vs other (any story with a hero and a villain).]
But like I said, a conscience is a man's servant, not his master. We all know the scripture about someone's conscience being seared with a hot iron. This person's habit pattern was to do the word, then they do something they know is off the word the first time and their conscience bothers them a lot, but the more they do it, the less their conscience bothers them until finally it doesn't bother them at all.
Right. That's how you get someone who will do anything they want, and they feel justified
in doing so as long as they don't get caught.
Your example showed one extreme- a numbness to the conscience.
The other extreme-the REVERSE of that- is feeling guilt over the slightest thing, agonizing over
mistakes and slips of an instant for hours or days or weeks.
That's when someone discovers they were given too much change back at a purchase and
feels guilty for hours, or raises their voice once for an instant-lowering it again- and feeling
bad for WEEKS, or someone who promises to call at a certain time, but falls asleep and doesn't
make the call, and doesn't let it go, even after a week passes.
BOTH EXTREMES ARE UNHEALTHY.
God didn't want either. He wanted us to avoid doing wrong, but not to spend our lives obsessing
indefinitely over a moment's tiny slip, to define one's entire day by 3-4 seconds of a mistake
that anyone else might not even notice.]
What about the reverse of that? Instead of having your conscience seared with a hot iron, how about having it "cleared with cool living water"? Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation. What exactly is this 'condemnation'? Judgement? Condemnation is more than just feeling a little pain once in awhile; it's part of the 'dead in tresspasses and sins' package we inherited from Adam. Our habit pattern, no matter what our background is, included much judgement and abuse based on the common expectation of death we all have, again inherited from Adam. So when someone says, "there is therefore now no condemnation", this is quite contrary to our habit pattern isn't it?
[it's contrary to agonizing over tiny slips for hours or days, but if we're used to thinking
we can do whatever we want, it resonates right in harmony with that.
"See-I knew all along I could do whatever I wanted! God's FINE with it!
It's only those unenlightened people that view adultery as wrong, or lying as bad,
or using any means to get money as a crime!"
One should exercise extreme care to not use Romans 8:1 as an excuse to switch off
one's conscience, thus ignoring your earliest "warning system" that you may be doing wrong.]
The first time you consider "no condemnation" your conscience literally bothers you: "No no, that can't be right. It's just too good to be true."
[Depends on what you're considering "no condemnation" for,
and depends on whether you ever thought there was such a thing as you actually doing wrong.]
But the more you consider that Christ paid for "no condemnation" and it's not dependent on your own works, the less it bothers you to think that "no condemnation" could actually be true, until finally, it doesn't bother you at all. THAT is renewed mind!
[but if "no condemnation" means "you can do whatever you want anytime you want-
which, apparently, is what some people have believed-
then you will perform acts God condemned and said not to do,
and say it is not wrong for you to do them.
That's NOT what "renewed mind" is- if "renewed mind" is of God at all.]
[Was there a reason for arguing that one could do whatever they wanted and it's fine
with God if it's fine with you in this post?
Was there a completely-predictable reason for it?
Can there be any question about it?
It takes steps to go from God's "you shall surely die" to the serpent's "you shall not surely die".
One has to travel in small steps to get there, but EVENTUALLY one gets to what God said
NOT to do, and says that's perfectly fine.
Similarly.....]
I don't speak for all, but I absolutely refuse to allow a group of self appointed prosecutors to blow off the good news of "no condemnation" just because VP was human.
[see?
The existence of a conscience and an understanding that things are wrong is bad because
it interferes with the adulation of vpw. "vpw was a serial criminal who had a brilliant scheme that
allowed him to get away with crimes all the time"
becomes "vp was human"
becomes "vpw was human and there's no condemnation"
becomes "vpw should never have felt guilty about anything he did because there's no condemnation"
becomes "vpw was innocent of true wrongdoing, but exposing his deeds IS a wrongdoing"
becomes "vpw was innocent, and you're evil for criticizing him".
That happened all in one post. Scroll up.]
[so, it's wrong for you to expose the evils vpw performed all the time,
and you'll pay for it, you nasty evil people-
you'll be paralyzed with indecision when you decide whether or not to
go with paper or plastic for your grocery bags!]
If your habit pattern is now to figure out every way possible that pfal was a scam, then you'll reap what you sew, and be second guessing every spiritual decision you ever make.
[so, exposing the evils of vpw="a habit pattern to figure out every way possible that pfal was a scam",
=second-guessing yourself every minute of the day.]
[On the other hand,
I'm perfectly fine second-guessing myself if I prepare to commit plagiarism or rape,
or use God's people as merchandise.
I think that's a good idea, and I'd go so far as to say this would be a better society
if those were considered "wrong" by EVERYONE.
Which they ALMOST are, but the vpw worship camp remains firm in maintaining
them as acceptable so long as they're relabelled or they can pretend they
I still believe some of pfal and am thankful for the most part...
what generation of twi are you from?
The design in the 90's was pure works related...
I was in from about 1975 until.. about 1997.
I probably sat through PFAL.. hmm, maybe fifty, sixty times.. I had the number figured out once.
The BEST thing I got out of it was an understanding of a few figures of speech, and went beyond what was taught in pfal.. I'm the only one in my literature class who knows what hypocatastasis is..
could have gotten the same results just buying a book..
I think the primary ways my own conscience was affected is the twi belief system. Things like:
Be especially good to the household (only those in twi)
Who is your neighbor (twi)
Emotions come and go, the Word abides forever (twi version)
That caused me to make decisions that were hurtful to others, ignore my feelings, and think I’d done right.
The mog concept replaced Jesus Christ; vp was my pipeline to God. Not to mention, the Word replaced the “absent” Christ.
Then something I learned recently. Taking the Lord’s name in vain isn’t limited to using the GD word. It is behaving in a manner disrespectful to God. It can be things like putting God’s name on something you decided or did and put God’s name on it, when He had nothing to do with it. For ex: “God told me, I was led, I believed for a parking space”, when He didn’t have anything to do with it. It is anything we do that we connect God to that doesn’t express absolute respect. It is using God’s name frivolously. Treating God like a genie in a lamp springs to mind…how about “clear and concerned” where we direct God as to how to answer prayer?
Then I got my first teaching on what worship really is in church this last Sunday. It is first recognition that God is ALMIGHTY. 2nd, an attitude of humility because of point 1. 3rd, it is not doing things in order to receive from God. 4th, it is understanding that God is the audience, not the congregation. We were taught to worship God via S.I.T., a mindless thing that doesn’t address attitude.
It is just as instructive to look at what was not taught, as what was…
In summary, twi taught me to disrespect God, ignore Jesus Christ, and mistreat most people. This is the real reason I believe twi was/is a cult. In all ways important in my life, twi was a barrier (like a giant, poisonous mattress), and the whole time I was convinced I was right because my conscience took a back seat to my brain which was not functioning on all cylinders because it was permeated with doctrine that rotated around and reflected a disrepect for God.
And in my opinion, vp’s worst sin wasn’t sexual. His worst sin is he made a living taking the Lord’s name in vain as a lifestyle and taught us to do the same. The sexual sin was just one manifestation of it. Every time he twisted the Word to justify his sin (like OT is for our learning, mentions in NT about adultery refer to spiritual adultery) p...ed all over God and then he taught it to us. Every time he took license with the Bible and justified it because he was the mog, he p...ed on God. Every time he declared God told him this or that, lied about the snow, etc. he was taking God’s name in vain as a manner of life. And he sold it to us in a class. It wasn’t ineptness. He taught us to use our minds in a way that produced evil, across the board, and ultimately to ourselves. Just calling a spade a spade.
I understand now Dr. Juedes’ statement on GS Radio about wayfers coming to him after being out 20 yrs and more, still wounded. He said it was a wound to the heart. I get that.
Well, after 20 plus replies there ought to be a voice of dissent.
VP taught, both in God's Magnified Word and in the Lifestyle of the believer, that man's conscience is his servant, not his master. And that is true.
But we have all been brainwashed to believe that we should "let our conscience be our guide" (Jiminy Cricket from Pinnochio) and also check out the gold fish in Dr. Seuss's The Cat in the Hat. That fish is the self appointed conscience of that story.
Conscience is moral awareness, true, but it's still based 100% on what we've been previously taught. It's our habit patterns. In that film The Prevailing Word VP said that children will never lie to you until the adults teach them how. One show I watched was 'Judging Amy'. It's your basic liberal socialist propaganda show like others, but Amy is a juvenile court judge who can be brutally honest when rendering a judgement for other peoples' kids, but in dealing with her own child, a teenage girl, she refuses to be honest. She won't even admit that she (Amy) used dope when she was a child and young adult, so of course, her daughter frequently lies to her about stuff and Amy can't put 2 and 2 together to save her life. If you teach kids either verbally or by example that it's OK to lie they'll pick up on it and their consciences won't bother them for doing it.
But like I said, a conscience is a man's servant, not his master. We all know the scripture about someone's conscience being seared with a hot iron. This person's habit pattern was to do the word, then they do something they know is off the word the first time and their conscience bothers them a lot, but the more they do it, the less their conscience bothers them until finally it doesn't bother them at all.
What about the reverse of that? Instead of having your conscience seared with a hot iron, how about having it "cleared with cool living water"? Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation. What exactly is this 'condemnation'? Judgement? Condemnation is more than just feeling a little pain once in awhile; it's part of the 'dead in tresspasses and sins' package we inherited from Adam. Our habit pattern, no matter what our background is, included much judgement and abuse based on the common expectation of death we all have, again inherited from Adam. So when someone says, "there is therefore now no condemnation", this is quite contrary to our habit pattern isn't it?
The first time you consider "no condemnation" your conscience literally bothers you: "No no, that can't be right. It's just too good to be true." But the more you consider that Christ paid for "no condemnation" and it's not dependent on your own works, the less it bothers you to think that "no condemnation" could actually be true, until finally, it doesn't bother you at all. THAT is renewed mind!
I don't speak for all, but I absolutely refuse to allow a group of self appointed prosecutors to blow off the good news of "no condemnation" just because VP was human. If your habit pattern is now to figure out every way possible that pfal was a scam, then you'll reap what you sew, and be second guessing every spiritual decision you ever make.
I don't put a lot of stock in VPW's viewpoint on the conscience anymore than I would some guy telling me his thoughts on what it's like being pregnant.…I don't agree with your words "we have all been brainwashed to believe that we should "let our conscience be our guide" or "Conscience is moral awareness, true, but it's still based 100% on what we've been previously taught. It's our habit patterns." While there is something about the training of our conscience [as MacArthur said – likening its function as more of a skylight than a light bulb – see my post #16] – there appears to be something innate – built into it by God – noting the phrase "that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them" in verse 19 of Romans 1.
Romans 1:18-21 NASB
18 For (AJ)the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who (AK)suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because (AL)that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For (AM)since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, (AN)being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not [c]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became (AO)futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
The above passage suggests God actually left TWO things that testify of His existence: The witness of the created universe and the internal witness – man's conscience. I tend to think in most cultures - past and present – no matter what their belief system was/is – they all possess some innate sense of right and wrong like "it's wrong to kill someone, it's wrong to steal, it's wrong to lie, etc." These thoughts would form the basis of what was acceptable in a tribe, village, society, nation, etc.
I don't put a lot of stock in VPW's viewpoint on the conscience anymore than I would some guy telling me his thoughts on what it's like being pregnant.…I don't agree with your words "we have all been brainwashed to believe that we should "let our conscience be our guide" or "Conscience is moral awareness, true, but it's still based 100% on what we've been previously taught. It's our habit patterns." While there is something about the training of our conscience [as MacArthur said – likening its function as more of a skylight than a light bulb – see my post #16] – there appears to be something innate – built into it by God – noting the phrase "that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them" in verse 19 of Romans 1.
Romans 1:18-21 NASB
18 For (AJ)the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who (AK)suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because (AL)that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For (AM)since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, (AN)being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not [c]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became (AO)futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
The above passage suggests God actually left TWO things that testify of His existence: The witness of the created universe and the internal witness – man's conscience. I tend to think in most cultures - past and present – no matter what their belief system was/is – they all possess some innate sense of right and wrong like "it's wrong to kill someone, it's wrong to steal, it's wrong to lie, etc." These thoughts would form the basis of what was acceptable in a tribe, village, society, nation, etc.
I didn't have time to read through this whole thread, so if I am repeating someone else's thoughts, forgive me.
But, for the first time it has really dawned on me:
They were able to train us to disregard our own judgement because we ASKED them to.
We came to them wanting change. Maybe our life was a complete ruin. Or maybe it really wasn't so bad, but we wanted to do better. We wanted to improve. So we came to them. And they told us the get a different result, you had to do things differently. (yes, that makes sense) So when they told us to put off the old natural man and put on the new spiritual man, of COURSE we listened and obeyed. It was what we came to them to accomplish. It was our driving force: change! --- We ASKED them to teach us another way of thinking --- we just trusted them to be honest in that endeavor and they weren't.
This may seem like a big "duh" to some of you, but for all the years I have explained to friends and family that twi conditioned its followers by incrementally breaking down each person's individuality, and incrementally building up group-think in our brains, it only just really hit me why they could do that to so many of us for so long: because it was the central reason we joined the group in the first place.
Absolutely Highway, but I didn’t know it until recently. I remember when going witnessing, we were to “look for needs.” Seems innocuous enough. We were looking for people not satisfied with their current system for managing life. People who pretty much had it together weren’t typically interested in twi. Well I was one of them. Twi offered simple solutions with what I thought had God’s stamp of approval.
Cults are complicated. I was reading some more about it today. There is great disagreement amongst those in religion, sociology, and psychology on every aspect of the cult experience. I don't know if GS'rs will figure it out in total. I think each day we get a little closer to answering the question, "what happened, and why?" Answering that question helps answer the question "who am I? and why?" Then go back to the beginning and address the issues that led us to want to be taught in the first place.
Well, 60 days in GS and I've gone from thinking vpw was flawed but not that bad, twi was more good than bad under him, Martinfail ruined it, to my post above. I can tell you quite honestly, it wasn't a quick or easy transition, and a part of my mind fought it constantly. All the while, asking myself, "am I thinking evil?" And then, just a few days ago the pieces fell into place and then I understood.
A lot of folks said things quite helpful, although I didn't comment on your posts because most of the time I was pondering, pondering.
This "therefore no condemnation" thing makes my skin crawl and I don't know why right now. I read it in context, and if you lump conscience in with the flesh, then it's saying you have no conscience or your conscience can't be trusted. To me that says you can't trust yourself to know the difference between right and wrong, and ignores what T-bone said. So the next step is no matter, no condemnation. Seems like another way to tune out right from wrong.
Perhaps the way it works is the conscience is a part of walking by the spirit because of "19 because (AL)that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. "
Well, I don't understand, so I'm not being too articulate.
likeaneagle: I've been taking a crash course. I left 7 yrs ago and flat refused to think about any of it at all. Couldn't and wouldn't deal with it. But yeah, like a washing machine. The dirt keeps coming up and I am shocked I put my valuables in it. Then I can't believe I fell for it all. Especially the mog part, most of all.
We have a water problem in my town. Somehow they can't get it together to provide drinkable water. Between Jan and Feb there was a boil water order out. I didn't find out until late Feb. I am a coffee drinker. The water looked ok. I never intended to drink bad water, I just wanted coffee.
This thread has been an amazement to me!!!!! I came to GS because I heard from a friend, a couple months ago, that a TWI fellowship had come to town. I was surprised at my reaction....FEAR!!! It actually made me quiver. My hands visibly shook, and I began to sweat!! That reaction alarmed me. What the he!! was that about?!?!?! I was frightened by the mere thought of a twi6 being close by. That really shook me up bad!!! I stewed over it for several days.
Then, on a whim, I googled TWI and found GS...been here ever since. I read everything here like a man obsessed...articles, stickies, threads...the works! Some of the posts struck home, others made me angry, and others made me cry, but the more I read, the more I realized I HAD TO deal with this TWI infection in ways I had not imagined. My early posts were aimed squarely at vp, the monster. I had thought I was past that, but I wasn't...I had just buried that, and much more deep inside...and hearing about that fellowship brought it all back to the surface. And the more I remembered, the more crap I found lurking in the corners of my mind...that was the most frightening part!
I really believed I had re-examined my belief system sufficiently enough to get my head on straight...well, all I had done was the "feel good" part. I assuaged my pain just enough to get by, but no more. I hadn't addressed the deep seated problems that TWI had instilled in me.
Well, for many years after I left TWI I wouldn't even look at a bible, much less engage in any discussion, or thinking, about it. It brought up too many bad feelings and doubts. To make a long story short, about 5 years ago I began reading the bible again. I had never lost my love for God...it was just buried under all the hurt and doubt. I thought I was reconnecting to Him and re-examining my beliefs. And to a certain extent, I was. I had begun making decisions about how I led my life based on what I was reading in the bible...and those changes have become permanent through the years. I had been working on the simple, basic things...the great commandment, being humble, helping others before I helped myself, looking for the good in others, putting God first in my life, looking to Jesus Christ for guidance, praying for others to prosper while asking only for my needs, etc., etc. In His usual, subtle way, God was, little by little, guiding me back towards Him.
So, what does this rambling have to do with this thread? Well, I just realized that without my conscience being healed up, I would, ultimately, have fallen right back into waybrain thinking, or close to it. What I have just realized today is that what I had actually been doing was rebuilding my conscience...relearning how to distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil. I think that's why GS has made such an impact on my life...it's a whole community of people seeking truth and answers, helping each other to get to that truth and those answers. I immediately recognized that I needed to be involved here. I needed those same truths and answers.
All the postings here have made me think hard about my beliefs and their application...harder than I've ever thought before....and all this thinking is finally paying off...I'm learning vital insights into God's Word and His ways more and more every day...the pieces of the jigsaw really are comming together...and today, a big one dropped in place.
FROM THE DEPTHS OF MY HEART, THANKS GS COMMUNITY! :eusa_clap: :eusa_clap:
So very many of us have written almost the exact same thing at one time or another. It's so comforting to communicate with people about things we struggle with and think about who know where we're coming from, isn't it? To learn the truth about an organization that affected us in so many ways that people outside TWI would never be able to understand.
I remember when I first found WayDale how utterly shocked and appalled I was at the depths of corruption and evil I was oblivious to and had been hidden from me. It was like ice water being thrown on me to realize how duped I was and how unlike myself I had become in all my efforts to live up to and gain approval from wolves in sheep's clothing.
I don't think I slept a wink the first three or four months after finding WayDale and, as it all began to sink in and the initial paralyzing fear, dread and disgust dissipated a little, I was able to start putting things together, actually think somewhat rationally about the whole situation - and it's an overwhelming one to say the least, isn't it?
It does get better and it really helps to get it out - to think out loud - to challenge ideas, teachings, etc. I'm so glad you're here and you contribute just as much as you feel helped. :)
A second "amen" from me too! GSC is an amazing community – so many good things happen at so many levels through a simple give and take process that occurs here. Great folks here! Thanks for everyone's input on this thread – it's very healing to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
quote: While there is something about the training of our conscience [as MacArthur said – likening its function as more of a skylight than a light bulb – see my post #16] – there appears to be something innate – built into it by God – noting the phrase "that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them" in verse 19 of Romans 1.
Sure, God designed the human mind to hold and accomodate His word. Since you DID quote from Romans 1 then I should bring up the double standard about homosexuality. If it's plagiarism or adultery then oh yes "let your conscience be your guide" but if it's homosexuality, then who cares about a conscience. I think THAT is what Romans 1 is leading to, but that's a whole 'nother thread.
quote: This "therefore no condemnation" thing makes my skin crawl and I don't know why right now. I read it in context, and if you lump conscience in with the flesh, then it's saying you have no conscience or your conscience can't be trusted. To me that says you can't trust yourself to know the difference between right and wrong, and ignores what T-bone said. So the next step is no matter, no condemnation. Seems like another way to tune out right from wrong.
Perhaps the way it works is the conscience is a part of walking by the spirit because of "19 because (AL)that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. "
Well, I don't understand, so I'm not being too articulate.
OK, you want substance about not always trusting your own mind?
Prov 28:26 - He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool..
Prov 3:5 - Trust in the Lord with all thine heart, and lean not unto thine own understanding
John 5:30 - I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge and my judgement is just because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me
Romans 7:15 - For that which I do I allow not; for what I would, that do I not, but what I hate, that do I.
Romans 7:22,23 - For I delight in the law of God after the inward man. But I see another law in my members warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members
1 Cor 4:3 - But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you or of man's judgement: yea, I judge not mine own self
You're right, you don't understand.
requote: Perhaps the way it works is the conscience is a part of walking by the spirit because of "19 because (AL)that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. "
Oh, so Jesus Christ died in vain because man already had a spiritual connection with God by simply having a conscience? Christ's sacrifice wasn't necassary? God didn't love the world by giving His only begotten son? God was really a child abuser?
OK, I'm not a big scripture quoter, but here's the way this simple mind of mine sees this conscience stuff.
What is the point of God giving us the Word? To teach us His will? To tell us what He wants us to do? To explain the future, at least in part? To inform us of who our forefathers were and what they accomplished? Yeah, all that...but I think there's more to it.
Maybe it's even simpler than that. Could it be that it's His way of healing our senses oriented mind?...of teaching our mind's conscience to work properly?...to think the right kind of thoughts when making decisions in life? With all the crap vp did in twisting the Word to fit his lusts through TWI, and thus causing untold harm and havoc in the church of the Body (at least our small part of it), do I really think God wouldn't have covertly outflanked the evil one, knowing that false prophets and teachers would come along, and thus construct His Word to produce healing by the simple reading of it, despite the errant teachings of wackos? I think so. I think He heals us through our simple belief in what is plainly written...with all it's mistranslated words, translational errors, additions, and what-have-you. The simple belief in what we individually can understand of the Word will heal our minds and make us more and more able to think like Christ thought.
Now, throw a bunch of us yahoos together to share with each other what we've learned, causing more personal reading time to check things out, and you've got the Word spreading like crazy. Sure is exciting to me!!
I'm still processing a flood of thoughts this thread caused. So, maybe I'm just reiterating what many already know, and I know I'm not being as articulate as I want to be. And I'm not denigrating teaching the Word, just thinking that maybe a pulpit is not the best place for it to happen.
Dunno, gotta go process more. My heads spinning right now...whew!!
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waysider
You're misrepresenting, or, perhaps not understanding, the full scope of Wierwille's deception. Wierwille claimed to have taken his voluminous library to the dump and, instead, used the
Bolshevik
I think it was Himmler, kept a small book on his person, probably Mein Kampf. But he had to remind himself why he was doing what he was doing. (I'm searching for a source). I thought is was notewo
WordWolf
Hello. Your phrasing is somewhat awkward-unclear- here, so I will do my best to address what I THINK are your concerns. "I'M trying to figure out the profit here...the way internationals doctrin
WordWolf
[WordWolf responds.]
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Ham
I was in from about 1975 until.. about 1997.
I probably sat through PFAL.. hmm, maybe fifty, sixty times.. I had the number figured out once.
The BEST thing I got out of it was an understanding of a few figures of speech, and went beyond what was taught in pfal.. I'm the only one in my literature class who knows what hypocatastasis is..
could have gotten the same results just buying a book..
:)
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another spot
I think the primary ways my own conscience was affected is the twi belief system. Things like:
Be especially good to the household (only those in twi)
Who is your neighbor (twi)
Emotions come and go, the Word abides forever (twi version)
That caused me to make decisions that were hurtful to others, ignore my feelings, and think I’d done right.
The mog concept replaced Jesus Christ; vp was my pipeline to God. Not to mention, the Word replaced the “absent” Christ.
Then something I learned recently. Taking the Lord’s name in vain isn’t limited to using the GD word. It is behaving in a manner disrespectful to God. It can be things like putting God’s name on something you decided or did and put God’s name on it, when He had nothing to do with it. For ex: “God told me, I was led, I believed for a parking space”, when He didn’t have anything to do with it. It is anything we do that we connect God to that doesn’t express absolute respect. It is using God’s name frivolously. Treating God like a genie in a lamp springs to mind…how about “clear and concerned” where we direct God as to how to answer prayer?
Then I got my first teaching on what worship really is in church this last Sunday. It is first recognition that God is ALMIGHTY. 2nd, an attitude of humility because of point 1. 3rd, it is not doing things in order to receive from God. 4th, it is understanding that God is the audience, not the congregation. We were taught to worship God via S.I.T., a mindless thing that doesn’t address attitude.
It is just as instructive to look at what was not taught, as what was…
In summary, twi taught me to disrespect God, ignore Jesus Christ, and mistreat most people. This is the real reason I believe twi was/is a cult. In all ways important in my life, twi was a barrier (like a giant, poisonous mattress), and the whole time I was convinced I was right because my conscience took a back seat to my brain which was not functioning on all cylinders because it was permeated with doctrine that rotated around and reflected a disrepect for God.
And in my opinion, vp’s worst sin wasn’t sexual. His worst sin is he made a living taking the Lord’s name in vain as a lifestyle and taught us to do the same. The sexual sin was just one manifestation of it. Every time he twisted the Word to justify his sin (like OT is for our learning, mentions in NT about adultery refer to spiritual adultery) p...ed all over God and then he taught it to us. Every time he took license with the Bible and justified it because he was the mog, he p...ed on God. Every time he declared God told him this or that, lied about the snow, etc. he was taking God’s name in vain as a manner of life. And he sold it to us in a class. It wasn’t ineptness. He taught us to use our minds in a way that produced evil, across the board, and ultimately to ourselves. Just calling a spade a spade.
I understand now Dr. Juedes’ statement on GS Radio about wayfers coming to him after being out 20 yrs and more, still wounded. He said it was a wound to the heart. I get that.
The deeper I look at it, the more appalled I am.
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T-Bone
I don't put a lot of stock in VPW's viewpoint on the conscience anymore than I would some guy telling me his thoughts on what it's like being pregnant.…I don't agree with your words "we have all been brainwashed to believe that we should "let our conscience be our guide" or "Conscience is moral awareness, true, but it's still based 100% on what we've been previously taught. It's our habit patterns." While there is something about the training of our conscience [as MacArthur said – likening its function as more of a skylight than a light bulb – see my post #16] – there appears to be something innate – built into it by God – noting the phrase "that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them" in verse 19 of Romans 1.
Romans 1:18-21 NASB
18 For (AJ)the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who (AK)suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because (AL)that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For (AM)since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, (AN)being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not [c]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became (AO)futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
The above passage suggests God actually left TWO things that testify of His existence: The witness of the created universe and the internal witness – man's conscience. I tend to think in most cultures - past and present – no matter what their belief system was/is – they all possess some innate sense of right and wrong like "it's wrong to kill someone, it's wrong to steal, it's wrong to lie, etc." These thoughts would form the basis of what was acceptable in a tribe, village, society, nation, etc.
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WordWolf
I wish I'd said that...
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TheHighWay
I didn't have time to read through this whole thread, so if I am repeating someone else's thoughts, forgive me.
But, for the first time it has really dawned on me:
They were able to train us to disregard our own judgement because we ASKED them to.
We came to them wanting change. Maybe our life was a complete ruin. Or maybe it really wasn't so bad, but we wanted to do better. We wanted to improve. So we came to them. And they told us the get a different result, you had to do things differently. (yes, that makes sense) So when they told us to put off the old natural man and put on the new spiritual man, of COURSE we listened and obeyed. It was what we came to them to accomplish. It was our driving force: change! --- We ASKED them to teach us another way of thinking --- we just trusted them to be honest in that endeavor and they weren't.
This may seem like a big "duh" to some of you, but for all the years I have explained to friends and family that twi conditioned its followers by incrementally breaking down each person's individuality, and incrementally building up group-think in our brains, it only just really hit me why they could do that to so many of us for so long: because it was the central reason we joined the group in the first place.
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Ham
True. But I think if we saw what the finished product was going to look like, few of of us would have chosen to submit.
Personally, I didn't need change, I needed help.
Honestlly, I didn't get the kind of "help" I really needed until I was out of der ministry.
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likeaneagle
Mr.H- I do need to apologize for my concious..what a statement to behold..
Another Spot- Hugs, I hear you loud and clear...
over and out
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another spot
Absolutely Highway, but I didn’t know it until recently. I remember when going witnessing, we were to “look for needs.” Seems innocuous enough. We were looking for people not satisfied with their current system for managing life. People who pretty much had it together weren’t typically interested in twi. Well I was one of them. Twi offered simple solutions with what I thought had God’s stamp of approval.
Cults are complicated. I was reading some more about it today. There is great disagreement amongst those in religion, sociology, and psychology on every aspect of the cult experience. I don't know if GS'rs will figure it out in total. I think each day we get a little closer to answering the question, "what happened, and why?" Answering that question helps answer the question "who am I? and why?" Then go back to the beginning and address the issues that led us to want to be taught in the first place.
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another spot
Mr. Hammeroni: Ain't that the truth!
likeaneagle: Hugs back!
Well, 60 days in GS and I've gone from thinking vpw was flawed but not that bad, twi was more good than bad under him, Martinfail ruined it, to my post above. I can tell you quite honestly, it wasn't a quick or easy transition, and a part of my mind fought it constantly. All the while, asking myself, "am I thinking evil?" And then, just a few days ago the pieces fell into place and then I understood.
A lot of folks said things quite helpful, although I didn't comment on your posts because most of the time I was pondering, pondering.
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likeaneagle
Another Spot- I remember a few years ago someone referenced the posering and pondering, more like a wash machine agitating the dirt out....
lol...it getsso annoying and complicating..Its been 5 yrs and there isnt a day that goes by where I think of something that pertains to twi...
does it stop TB? I dont think so...But somehow it becoming more distant..
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another spot
This "therefore no condemnation" thing makes my skin crawl and I don't know why right now. I read it in context, and if you lump conscience in with the flesh, then it's saying you have no conscience or your conscience can't be trusted. To me that says you can't trust yourself to know the difference between right and wrong, and ignores what T-bone said. So the next step is no matter, no condemnation. Seems like another way to tune out right from wrong.
Perhaps the way it works is the conscience is a part of walking by the spirit because of "19 because (AL)that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. "
Well, I don't understand, so I'm not being too articulate.
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another spot
likeaneagle: I've been taking a crash course. I left 7 yrs ago and flat refused to think about any of it at all. Couldn't and wouldn't deal with it. But yeah, like a washing machine. The dirt keeps coming up and I am shocked I put my valuables in it. Then I can't believe I fell for it all. Especially the mog part, most of all.
We have a water problem in my town. Somehow they can't get it together to provide drinkable water. Between Jan and Feb there was a boil water order out. I didn't find out until late Feb. I am a coffee drinker. The water looked ok. I never intended to drink bad water, I just wanted coffee.
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Listener
This thread has been an amazement to me!!!!! I came to GS because I heard from a friend, a couple months ago, that a TWI fellowship had come to town. I was surprised at my reaction....FEAR!!! It actually made me quiver. My hands visibly shook, and I began to sweat!! That reaction alarmed me. What the he!! was that about?!?!?! I was frightened by the mere thought of a twi6 being close by. That really shook me up bad!!! I stewed over it for several days.
Then, on a whim, I googled TWI and found GS...been here ever since. I read everything here like a man obsessed...articles, stickies, threads...the works! Some of the posts struck home, others made me angry, and others made me cry, but the more I read, the more I realized I HAD TO deal with this TWI infection in ways I had not imagined. My early posts were aimed squarely at vp, the monster. I had thought I was past that, but I wasn't...I had just buried that, and much more deep inside...and hearing about that fellowship brought it all back to the surface. And the more I remembered, the more crap I found lurking in the corners of my mind...that was the most frightening part!
I really believed I had re-examined my belief system sufficiently enough to get my head on straight...well, all I had done was the "feel good" part. I assuaged my pain just enough to get by, but no more. I hadn't addressed the deep seated problems that TWI had instilled in me.
Well, for many years after I left TWI I wouldn't even look at a bible, much less engage in any discussion, or thinking, about it. It brought up too many bad feelings and doubts. To make a long story short, about 5 years ago I began reading the bible again. I had never lost my love for God...it was just buried under all the hurt and doubt. I thought I was reconnecting to Him and re-examining my beliefs. And to a certain extent, I was. I had begun making decisions about how I led my life based on what I was reading in the bible...and those changes have become permanent through the years. I had been working on the simple, basic things...the great commandment, being humble, helping others before I helped myself, looking for the good in others, putting God first in my life, looking to Jesus Christ for guidance, praying for others to prosper while asking only for my needs, etc., etc. In His usual, subtle way, God was, little by little, guiding me back towards Him.
So, what does this rambling have to do with this thread? Well, I just realized that without my conscience being healed up, I would, ultimately, have fallen right back into waybrain thinking, or close to it. What I have just realized today is that what I had actually been doing was rebuilding my conscience...relearning how to distinguish between right and wrong, good and evil. I think that's why GS has made such an impact on my life...it's a whole community of people seeking truth and answers, helping each other to get to that truth and those answers. I immediately recognized that I needed to be involved here. I needed those same truths and answers.
All the postings here have made me think hard about my beliefs and their application...harder than I've ever thought before....and all this thinking is finally paying off...I'm learning vital insights into God's Word and His ways more and more every day...the pieces of the jigsaw really are comming together...and today, a big one dropped in place.
FROM THE DEPTHS OF MY HEART, THANKS GS COMMUNITY!
:eusa_clap: 
:eusa_clap:
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WordWolf
That's what we're here for, Listener.
(Despite the claims of some people who just show up and attack the posters.)
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Belle
(((((Listener)))))
So very many of us have written almost the exact same thing at one time or another.
It's so comforting to communicate with people about things we struggle with and think about who know where we're coming from, isn't it? To learn the truth about an organization that affected us in so many ways that people outside TWI would never be able to understand.
I remember when I first found WayDale how utterly shocked and appalled I was at the depths of corruption and evil I was oblivious to and had been hidden from me. It was like ice water being thrown on me to realize how duped I was and how unlike myself I had become in all my efforts to live up to and gain approval from wolves in sheep's clothing.
I don't think I slept a wink the first three or four months after finding WayDale and, as it all began to sink in and the initial paralyzing fear, dread and disgust dissipated a little, I was able to start putting things together, actually think somewhat rationally about the whole situation - and it's an overwhelming one to say the least, isn't it?
It does get better and it really helps to get it out - to think out loud - to challenge ideas, teachings, etc. I'm so glad you're here and you contribute just as much as you feel helped. :)
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rascal
AMEN!!!
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T-Bone
A second "amen" from me too! GSC is an amazing community – so many good things happen at so many levels through a simple give and take process that occurs here. Great folks here! Thanks for everyone's input on this thread – it's very healing to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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johniam
quote: While there is something about the training of our conscience [as MacArthur said – likening its function as more of a skylight than a light bulb – see my post #16] – there appears to be something innate – built into it by God – noting the phrase "that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them" in verse 19 of Romans 1.
Sure, God designed the human mind to hold and accomodate His word. Since you DID quote from Romans 1 then I should bring up the double standard about homosexuality. If it's plagiarism or adultery then oh yes "let your conscience be your guide" but if it's homosexuality, then who cares about a conscience. I think THAT is what Romans 1 is leading to, but that's a whole 'nother thread.
quote: This "therefore no condemnation" thing makes my skin crawl and I don't know why right now. I read it in context, and if you lump conscience in with the flesh, then it's saying you have no conscience or your conscience can't be trusted. To me that says you can't trust yourself to know the difference between right and wrong, and ignores what T-bone said. So the next step is no matter, no condemnation. Seems like another way to tune out right from wrong.
Perhaps the way it works is the conscience is a part of walking by the spirit because of "19 because (AL)that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. "
Well, I don't understand, so I'm not being too articulate.
OK, you want substance about not always trusting your own mind?
Prov 28:26 - He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool..
Prov 3:5 - Trust in the Lord with all thine heart, and lean not unto thine own understanding
John 5:30 - I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge and my judgement is just because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me
Romans 7:15 - For that which I do I allow not; for what I would, that do I not, but what I hate, that do I.
Romans 7:22,23 - For I delight in the law of God after the inward man. But I see another law in my members warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members
1 Cor 4:3 - But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you or of man's judgement: yea, I judge not mine own self
You're right, you don't understand.
requote: Perhaps the way it works is the conscience is a part of walking by the spirit because of "19 because (AL)that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. "
Oh, so Jesus Christ died in vain because man already had a spiritual connection with God by simply having a conscience? Christ's sacrifice wasn't necassary? God didn't love the world by giving His only begotten son? God was really a child abuser?
Like I said, I refuse to blow off the good news.
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rascal
....
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rascal
Agreed TBone, there is so much good to be found here on so many different fronts and levels....
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Ham
I think he who trusts in the OPINION of a half-baked grifter is perhaps a worse fate.
I'd rather be a fool.
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Listener
OK, I'm not a big scripture quoter, but here's the way this simple mind of mine sees this conscience stuff.
What is the point of God giving us the Word? To teach us His will? To tell us what He wants us to do? To explain the future, at least in part? To inform us of who our forefathers were and what they accomplished? Yeah, all that...but I think there's more to it.
Maybe it's even simpler than that. Could it be that it's His way of healing our senses oriented mind?...of teaching our mind's conscience to work properly?...to think the right kind of thoughts when making decisions in life? With all the crap vp did in twisting the Word to fit his lusts through TWI, and thus causing untold harm and havoc in the church of the Body (at least our small part of it), do I really think God wouldn't have covertly outflanked the evil one, knowing that false prophets and teachers would come along, and thus construct His Word to produce healing by the simple reading of it, despite the errant teachings of wackos? I think so. I think He heals us through our simple belief in what is plainly written...with all it's mistranslated words, translational errors, additions, and what-have-you. The simple belief in what we individually can understand of the Word will heal our minds and make us more and more able to think like Christ thought.
Now, throw a bunch of us yahoos together to share with each other what we've learned, causing more personal reading time to check things out, and you've got the Word spreading like crazy. Sure is exciting to me!!
I'm still processing a flood of thoughts this thread caused. So, maybe I'm just reiterating what many already know, and I know I'm not being as articulate as I want to be. And I'm not denigrating teaching the Word, just thinking that maybe a pulpit is not the best place for it to happen.
Dunno, gotta go process more.
My heads spinning right now...whew!!
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Belle
Very good, Listener. I think it really just boils down to, "Love God and love your neighbor" - if you're doing that, then you're doing alright.
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