WOW! What a trend I have been reading here! How the leadership have been able to get away with so much is beyond me. I knew about robbing in the name of God but it was really for themselves. But porno? What a bunch of sick demented &*&^&^@#@*& perverts. I dont think I can't repeat or write what I think of them here. I thank God of you who left the TWI or who were forced had enought presence of mind to stay away from them and to come to this forum and tell the truth.
See, now Im confused..when we rekon the old man dead..what is dead..our rememberance of old ways, habits,behaviors,etc. THey all connect to the soul,right? Ive been reading that book,"THe Cry of the Soul'". It speaks of the inner man or soul is the part that reaches to God via our emotions..Just like in Psalms, its filled with emotion..I think Way of the 90's took it too a different level, all to bring obedience to a man(LCM) had to control during his battle with CG...I dont know it is still connecting..
...Sure, God designed the human mind to hold and accomodate His word.Since you DID quote from Romans 1 then I should bring up the double standard about homosexuality. If it's plagiarism or adultery then oh yes "let your conscience be your guide" but if it's homosexuality, then who cares about a conscience. I think THAT is what Romans 1 is leading to, but that's a whole 'nother thread...
...Perhaps the way it works is the conscience is a part of walking by the spirit because of "19 because (AL)that which is known about
...Oh, so Jesus Christ died in vain because man already had a spiritual connection with God by simply having a conscience? Christ's sacrifice wasn't necassary? God didn't love the world by giving His only begotten son? God was really a child abuser?
Like I said, I refuse to blow off the good news.
Romans 1:18-32 NASB
18For (AJ)the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who (AK)suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because (AL)that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For (AM)since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, (AN)being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21For even though they knew God, they did not [c]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became (AO)futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
23and (AQ)exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and [d]crawling creatures.
24Therefore (AR)God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be (AS)dishonored among them.
25For they exchanged the truth of God for a (AT)lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, (AU)who is blessed forever. Amen.
26For this reason (AV)God gave them over to (AW)degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, (AX)men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, (AY)God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are (AZ)gossips,
30slanderers, (BA)haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, (BB)disobedient to parents,
32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of (BD)death, they not only do the same, but also (BE)give hearty approval to those who practice them.
I would like someone to show me where in it says in the Bible God designed the mind to hold the Word. Although the phrase does have a nice TWI-ring to it – a very important sales pitch for their point of view. It is an assumption – and doesn't carry much weight with me. As my assumption probably doesn't mean that much to you – it's my belief there's an aspect of the human mind that bears a likeness to our Creator.
The above passage tells me that since the beginning, God's invisible attributes, power and nature are evident in the physical world [verse 20] and the cerebral world [verse 19]. And even though we are a fallen race living in a cursed world – this corruption has not wiped out God's signature on His artwork – and for that very reason "they are without excuse" [verse 20].
Rather than going around the world in 80 posts to list the things in the physical world that attest to our Creator's existence and nature – let's think about the attributes and immaterial nature of people. I would like to revise my statement in post # 30 "The witness of the created universe and the internal witness – man's conscience" to also include other attributes of the immaterial part of man.
If there is indeed cerebral evidence that bears God's signature – what would it be? It would be universal and still exist – for the Bible to state all are without excuse. What things would be common between the Creator and all humans – who are made in His likeness? I happen to think the things that qualify us as human are the very things that make us like God: we have the capacity to love, to forgive, to invent, to reflect, to have abstract thought, that we have a desire to be fair, to do the right thing, and have compassion towards someone less fortunate than ourselves.
Perhaps when our conscience is smitten and we feel shame or regret it's from intuitively knowing we have fallen short of what we know we can or should do. Maybe that's along the lines of verse 18 "all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who)suppress the truth in unrighteousness" and verse 32 "although they know the ordinance of God" – is it a thing of suppressing what we know to be true? Ignoring our conscience?
I think you're missing the point of Romans 1 - this section of Scripture addresses something more important than TWI's homophobic focus on verses 26, 27. It looks to me like what really drew God's wrath was something so unthinkable. That the creature would say to the Creator – "I don't need you! I don't want you. I'd rather worship and serve myself." Possibly the "lie" it refers to in verse 25 is similar to the lie of the Serpent in Genesis 3 – "you'll be just like God."…Which is kind of weird – they were sort of like God to begin with – created in His image and likeness. Isn't that just like the devil – why he'd sell you the shirt off your own back [said in my best televangelist voice]. And fallen man indeed served himself – ruled by passions, drawn into self-destructive behavior, sin just overpowering the true self, the image of God sinking in a cesspool.
TWI is not interested in the true self. They're into molding people into a super race – with powers and abilities that elevate them above us mere mortals. "The flesh is of no consequence. I'm so spiritual – I can handle anything. I've so renewed my mind – that's not sin to me. Can't trust my own thoughts. Your conscience bothering you? You just haven't renewed your mind."
...Sure, God designed the human mind to hold and accomodate His word... .
I would like someone to show me where in it says in the Bible God designed the mind to hold the Word. Although the phrase does have a nice TWI-ring to it – a very important sales pitch for their point of view. It is an assumption – and doesn't carry much weight with me. As my assumption probably doesn't mean that much to you – it's my belief there's an aspect of the human mind that bears a likeness to our Creator.
"
Very good, Listener. I think it really just boils down to, "Love God and love your neighbor" - if you're doing that, then you're doing alright.
My research staff [which is just me re-reading this thread and having Belle's post knock me over like a ton of bricks] has recommended I revise my response to Johniam's statement. I think Jesus already addressed this issue - our minds were designed to love God and neighbor. Thank you, Belle.
Matthew 22:35-40 NASB
35 One of them, [a](AB)a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him,
36"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
37And He said to him, " '(AC)YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38"This is the great and foremost commandment.
39"The second is like it, '(AD)YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
40"(AE)On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."
T-Bone, some questions.....what, exactly are the biblical differentiations between heart, soul and mind? And how do we love with them? Is heart actually what we are calling the conscience? (this stuff is getting deeper by the minute! :mellow: ) This would seem to be a very pivotal issue here.
We always said that we were designed to love God and have Holy Spirit...
But we spent most of our time rejecting that idea. All those self doubts. All those face meltings because the "flowers weren't on the altar just so." Well, they weren't flowers - they were chairs. And they weren't on an altar, they had to be strung in a perfect line.
And the mints had to be on the lecturn (next to the alcoholic drink of the MOG's choice.)
It all went to undermine "Love God and your neighbor as yourself." We didn't love ourselves. We hated ourselves because we were weak and had unrenewed minds. We didn't love our neighbors because they were either unbelievers or off the Word. We certainly couldn't love God because he wouldn't have us..........
See, now Im confused..when we rekon the old man dead..what is dead..our rememberance of old ways, habits,behaviors,etc. THey all connect to the soul,right? Ive been reading that book,"THe Cry of the Soul'". It speaks of the inner man or soul is the part that reaches to God via our emotions..Just like in Psalms, its filled with emotion..I think Way of the 90's took it too a different level, all to bring obedience to a man(LCM) had to control during his battle with CG...I dont know it is still connecting..
The old man is dead, long live the old man..
these "men" are nothing.
We begged.. we desired.. we.. bargained.. we competed.. we longed for this existence.
and, once we had it, we tried to figure a way out of it.
an escape.
sorry, that is as poetic as I can "wax" at the moment..
True. But I think if we saw what the finished product was going to look like, few of of us would have chosen to submit.
Personally, I didn't need change, I needed help.
Honestlly, I didn't get the kind of "help" I really needed until I was out of der ministry.
I needed both change and help and I was fortunate enough to have a BC who supplied me with both. I am sorry that the only things that you received from PFAL were some minor head-knowledge things about figures of speech, etc; but what that indicates to me is that you really missed the point of PFAL because I really believe that taking PFAL saved my life on at least two separate occasions (the first time I took it and another time when my life was falling apart). As I have said before in other places I think there were a lot of people who took PFAL only for the knowledge involved instead of from any heart-felt desire to know God, and knowing God was the real point of PFAL.
I don't believe the doctrine of no condemnation or exposure to the Word dulled my 'conscience', in my experience it sharpened it. I became more and more aware of mistakes that I was making over the years but I learned to deal with them in a Godly manner by apologising to God (and other people if appropriate) immediately and then moving on without obsessing about the mistake (whatever it was) but also making every effort to avoid making the same mistake in the future. I never bought into (or was taught by my leadership) the attitude that anything I did was okay because I was righteous and therefore I didn't really commit sin or do anything wrong. However, condemning my self was just adding another sin to the one I had already committed. But, as I have said before, I was privileged to be around some very good men and women of integrity whose only interest was in doing the Word and loving people. I regret that not all of you shared my experience.
My research staff [which is just me re-reading this thread and having Belle's post knock me over like a ton of bricks] has recommended I revise my response to Johniam's statement. I think Jesus already addressed this issue - our minds were designed to love God and neighbor. Thank you, Belle.
Well, at the time that God designed the mind of man the whole Word of God consisted of Genesis 1:28-30 and Genesis 2:16-18.
Gen. 1:28-30- And God blessed them; and God said unto them, "Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." And God said "Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and every fowl of the air,l and every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat", and it was so.
Gen. 2:16-18- And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden, thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." And the Lord God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone: I will make him a help meet for him."
Loving God was probably pretty automatic and man didn't have any neighbors to love at that time.
Well, at the time that God designed the mind of man the whole Word of God consisted of Genesis 1:28-30 and Genesis 2:16-18....
...And the Lord God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone: I will make him a help meet for him."
Loving God was probably pretty automatic and man didn't have any neighbors to love at that time.
Adam and Eve had each other to love...And Word Wolf made me think of something as far as time line in the creation of man - I tend to think God put some forethought into the design - perhaps before Genesis 1:28.
T-Bone, some questions.....what, exactly are the biblical differentiations between heart, soul and mind? And how do we love with them? Is heart actually what we are calling the conscience? (this stuff is getting deeper by the minute! :mellow: ) This would seem to be a very pivotal issue here.
P.S. I've got the neighbor part nailed. :D
Yeah - I've got the same questions - I dunno...but I've been thinking about it more since I read your post...gonna let that percolate awhile...browse through some commentaries and systematic theology books...er...uhm...probably come back more confused .
quote: If there is indeed cerebral evidence that bears God's signature – what would it be? It would be universal and still exist – for the Bible to state all are without excuse. What things would be common between the Creator and all humans – who are made in His likeness? I happen to think the things that qualify us as human are the very things that make us like God: we have the capacity to love, to forgive, to invent, to reflect, to have abstract thought, that we have a desire to be fair, to do the right thing, and have compassion towards someone less fortunate than ourselves.
Perhaps when our conscience is smitten and we feel shame or regret it's from intuitively knowing we have fallen short of what we know we can or should do. Maybe that's along the lines of verse 18 "all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who)suppress the truth in unrighteousness" and verse 32 "although they know the ordinance of God" – is it a thing of suppressing what we know to be true? Ignoring our conscience?
Yes, either side could go around the world on this (and we sure do) but...Rom 7:18 - for I know that in me (that is in my flesh) dwelleth NO good thing, and...Eph. 2:1 - and you hath he quickened who were DEAD in tresspasses and sins.
Dead means dead and no means no. There is no part of our flesh that precludes the need for Jesus Christ's finished work.
quote: Very good, Listener. I think it really just boils down to, "Love God and love your neighbor" - if you're doing that, then you're doing alright.
Loving God includes loving His word which means you have to deal with doctrine. No act of love Jesus ever did (or us) did not have doctrine behind it (John 7:16 - ...my doctrine is not mine, but His that sent me) so any so called love for God and neighbor that doesn't include specific doctrine is flawed.
quote: Yeah - I've got the same questions - I dunno...but I've been thinking about it more since I read your post...gonna let that percolate awhile...browse through some commentaries and systematic theology books...er...uhm...probably come back more confused
No offence, but this is what I meant about second guessing every spiritual decision. Sure, it's good to think about what is put before you, but God doesn't want us ignorant about stuff. Sound doctrine prevents this confusion.
So, you don't believe the doctrines of vpw and Bullinger that God wrote His Word in
the stars?
If so, all the themes were already written,
whether or not Man had been TOLD their contents.
I also missed the complete relevance of Adam and Eve to this thread, please clarify.
Yes, I believe that God wrote His Word in the stars, but it seems to me that at what point He did so is open to question. There is logical backing for both points of view IMHO, because at that point in time man had the option of not sinning, which would have made Christ's first coming unmecessary; on the other hand God probably knew that man was going to blow it, so could have foretold Christ's first coming in the stars. However ALL the themes had not been written in the stars; the mystery, which was kept secret from the beginning of time, was not written in the stars ever.
Someone said that the mind of man was designed to love God and his neighbor, and I was pointing out that at the time the mind of man was designed, he had no neighbor to love (not even Eve, if you read carefully. Sorry, T-Bone).
Yes, I believe that God wrote His Word in the stars, but it seems to me that at what point He did so is open to question. There is logical backing for both points of view IMHO, because at that point in time man had the option of not sinning, which would have made Christ's first coming unmecessary; on the other hand God probably knew that man was going to blow it, so could have foretold Christ's first coming in the stars. However ALL the themes had not been written in the stars; the mystery, which was kept secret from the beginning of time, was not written in the stars ever.
With that one very notable exception, the other themes, according to vpw and Bullinger both,
are all written in the stars.
The idea that the stars were placed by God precisely where He wanted them
(and I dare you to say He did otherwise),
and then later He ascribed meaning to the constellations already in place,
or reshuffled the stars into new constellations,
to me smacks of trying very hard to defend odd theologies while trying to justify verses that
contradict it. (That includes theologies that limit God's knowledge.)
Someone said that the mind of man was designed to love God and his neighbor, and I was pointing out that at the time the mind of man was designed, he had no neighbor to love (not even Eve, if you read carefully. Sorry, T-Bone).
Which changes the design HOW?
God designed for what He thought would be good, including what He thought would be needed.
Since He's All-Knowing, I trust Him to design for things that didn't exist yet.
This idea that the only 2 possible positions are
1) trust your conscience 100% and ignore logic
and
2) ignore your conscience and trust only logic
is a False Dilemma.
The truth of the matter is that the conscience is a warning indicator, to point out dangers and pitfalls.
Can the conscience mis-identify? Sure. That's why you add THINKING to the system.
Not adding thinking is just plain silly.
DISMISSING the conscience and only going by logic- and, to be honest, external arguments-
is to deny one warning system that alerts even when a threat hasn't been fully articulated.
Without it, you're prey to any convincing-sounding argument.
I've been reviewing a few threads lately and usually the same thought crosses my mind at some point while reading – how much my conscience was anesthetized while in TWI. Sometimes that thought leads me into analyzing the delivery system and the drug that quiets this inner voice. The delivery system is their modeling of "Christian living" by TWI leadership and the sedative to the still small voice is of course TWI's interpretation of the Bible.
I vaguely remember [it's been so long ago] taking the Christian Family and Sex class in my early twenties. That's where I can pinpoint for me VPW showcasing his insidious version of Christian freedom. Watching VPW standing in front of photographs of couples having intercourse saying he's so renewed his mind that he just sees the beauty of that act – or something to that effect. And really – whatever he covered [or uncovered] in that class – be it slang terms, how to do "it", etc. – it was all in such a matter-of-fact casual manner – and my take on it then was, "Wow, he's so cool…A person can renew their mind and not sin in any situation." I can just picture a dad at home yelling "has anyone seen my latest issue of Playboy?" His son's voice answering back through the bathroom door "I'll have it back to you in a few minutes, Dad – I'm almost done renewing my mind."
Fast forward to being in the Family Corps in my early thirties. Sitting in a pajama party – VPW the master of ceremonies showing off his famous doggie porn video, and calling a sixteen year old girl up front to show her a porn pen. The most disturbing aspect of this memory to me now is that no alarms were going off in my head at the time of this incident...
"
Before I started this thread – it has bugged me why my mind would keep going back to the pajama party incident – and really I never thought about it - until coming to Grease Spot this year. It's not like I was traumatized by the incident. I think for me it has become THE defining moment of the devilish influence that emanated from VPW.
It was a teacher/student setting – with me idolizing his every move all out of proportion. I firmly believed he could do no wrong. Whether he realized it or not – his true self came through – loud and clear. This happened in the Way Corps – the training center for his most dedicated followers! It's just another teaching opportunity – a subliminal one – the "master" is modeling how to be so spiritual, so mature – that he can do anything and not sin – "it's nothing more than watching porn with a sixteen year old girl." ..."
I needI was fortunate enough to have a BC who supplied me with both. I am sorry that the only things that you received from PFAL were some minor head-knowledge ed both change and help and things about figures of speech, etc; but what that indicates to me is that you really missed the point of PFAL because I really believe that taking PFAL saved my life on at least two separate occasions (the first time I took it and another time when my life was falling apart). As I have said before in other places I think there were a lot of people who took PFAL only for the knowledge involved instead of from any heart-felt desire to know God, and knowing God was the real point of PFAL.
I don't believe the doctrine of no condemnation or exposure to the Word dulled my 'conscience', in my experience it sharpened it. I became more and more aware of mistakes that I was making over the years but I learned to deal with them in a Godly manner by apologising to God (and other people if appropriate) immediately and then moving on without obsessing about the mistake (whatever it was) but also making every effort to avoid making the same mistake in the future. I never bought into (or was taught by my leadership) the attitude that anything I did was okay because I was righteous and therefore I didn't really commit sin or do anything wrong. However, condemning my self was just adding another sin to the one I had already committed. But, as I have said before, I was privileged to be around some very good men and women of integrity whose only interest was in doing the Word and loving people. I regret that not all of you shared my experience.
I have no problem with what you said – and I really appreciate your post! Because I have realize another dynamic that is at play when I analyze TWI doctrine. Part of the delivery system is the way they model "The Word." This is a big deal according to Jesus. The following passages show that even IF the teacher has "The Word", "the rightly-divided Word"…or for those Christians that speak English "The Bible" – and he does not practice what he preaches - [or for you TWI folks "walk the talk"] there is a big problem with that teacher – and I don't think they should be teaching!
Matthew 23:1-3 NASB
1(A)Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples,
2 saying: "(B)The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;
3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.
Matthew 5:17-20 NASB
17"Do not think that I came to abolish the (V)Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18"For truly I say to you, (W)until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least (X)in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20"For I say to you that unless your (Y)righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
That is my whole point in post # 1 and 16. We don't have to get into the myriad of erroneous "textbook" doctrines of TWI. And really - even if PFAL was 100 % "rightly-divided Word" [or 100 % Bible truth for you English speaking Christians out there] the REAL harm comes in how it is applied [as Jesus pointed out]. VPW does not model the Bible in PFAL – he "teaches" from it. When you get to see him "backstage" [like Way Corps or Staff] you get to see him model "the Word" – as I related with the pajama party/porn video incident.
Your experience is valid – so is mine. From what you said I take it you had some leadership that modeled more of the true Christian lifestyle than my favorite leader at the time, VPW. His influence – the way he modeled Christian living – that is what dulled the conscience of those that revered him.
What sickens me now though, is that I actually began to enjoy them. There was always a shock value to these events, and they were supposedly done to protect the Household and defeat the Devil. You leave these meetings thinking you've witnessed the adversary taking it in the teeth and God's will done. More yelling and reproof ment more of God's Word done. So I actually learned to enjoy them. (Just like a good teaching was simply based on how loud lcm yelled)
It wasn't just you Bolshevik. It was many. I took part in feeding that monster, LCM. I rmemeber someone being disappointed at a session of an ACS in 1995 or 1996 (the one at HQ) because LCM wasn't screaming. LCM liked "Shock and Awe". I think it was at that same ACS that he got up on stage to yell about some guy who had dripped oil from his car all the way from Founders Hall on to Wierwille Road after they had the roads resealed to look nice. Why did that big foreheaded idiot thing he had to share that with us? What did it get us? I felt so sorry for that guy. It's not like he did it intentionally. But he was deemed a spiritual weakling because he didn't look in his rear view mirror.
“The truth of the matter is that the conscience is a warning indicator, to point out dangers and pitfalls. Can the conscience mis-identify? Sure. That's why you add THINKING to the system. Not adding thinking is just plain silly.
DISMISSING the conscience and only going by logic- and, to be honest, external arguments-is to deny one warning system that alerts even when a threat hasn't been fully articulated. Without it, you're prey to any convincing-sounding argument.”
That’s right.
When my conscience bothers me, I feel guilty. There is an emotional response to my own conduct or motives. That is the internal guidance system if you will. If we go with the hypothesis that conscience is innate and something we are born with, then we can move on.
I don’t feel guilty when I eat ham. Those whose religion forbids it, do. So, conscience is affected by beliefs. Beliefs are acquired through education. When someone agrees to and accepts that education as a belief, it is because he or she has used reasoning (or thinking), and decided this new information is right or wrong.
Reason can be at variance with conscience. This is where our consciences got “sedated.” We let reason override conscience. In time, our consciences became somewhat changed.
Twi changed the essence of who we were, at least to a degree.
Here’s a weird thought: what would the world be like if no one had a conscience?
The truth of the matter is that the conscience is a warning indicator, to point out dangers and pitfalls.
Can the conscience mis-identify? Sure. That's why you add THINKING to the system.
Not adding thinking is just plain silly.
DISMISSING the conscience and only going by logic- and, to be honest, external arguments-
is to deny one warning system that alerts even when a threat hasn't been fully articulated.
Without it, you're prey to any convincing-sounding argument.
And, TWI expected us to dismiss the conscience. We weren't allowed to question teachings. Nobody had any debates about this stuff with vee pee or craig. It wasn't allowed. We couldn't even debate it, much less talk about other viewpoints with other folks in the organization.
This became more and more evident the longer one was involved. As a new person we were condescended to, talked down to and told that we just couldn't "see it yet" and to "hold it in abeyance" until we were "more mature" or had taken more classes, then we would be able to see it like they did. After a while, you just kind of realized that you were never going to get a straight answer on something you thought was wrong, forget the things you just didn't "feel right" about.
And don't even get me started on all the teachings that the emotions are evil and not to be trusted. That we are to control our emotions and to even ignore them. Emotions, feelings, intuitions, etc were to be thrown out the window. Trust only your logic and what the Bible says... well, what TWI says the Bible says and what TWI says to think and reason.
For so many of us our conscience would scream about something we felt wasn't right (and I don't mean just the teachings, either), but because we had become conditioned to just shut up and put up with it, we were conditioned to believe that the leadership were infallible - untouchable and knew more, knew better than we did, so we did what good waybots do, we LOGICALLY concluded that we just didn't have the whole picture. After a few years of TWI teachings there was so much put on the back burner that we weren't sure was right, but since everything builds on top of previous teachings, we eventually had to accept as correct, things that we didn't really prove to ourself was correct. We built subsequent beliefs on top of and intertwined with things that we hadn't even had a chance to logically conclude were right to begin with.
For example..... maybe God changed the whole configuration of the universe after Adam and Eve sinned .... maybe God didn't make man to love Him and love his neighbor after all. He just left that part out of the Bible. Yeah, that's it. All knowing, all powerful, ever present God with all his omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence just didn't count on that part of life. So, shut up and quit second-guessing what we were taught. <_<
Loving God includes loving His word which means you have to deal with doctrine. No act of love Jesus ever did (or us) did not have doctrine behind it (John 7:16 - ...my doctrine is not mine, but His that sent me) so any so called love for God and neighbor that doesn't include specific doctrine is flawed.
Who says? What's the main point behind every lesson in the Bible? It's love, is it not? What it is - what it isn't. If God talks about having the believing of children and being harmless as doves and if children delight his heart, then the only really crucial lesson in life is to love God with all our heart, soul and mind and to love your neighbor as yourself. That's so simple that even a child can do that and Jesus uses it in his teachings - you don't have to be a Bible scholar to love and you certainly don't have to be one for God to love you.
That's why Jesus said, "On these two commandments hang the whole Law and the Prophets." The rest is just head knowledge and reinforcing those two commandments.
No offence, but this is what I meant about second guessing every spiritual decision. Sure, it's good to think about what is put before you, but God doesn't want us ignorant about stuff. Sound doctrine prevents this confusion.
With that one very notable exception, the other themes, according to vpw and Bullinger both,
are all written in the stars.
The idea that the stars were placed by God precisely where He wanted them
(and I dare you to say He did otherwise),
and then later He ascribed meaning to the constellations already in place,
or reshuffled the stars into new constellations,
to me smacks of trying very hard to defend odd theologies while trying to justify verses that
contradict it. (That includes theologies that limit God's knowledge.)
Which changes the design HOW?
God designed for what He thought would be good, including what He thought would be needed.
Since He's All-Knowing, I trust Him to design for things that didn't exist yet.
This idea that the only 2 possible positions are
1) trust your conscience 100% and ignore logic
and
2) ignore your conscience and trust only logic
is a False Dilemma.
The truth of the matter is that the conscience is a warning indicator, to point out dangers and pitfalls.
Can the conscience mis-identify? Sure. That's why you add THINKING to the system.
Not adding thinking is just plain silly.
DISMISSING the conscience and only going by logic- and, to be honest, external arguments-
is to deny one warning system that alerts even when a threat hasn't been fully articulated.
Without it, you're prey to any convincing-sounding argument.
Obviously, according to Genesis, Adam and Eve had no 'conscience', no internal indicator of good and evil. At the time they were created, they knew only good. Where they blew it was because they failed to rely on the external instructions that Adam had been given by God, and Eve had been given by Adam. They had no internal 'warning system that alerts even when a threat hasn't been fully articulated'. That was the 'convincing-sounding argument' that the serpent used to deceive Eve; that by tasting the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil man would become as God and know the difference between good and evil, thus probably acquiring the 'conscience' everyone keeps talking about.
As far as what was written in the stars, and when God wrote it; I think it is entirely possible that God foresaw the need for a redeemer before man ever fell or was expelled from Eden, and wrote that in the stars at the time of Creation, because I believe that the way God sees time and history is entirely different than the way we human beings see it.
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waysider
You're misrepresenting, or, perhaps not understanding, the full scope of Wierwille's deception. Wierwille claimed to have taken his voluminous library to the dump and, instead, used the
Bolshevik
I think it was Himmler, kept a small book on his person, probably Mein Kampf. But he had to remind himself why he was doing what he was doing. (I'm searching for a source). I thought is was notewo
WordWolf
Hello. Your phrasing is somewhat awkward-unclear- here, so I will do my best to address what I THINK are your concerns. "I'M trying to figure out the profit here...the way internationals doctrin
nyunknown
WOW! What a trend I have been reading here! How the leadership have been able to get away with so much is beyond me. I knew about robbing in the name of God but it was really for themselves. But porno? What a bunch of sick demented &*&^&^@#@*& perverts. I dont think I can't repeat or write what I think of them here. I thank God of you who left the TWI or who were forced had enought presence of mind to stay away from them and to come to this forum and tell the truth.
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likeaneagle
See, now Im confused..when we rekon the old man dead..what is dead..our rememberance of old ways, habits,behaviors,etc. THey all connect to the soul,right? Ive been reading that book,"THe Cry of the Soul'". It speaks of the inner man or soul is the part that reaches to God via our emotions..Just like in Psalms, its filled with emotion..I think Way of the 90's took it too a different level, all to bring obedience to a man(LCM) had to control during his battle with CG...I dont know it is still connecting..
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waysider
Another Spot & Listener
The door swings both ways.
I have gained a lot of insight reading your posts.
Thanks
Waysider
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T-Bone
Romans 1:18-32 NASB
18For (AJ)the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who (AK)suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because (AL)that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For (AM)since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, (AN)being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21For even though they knew God, they did not [c]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became (AO)futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22(AP)Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23and (AQ)exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and [d]crawling creatures.
24Therefore (AR)God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be (AS)dishonored among them.
25For they exchanged the truth of God for a (AT)lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, (AU)who is blessed forever. Amen.
26For this reason (AV)God gave them over to (AW)degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, (AX)men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, (AY)God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are (AZ)gossips,
30slanderers, (BA)haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, (BB)disobedient to parents,
31without understanding, untrustworthy, (BC)unloving, unmerciful;
32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of (BD)death, they not only do the same, but also (BE)give hearty approval to those who practice them.
I would like someone to show me where in it says in the Bible God designed the mind to hold the Word. Although the phrase does have a nice TWI-ring to it – a very important sales pitch for their point of view. It is an assumption – and doesn't carry much weight with me. As my assumption probably doesn't mean that much to you – it's my belief there's an aspect of the human mind that bears a likeness to our Creator.
The above passage tells me that since the beginning, God's invisible attributes, power and nature are evident in the physical world [verse 20] and the cerebral world [verse 19]. And even though we are a fallen race living in a cursed world – this corruption has not wiped out God's signature on His artwork – and for that very reason "they are without excuse" [verse 20].
Rather than going around the world in 80 posts to list the things in the physical world that attest to our Creator's existence and nature – let's think about the attributes and immaterial nature of people. I would like to revise my statement in post # 30 "The witness of the created universe and the internal witness – man's conscience" to also include other attributes of the immaterial part of man.
If there is indeed cerebral evidence that bears God's signature – what would it be? It would be universal and still exist – for the Bible to state all are without excuse. What things would be common between the Creator and all humans – who are made in His likeness? I happen to think the things that qualify us as human are the very things that make us like God: we have the capacity to love, to forgive, to invent, to reflect, to have abstract thought, that we have a desire to be fair, to do the right thing, and have compassion towards someone less fortunate than ourselves.
Perhaps when our conscience is smitten and we feel shame or regret it's from intuitively knowing we have fallen short of what we know we can or should do. Maybe that's along the lines of verse 18 "all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who)suppress the truth in unrighteousness" and verse 32 "although they know the ordinance of God" – is it a thing of suppressing what we know to be true? Ignoring our conscience?
I think you're missing the point of Romans 1 - this section of Scripture addresses something more important than TWI's homophobic focus on verses 26, 27. It looks to me like what really drew God's wrath was something so unthinkable. That the creature would say to the Creator – "I don't need you! I don't want you. I'd rather worship and serve myself." Possibly the "lie" it refers to in verse 25 is similar to the lie of the Serpent in Genesis 3 – "you'll be just like God."…Which is kind of weird – they were sort of like God to begin with – created in His image and likeness. Isn't that just like the devil – why he'd sell you the shirt off your own back [said in my best televangelist voice]. And fallen man indeed served himself – ruled by passions, drawn into self-destructive behavior, sin just overpowering the true self, the image of God sinking in a cesspool.
TWI is not interested in the true self. They're into molding people into a super race – with powers and abilities that elevate them above us mere mortals. "The flesh is of no consequence. I'm so spiritual – I can handle anything. I've so renewed my mind – that's not sin to me. Can't trust my own thoughts. Your conscience bothering you? You just haven't renewed your mind."
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T-Bone
My research staff [which is just me re-reading this thread and having Belle's post knock me over like a ton of bricks] has recommended I revise my response to Johniam's statement. I think Jesus already addressed this issue - our minds were designed to love God and neighbor. Thank you, Belle.
Matthew 22:35-40 NASB
35 One of them, [a](AB)a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him,
36"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
37And He said to him, " '(AC)YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38"This is the great and foremost commandment.
39"The second is like it, '(AD)YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
40"(AE)On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."
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Listener
T-Bone, some questions.....what, exactly are the biblical differentiations between heart, soul and mind? And how do we love with them? Is heart actually what we are calling the conscience? (this stuff is getting deeper by the minute! :mellow: ) This would seem to be a very pivotal issue here.
P.S. I've got the neighbor part nailed. :D
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doojable
Ya know.......
We always said that we were designed to love God and have Holy Spirit...
But we spent most of our time rejecting that idea. All those self doubts. All those face meltings because the "flowers weren't on the altar just so." Well, they weren't flowers - they were chairs. And they weren't on an altar, they had to be strung in a perfect line.
And the mints had to be on the lecturn (next to the alcoholic drink of the MOG's choice.)
It all went to undermine "Love God and your neighbor as yourself." We didn't love ourselves. We hated ourselves because we were weak and had unrenewed minds. We didn't love our neighbors because they were either unbelievers or off the Word. We certainly couldn't love God because he wouldn't have us..........
What a dose of spiritual valium!
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Ham
The old man is dead, long live the old man..
these "men" are nothing.
We begged.. we desired.. we.. bargained.. we competed.. we longed for this existence.
and, once we had it, we tried to figure a way out of it.
an escape.
sorry, that is as poetic as I can "wax" at the moment..
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Jeaniam
I needed both change and help and I was fortunate enough to have a BC who supplied me with both. I am sorry that the only things that you received from PFAL were some minor head-knowledge things about figures of speech, etc; but what that indicates to me is that you really missed the point of PFAL because I really believe that taking PFAL saved my life on at least two separate occasions (the first time I took it and another time when my life was falling apart). As I have said before in other places I think there were a lot of people who took PFAL only for the knowledge involved instead of from any heart-felt desire to know God, and knowing God was the real point of PFAL.
I don't believe the doctrine of no condemnation or exposure to the Word dulled my 'conscience', in my experience it sharpened it. I became more and more aware of mistakes that I was making over the years but I learned to deal with them in a Godly manner by apologising to God (and other people if appropriate) immediately and then moving on without obsessing about the mistake (whatever it was) but also making every effort to avoid making the same mistake in the future. I never bought into (or was taught by my leadership) the attitude that anything I did was okay because I was righteous and therefore I didn't really commit sin or do anything wrong. However, condemning my self was just adding another sin to the one I had already committed. But, as I have said before, I was privileged to be around some very good men and women of integrity whose only interest was in doing the Word and loving people. I regret that not all of you shared my experience.
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Jeaniam
Well, at the time that God designed the mind of man the whole Word of God consisted of Genesis 1:28-30 and Genesis 2:16-18.
Gen. 1:28-30- And God blessed them; and God said unto them, "Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." And God said "Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. And to every beast of the earth, and every fowl of the air,l and every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat", and it was so.
Gen. 2:16-18- And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden, thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." And the Lord God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone: I will make him a help meet for him."
Loving God was probably pretty automatic and man didn't have any neighbors to love at that time.
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WordWolf
So, you don't believe the doctrines of vpw and Bullinger that God wrote His Word in
the stars?
If so, all the themes were already written,
whether or not Man had been TOLD their contents.
I also missed the complete relevance of Adam and Eve to this thread, please clarify.
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T-Bone
Adam and Eve had each other to love...And Word Wolf made me think of something as far as time line in the creation of man - I tend to think God put some forethought into the design - perhaps before Genesis 1:28.
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T-Bone
Yeah - I've got the same questions
- I dunno...but I've been thinking about it more since I read your post...gonna let that percolate awhile...browse through some commentaries and systematic theology books...er...uhm...probably come back more confused 
.
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johniam
quote: If there is indeed cerebral evidence that bears God's signature – what would it be? It would be universal and still exist – for the Bible to state all are without excuse. What things would be common between the Creator and all humans – who are made in His likeness? I happen to think the things that qualify us as human are the very things that make us like God: we have the capacity to love, to forgive, to invent, to reflect, to have abstract thought, that we have a desire to be fair, to do the right thing, and have compassion towards someone less fortunate than ourselves.
Perhaps when our conscience is smitten and we feel shame or regret it's from intuitively knowing we have fallen short of what we know we can or should do. Maybe that's along the lines of verse 18 "all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who)suppress the truth in unrighteousness" and verse 32 "although they know the ordinance of God" – is it a thing of suppressing what we know to be true? Ignoring our conscience?
Yes, either side could go around the world on this (and we sure do) but...Rom 7:18 - for I know that in me (that is in my flesh) dwelleth NO good thing, and...Eph. 2:1 - and you hath he quickened who were DEAD in tresspasses and sins.
Dead means dead and no means no. There is no part of our flesh that precludes the need for Jesus Christ's finished work.
quote: Very good, Listener. I think it really just boils down to, "Love God and love your neighbor" - if you're doing that, then you're doing alright.
Loving God includes loving His word which means you have to deal with doctrine. No act of love Jesus ever did (or us) did not have doctrine behind it (John 7:16 - ...my doctrine is not mine, but His that sent me) so any so called love for God and neighbor that doesn't include specific doctrine is flawed.
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johniam
quote: Yeah - I've got the same questions - I dunno...but I've been thinking about it more since I read your post...gonna let that percolate awhile...browse through some commentaries and systematic theology books...er...uhm...probably come back more confused
No offence, but this is what I meant about second guessing every spiritual decision. Sure, it's good to think about what is put before you, but God doesn't want us ignorant about stuff. Sound doctrine prevents this confusion.
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Jeaniam
Yes, I believe that God wrote His Word in the stars, but it seems to me that at what point He did so is open to question. There is logical backing for both points of view IMHO, because at that point in time man had the option of not sinning, which would have made Christ's first coming unmecessary; on the other hand God probably knew that man was going to blow it, so could have foretold Christ's first coming in the stars. However ALL the themes had not been written in the stars; the mystery, which was kept secret from the beginning of time, was not written in the stars ever.
Someone said that the mind of man was designed to love God and his neighbor, and I was pointing out that at the time the mind of man was designed, he had no neighbor to love (not even Eve, if you read carefully. Sorry, T-Bone).
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WordWolf
With that one very notable exception, the other themes, according to vpw and Bullinger both,
are all written in the stars.
The idea that the stars were placed by God precisely where He wanted them
(and I dare you to say He did otherwise),
and then later He ascribed meaning to the constellations already in place,
or reshuffled the stars into new constellations,
to me smacks of trying very hard to defend odd theologies while trying to justify verses that
contradict it. (That includes theologies that limit God's knowledge.)
Which changes the design HOW?
God designed for what He thought would be good, including what He thought would be needed.
Since He's All-Knowing, I trust Him to design for things that didn't exist yet.
This idea that the only 2 possible positions are
1) trust your conscience 100% and ignore logic
and
2) ignore your conscience and trust only logic
is a False Dilemma.
The truth of the matter is that the conscience is a warning indicator, to point out dangers and pitfalls.
Can the conscience mis-identify? Sure. That's why you add THINKING to the system.
Not adding thinking is just plain silly.
DISMISSING the conscience and only going by logic- and, to be honest, external arguments-
is to deny one warning system that alerts even when a threat hasn't been fully articulated.
Without it, you're prey to any convincing-sounding argument.
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T-Bone
I have no problem with what you said – and I really appreciate your post! Because I have realize another dynamic that is at play when I analyze TWI doctrine. Part of the delivery system is the way they model "The Word." This is a big deal according to Jesus. The following passages show that even IF the teacher has "The Word", "the rightly-divided Word"…or for those Christians that speak English "The Bible" – and he does not practice what he preaches - [or for you TWI folks "walk the talk"] there is a big problem with that teacher – and I don't think they should be teaching!
Matthew 23:1-3 NASB
1(A)Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples,
2 saying: "(B)The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;
3 therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.
Matthew 5:17-20 NASB
17"Do not think that I came to abolish the (V)Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18"For truly I say to you, (W)until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least (X)in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20"For I say to you that unless your (Y)righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
That is my whole point in post # 1 and 16. We don't have to get into the myriad of erroneous "textbook" doctrines of TWI. And really - even if PFAL was 100 % "rightly-divided Word" [or 100 % Bible truth for you English speaking Christians out there] the REAL harm comes in how it is applied [as Jesus pointed out]. VPW does not model the Bible in PFAL – he "teaches" from it. When you get to see him "backstage" [like Way Corps or Staff] you get to see him model "the Word" – as I related with the pajama party/porn video incident.
Your experience is valid – so is mine. From what you said I take it you had some leadership that modeled more of the true Christian lifestyle than my favorite leader at the time, VPW. His influence – the way he modeled Christian living – that is what dulled the conscience of those that revered him.
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Nottawayfer
It wasn't just you Bolshevik. It was many. I took part in feeding that monster, LCM. I rmemeber someone being disappointed at a session of an ACS in 1995 or 1996 (the one at HQ) because LCM wasn't screaming. LCM liked "Shock and Awe". I think it was at that same ACS that he got up on stage to yell about some guy who had dripped oil from his car all the way from Founders Hall on to Wierwille Road after they had the roads resealed to look nice. Why did that big foreheaded idiot thing he had to share that with us? What did it get us? I felt so sorry for that guy. It's not like he did it intentionally. But he was deemed a spiritual weakling because he didn't look in his rear view mirror.
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another spot
“The truth of the matter is that the conscience is a warning indicator, to point out dangers and pitfalls. Can the conscience mis-identify? Sure. That's why you add THINKING to the system. Not adding thinking is just plain silly.
DISMISSING the conscience and only going by logic- and, to be honest, external arguments-is to deny one warning system that alerts even when a threat hasn't been fully articulated. Without it, you're prey to any convincing-sounding argument.”
That’s right.
When my conscience bothers me, I feel guilty. There is an emotional response to my own conduct or motives. That is the internal guidance system if you will. If we go with the hypothesis that conscience is innate and something we are born with, then we can move on.
I don’t feel guilty when I eat ham. Those whose religion forbids it, do. So, conscience is affected by beliefs. Beliefs are acquired through education. When someone agrees to and accepts that education as a belief, it is because he or she has used reasoning (or thinking), and decided this new information is right or wrong.
Reason can be at variance with conscience. This is where our consciences got “sedated.” We let reason override conscience. In time, our consciences became somewhat changed.
Twi changed the essence of who we were, at least to a degree.
Here’s a weird thought: what would the world be like if no one had a conscience?
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Belle
And, TWI expected us to dismiss the conscience. We weren't allowed to question teachings. Nobody had any debates about this stuff with vee pee or craig. It wasn't allowed. We couldn't even debate it, much less talk about other viewpoints with other folks in the organization.
This became more and more evident the longer one was involved. As a new person we were condescended to, talked down to and told that we just couldn't "see it yet" and to "hold it in abeyance" until we were "more mature" or had taken more classes, then we would be able to see it like they did. After a while, you just kind of realized that you were never going to get a straight answer on something you thought was wrong, forget the things you just didn't "feel right" about.
And don't even get me started on all the teachings that the emotions are evil and not to be trusted. That we are to control our emotions and to even ignore them.
Emotions, feelings, intuitions, etc were to be thrown out the window. Trust only your logic and what the Bible says... well, what TWI says the Bible says and what TWI says to think and reason.
For so many of us our conscience would scream about something we felt wasn't right (and I don't mean just the teachings, either), but because we had become conditioned to just shut up and put up with it, we were conditioned to believe that the leadership were infallible - untouchable and knew more, knew better than we did, so we did what good waybots do, we LOGICALLY concluded that we just didn't have the whole picture. After a few years of TWI teachings there was so much put on the back burner that we weren't sure was right, but since everything builds on top of previous teachings, we eventually had to accept as correct, things that we didn't really prove to ourself was correct. We built subsequent beliefs on top of and intertwined with things that we hadn't even had a chance to logically conclude were right to begin with.
For example..... maybe God changed the whole configuration of the universe after Adam and Eve sinned .... maybe God didn't make man to love Him and love his neighbor after all.
He just left that part out of the Bible. Yeah, that's it. All knowing, all powerful, ever present God with all his omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence just didn't count on that part of life. So, shut up and quit second-guessing what we were taught. <_<
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Belle
Who says? What's the main point behind every lesson in the Bible? It's love, is it not? What it is - what it isn't. If God talks about having the believing of children and being harmless as doves and if children delight his heart, then the only really crucial lesson in life is to love God with all our heart, soul and mind and to love your neighbor as yourself. That's so simple that even a child can do that and Jesus uses it in his teachings - you don't have to be a Bible scholar to love and you certainly don't have to be one for God to love you.
That's why Jesus said, "On these two commandments hang the whole Law and the Prophets." The rest is just head knowledge and reinforcing those two commandments.
Don't argue with me. I didn't write the book. :P
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T-Bone
No offense - this makes no sense
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Jeaniam
Obviously, according to Genesis, Adam and Eve had no 'conscience', no internal indicator of good and evil. At the time they were created, they knew only good. Where they blew it was because they failed to rely on the external instructions that Adam had been given by God, and Eve had been given by Adam. They had no internal 'warning system that alerts even when a threat hasn't been fully articulated'. That was the 'convincing-sounding argument' that the serpent used to deceive Eve; that by tasting the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil man would become as God and know the difference between good and evil, thus probably acquiring the 'conscience' everyone keeps talking about.
As far as what was written in the stars, and when God wrote it; I think it is entirely possible that God foresaw the need for a redeemer before man ever fell or was expelled from Eden, and wrote that in the stars at the time of Creation, because I believe that the way God sees time and history is entirely different than the way we human beings see it.
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