So many times we shut off the warning system because we don't trust ourselves.
Catcup's article on "Destruction of Self" is a perfect example of what happend/happens in TWI and other situations when you see your inner warning signs as "the adversary".
Remember Craig teaching that the first front of the 'enemy' is yourself?
Going back to your Playboy analogy....
I have some "innie" friends that to this day, still have a stack of them in their bathroom for all to see.
They have had fellowship and teens in their home many times, and do not put them away.
I inquired about these many times, because I felt it offensive and just plain wrong to have around when company is there. (Ok, you want to have it in your bedroom between the two of you fine.....not that I agree with that for "other" reasons...................like desensitizing, lust of the flesh, comparing, its not real.......)
the look I got or excuse I got was "it doesn't bother us, God made us naked, and we shouldn't be making it a big deal......oh and 'we like the articles'"
(oh and these are some of the 'young' believers that are going to rescue the ministry btw)
the look I got or excuse I got was "it doesn't bother us, God made us naked, and we shouldn't be making it a big deal......oh and 'we like the articles'"
(oh and these are some of the 'young' believers that are going to rescue the ministry btw)
ya ok
Again from Einstein:
"You can't fix a problem with the same level of thinking that created it."
Yeah, they're out to save the mean-is-try...
--With the same weapons they used to gutstrip the previous generation.
They will simply use the same old excuses to desensitize and anesthetize the consciences of the next one, and history will repeat itself.
The following is from The Vanishing Conscience by John MacArthur, page 36:
"In 1984 an Avianca Airlines jet crashed in Spain. Investigators studying the accident made an eerie discovery. The black box cockpit recorders revealed that several minutes before impact a shrill, computer-synthesized voice from the plane's automatic warning system told the crew repeatedly in English, "Pull up! Pull up!"
The pilot, evidently thinking the system was malfunctioning snapped, "Shut up, Gringo!" and switched off the system. Minutes later the plane plowed into the side of a mountain. Everyone on board died.
When I saw the tragic story on the news shortly after it happened, it struck me as a perfect parable of the way modern people treat the warning messages of their consciences."
T-Bone - I see how the pilot didn't RECOGNIZE that voice as a warning! Maybe he had distrust, maybe it was in the wrong language.
So how much did TWI teach us the wrong language for our conscience? I see many things now. So many walls for the Spirit of Truth to fight through. So many cobwebs of distruction. Too many dang word studies....
Think of it - we took the Advanced class and some of us went into the Corps to hear that still small voice better - but what we got was a translation mix-up instead. We Got earplugs to that small voice so that it looked like us and not like God Almighty at all. So, with that kind of confusion we turned to our leaders to translate for us....
This is an interesting topic. Thank you for bringing it up T-Bone. I was only involved in TWI as a child, but still it has left a lasting effect on me since I continued to be raised with it's doctrines despite not being officially involved. As a result I am always confused now about what the true voice of God is. I have a never ending battle always going on in my head over decisions, even small things...I'm always analyzing if it's my desires or God's desires that are being decided upon. Now I'm trying to break free of it all and I feel like I'm betraying God at times. That still small voice shouldn't have to fight for its way out, should it? Makes me think that it was squelched and really all I'm arguing about in my head is two worse options then what God would like me to do in the first place. Who knows? I'm sure having a hard time learning how to decipher what truth really is, since I'm learning that I can't trust anybody anymore to tell me what it is.
and it is so right on.. who eles in this world would understand this?
I go to church and they say the word Lord and and "the Lord said this" in general conversation and I do not get it that is not a word the way used and then I turn them off.. IM numb they must think JC is God.. i am numb and pretend or walk away.
with the way it was always teachings and I only remember Jesus christ or God as terms we used to who we were talking about.
I cant even explain this .. but that is what happened.
almost a learned hate for all that was not what they taught. a dismissal of all .
I still struggle with this.
to dismiss oh that is wrong IM right. and the killer is why am I right becuase the word says so.
I believe we learned doubt.. in a big way not power.
Now, had Mr Wierwille exhibited this type of behavior to you in the very beginning, your alarms would have been loud and clear... I would imagine...
There was a conditioning that took place to have us SEDATED enough to blindly accept what came out of this guys filthy mind. Along with the sedation came self-un-worth... we wouldn’t be as good or knowledgeable as Wierwille was...
This conditioning didn't just happen, it was one LIE at a time, and TIME in between each one to get our MINDS ready to receive the NEXT LIE~
To the normal person, had his behavior been made public, it would have been clear that this Wierwille guy was a sex maniac, perverted, nasty, and freely stalking his young prey...
Bliss: “So many times we shut off the warning system because we don't trust ourselves.”… I’m glad you pointed that out. In thinking along the lines of MacArthur’s analogy of the plane’s automatic warning system I thought of a weird TWI perversion of it. We shut our eyes to what is really happening around us [ignore what our logic, sense of decency, conscience, etc. tell us] and go by the guidance from the Control Tower [TWI leadership interpreting the situation for us].
CatCup: "You can't fix a problem with the same level of thinking that created it…They will simply use the same old excuses to desensitize and anesthetize the consciences of the next one, and history will repeat itself.” …That is TRUE. Teaching by example is a powerful tool. In the Way Corps you have aspiring leaders absorbing not only teachings from the podium but how leadership handles situations. Instead of being taught what’s right and wrong [moral standards] they get the idea that anything done in the renewed mind, with the love of God, energized by the power of the Force from Star Wars will only bless people.
Doojable: “So how much did TWI teach us the wrong language for our conscience? I see many things now. So many walls for the Spirit of Truth to fight through. So many cobwebs of destruction. Too many dang word studies....
Think of it - we took the Advanced class and some of us went into the Corps to hear that still small voice better - but what we got was a translation mix-up instead.”… You’ve got that right!!!!!!!! We’re in the Disinformation Age courtesy of TWI!
Qtana: Welcome to Grease Spot, Qtana. “That still small voice shouldn't have to fight for its way out, should it?” That is a very powerful question!
Pond: You mentioned the numbness – I think that is a great description of how I “felt” in many situations [like the ones I mentioned in my first post] – and become doubters – as you put it. We experience something that is wrong, inappropriate, etc. but this “numbness” neutralizes our perception of it.
SafariVista: “To the normal person, had his behavior been made public, it would have been clear that this Wierwille guy was a sex maniac, perverted, nasty, and freely stalking his young prey...” …Wow – that’s a big point right there – and as you say – the conditioning process just blinded us…I would like to say – after coming to Grease Spot for a short while – reading about the sex scandals, rapes, molestations, etc. – did not sway my thinking – it validated my thinking! As I reminisce over my TWI experiences with an awakened mind and conscience I think how can any sane, decent person not see how devilishly evil this is? When I left TWI it was over intellectual reasons [seeing errors in their doctrines, practices, method of Bible interpretation, etc.] but since I’ve been coming to Grease Spot the moral issues by far outweigh all those.
Excathedra: “I had already made anesthetizing my mind an artform.”… but TWI has made it an Industry Standard!
I wonder how the lingering residual effects have spotted my thought processes. If some conditioning was deeply ingrained, it likely still redirects some thoughts as they meander through their neuronal pathways. Their subtlety makes them hard to recognize and root out. "Out, damn'd spot! out, I say!"
Quote from the book you sited: "...it struck me as a perfect parable of the way modern people treat the warning messages of their consciences."
(Gosh, this subject could go into quite a few tangents...deep and thought provoking.)
Bliss: “So many times we shut off the warning system because we don't trust ourselves.”… I’m glad you pointed that out. In thinking along the lines of MacArthur’s analogy of the plane’s automatic warning system I thought of a weird TWI perversion of it. We shut our eyes to what is really happening around us [ignore what our logic, sense of decency, conscience, etc. tell us] and go by the guidance from the Control Tower [TWI leadership interpreting the situation for us].
In light of this topic and something I've been reading about righteous and unrighteous anger, I thought of how unholy it is to simply dismiss the abuses that occurred/occur in TWI (and like organizations).
A quote from the book I've been reading (again and again): "The greater the injustice, the more anger we ought to feel. To read about (for example) a child paralyzed by a gang shooting and not feel anger is unholy."
I thought of this in light of when I found GSC (while still in TWI) and read about the injustices...I mocked these violations as overexaggerations, one-sided, etc. I didn't feel anger; and that was unholy. I was well trained by the control tower. :(
I wonder how the lingering residual effectshave spotted my thought processes. If some conditioning was deeply ingrained, it likely still redirects some thoughts as they meander through their neuronal pathways. Their subtlety makes them hard to recognize and root out. "Out, damn'd spot! out, I say!"
I know exactly what you mean, Rhino. Sometimes old mental habits become invisible - we don't realize they're there... I'm aware of something I do quite a bit now [years after being out of TWI] - I reflect on my day - usually at the end of the night before going to bed. It may just be for a minute or two. And it's not just reviewing some high point of the day - like some achievement at work. I also round up any "suspect thoughts" - or maybe it's not even something I would call an articulated thought...maybe a wrestling with something, some incident after the fact, maybe wondering if I was being upfront with someone at work, or maybe I didn't stand up for what I knew was the right thing in a situation....Anyway - I don't mean for it to sound like some big heavy or even unpleasant introspective session - it just me - I've gotten more into the PROCESS of thinking over the years....Which is a whole lot different than the way I used to operate while in TWI - I used to be real busy - always doing something, planning something, busy, busy, busy. Busy doing and not busy thinking...
"In light of this topic and something I've been reading about righteous and unrighteous anger, I thought of how unholy it is to simply dismiss the abuses that occurred/occur in TWI (and like organizations).
A quote from the book I've been reading (again and again): "The greater the injustice, the more anger we ought to feel. To read about (for example) a child paralyzed by a gang shooting and not feel anger is unholy."
I thought of this in light of when I found GSC (while still in TWI) and read about the injustices...I mocked these violations as over exaggerations, one-sided, etc. I didn't feel anger; and that was unholy. I was well trained by the control tower."
Bagpipes, I like your Righteous Anger thread! [Oh and I apologize to everyone – it feels like I'm commandeering my own thread – but everyone's posts have really got my old processor going! – now back to my preemptive rant… no wait …one more Station Identification…] I thought maybe I should post this on your Righteous Anger thread but I already posted something there – alright so I'm not good at staying on task – guess I'll have to pull out my "rambler's license" [got it myself at Bagpipes' Post-thru Service Desk - :) ] – and so throwing fear of derailment out the Windows XP I resume rambling about conscience and righteous anger.
One of the threads that has gotten me fired-up angry [and I mean the gosh-awful-I-hope-yah-don't-mind-Lord-if-I-overturn-a-few-tables-in-yah-temple-righteous-angry] is the Foolhardy Behavior thread, especially when dialogue got into the L.E.A.D. program, specifically hitching, and TWI's cavalier attitude [no wait – that's too soft] – flagrant disregard for the safety and security of people – and not just any old group of people – their most dedicated followers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've fantasized about time travel – or maybe it's more like a Quantum Leap episode – where I'm actually back in one of my TWI experiences – but I know then what I know now – and also have the nerve to stand up for my convictions – sort of a new and improved me displacing the wimpified spineless dullardesque core of my being…I can just imagine the re-make of the pajama party incident in my first post: We've just finished watching that sick doggie/women porn video, old Pervertwille is now showing that porn pen to the 16 year old girl. Suddenly I jump up while at the same time bellowing out some primordial roar that has amassed such force that I can no longer contain it. Of course all eyes are now upon me – but my eyes are locked in with his – I can hear Maverick's voice in my head "I've got tone, I've got tone!!!!!!!!!!" And then I slowly…deliberately…with all the emotion and drama of a thespian on steroids I say, "It is a disgrace for me to be here today. Why don't you just pack up all your perverted paraphernalia, Spanish Flies, Jedi mind-tricks – along with your lecherous weird-willie, get on your mobile-sacrificial-altar-for-sex-slaves [a.k.a. the Motor Coach] and get the heck out of Rome City."
I know that's kind of weird and strange thinking – but I actually do that sometimes – not to re-write any personal history, or re-interpret an experience to absolve myself of shame or guilt – but use it more as a self-corrective tool. My mom used to say "two wrongs don't make a right", [praise to mothers for passing on such great proverbs]. It's wrong to not get angry at the stuff VPW did! Putting my conscience on the back burner is wrong on my part! It is a sin of omission! I don't know - is there such a thing as hijacking someone's moral compass? Anyway – I'm not one to blame something like this on someone else. I turn that righteous anger on myself sometimes – as I realize how I was not vigilant in the care of my soul – and I let a thief inside…That anger hurts – yes a stinging motivation to change – but as you mentioned from that book on your Righteous Anger thread – in that righteous anger I also begin to see things from God's viewpoint – His creation at war with itself….I see it as a part of the healing process of my conscience.
Man I'm wondering if I will ever trust another church or group of people? So much teaching seems to push an agenda that is not God's TWI had some good points but they used those to destroy individuals and control them as they pushed their agenda. It has been six years out of the way and my life is soooooooooooooooo much better now and I have seen many blessing in my life I am thankful that I was delivered from that destructive ministry while I had some sanity left! but of course they certainly left a mark on my life as many others whom I can only pray they are healed in their hearts from the manipulation and dogmatic control & abuse of TWI
Can I join your quantum leap? With the recent string theory (whatever that is) we could swing right back in time!! Like Tarzan on a vine....weeeeeeeeeeee.
Before I started this thread – it has bugged me why my mind would keep going back to the pajama party incident – and really I never thought about it - until coming to Grease Spot this year. It's not like I was traumatized by the incident. I think for me it has become THE defining moment of the devilish influence that emanated from VPW.
It was a teacher/student setting – with me idolizing his every move all out of proportion. I firmly believed he could do no wrong. Whether he realized it or not – his true self came through – loud and clear. This happened in the Way Corps – the training center for his most dedicated followers! It's just another teaching opportunity – a subliminal one – the "master" is modeling how to be so spiritual, so mature – that he can do anything and not sin – "it's nothing more than watching porn with a sixteen year old girl."
Or what other demented reasoning would you like to use for justifying this incident? "I'm showing you this doggie/women porn video because it may help you in counseling someday." Oh yeah – good point - I forgot about all the thousands of people in the pornography industry I could help if I knew all the sordid details of their typical workday. And I think it would be a great challenge counseling a former porn-star canine.
From my Christian perspective, I like some of the points in The Vanishing Conscience by John MacArthur: Mental health is contingent, if not synonymous with, moral health. The conscience functions more like a skylight, not a light bulb. It lets light into the soul; it does not produce its own light. Its effectiveness is determined by the amount of light we expose to it, and how clean we keep it. Cover it or put it in darkness and it ceases to function. That is why the apostle Paul spoke of the importance of a clear conscience [I Timothy 3:9], and warned against anything that would defile or muddy the conscience [I Corinthians 8:12; Titus 1:15]. He warned of the dangers of a calloused conscience [I Corinthians 8:10], a wounded conscience [I Corinthians 8:12], and a seared conscience [I Timothy 4:2].
Some excerpts on "conscience" from The Tyndale Bible Dictionary by Walter Elwell and Philip Comfort:
"Although one's conscience is an inner witness to spiritual and moral truth, it cannot be regarded as the voice of God…No one has such a grasp on moral truth that his or her sinful nature may not overwhelm the conscience and render it unreliable…Both the English word "conscience" and the Greek word translated as "conscience" in the New Testament mean "to be with knowledge." In the Old Testament, Adam and Eve hid themselves from God in shame because their consciences passed moral judgment on their disobedience [Genesis 3:8-10]. All human beings normally have the power of moral judgment: "The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord, searching all his innermost parts" [Proverbs 20:27]. Conscience, then is a gift of God to provide light in matters of good and evil."
I went through the Way Corps program during the latter part of my TWI years. Yes, this sedative to the conscience was already coursing through my decision-making process but had not met any real catalyst of opportunity – for my wife and I left TWI during our practicum year – after Geer's power-play Patriarch fiasco.
What if we had stayed in? Considering my upbringing – a good Roman Catholic boy that feels guilty about everything – I don't think I would have become a major womanizer, thinking I was god on a stick – but I could have walked right into a temptation to be unfaithful. Maybe one day I'm counseling a woman – she's telling me she wishes her husband would be sweet to her like the way she's seen me at twig with my wife. She says she hasn't been intimate with her husband in years. She says she just needs God's love, a healing touch, to be loved by a spiritual man. She says she needs a hug – just a hug….I can easily see myself – running all these things through my mind of what to do to help – wanting to help – and then the seductive subliminal VPW training would activate – thoughts like: "Anything done out of love is okay. I think I'm spiritual enough I can handle anything – no fear – and I care about this believer enough – to meet her needs – whatever it takes."
This is an amazing thing to me. For something that can have such a powerful influence in dealing with memories, how we act at the moment or plan to act in the future – this inner voice can be "silenced" if we ignore it long enough. As I Timothy 4:2 points out – our conscience can become seared – cauterized – rendered insensitive by persisting in evil.
This thread has been mostly a self-help therapy for me. As I continue in this Christian life I become more concerned about the moral status of my heart. Dealing with the mental baggage of my TWI years is like trying to re-calibrate my moral guidance system – or maybe installing an anti-virus program in my heart...
Why did I start this thread? A few reasons…I don't have some secret sin to confess – but I have such a healthy respect for the devastating power of sin and think I may have dodged a deadly bullet by abandoning TWI's leadership training program. What kind of person would I have become continuing in that frame of mind?
Another reason is there are some who have left TWI and maybe still are not aware of the dark side of VPW. Perhaps there are Corps – still in TWI – who have never thought seriously about the subtle influence of leadership modeling such a morally corrupt version of Christianity. Consider I Thessalonians 1: 6 "You became imitators of us and of the Lord…" I think people have a natural tendency to imitate others. That's how we learn – until we make something our own.
The Old Testament reference to the "heart" included the idea of our conscience. Proverbs 4:23 "Watch over your heart with all diligence, for from it flow the springs of life."
Wow. As the sibling of a severely mentally ill brother who started manifesting signs of the illness as early as 8th grade all I can say to that is, huh?
Mental illness and immorality are not the same thing at all.
Wow. As the sibling of a severely mentally ill brother who started manifesting signs of the illness as early as 8th grade all I can say to that is, huh?
Mental illness and immorality are not the same thing at all.
I agree, Bramble. I don't think that's what MacArthur was saying - but I'm not here to explain or defend something he said. I didn't take it that he was putting immorality in the same category as mental illness. My take on it - like I said in my post - is from my Christian perspective. Proverbs 3:7,8 "Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord and turn away from evil. It will be healing to your body, and refreshment to your bones." I take those verses the same way. As a Christian, I believe my overall general health is somewhat linked to my moral health...I certainly don't lump moral depravity and mental illness together - that would absolve the wicked [the morally depraved] of any responsibility!...
Thanks for replying, Bramble - it's good to know somebody is reading my long posts!
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I remember as a boy and teenager and not too long ago watching people get reemed. Why is was ever important that I was there I don't know. I was present for marriages to be ripped apart, hearts torn, and people just being reduced to nothing. These things always came up unexpectedly. But it was all done beause of "The Word" or something.
I hadn't realized these events were wrong until recently. Every now and then I remember another incident and think "OMG". I'm thankful now that I recognize that those events were ungodly.
What sickens me now though, is that I actually began to enjoy them. There was always a shock value to these events, and they were supposedly done to protect the Household and defeat the Devil. You leave these meetings thinking you've witnessed the adversary taking it in the teeth and God's will done. More yelling and reproof ment more of God's Word done. So I actually learned to enjoy them. (Just like a good teaching was simply based on how loud lcm yelled)
My conscience was darkened. Thank God I see that now.
Man O Man-Aint it true..Maybe this is the reason my brain seems astray at times..its looking for something to void out (way speaking-conditioned) Post Twi- I feel my brain is way over active and then under active...what the hey??????
Well, after 20 plus replies there ought to be a voice of dissent.
VP taught, both in God's Magnified Word and in the Lifestyle of the believer, that man's conscience is his servant, not his master. And that is true.
But we have all been brainwashed to believe that we should "let our conscience be our guide" (Jiminy Cricket from Pinnochio) and also check out the gold fish in Dr. Seuss's The Cat in the Hat. That fish is the self appointed conscience of that story.
Conscience is moral awareness, true, but it's still based 100% on what we've been previously taught. It's our habit patterns. In that film The Prevailing Word VP said that children will never lie to you until the adults teach them how. One show I watched was 'Judging Amy'. It's your basic liberal socialist propaganda show like others, but Amy is a juvenile court judge who can be brutally honest when rendering a judgement for other peoples' kids, but in dealing with her own child, a teenage girl, she refuses to be honest. She won't even admit that she (Amy) used dope when she was a child and young adult, so of course, her daughter frequently lies to her about stuff and Amy can't put 2 and 2 together to save her life. If you teach kids either verbally or by example that it's OK to lie they'll pick up on it and their consciences won't bother them for doing it.
But like I said, a conscience is a man's servant, not his master. We all know the scripture about someone's conscience being seared with a hot iron. This person's habit pattern was to do the word, then they do something they know is off the word the first time and their conscience bothers them a lot, but the more they do it, the less their conscience bothers them until finally it doesn't bother them at all.
What about the reverse of that? Instead of having your conscience seared with a hot iron, how about having it "cleared with cool living water"? Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation. What exactly is this 'condemnation'? Judgement? Condemnation is more than just feeling a little pain once in awhile; it's part of the 'dead in tresspasses and sins' package we inherited from Adam. Our habit pattern, no matter what our background is, included much judgement and abuse based on the common expectation of death we all have, again inherited from Adam. So when someone says, "there is therefore now no condemnation", this is quite contrary to our habit pattern isn't it?
The first time you consider "no condemnation" your conscience literally bothers you: "No no, that can't be right. It's just too good to be true." But the more you consider that Christ paid for "no condemnation" and it's not dependent on your own works, the less it bothers you to think that "no condemnation" could actually be true, until finally, it doesn't bother you at all. THAT is renewed mind!
I don't speak for all, but I absolutely refuse to allow a group of self appointed prosecutors to blow off the good news of "no condemnation" just because VP was human. If your habit pattern is now to figure out every way possible that pfal was a scam, then you'll reap what you sew, and be second guessing every spiritual decision you ever make.
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You're misrepresenting, or, perhaps not understanding, the full scope of Wierwille's deception. Wierwille claimed to have taken his voluminous library to the dump and, instead, used the
Bolshevik
I think it was Himmler, kept a small book on his person, probably Mein Kampf. But he had to remind himself why he was doing what he was doing. (I'm searching for a source). I thought is was notewo
WordWolf
Hello. Your phrasing is somewhat awkward-unclear- here, so I will do my best to address what I THINK are your concerns. "I'M trying to figure out the profit here...the way internationals doctrin
bliss
You are so right T-Bone.
So many times we shut off the warning system because we don't trust ourselves.
Catcup's article on "Destruction of Self" is a perfect example of what happend/happens in TWI and other situations when you see your inner warning signs as "the adversary".
Remember Craig teaching that the first front of the 'enemy' is yourself?
Going back to your Playboy analogy....
I have some "innie" friends that to this day, still have a stack of them in their bathroom for all to see.
They have had fellowship and teens in their home many times, and do not put them away.
I inquired about these many times, because I felt it offensive and just plain wrong to have around when company is there. (Ok, you want to have it in your bedroom between the two of you fine.....not that I agree with that for "other" reasons...................like desensitizing, lust of the flesh, comparing, its not real.......)
the look I got or excuse I got was "it doesn't bother us, God made us naked, and we shouldn't be making it a big deal......oh and 'we like the articles'"
(oh and these are some of the 'young' believers that are going to rescue the ministry btw)
ya ok
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Catcup
Again from Einstein:
"You can't fix a problem with the same level of thinking that created it."
Yeah, they're out to save the mean-is-try...
--With the same weapons they used to gutstrip the previous generation.
They will simply use the same old excuses to desensitize and anesthetize the consciences of the next one, and history will repeat itself.
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doojable
T-Bone - I see how the pilot didn't RECOGNIZE that voice as a warning! Maybe he had distrust, maybe it was in the wrong language.
So how much did TWI teach us the wrong language for our conscience? I see many things now. So many walls for the Spirit of Truth to fight through. So many cobwebs of distruction. Too many dang word studies....
Think of it - we took the Advanced class and some of us went into the Corps to hear that still small voice better - but what we got was a translation mix-up instead. We Got earplugs to that small voice so that it looked like us and not like God Almighty at all. So, with that kind of confusion we turned to our leaders to translate for us....
Sigh.......God forgive us and help us.
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qtana
This is an interesting topic. Thank you for bringing it up T-Bone. I was only involved in TWI as a child, but still it has left a lasting effect on me since I continued to be raised with it's doctrines despite not being officially involved. As a result I am always confused now about what the true voice of God is. I have a never ending battle always going on in my head over decisions, even small things...I'm always analyzing if it's my desires or God's desires that are being decided upon. Now I'm trying to break free of it all and I feel like I'm betraying God at times. That still small voice shouldn't have to fight for its way out, should it? Makes me think that it was squelched and really all I'm arguing about in my head is two worse options then what God would like me to do in the first place. Who knows? I'm sure having a hard time learning how to decipher what truth really is, since I'm learning that I can't trust anybody anymore to tell me what it is.
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pond
what aa thread.
the numbness.
and it is so right on.. who eles in this world would understand this?
I go to church and they say the word Lord and and "the Lord said this" in general conversation and I do not get it that is not a word the way used and then I turn them off.. IM numb they must think JC is God.. i am numb and pretend or walk away.
with the way it was always teachings and I only remember Jesus christ or God as terms we used to who we were talking about.
I cant even explain this .. but that is what happened.
almost a learned hate for all that was not what they taught. a dismissal of all .
I still struggle with this.
to dismiss oh that is wrong IM right. and the killer is why am I right becuase the word says so.
I believe we learned doubt.. in a big way not power.
doubt others, doubt others and finaly doubt God.
what a thread
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SafariVista
Thought provoking T-Bone,
Now, had Mr Wierwille exhibited this type of behavior to you in the very beginning, your alarms would have been loud and clear... I would imagine...
There was a conditioning that took place to have us SEDATED enough to blindly accept what came out of this guys filthy mind. Along with the sedation came self-un-worth... we wouldn’t be as good or knowledgeable as Wierwille was...
This conditioning didn't just happen, it was one LIE at a time, and TIME in between each one to get our MINDS ready to receive the NEXT LIE~
To the normal person, had his behavior been made public, it would have been clear that this Wierwille guy was a sex maniac, perverted, nasty, and freely stalking his young prey...
gut-wrenching :(
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excathedra
i had already made anesthetizing my mind an artform :)
now i'm going to read this thread because it looks really eye-opening
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T-Bone
Thank you for all your input.
Bliss: “So many times we shut off the warning system because we don't trust ourselves.”… I’m glad you pointed that out. In thinking along the lines of MacArthur’s analogy of the plane’s automatic warning system I thought of a weird TWI perversion of it. We shut our eyes to what is really happening around us [ignore what our logic, sense of decency, conscience, etc. tell us] and go by the guidance from the Control Tower [TWI leadership interpreting the situation for us].
CatCup: "You can't fix a problem with the same level of thinking that created it…They will simply use the same old excuses to desensitize and anesthetize the consciences of the next one, and history will repeat itself.” …That is TRUE. Teaching by example is a powerful tool. In the Way Corps you have aspiring leaders absorbing not only teachings from the podium but how leadership handles situations. Instead of being taught what’s right and wrong [moral standards] they get the idea that anything done in the renewed mind, with the love of God, energized by the power of the Force from Star Wars will only bless people.
Doojable: “So how much did TWI teach us the wrong language for our conscience? I see many things now. So many walls for the Spirit of Truth to fight through. So many cobwebs of destruction. Too many dang word studies....
Think of it - we took the Advanced class and some of us went into the Corps to hear that still small voice better - but what we got was a translation mix-up instead.”… You’ve got that right!!!!!!!! We’re in the Disinformation Age courtesy of TWI!
Qtana: Welcome to Grease Spot, Qtana. “That still small voice shouldn't have to fight for its way out, should it?” That is a very powerful question!
Pond: You mentioned the numbness – I think that is a great description of how I “felt” in many situations [like the ones I mentioned in my first post] – and become doubters – as you put it. We experience something that is wrong, inappropriate, etc. but this “numbness” neutralizes our perception of it.
SafariVista: “To the normal person, had his behavior been made public, it would have been clear that this Wierwille guy was a sex maniac, perverted, nasty, and freely stalking his young prey...” …Wow – that’s a big point right there – and as you say – the conditioning process just blinded us…I would like to say – after coming to Grease Spot for a short while – reading about the sex scandals, rapes, molestations, etc. – did not sway my thinking – it validated my thinking! As I reminisce over my TWI experiences with an awakened mind and conscience I think how can any sane, decent person not see how devilishly evil this is? When I left TWI it was over intellectual reasons [seeing errors in their doctrines, practices, method of Bible interpretation, etc.] but since I’ve been coming to Grease Spot the moral issues by far outweigh all those.
Excathedra: “I had already made anesthetizing my mind an artform.”… but TWI has made it an Industry Standard!
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rhino
I wonder how the lingering residual effects have spotted my thought processes. If some conditioning was deeply ingrained, it likely still redirects some thoughts as they meander through their neuronal pathways. Their subtlety makes them hard to recognize and root out. "Out, damn'd spot! out, I say!"
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I Love Bagpipes
Quote from the book you sited: "...it struck me as a perfect parable of the way modern people treat the warning messages of their consciences."
(Gosh, this subject could go into quite a few tangents...deep and thought provoking.)
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T-Bone
I know exactly what you mean, Rhino. Sometimes old mental habits become invisible - we don't realize they're there... I'm aware of something I do quite a bit now [years after being out of TWI] - I reflect on my day - usually at the end of the night before going to bed. It may just be for a minute or two. And it's not just reviewing some high point of the day - like some achievement at work. I also round up any "suspect thoughts" - or maybe it's not even something I would call an articulated thought...maybe a wrestling with something, some incident after the fact, maybe wondering if I was being upfront with someone at work, or maybe I didn't stand up for what I knew was the right thing in a situation....Anyway - I don't mean for it to sound like some big heavy or even unpleasant introspective session - it just me - I've gotten more into the PROCESS of thinking over the years....Which is a whole lot different than the way I used to operate while in TWI - I used to be real busy - always doing something, planning something, busy, busy, busy. Busy doing and not busy thinking...
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T-Bone
Bagpipes, I like your Righteous Anger thread! [Oh and I apologize to everyone – it feels like I'm commandeering my own thread – but everyone's posts have really got my old processor going! – now back to my preemptive rant… no wait …one more Station Identification…] I thought maybe I should post this on your Righteous Anger thread but I already posted something there – alright so I'm not good at staying on task – guess I'll have to pull out my "rambler's license" [got it myself at Bagpipes' Post-thru Service Desk - :) ] – and so throwing fear of derailment out the Windows XP I resume rambling about conscience and righteous anger.
One of the threads that has gotten me fired-up angry [and I mean the gosh-awful-I-hope-yah-don't-mind-Lord-if-I-overturn-a-few-tables-in-yah-temple-righteous-angry] is the Foolhardy Behavior thread, especially when dialogue got into the L.E.A.D. program, specifically hitching, and TWI's cavalier attitude [no wait – that's too soft] – flagrant disregard for the safety and security of people – and not just any old group of people – their most dedicated followers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've fantasized about time travel – or maybe it's more like a Quantum Leap episode – where I'm actually back in one of my TWI experiences – but I know then what I know now – and also have the nerve to stand up for my convictions – sort of a new and improved me displacing the wimpified spineless dullardesque core of my being…I can just imagine the re-make of the pajama party incident in my first post: We've just finished watching that sick doggie/women porn video, old Pervertwille is now showing that porn pen to the 16 year old girl. Suddenly I jump up while at the same time bellowing out some primordial roar that has amassed such force that I can no longer contain it. Of course all eyes are now upon me – but my eyes are locked in with his – I can hear Maverick's voice in my head "I've got tone, I've got tone!!!!!!!!!!" And then I slowly…deliberately…with all the emotion and drama of a thespian on steroids I say, "It is a disgrace for me to be here today. Why don't you just pack up all your perverted paraphernalia, Spanish Flies, Jedi mind-tricks – along with your lecherous weird-willie, get on your mobile-sacrificial-altar-for-sex-slaves [a.k.a. the Motor Coach] and get the heck out of Rome City."
I know that's kind of weird and strange thinking – but I actually do that sometimes – not to re-write any personal history, or re-interpret an experience to absolve myself of shame or guilt – but use it more as a self-corrective tool. My mom used to say "two wrongs don't make a right", [praise to mothers for passing on such great proverbs]. It's wrong to not get angry at the stuff VPW did! Putting my conscience on the back burner is wrong on my part! It is a sin of omission! I don't know - is there such a thing as hijacking someone's moral compass? Anyway – I'm not one to blame something like this on someone else. I turn that righteous anger on myself sometimes – as I realize how I was not vigilant in the care of my soul – and I let a thief inside…That anger hurts – yes a stinging motivation to change – but as you mentioned from that book on your Righteous Anger thread – in that righteous anger I also begin to see things from God's viewpoint – His creation at war with itself….I see it as a part of the healing process of my conscience.
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AXE
Man I'm wondering if I will ever trust another church or group of people? So much teaching seems to push an agenda that is not God's TWI had some good points but they used those to destroy individuals and control them as they pushed their agenda. It has been six years out of the way and my life is soooooooooooooooo much better now and I have seen many blessing in my life I am thankful that I was delivered from that destructive ministry while I had some sanity left! but of course they certainly left a mark on my life as many others whom I can only pray they are healed in their hearts from the manipulation and dogmatic control & abuse of TWI
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I Love Bagpipes
Hey Tbone...
Can I join your quantum leap? With the recent string theory (whatever that is) we could swing right back in time!! Like Tarzan on a vine....weeeeeeeeeeee.
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T-Bone
Before I started this thread – it has bugged me why my mind would keep going back to the pajama party incident – and really I never thought about it - until coming to Grease Spot this year. It's not like I was traumatized by the incident. I think for me it has become THE defining moment of the devilish influence that emanated from VPW.
It was a teacher/student setting – with me idolizing his every move all out of proportion. I firmly believed he could do no wrong. Whether he realized it or not – his true self came through – loud and clear. This happened in the Way Corps – the training center for his most dedicated followers! It's just another teaching opportunity – a subliminal one – the "master" is modeling how to be so spiritual, so mature – that he can do anything and not sin – "it's nothing more than watching porn with a sixteen year old girl."
Or what other demented reasoning would you like to use for justifying this incident? "I'm showing you this doggie/women porn video because it may help you in counseling someday." Oh yeah – good point - I forgot about all the thousands of people in the pornography industry I could help if I knew all the sordid details of their typical workday. And I think it would be a great challenge counseling a former porn-star canine.
From my Christian perspective, I like some of the points in The Vanishing Conscience by John MacArthur: Mental health is contingent, if not synonymous with, moral health. The conscience functions more like a skylight, not a light bulb. It lets light into the soul; it does not produce its own light. Its effectiveness is determined by the amount of light we expose to it, and how clean we keep it. Cover it or put it in darkness and it ceases to function. That is why the apostle Paul spoke of the importance of a clear conscience [I Timothy 3:9], and warned against anything that would defile or muddy the conscience [I Corinthians 8:12; Titus 1:15]. He warned of the dangers of a calloused conscience [I Corinthians 8:10], a wounded conscience [I Corinthians 8:12], and a seared conscience [I Timothy 4:2].
Some excerpts on "conscience" from The Tyndale Bible Dictionary by Walter Elwell and Philip Comfort:
"Although one's conscience is an inner witness to spiritual and moral truth, it cannot be regarded as the voice of God…No one has such a grasp on moral truth that his or her sinful nature may not overwhelm the conscience and render it unreliable…Both the English word "conscience" and the Greek word translated as "conscience" in the New Testament mean "to be with knowledge." In the Old Testament, Adam and Eve hid themselves from God in shame because their consciences passed moral judgment on their disobedience [Genesis 3:8-10]. All human beings normally have the power of moral judgment: "The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord, searching all his innermost parts" [Proverbs 20:27]. Conscience, then is a gift of God to provide light in matters of good and evil."
I went through the Way Corps program during the latter part of my TWI years. Yes, this sedative to the conscience was already coursing through my decision-making process but had not met any real catalyst of opportunity – for my wife and I left TWI during our practicum year – after Geer's power-play Patriarch fiasco.
What if we had stayed in? Considering my upbringing – a good Roman Catholic boy that feels guilty about everything – I don't think I would have become a major womanizer, thinking I was god on a stick – but I could have walked right into a temptation to be unfaithful. Maybe one day I'm counseling a woman – she's telling me she wishes her husband would be sweet to her like the way she's seen me at twig with my wife. She says she hasn't been intimate with her husband in years. She says she just needs God's love, a healing touch, to be loved by a spiritual man. She says she needs a hug – just a hug….I can easily see myself – running all these things through my mind of what to do to help – wanting to help – and then the seductive subliminal VPW training would activate – thoughts like: "Anything done out of love is okay. I think I'm spiritual enough I can handle anything – no fear – and I care about this believer enough – to meet her needs – whatever it takes."
This is an amazing thing to me. For something that can have such a powerful influence in dealing with memories, how we act at the moment or plan to act in the future – this inner voice can be "silenced" if we ignore it long enough. As I Timothy 4:2 points out – our conscience can become seared – cauterized – rendered insensitive by persisting in evil.
This thread has been mostly a self-help therapy for me. As I continue in this Christian life I become more concerned about the moral status of my heart. Dealing with the mental baggage of my TWI years is like trying to re-calibrate my moral guidance system – or maybe installing an anti-virus program in my heart...
Why did I start this thread? A few reasons…I don't have some secret sin to confess – but I have such a healthy respect for the devastating power of sin and think I may have dodged a deadly bullet by abandoning TWI's leadership training program. What kind of person would I have become continuing in that frame of mind?
Another reason is there are some who have left TWI and maybe still are not aware of the dark side of VPW. Perhaps there are Corps – still in TWI – who have never thought seriously about the subtle influence of leadership modeling such a morally corrupt version of Christianity. Consider I Thessalonians 1: 6 "You became imitators of us and of the Lord…" I think people have a natural tendency to imitate others. That's how we learn – until we make something our own.
The Old Testament reference to the "heart" included the idea of our conscience. Proverbs 4:23 "Watch over your heart with all diligence, for from it flow the springs of life."
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Bramble
Mental health is contingent with moral health?
Wow. As the sibling of a severely mentally ill brother who started manifesting signs of the illness as early as 8th grade all I can say to that is, huh?
Mental illness and immorality are not the same thing at all.
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T-Bone
I agree, Bramble. I don't think that's what MacArthur was saying - but I'm not here to explain or defend something he said. I didn't take it that he was putting immorality in the same category as mental illness. My take on it - like I said in my post - is from my Christian perspective. Proverbs 3:7,8 "Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord and turn away from evil. It will be healing to your body, and refreshment to your bones." I take those verses the same way. As a Christian, I believe my overall general health is somewhat linked to my moral health...I certainly don't lump moral depravity and mental illness together - that would absolve the wicked [the morally depraved] of any responsibility!...
Thanks for replying, Bramble - it's good to know somebody is reading my long posts!
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WordWolf
When the subject of "conscience" comes up, I sometimes (like now)
am reminded of something I read long ago.
An "American Indian" once explained what a conscience is.
"It is a three-pointed thing in here. (*gestures to his stomach*)
When I do wrong, it turns, and the points hurt me.
But if I KEEP doing wrong,
then the points wear down, and they don't hurt so much anymore."
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T-Bone
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Bolshevik
thanks for bringing this up T-Bone
I remember as a boy and teenager and not too long ago watching people get reemed. Why is was ever important that I was there I don't know. I was present for marriages to be ripped apart, hearts torn, and people just being reduced to nothing. These things always came up unexpectedly. But it was all done beause of "The Word" or something.
I hadn't realized these events were wrong until recently. Every now and then I remember another incident and think "OMG". I'm thankful now that I recognize that those events were ungodly.
What sickens me now though, is that I actually began to enjoy them. There was always a shock value to these events, and they were supposedly done to protect the Household and defeat the Devil. You leave these meetings thinking you've witnessed the adversary taking it in the teeth and God's will done. More yelling and reproof ment more of God's Word done. So I actually learned to enjoy them. (Just like a good teaching was simply based on how loud lcm yelled)
My conscience was darkened. Thank God I see that now.
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likeaneagle
Hey Tbone-
Man O Man-Aint it true..Maybe this is the reason my brain seems astray at times..its looking for something to void out (way speaking-conditioned) Post Twi- I feel my brain is way over active and then under active...what the hey??????
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johniam
Well, after 20 plus replies there ought to be a voice of dissent.
VP taught, both in God's Magnified Word and in the Lifestyle of the believer, that man's conscience is his servant, not his master. And that is true.
But we have all been brainwashed to believe that we should "let our conscience be our guide" (Jiminy Cricket from Pinnochio) and also check out the gold fish in Dr. Seuss's The Cat in the Hat. That fish is the self appointed conscience of that story.
Conscience is moral awareness, true, but it's still based 100% on what we've been previously taught. It's our habit patterns. In that film The Prevailing Word VP said that children will never lie to you until the adults teach them how. One show I watched was 'Judging Amy'. It's your basic liberal socialist propaganda show like others, but Amy is a juvenile court judge who can be brutally honest when rendering a judgement for other peoples' kids, but in dealing with her own child, a teenage girl, she refuses to be honest. She won't even admit that she (Amy) used dope when she was a child and young adult, so of course, her daughter frequently lies to her about stuff and Amy can't put 2 and 2 together to save her life. If you teach kids either verbally or by example that it's OK to lie they'll pick up on it and their consciences won't bother them for doing it.
But like I said, a conscience is a man's servant, not his master. We all know the scripture about someone's conscience being seared with a hot iron. This person's habit pattern was to do the word, then they do something they know is off the word the first time and their conscience bothers them a lot, but the more they do it, the less their conscience bothers them until finally it doesn't bother them at all.
What about the reverse of that? Instead of having your conscience seared with a hot iron, how about having it "cleared with cool living water"? Romans 8:1 says there is no condemnation. What exactly is this 'condemnation'? Judgement? Condemnation is more than just feeling a little pain once in awhile; it's part of the 'dead in tresspasses and sins' package we inherited from Adam. Our habit pattern, no matter what our background is, included much judgement and abuse based on the common expectation of death we all have, again inherited from Adam. So when someone says, "there is therefore now no condemnation", this is quite contrary to our habit pattern isn't it?
The first time you consider "no condemnation" your conscience literally bothers you: "No no, that can't be right. It's just too good to be true." But the more you consider that Christ paid for "no condemnation" and it's not dependent on your own works, the less it bothers you to think that "no condemnation" could actually be true, until finally, it doesn't bother you at all. THAT is renewed mind!
I don't speak for all, but I absolutely refuse to allow a group of self appointed prosecutors to blow off the good news of "no condemnation" just because VP was human. If your habit pattern is now to figure out every way possible that pfal was a scam, then you'll reap what you sew, and be second guessing every spiritual decision you ever make.
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Ham
Yeah, a servant. To be beaten into subjection. Worked for Hitler and gang.
Honestly, after leaving der vey, I've apologized to MY conscience..
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Ham
T-Bone, I don't think it was a sedative that was applied to some people's conscience, it was a club.
Feel really, really bad about something you said, or did? Well, "no condemnation". "Don't you DARE try to touch MY righteousness.."
I got that reply a few times from a simple inquiry, in love.
I think we were trained to beat the snot out of ourselves with our own righteousness.
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