From reading the history of the "Jesus Movement" revival and its beginnings in the mid-to late '60s through the early '70s, it got divided into basically 3 groups. The young man who started it, Lonnie Frisbee, and others, are the two groups who were not influenced by VP - they are still going strong today - the Vineyard and I think its Calvary church? I forget the name. But they have continued to grow over the years and today.
Thanks, Sunesis......yeah, the Jesus Movement.
From one of the Jesus Movement sites.....here is some info listed below:
Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel - Frustrated by church growth contests and recruitment techniques, in 1965 Smith took over as pastor of a tiny congregation in Costa Mesa, California. While watching hippies gather at Huntington Beach he and his wife were moved to find some way to reach these lost youth with the gospel. In 1968 Smith recruited Lonnie Frisbee and John Higgins to start a drug rehabilitation and commune called The House of Miracles. Smith's openness to the hippie culture sparked thousands of hippies to come to the church where he functioned as their father figure. Heavily influenced by premillennial interpretation of the Bible, Smith has become one of the leading figures of prophecy books and end-times publications selling thousands of copies of his various texts. Under his leadership, Calvary Chapel has spawned hundreds of similar churches and is cited as one of this half century's church growth phenomenons.
Ted Wise and the House of Acts community - Converted in 1966 Wise is remembered as the first street Christian converts of the ensuing Jesus People Movement. In 1967 he and his wife Liz (and three other couples) opened The Living Room mission in the Haight-Ashbury district of San Francisco. Although in operation for only 18 months, the staffers suggested they talked with several thousand people. Wise and his group also came to live in community, taking the Acts' account of the early Christians as a literal guide. The resultant House of Acts community, the first Jesus commune of the movement, stood as a model for other similar communities that sprung up all across the continent. After this, Wise was recruited by Ray Stedman of Peninsula Bible Church (PBC) to work with drug addicts and open rehabilitation clinics. He remains affiliated to PBC to the present. (Read a recent interview with Ted)
Jim Durkin and Lighthouse Ranch - In the summer of 1970 while Jim Durkin was experiencing dissatisfaction with his ministry, he was approached by several Jesus People looking to begin an evangelistic ministry to the hippies. Though initially hesitant, Durkin allowed the young group access to one of his apartment complexes helping them establish a coffeehouse outreach program. As the ministry blossomed they looked to him for leadership. He acquired an abandoned coast guard station eleven miles outside of Eureka, California allowing the young Christians to use this as their new home.
Gospel Outreach Lighthouse Ranch, Table Bluff Road in Loleta, CA
They dubbed it the Lighthouse Ranch. By 1972 the group had grown to between 250 - 300 active members. Under Durkin's oversight the group began to send out church planting teams all over the world eventually calling their growing organization Gospel Outreach. Throughout the 1970s and 1980s, Gospel Outreach (GO) continued to send out missionary teams including successful campaigns in Mendocino (California), Germany, Nicaragua, and Hawaii. With 100 affiliated churches worldwide the Gospel Outreach network is one of three denominational legacies of the Jesus People Movement.
Victor Paul Wierwille - A graduate of Princeton Theological Seminary and ordained in the United Church of Christ. Believing that much of the Christian was in error, in 1955 Wierwille founded The Way to educate young men and women in the "correct way of biblical education." In 1968 Wierwille contacted and recruited two members of the first street Christian community in the Haight Ashbury, asking them to head up Way International training centers in California and New York. The Way International raised the ire of other Christian groups, labelled a "cult" because of their antitrinitarian views. One of the largest of all the extremist groups of the Jesus People movement, by the mid-1970s the organization boasted over 20,000 active members. Wierwille died in 1986 leaving The Way International in a state of disarray having to deal with financial mismanagement, accusations that he had plagiarized some of his writings, and sexual immorality.
I also appreciate Sunesis' well-composed synopsis above. It's a pretty accurate description of what happened.
However, OM you miss this point:
TWI ended up being the counterfeit of the real movement, a blind alley that siphoned off God's people from a real move of God into a dead end. While the other two movements continued, TWI went on its own tangent, sputtered, and ran out of gas (true spiritual energy) as VP choked it off.
Sunesis - you definitely live up to you name. What a well formulated response.
You mentioned POP and the mass exodus that followed and how many of the younger people (teens and early 20's) didn't leave. I was among that group. It took me quite a long time after that to leave. The reason wasn't that I viewed the Way as perfect, but I still saw God as a God of grace. I wanted the Way to change, to go back to it's roots. I had to give it the opportunity to make amends. The chance to return to what we knew in the 70's and I was going to help take it there. The Way was all many of us, of the younger group at that time, ever knew.
My mom will say now that she prayed to God for a class not a ministry and that she should have taken the class and run. She is always appologizing for getting us in the ministry. But truth is I never blamed her or the ministry for my life because we all must take responsibility for our own actions.
When I finally did leave it was because I felt nothing I could ever do will bring back the ministry I knew in the 70's, and the more I tried the more I got beat down by the ministry I had literally given my life to. Stripped of everything even my advanced class status, I finally decided the Way was a dead group with no hope of change. I believed at that point if I stayed I would be a hypocrit. So I finally left.
If I believed it couldn't be revived then, how could it be revived now 4 years later when the crud thickens and grace is stripped even more and replaced more and more with legalism.
Thanks Sunesis, your post laid it out so clearly where the true heart of the ministry eminated and why it was unsalvagable long before POP.
Thanks all. Hello Catcup, my fellow scum of the crik alumni!
Yes, that's the point, which Catcup pointed out, that I was trying to make. The other ministries are still going strong and growing to this day. TWI has crashed and burned. I do not think the reason can be anything but spiritual.
I agree, we were part of this genuine revival, under Heefner and Doop.
My belief is it was hijacked, with a well planned and thought out strategy, by a wolf in sheep's clothing. That does not negate the fact, that God still loved and blessed us as much as possible, and gave us a way out - it was an exodus. I know in the first exodus, it was like, we all woke up at once - it really was like an awakening. I have to believe it was a move of the Holy Spirit among us.
I also like Wordwolf's point that the remaining youth in TWI, if they want it to revive, will have to do it covertly. I do not believe any kind of revival of God is covert, if anything, its obvious and overt. Thus, a covert uprising of young TWIers will not work. Can you see San Francisco street people being welcomed at TWI? 35 years ago they were, but never today. The BOD wouldn't want any "impurity" in the household or on their hallowed grounds.
The young TWI kids will have to break away. They will have to get to know the "absent" Christ. If there ever is a true spiritual hunger among the younger generation, God will raise someone up - it won't be TWIers or its offspring.
P.S. Just saw your post Freeatlast - great points. Its great hearing from the younger generation what you were thinking. I'd like to know more.
Ya know what I find really funny about all this? That Bob & Dottie Moynihan, among others, recognize that TWI is evil to the core. Dottie, specifically, knows and has known about all the sexual abuse, condoned it, supported it and never spoke out about it as was her duty as a TWI-taught "watchman on the tower" - "standing in the gap" leader.
YET, she had the nerve to say to me shortly before I was "allowed" to "take a break" from attending fellowship, that "soon, I would begin to see the ministry that I came to know and love get back to that". :blink: There honestly never was a ministry "I knew and loved". I loved what I was learning and "put up with" the rest of it to get to learn. There were a handfull of folks that I truly love and cared about, but there were no "glory days" from 1993 when I got involved till I left two years ago.
So, even the long timers like Bob & Dottie KNOW things are rotten, but even they can't make any changes, much as they would like to be able to. It's obvious that they have to work covertly or they will lose the paycheck that they need to survive. Why else would they have moved so far away from their precious grandchildren? Money, money, money..... Love of money...... and Fear, fear, fear..... fear of not being able to make it in "the real world" having never done so before.
What's really sad is that they have encouraged and supported their son becoming the same way - dependent on an extremely corrupt, evil, devilish organization for a paycheck and a roof over their head. :huh:
Bingo Belle. I believe that's why my brother stays. He has a bachelors in Computer Science and is so outdated that he would have a difficult time getting back into the field which makes the way look really good, since they are providing him a paycheck.
Well put together & a loving act of service, Sunesis - thanks.
If I may add 2 or 3 things...
With the Way tree, he [VP] was able to put a structure in place quickly.
It seems we called them fellowships. I don't recall for sure, but I don't think we called them twigs in '71, maybe we did. But I remember learning about building a number of fellowships in a certain area, & I think at that point we were calling them branches. But then we were informed that what we were doing WASN'T The Way Tree, & the WC came light-bearers to NY & chopped everything up with the Way Tree cookie cutter style. If one went to a certain twig, THAT'S the twig they had to go to exclusively. Not only that, but it wasn't
godly to go to someone other than your twig coordinator, especially someone in another twig for ministering if you had a need. IMO, it was that instituting of The Way Tree that finalized the take over of power at the "leaf" level. The branch & limb levels had already been taken over by Wierwille, & it was this fully implemented Way Tree structure that broke up the rest of the "joints and bands" in the Body through which increase came by Jesus Christ, the head.
VP bided his time and waited a year or so (70-71), let things grow while he sat on his duff on the farm, until there were enough people in place, that he could clamp down, causing Heefner to walk, but by this time - that was ok, he now had other men who could take their place.
It was also at this time that the Way West & the Way East were making a lot more money than Wierwille. He couldn't STAND that.
I think, as long as VP appointed "leadership" was not in an area, it flourished. Once structure came in, the growth started slowing.
As I remember hearing things, God told Heefner that if he moved to NY, the Word would move there, & so he did, & it did. I definitely know from Steve Perez on Long Island that God said as much to him about moving to Long Island to move the Word. This was Jesus Christ growing his Body. VP appointing "leadership" was BS - as was the WOW program. Before that people WERE going where God was showing them to go to move the Word. WOW stopped all that. VP said he was putting the WOW program into effect because people were too afraid to answer the call from God to go & move it, & that he was just going to put the WOW program into effect for a few short years until people got over their fear & could answer the call from God directly. Well, obviously VP NEVER ended the WOW program. Actually, people were responding before the WOW program, & stopped afterward. How could people answer the call from God when all revelation was coming to VP or to Wiengartner or whomever sat in the seat of power (where Jesus belonged & was doing just fine)?
Now, if there has been no intermediate class, or advanced class, who really would have stayed after awhile? VP had it set so that, if you want to grow, take the next class, and the top class was the advanced class. Note, no one was allowed to share what was in it with someone who hadn't taken it.
People were receiving revelation and being followed by signs, miracles, & wonders. People shared about those things. There was an attempt to shut everyone's mouths because "it was just ego." But if you wanted to learn honestly, you would know people who would share what you needed - it was part of the practical aspect of those joints and bands ministering in love that I talked about. The attempt to muzzle the whole thing in the name of pure doctrine was, IMO, nothing more than the same control effort of VP.
In '72, Wierwille came to NY to teach the advanced class because there was so much spiritual activity going on, he saw the need - or so he said. I heard nothing at that class that I didn't already know from someone in NY, & hadn't already seen in action. Maybe not some of the specific examples - some of the amazing accounts of healings in the class, but in those days most of those accounts weren't TWI accounts anyway. Biblically, we are SUPPOSED to tell of the things that God is doing. We were - that's how we learned. TWI tried to put a quietus to the life of it. They didn't. Not then. Finally, via The Way Tree, they did.
In '72, Wierwille came to NY to teach the advanced class because there was so much spiritual activity going on, he saw the need - or so he said. I heard nothing at that class that I didn't already know from someone in NY, & hadn't already seen in action.
Tom.....sounds like wierwille went to NY to boost his influence and "power grab" the spiritual activity. And, for that matter.......seems like wierwille's motorcoach runs were aimed at HOT SPOTS of growing work rather than the spirit of God in action as noted in the book of Acts.
In marketing his product.........wierwille was loading up all the bells and whistles when he went on these (business) itineraries. More hype than substance.
Understandably, this approach did NOT please the One True God.......and, as you noted, the "joints and bands" were cut asunder and a counterfeit structure was implemented.
... it was this fully implemented Way Tree structure that broke up the rest of the "joints and bands" in the Body through which increase came by Jesus Christ, the head.
I definitely believe there was increase in the body of Christ, even with this structure.
I feel the same way today. God can work with folks in the structure to bring increase to His body.
Great synopsis, Sunesis! Thanks for the info on the Jesus Movement, Skyrider. Tom, I liked the stuff you shared about not putting new wine in old wine skins and on the joints and bands. Thinking about all this stuff I see that sometimes God works through people and situations - and sometimes in spite of people and situations.
nope won't happen to much ego, to much disdain, to little love, need to get away from the Euro German, Aryan, Anti Semetic, Ionian Javaian mind set; there is a big world out there ,can't just feeel comfortable with one race of people when moving the WORD.
Tom, I liked the stuff you shared about not putting new wine in old wine skins and on the joints and bands.
Thanks, T-Bone
Thinking about all this stuff I see that sometimes God works through people and situations - and sometimes in spite of people and situations.
I definitely believe there was increase in the body of Christ, even with this structure.
I feel the same way today. God can work with folks in the structure to bring increase to His body.
Yeah, I figure God is always doing the best he can with what He's got.
God can even use an a$$ (Balaam's a$$) to get His Word across to another a$$ (Balaam). But I'm not in favor of becoming an a$$ to get the point across.
VP promoted The Way Tree as an original revelation to him.
He also promoted it as a a revelation to him revealing how the 1st century church operated.
He also said that the 1st century church was led to meet in home fellowships by the guidance of holy spirit.
Ah, yes, he also likened The Way Tree to the way Moses was advised by Jethro to lead the people of Israel.
If the 1st century church really operated according to The Way Tree that VP promoted as an original revelation to himself, doesn't that dismiss the idea that there was anything original about the revelation?
He also said the communist cells operated that way, & that's why they were so effective. Today, he would say terrorist cells. And he would be right, but it seems to me that communists were operating that way before VP got his original revelation.
I do not believe that it was any kind of revelation to VP. I also do not believe that's the way the 1st century church (after which TWI was "supposed" to pattern itself) operated. I think The Way Tree, as it was presented to us, was pretty much a lie top to bottom. It was, I think, John Lynn, who described The Way Tree as the systematizing of error. THAT, I believe, is the truth.
If I were to try to trace back this revelation to who 1st received it, I would accept Jethro as a possibility - no one afterwards could then qualify. I don't see much difference between what Wierwille described as The Way Tree & how Jethro advised Moses to organize the people. But when Moses instituted his "way tree," it enabled him to "Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God: and thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do" without "Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too heavy for thee; thou art not able to perform it thyself alone."
VP was trying to be a Moses to His (is that a nice fatherly term to your ears or a term of ownership or both - they're both wrong!) people. But he WASN'T Moses, & we WEREN'T the sheep of Israel. He and we were all members in particular in the Body of Christ.
In Moses' day, the "way tree" replaced long lines that Moses waited on all day to give the people the counsel of God while still enabling HIM to answer THEIR needs.
In our day, The Way Tree replaced the joints and bands of the One Body through which Jesus Christ brought increase to the One Body, & INSTEAD enabled VP to be our "father" & "teacher" (both contrary to the advice of Jesus Christ), & the determinator of what all true guidance was.
Systems theorists recognize that people ought to organize themselves into organic rather than mechanically organized systems. People, like all living organisms, don't respond to industrial age laws such as "if you want twice as much product, work you people twice as many hours." They grow & suffer setbacks in waves. Anyone who ever has been sick or trained athletically knows that. The Body of Christ isn't a mechanical structure; it is an organism. It is the masterpiece of God when it comes to organisms.
When I would leave NY in the early 70's & go to HQ, I would FEEL like I had left spiritual life & gone to a place where VP was Moses & we were all Jews. Now I know why & can put it into words (but you'd better have not tried to put it into words to anyone while you were there). It WAS that way. Then, after a while, it seemed right to be the right way. Then, when I would return to NY, it would seem like a confusing mess. But after a while, I would see the spiritual life of the believers, the vitality pulsing through the body there. In a short time my fellowship grew to over 30 people, but I always knew how everyone was doing basically because I quickly became part of the flow of the life of the thing, & basically, we were swimming in the power & victory of God - but an OT perspective with the veil still over the eyes wouldn't see it.
Okay, I've gone on long enough - hope I'm still making sense.
nope won't happen to much ego, to much disdain, to little love, need to get away from the Euro German, Aryan, Anti Semetic, Ionian Javaian mind set; there is a big world out there ,can't just feeel comfortable with one race of people when moving the WORD.
So much hurt here, Craig Matindale got off easy, that punk a$$ bastard got off easy. He was the real pimpjuice, pimpin out Gods people for profit where is the justice. Made your millions and now your laughing at GS. it's not fair dudes.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
5
5
5
4
Popular Days
Aug 6
28
Aug 9
14
Aug 8
12
Aug 7
7
Top Posters In This Topic
Tom 5 posts
skyrider 5 posts
FreeAtLast 5 posts
Catcup 4 posts
Popular Days
Aug 6 2006
28 posts
Aug 9 2006
14 posts
Aug 8 2006
12 posts
Aug 7 2006
7 posts
dmiller
Can you polish a turd??
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Not in any way to try to take anything from Sunesis' posts
(which summarize things marvellously, IMHO),
but one last thought occurred to me which I felt
emphasized the guarantee of utter failure for this concept.
You've got kids who want to try to "fix" twi.
So, they're making arrangements, plans and deals
COVERTLY
in the hopes that the WayGB and the bod don't catch them
and come down on them like a falling safe.
They think things could be better.
(Things can ALWAYS be improved.)
So they have to plan SECRETLY to introduce God's blessings.
Let's say you've got someone who thinks a website and
message-forums could be improved.
He doesn't have the talents to really transform them,
and lacks the knowledge to speak authoritatively.
He rolls up his sleeves and gets to simple posts and
trying to find the information and organize the information
that's already there. Nobody stops him. Eventually,
a few people start to think of him as someone who's making
a positive difference there, and knows stuff.
Which he does know, eventually.
Having compared those 2 side-by-side,
I can see one is a healthy setup,
and one is NOT a healthy setup.
I think comparing the two makes it baldly obvious for just about
everyone else, too.
Ultimately, though, I think Sunesis' answers said it all.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Thanks, Sunesis......yeah, the Jesus Movement.
From one of the Jesus Movement sites.....here is some info listed below:
Chuck Smith and Calvary Chapel - Frustrated by church growth contests and recruitment techniques, in 1965 Smith took over as pastor of a tiny congregation in Costa Mesa, California. While watching hippies gather at Huntington Beach he and his wife were moved to find some way to reach these lost youth with the gospel. In 1968 Smith recruited Lonnie Frisbee and John Higgins to start a drug rehabilitation and commune called The House of Miracles. Smith's openness to the hippie culture sparked thousands of hippies to come to the church where he functioned as their father figure. Heavily influenced by premillennial interpretation of the Bible, Smith has become one of the leading figures of prophecy books and end-times publications selling thousands of copies of his various texts. Under his leadership, Calvary Chapel has spawned hundreds of similar churches and is cited as one of this half century's church growth phenomenons.
Ted Wise and the House of Acts community - Converted in 1966 Wise is remembered as the first street Christian converts of the ensuing Jesus People Movement. In 1967 he and his wife Liz (and three other couples) opened The Living Room mission in the Haight-Ashbury district of San Francisco. Although in operation for only 18 months, the staffers suggested they talked with several thousand people. Wise and his group also came to live in community, taking the Acts' account of the early Christians as a literal guide. The resultant House of Acts community, the first Jesus commune of the movement, stood as a model for other similar communities that sprung up all across the continent. After this, Wise was recruited by Ray Stedman of Peninsula Bible Church (PBC) to work with drug addicts and open rehabilitation clinics. He remains affiliated to PBC to the present. (Read a recent interview with Ted)
Jim Durkin and Lighthouse Ranch - In the summer of 1970 while Jim Durkin was experiencing dissatisfaction with his ministry, he was approached by several Jesus People looking to begin an evangelistic ministry to the hippies. Though initially hesitant, Durkin allowed the young group access to one of his apartment complexes helping them establish a coffeehouse outreach program. As the ministry blossomed they looked to him for leadership. He acquired an abandoned coast guard station eleven miles outside of Eureka, California allowing the young Christians to use this as their new home.
Gospel Outreach Lighthouse Ranch, Table Bluff Road in Loleta, CA
They dubbed it the Lighthouse Ranch. By 1972 the group had grown to between 250 - 300 active members. Under Durkin's oversight the group began to send out church planting teams all over the world eventually calling their growing organization Gospel Outreach. Throughout the 1970s and 1980s, Gospel Outreach (GO) continued to send out missionary teams including successful campaigns in Mendocino (California), Germany, Nicaragua, and Hawaii. With 100 affiliated churches worldwide the Gospel Outreach network is one of three denominational legacies of the Jesus People Movement.
Victor Paul Wierwille - A graduate of Princeton Theological Seminary and ordained in the United Church of Christ. Believing that much of the Christian was in error, in 1955 Wierwille founded The Way to educate young men and women in the "correct way of biblical education." In 1968 Wierwille contacted and recruited two members of the first street Christian community in the Haight Ashbury, asking them to head up Way International training centers in California and New York. The Way International raised the ire of other Christian groups, labelled a "cult" because of their antitrinitarian views. One of the largest of all the extremist groups of the Jesus People movement, by the mid-1970s the organization boasted over 20,000 active members. Wierwille died in 1986 leaving The Way International in a state of disarray having to deal with financial mismanagement, accusations that he had plagiarized some of his writings, and sexual immorality.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
I don't have a problem with considering twi being part of a wider and bigger Jesus Movement resurgence/revival of Christianity in the 60's and 70's.
It's nice to hear some folks appreciate that twi was a part of that, and a part of the growing body of Christ of that era, and not some counterfeit.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Catcup
I also appreciate Sunesis' well-composed synopsis above. It's a pretty accurate description of what happened.
However, OM you miss this point:
TWI ended up being the counterfeit of the real movement, a blind alley that siphoned off God's people from a real move of God into a dead end. While the other two movements continued, TWI went on its own tangent, sputtered, and ran out of gas (true spiritual energy) as VP choked it off.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
FreeAtLast
Sunesis - you definitely live up to you name. What a well formulated response.
You mentioned POP and the mass exodus that followed and how many of the younger people (teens and early 20's) didn't leave. I was among that group. It took me quite a long time after that to leave. The reason wasn't that I viewed the Way as perfect, but I still saw God as a God of grace. I wanted the Way to change, to go back to it's roots. I had to give it the opportunity to make amends. The chance to return to what we knew in the 70's and I was going to help take it there. The Way was all many of us, of the younger group at that time, ever knew.
My mom will say now that she prayed to God for a class not a ministry and that she should have taken the class and run. She is always appologizing for getting us in the ministry. But truth is I never blamed her or the ministry for my life because we all must take responsibility for our own actions.
When I finally did leave it was because I felt nothing I could ever do will bring back the ministry I knew in the 70's, and the more I tried the more I got beat down by the ministry I had literally given my life to. Stripped of everything even my advanced class status, I finally decided the Way was a dead group with no hope of change. I believed at that point if I stayed I would be a hypocrit. So I finally left.
If I believed it couldn't be revived then, how could it be revived now 4 years later when the crud thickens and grace is stripped even more and replaced more and more with legalism.
Thanks Sunesis, your post laid it out so clearly where the true heart of the ministry eminated and why it was unsalvagable long before POP.
Edited by FreeAtLastLink to comment
Share on other sites
Sunesis
Thanks all. Hello Catcup, my fellow scum of the crik alumni!
Yes, that's the point, which Catcup pointed out, that I was trying to make. The other ministries are still going strong and growing to this day. TWI has crashed and burned. I do not think the reason can be anything but spiritual.
I agree, we were part of this genuine revival, under Heefner and Doop.
My belief is it was hijacked, with a well planned and thought out strategy, by a wolf in sheep's clothing. That does not negate the fact, that God still loved and blessed us as much as possible, and gave us a way out - it was an exodus. I know in the first exodus, it was like, we all woke up at once - it really was like an awakening. I have to believe it was a move of the Holy Spirit among us.
I also like Wordwolf's point that the remaining youth in TWI, if they want it to revive, will have to do it covertly. I do not believe any kind of revival of God is covert, if anything, its obvious and overt. Thus, a covert uprising of young TWIers will not work. Can you see San Francisco street people being welcomed at TWI? 35 years ago they were, but never today. The BOD wouldn't want any "impurity" in the household or on their hallowed grounds.
The young TWI kids will have to break away. They will have to get to know the "absent" Christ. If there ever is a true spiritual hunger among the younger generation, God will raise someone up - it won't be TWIers or its offspring.
P.S. Just saw your post Freeatlast - great points. Its great hearing from the younger generation what you were thinking. I'd like to know more.
Edited by SunesisLink to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
I disagree, but perhaps today's TWI could be a legalistic counterfeit of the TWI of the 60's and 70's; which was part of that genuine movement of God.
I never met Heefner and Doop, but view their participation in twi as part of the genuine.
Whether twi revives remains to be seen. I'm not a prophet and don't wish to predict the future.
The offshoots are doing pretty well, I consider them genuine.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Ya know what I find really funny about all this? That Bob & Dottie Moynihan, among others, recognize that TWI is evil to the core. Dottie, specifically, knows and has known about all the sexual abuse, condoned it, supported it and never spoke out about it as was her duty as a TWI-taught "watchman on the tower" - "standing in the gap" leader.
YET, she had the nerve to say to me shortly before I was "allowed" to "take a break" from attending fellowship, that "soon, I would begin to see the ministry that I came to know and love get back to that". :blink: There honestly never was a ministry "I knew and loved". I loved what I was learning and "put up with" the rest of it to get to learn. There were a handfull of folks that I truly love and cared about, but there were no "glory days" from 1993 when I got involved till I left two years ago.
So, even the long timers like Bob & Dottie KNOW things are rotten, but even they can't make any changes, much as they would like to be able to. It's obvious that they have to work covertly or they will lose the paycheck that they need to survive. Why else would they have moved so far away from their precious grandchildren? Money, money, money..... Love of money...... and Fear, fear, fear..... fear of not being able to make it in "the real world" having never done so before.
What's really sad is that they have encouraged and supported their son becoming the same way - dependent on an extremely corrupt, evil, devilish organization for a paycheck and a roof over their head. :huh:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
FreeAtLast
Bingo Belle. I believe that's why my brother stays. He has a bachelors in Computer Science and is so outdated that he would have a difficult time getting back into the field which makes the way look really good, since they are providing him a paycheck.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
Well put together & a loving act of service, Sunesis - thanks.
If I may add 2 or 3 things...
It seems we called them fellowships. I don't recall for sure, but I don't think we called them twigs in '71, maybe we did. But I remember learning about building a number of fellowships in a certain area, & I think at that point we were calling them branches. But then we were informed that what we were doing WASN'T The Way Tree, & the WC came light-bearers to NY & chopped everything up with the Way Tree cookie cutter style. If one went to a certain twig, THAT'S the twig they had to go to exclusively. Not only that, but it wasn't
godly to go to someone other than your twig coordinator, especially someone in another twig for ministering if you had a need. IMO, it was that instituting of The Way Tree that finalized the take over of power at the "leaf" level. The branch & limb levels had already been taken over by Wierwille, & it was this fully implemented Way Tree structure that broke up the rest of the "joints and bands" in the Body through which increase came by Jesus Christ, the head.
It was also at this time that the Way West & the Way East were making a lot more money than Wierwille. He couldn't STAND that.
As I remember hearing things, God told Heefner that if he moved to NY, the Word would move there, & so he did, & it did. I definitely know from Steve Perez on Long Island that God said as much to him about moving to Long Island to move the Word. This was Jesus Christ growing his Body. VP appointing "leadership" was BS - as was the WOW program. Before that people WERE going where God was showing them to go to move the Word. WOW stopped all that. VP said he was putting the WOW program into effect because people were too afraid to answer the call from God to go & move it, & that he was just going to put the WOW program into effect for a few short years until people got over their fear & could answer the call from God directly. Well, obviously VP NEVER ended the WOW program. Actually, people were responding before the WOW program, & stopped afterward. How could people answer the call from God when all revelation was coming to VP or to Wiengartner or whomever sat in the seat of power (where Jesus belonged & was doing just fine)?
People were receiving revelation and being followed by signs, miracles, & wonders. People shared about those things. There was an attempt to shut everyone's mouths because "it was just ego." But if you wanted to learn honestly, you would know people who would share what you needed - it was part of the practical aspect of those joints and bands ministering in love that I talked about. The attempt to muzzle the whole thing in the name of pure doctrine was, IMO, nothing more than the same control effort of VP.
In '72, Wierwille came to NY to teach the advanced class because there was so much spiritual activity going on, he saw the need - or so he said. I heard nothing at that class that I didn't already know from someone in NY, & hadn't already seen in action. Maybe not some of the specific examples - some of the amazing accounts of healings in the class, but in those days most of those accounts weren't TWI accounts anyway. Biblically, we are SUPPOSED to tell of the things that God is doing. We were - that's how we learned. TWI tried to put a quietus to the life of it. They didn't. Not then. Finally, via The Way Tree, they did.
Edited by TomLink to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
Tom.....sounds like wierwille went to NY to boost his influence and "power grab" the spiritual activity. And, for that matter.......seems like wierwille's motorcoach runs were aimed at HOT SPOTS of growing work rather than the spirit of God in action as noted in the book of Acts.
In marketing his product.........wierwille was loading up all the bells and whistles when he went on these (business) itineraries. More hype than substance.
Understandably, this approach did NOT please the One True God.......and, as you noted, the "joints and bands" were cut asunder and a counterfeit structure was implemented.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
I definitely believe there was increase in the body of Christ, even with this structure.
I feel the same way today. God can work with folks in the structure to bring increase to His body.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Great synopsis, Sunesis! Thanks for the info on the Jesus Movement, Skyrider. Tom, I liked the stuff you shared about not putting new wine in old wine skins and on the joints and bands. Thinking about all this stuff I see that sometimes God works through people and situations - and sometimes in spite of people and situations.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
PimpjuiceClergy
nope won't happen to much ego, to much disdain, to little love, need to get away from the Euro German, Aryan, Anti Semetic, Ionian Javaian mind set; there is a big world out there ,can't just feeel comfortable with one race of people when moving the WORD.
Edited by PimpjuiceClergyLink to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
Thanks, T-Bone
Yeah, I figure God is always doing the best he can with what He's got.
God can even use an a$$ (Balaam's a$$) to get His Word across to another a$$ (Balaam). But I'm not in favor of becoming an a$$ to get the point across.
If the 1st century church really operated according to The Way Tree that VP promoted as an original revelation to himself, doesn't that dismiss the idea that there was anything original about the revelation?
He also said the communist cells operated that way, & that's why they were so effective. Today, he would say terrorist cells. And he would be right, but it seems to me that communists were operating that way before VP got his original revelation.
I do not believe that it was any kind of revelation to VP. I also do not believe that's the way the 1st century church (after which TWI was "supposed" to pattern itself) operated. I think The Way Tree, as it was presented to us, was pretty much a lie top to bottom. It was, I think, John Lynn, who described The Way Tree as the systematizing of error. THAT, I believe, is the truth.
If I were to try to trace back this revelation to who 1st received it, I would accept Jethro as a possibility - no one afterwards could then qualify. I don't see much difference between what Wierwille described as The Way Tree & how Jethro advised Moses to organize the people. But when Moses instituted his "way tree," it enabled him to "Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God: and thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws, and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk, and the work that they must do" without "Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too heavy for thee; thou art not able to perform it thyself alone."
VP was trying to be a Moses to His (is that a nice fatherly term to your ears or a term of ownership or both - they're both wrong!) people. But he WASN'T Moses, & we WEREN'T the sheep of Israel. He and we were all members in particular in the Body of Christ.
In Moses' day, the "way tree" replaced long lines that Moses waited on all day to give the people the counsel of God while still enabling HIM to answer THEIR needs.
In our day, The Way Tree replaced the joints and bands of the One Body through which Jesus Christ brought increase to the One Body, & INSTEAD enabled VP to be our "father" & "teacher" (both contrary to the advice of Jesus Christ), & the determinator of what all true guidance was.
Systems theorists recognize that people ought to organize themselves into organic rather than mechanically organized systems. People, like all living organisms, don't respond to industrial age laws such as "if you want twice as much product, work you people twice as many hours." They grow & suffer setbacks in waves. Anyone who ever has been sick or trained athletically knows that. The Body of Christ isn't a mechanical structure; it is an organism. It is the masterpiece of God when it comes to organisms.
When I would leave NY in the early 70's & go to HQ, I would FEEL like I had left spiritual life & gone to a place where VP was Moses & we were all Jews. Now I know why & can put it into words (but you'd better have not tried to put it into words to anyone while you were there). It WAS that way. Then, after a while, it seemed right to be the right way. Then, when I would return to NY, it would seem like a confusing mess. But after a while, I would see the spiritual life of the believers, the vitality pulsing through the body there. In a short time my fellowship grew to over 30 people, but I always knew how everyone was doing basically because I quickly became part of the flow of the life of the thing, & basically, we were swimming in the power & victory of God - but an OT perspective with the veil still over the eyes wouldn't see it.
Okay, I've gone on long enough - hope I'm still making sense.
Ain't THAT the truth!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
PimpjuiceClergy
So much hurt here, Craig Matindale got off easy, that punk a$$ bastard got off easy. He was the real pimpjuice, pimpin out Gods people for profit where is the justice. Made your millions and now your laughing at GS. it's not fair dudes.
Edited by PimpjuiceClergyLink to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.