There are Churches out there in cities throughout our country that FAR outshine TWI. They have bands, teach the Bible, have home fellowships, outreach ministries, teen groups where the teens LOVE to go~ with pool tables & coffee/juice bars and of course the BIBLE....
They have specific meetings for Husbands, Wives, Divorced People, Teens, those that want to give, those that have needs, they teach about Health & how to care for yourself as God's Temple.... People are learning the truth and getting answers and healing in their lives, without being CONTROLLED!
People SING PRIASES TO GOD and are excited, moved by the words of how GREAT GOD is, and the wonderful things he's done, some people raise up their hands, some cry, some drop to their knees, most sing!
People learn about the goodness of God and are thankful; IT SHOWS in their actions.
TWI doesn't have any of that. TWI is a business, no place to show any emotions. (Emotions: something God built into us)
Will the young folks change TWI’s business program?
I don't know~ Seems like an impossible thing to do with the crowd they've got there now...
I would think that kids raised in the Way would be very judgemental and rigid with unbelievers. I can't imagine that they could show enough warmth and friendship to 'move the Word' like it happened in the distant past.
These kids have been raised with endless confrontations and expectations of instant obedience,
plus the knowledge and attitude that they are better than everyone else because of the Rightly Divided Word.
I would think that would translate to their social skills. They might be able to act sweet for a while, but I expect it wouldn't be long before the demands and commands would start..
I know that in our fellowship in the nineties, new people would come once or so, but no one stuck around for long.
We have noticed, whenever we've interacted with them, that most seem emotionally
dysfunctional, haven't we?
And even the slightest disagreements have resulted in condescension and the expectation
that the dissenter will toe the line.
And the entire "we can transform the wreckage that have stymied thousands of GSC'ers"
smacks of a knowledge and attitude that they are better than everyone else
more than a realistic appraisal of their assets.
I'm picturing a bird and a plate-glass window.
Plus, if they weren't on a "better than everyone else" kick, trying to bail water out of the
What do YOU think? Can TWI be salvaged by the 'youngsters'?
I think it's pointless to try to save an organization founded by an egotistical lecherous drunk. But if they want to put a new whine in an old Drambui bottle - that's their privilege.
Yes...a great quote about the whine in the drambuie bottle!
Thanks for the posts.
While I'd love to be the one to say that 'the love' still exists in this world and TWI could, and will, be salvaged, I just don't think it can happen. Part of it IS because, like someone mentioned, the times are different now.
Unfortunately, I was accused of being unloving, unforgiving, bitter, and, I think, hard-hearted for not wanting to entertain the idea that the 'youngsters' could swoop in and save the day. Gee...it's not that I don't LONG for those innocent, care free days when all I had to do was go to twig and get hugs...it's just that, as I said before, the TWI that we once believed in was NOT really there...
Lies, all lies...except for the other wonderful 'leafs' who made the place such a sweet place to be! And, of course, I miss that terribly!
While we're discussing things, I'd just like to put forth this. It is not a matter of being negative or being positive IMO. Jesus said you can't put new wine into old wineskins; it bursts the wineskin. He said you HAVE TO put new wine into new wineskins. No amount of positive thinking, believing, thinking it would be nice, or prayer will change that. If it would have, Jesus would have worked that way.
It's a matter of the CONTAINER. When Wierwille tried to incorporate the Body, organize the organism, Way Tree Jesus, WOW the outreach of God's spirit, Way Corps the gift ministries, centralize from whom all was to be fitly joined together, structure the joints and bands, etc, etc, he kicked Jesus out of the way & substituted an old wineskin - old, as in Old Testament old and new industrial age old. The life of the thing was eaten
out of it by a cancer from that point on. THAT structure will not hold new wine. As we were taught, it is not available - Jesus said so.
Now, if you want to go back to before Wierwille did that to the Body of Christ, then, as Xxxx [We hade been talking about someone on teh Yahoo site] said many a time, "There's nothing to it but to do it." Or, if you REALLY want to drop the old & the bad, stop dwelling on the past, & move on, again, that's fine with me, "There's nothing to it but to do it." Drop the old wineskin. THAT'S forgetting the bad & moving on with
the good. Xxxxx didn't need the old wineskin in KS. NY didn't need it. CA didn't need it. South America didn't need it. Europe didn't need it. Africa didn't need it.
People are doing it. Believe God for a couple of people to do it with, & do it. That's how it got done the first time. That's how it always gets done. That's how it is getting done today. I understand Xxxxx's definition of
revival, but remember revival starts w hen one rises with dawn in his eyes and wakens another, & the two a third, until there is enough making enough noise to waken the whole town - anybody know how that butchered version really goes?
I figure there is a point in revival when you don't have to try to get anything to move. The think is like a roller coaster going downhill picking up speed. All you have to do is hold on & have enough balls to not corral
the thing with an artificial structure.
But it starts with 3 people enjoying the love & power of God together, & that is so much more than nobody because when 2 or more are gathered in him name, he is there among them.
I don't think it can be salvaged NOW. I just "scanned" this post....sorry....so if my response is inappropriate just ignore it. I think back in the late 60's and early 70's it was extremely valuable to people. I think people were searching---drugs, alcohol, freedom, God. I think it was very very very valuable back then. But it changed over time and years. What it even was in the mid-80's wasn't close to what it was in the early 70's....like two different places, two different houses so you can't compare. I can understand, actually, kids that "grew up" there....least if they grew up in the late 60's and 70's that would want that "feeling" back....but, no, they won't be able to restore it no matter how hard they try. They might "miss" that era, but that era is gone forever. They won't be able to re-create it, what I think (personally) is why they would want to "salvage" it. You have a time period in your life where it's uforic (sp)....and of course we would all like to live in that fantasy, but reality in the world doesn't make it so. So, I can see how they would want to "salvage" that feeling, memory; but it will never happen and they can't re-create it. It's gone.....as is the 70's.
sogwap - I grew up in the Way in the 70's Those of us that were kids back then are too old to care too much now. You are right the enthusiasm of the 70's was lost by the 80's and I even felt out of place in the Way once I was out of high school. (graduated in 81). The only way to still feel connected was traipse up the ladder of responsibility in the Way. But by the late 90's I was kicked out of the corps, and eventually marked and avoided. I was allowed back in but by the new milennium left of my own free will.
Those of us who were kids in the 70's are in our late 30's to mid 40's and I don't know any of us who would want to revive the dead horse. I am sure there are a few but not in my circle of friends.
The movement in the late '60s-early 70s was a true revival of God, of which VP was able to grab onto a segment through its true leaders - men who were called of God to evangelize, pastor, teach, and undershepard the hundreds of thousands called out and added by God.
A revival, like the other poster said (which I think is a good analogy) is like a roller coaster ride, once it gets going it doesn't stop - you hang on for the ride, which for many of us back then was thrilling. God was alive! We saw it, in the little things and the big things, and most of all, in our hearts.
For something similar to TWI to happen again, you would need a true revival - a movement of God.
And if it does happen again (I tend to think they are once in a century things - several generations are affected), I can guarantee you, it will not be led by anyone in TWI.
TWI is dying. TWI has made a mockery of God's word. TWI are Pharisees who will only lead one away from Christ into the worship of the "Word." TWI's Christ is absent.
No, God will not give TWI another chance, nor will anyone in TWI or their offspring be a leader of another revival, nor will God give TWI the fruits of another revival. TWI will not be allowed to destroy hearts and lives of God's kids ever again. It is drying up, and will continue to dry up. Its days are numbered, their offspring will eventually drift away.
If these kids want to see the "good ole' days" live again, they must shake the dust of TWI off their feet and move on.
TWI even made a mockery of the word 'Revival'... as if God would do nothing OUTSIDE the sanctions of their cornfield~ :(
I don't remember them talking about revival after foundational PFAL. More & more it was like circle the wagons around the cornfield to keep the enemy out. Then it was like circle the wagons to keep people from leaving, & finally, it was like open up the wagons, & get rid of everyone who hasn't had enough sense to leave on their own. Well, maybe not, but that's not TOO much of an exaggeration.
Q. I wonder why HE wanted me to be part of that whole thing?-----A. I give something of that magic to my son. ---sorry . not trying to twist your words, just offering some food for thought. Hopefully I've given some of that "magic" to my own son .
From reading the history of the "Jesus Movement" revival and its beginnings in the mid-to late '60s through the early '70s, it got divided into basically 3 groups. The young man who started it, Lonnie Frisbee, and others, are the two groups who were not influenced by VP - they are still going strong today - the Vineyard and I think its Calvary church? I forget the name. But they have continued to grow over the years and today.
When VP went to CA, he met with Lonnie, the other people and Steve Heefner and Jimmy Doop. He met with the men called to lead this revival, I think it was 5 men total. He played the class for them. Lonnie and the others left after the first few sessions and decided not to throw their hat in the ring with VP. We know what happened with Steve and Jim.
I think the reason we got involved was because the origins of the movement were on the west coast. It spread up the coast, into Washington, Oregon and into Canada, it eventually moved out.
But, VP, the marketer was the only one to have a ready made "product" to spread the Word with. He let people run the class, and as the kids became excited, they went to Kansas and NY and points in between. With the Way tree, he was able to put a structure in place quickly. He was into making money, after living in virtual poverty for years, saw his ship come in and was ready to move quickly. Thus, he was able to get the product rolling. Remember, most of us were kids, HQ had no control over our areas, and we were basically self-governing, with only Steve over us in the east, Jim in the West. Because we had no constraints, it grew massively. VP bided his time and waited a year or so (70-71), let things grow while he sat on his duff on the farm, until there were enough people in place, that he could clamp down, causing Heefner to walk, but by this time - that was ok, he now had other men who could take their place.
I think, as long as VP appointed "leadership" was not in an area, it flourished. Once structure came in, the growth started slowing.
I think, yes, God did want us to hear the Word. For us hippies in that point in time, and in that culture, with classes run by our peers, it was probably the only thing that would appeal to us. God called a segment of our generation, and even though most of us are not now in TWI, our love for God, Christ and his Word has influenced our friends, family and others. I see very few young people turning on to God today, in fact, on some discussion forums I frequent, I see a total hatred for God and religion, and they are open about it. I have to wonder, maybe our generation was the last one to really believe before the end times. I know there are great churches, youth groups, etc., but from where I am, I do not see really, any seeking from too many of the Gen X and Ys out there. I've digressed...
So, from talking to people who worked in the Trunk, I think at one point TWI in the '70s-80 ran something like 10,000 people a year through the PFAL class. Out of those, they lost 2/3rds every year. The people enjoyed it, were blessed, but moved on with their lives, they did not stay. I think a total of maybe 100,000 took the class during the peak years. Which leaves roughly 30,000 people "standing." I was also told, out of that, only 1% went into the corps - which averages out to about 3,000 corps grads, which is about right.
Who were those who hung in? I think many of us were from dysfunctional families and were looking for a loving family, some saw an opportunity for spiritual power, some just needed a place to chill after the hippie drugs and sex. Those who moved on were relatively well adjusted, healthy friends, family life, jobs, etc., they just did not feel the need to get involved.
Now, if there has been no intermediate class, or advanced class, who really would have stayed after awhile? VP had it set so that, if you want to grow, take the next class, and the top class was the advanced class. Note, no one was allowed to share what was in it with someone who hadn't taken it. It kept us around and gave us a goal to pursue - everyone wants advanced spiritual knowledge, they have from the dawn of civilization, whether it be mystery religions, mysticism, inner sanctums of knowledge, etc. By the time you got to the advanced class, you were pretty much indoctrinated into TWI, it became a lifestyle. One of the great things about TWI was the vast network of believers. You found them by the green bumper sticker, no matter where you went. If you wanted to move to another part of the country, there was always a place to crash, people to feed you, while you got settled, and even maybe use their connections to get a job. TWI became a way of life.
I think, if it had just been PFAL, many of us would have moved on. I think, if you look back, God tried to get you to move on. Whether it was through friends, family, teachers, people concerned. But, we would hear none of that.
So, I think God finally made a way for us to leave without losing "face." You have the mass exodus of '86-87 after POP was read. I believe that was of God. Because the peer pressure was so intense to be a "doulos," a dog soldier, comitment, commitment, commitment, that God just made a way for all of us to go together. Before I left, I talked to new corps, the younger generation - late teens, early 20s, and said look, its time to go. They all said, hey, Craig's a great guy, we will support him and the ministry, etc. I realized they were where I was at one time. They would have to grow up to get the blinders off.
Sure enough, 10, 12 years later you had the Allen lawsuit, that was the second open door, God gets the younger generation out - another mass exodus, maybe not en masse like we did it, but they went.
I think God tried individually to get us out. Look back on your time there, there must have been times when you just wanted to walk, but we didn't. When people were sent to you to talk to you, but you listened and ignored them. People who weren't there don't realize the massive peer pressure for those in the Corps. People who were asked to leave even committed suicide, because the shame of letting down God, not being good enough, was too much.
But, as Paul said, either way the Word is preached - we're still here, and that will count for something someday. So, PFAL taught me to read the Bible and have a close relationship with God. That was the good. That and the wonderful people I met.
Simple answer to the question, I think is - VP had a marketing scheme for his classes that tantalized us with more spiritual "knowledge" (we were young and naive) that kept us coming back for more and he was able to market the classes all over the country by using us kids to do it. The other groups didn't have that. Of course, they didn't have an "absent" Christ either.
I haven't read the posts that followed the origional question. I am sure there were abundant reasons why their answer and mine is a resounding NO.
IF they WERE to attempt to teach true biblical teachings they'd have to refute a half century of teaching and practice and I doubt they are willing to give up their heratige quite that quickly.
Not to mention every one of them would have to give up their seat of power and face reality,their Kharma and unhappy former members.
Where will these restless kids begin to rebuild twi?
One God, two or maybe three?
Creation or Evolution or a mix?
Devil spirits or Mental Illness?/ Ministring or Professional help?
Credability or a joke?
I think it would be better for those kids (I'm old ok...) to start addressing basic twi related issues like from whence they came and just why they want to revitalise twi rather than do their own thing
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SafariVista
There are Churches out there in cities throughout our country that FAR outshine TWI. They have bands, teach the Bible, have home fellowships, outreach ministries, teen groups where the teens LOVE to go~ with pool tables & coffee/juice bars and of course the BIBLE....
They have specific meetings for Husbands, Wives, Divorced People, Teens, those that want to give, those that have needs, they teach about Health & how to care for yourself as God's Temple.... People are learning the truth and getting answers and healing in their lives, without being CONTROLLED!
People SING PRIASES TO GOD and are excited, moved by the words of how GREAT GOD is, and the wonderful things he's done, some people raise up their hands, some cry, some drop to their knees, most sing!
People learn about the goodness of God and are thankful; IT SHOWS in their actions.
TWI doesn't have any of that. TWI is a business, no place to show any emotions. (Emotions: something God built into us)
Will the young folks change TWI’s business program?
I don't know~ Seems like an impossible thing to do with the crowd they've got there now...
Good luck
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WordWolf
We have noticed, whenever we've interacted with them, that most seem emotionally
dysfunctional, haven't we?
And even the slightest disagreements have resulted in condescension and the expectation
that the dissenter will toe the line.
And the entire "we can transform the wreckage that have stymied thousands of GSC'ers"
smacks of a knowledge and attitude that they are better than everyone else
more than a realistic appraisal of their assets.
I'm picturing a bird and a plate-glass window.
Plus, if they weren't on a "better than everyone else" kick, trying to bail water out of the
Titanic would seem a bit more futile.
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Catcup
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T-Bone
I think it's pointless to try to save an organization founded by an egotistical lecherous drunk. But if they want to put a new whine in an old Drambui bottle - that's their privilege.
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Tom Strange
Tonto... give that boy a kiss for such a great line...
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Robes
Yes...a great quote about the whine in the drambuie bottle!
Thanks for the posts.
While I'd love to be the one to say that 'the love' still exists in this world and TWI could, and will, be salvaged, I just don't think it can happen. Part of it IS because, like someone mentioned, the times are different now.
Unfortunately, I was accused of being unloving, unforgiving, bitter, and, I think, hard-hearted for not wanting to entertain the idea that the 'youngsters' could swoop in and save the day. Gee...it's not that I don't LONG for those innocent, care free days when all I had to do was go to twig and get hugs...it's just that, as I said before, the TWI that we once believed in was NOT really there...
Lies, all lies...except for the other wonderful 'leafs' who made the place such a sweet place to be! And, of course, I miss that terribly!
But, miss TWI and the lies? Hell NO!
robi
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excathedra
i hope the young loving zealots can expand their horizons
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Tom
Indeed, as I posted on the Yahoo site:
While we're discussing things, I'd just like to put forth this. It is not a matter of being negative or being positive IMO. Jesus said you can't put new wine into old wineskins; it bursts the wineskin. He said you HAVE TO put new wine into new wineskins. No amount of positive thinking, believing, thinking it would be nice, or prayer will change that. If it would have, Jesus would have worked that way.
It's a matter of the CONTAINER. When Wierwille tried to incorporate the Body, organize the organism, Way Tree Jesus, WOW the outreach of God's spirit, Way Corps the gift ministries, centralize from whom all was to be fitly joined together, structure the joints and bands, etc, etc, he kicked Jesus out of the way & substituted an old wineskin - old, as in Old Testament old and new industrial age old. The life of the thing was eaten
out of it by a cancer from that point on. THAT structure will not hold new wine. As we were taught, it is not available - Jesus said so.
Now, if you want to go back to before Wierwille did that to the Body of Christ, then, as Xxxx [We hade been talking about someone on teh Yahoo site] said many a time, "There's nothing to it but to do it." Or, if you REALLY want to drop the old & the bad, stop dwelling on the past, & move on, again, that's fine with me, "There's nothing to it but to do it." Drop the old wineskin. THAT'S forgetting the bad & moving on with
the good. Xxxxx didn't need the old wineskin in KS. NY didn't need it. CA didn't need it. South America didn't need it. Europe didn't need it. Africa didn't need it.
People are doing it. Believe God for a couple of people to do it with, & do it. That's how it got done the first time. That's how it always gets done. That's how it is getting done today. I understand Xxxxx's definition of
revival, but remember revival starts w hen one rises with dawn in his eyes and wakens another, & the two a third, until there is enough making enough noise to waken the whole town - anybody know how that butchered version really goes?
I figure there is a point in revival when you don't have to try to get anything to move. The think is like a roller coaster going downhill picking up speed. All you have to do is hold on & have enough balls to not corral
the thing with an artificial structure.
But it starts with 3 people enjoying the love & power of God together, & that is so much more than nobody because when 2 or more are gathered in him name, he is there among them.
There is nothing to it but to do it.
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WordWolf
Since you asked...
That's attributed to Lawrence Tribble,
circa the American Revolution.
From "The Great Awakening", the poem's called "Awaken."
One man awake, awakens another.
The second awakens his next door brother.
The three awake can rouse a town,
By turning the whole place upside down.
The many awake can make such a fuss,
It finally awakens the rest of us.
One man up with dawn in his eyes,
Surely then multiplies.
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LornaDoone
:D NEVER!
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sogwap51
I don't think it can be salvaged NOW. I just "scanned" this post....sorry....so if my response is inappropriate just ignore it. I think back in the late 60's and early 70's it was extremely valuable to people. I think people were searching---drugs, alcohol, freedom, God. I think it was very very very valuable back then. But it changed over time and years. What it even was in the mid-80's wasn't close to what it was in the early 70's....like two different places, two different houses so you can't compare. I can understand, actually, kids that "grew up" there....least if they grew up in the late 60's and 70's that would want that "feeling" back....but, no, they won't be able to restore it no matter how hard they try. They might "miss" that era, but that era is gone forever. They won't be able to re-create it, what I think (personally) is why they would want to "salvage" it. You have a time period in your life where it's uforic (sp)....and of course we would all like to live in that fantasy, but reality in the world doesn't make it so. So, I can see how they would want to "salvage" that feeling, memory; but it will never happen and they can't re-create it. It's gone.....as is the 70's.
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Tom
Thanks WW
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FreeAtLast
sogwap - I grew up in the Way in the 70's Those of us that were kids back then are too old to care too much now. You are right the enthusiasm of the 70's was lost by the 80's and I even felt out of place in the Way once I was out of high school. (graduated in 81). The only way to still feel connected was traipse up the ladder of responsibility in the Way. But by the late 90's I was kicked out of the corps, and eventually marked and avoided. I was allowed back in but by the new milennium left of my own free will.
Those of us who were kids in the 70's are in our late 30's to mid 40's and I don't know any of us who would want to revive the dead horse. I am sure there are a few but not in my circle of friends.
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Sunesis
No, I do not think any TWI kids can revive it.
The movement in the late '60s-early 70s was a true revival of God, of which VP was able to grab onto a segment through its true leaders - men who were called of God to evangelize, pastor, teach, and undershepard the hundreds of thousands called out and added by God.
A revival, like the other poster said (which I think is a good analogy) is like a roller coaster ride, once it gets going it doesn't stop - you hang on for the ride, which for many of us back then was thrilling. God was alive! We saw it, in the little things and the big things, and most of all, in our hearts.
For something similar to TWI to happen again, you would need a true revival - a movement of God.
And if it does happen again (I tend to think they are once in a century things - several generations are affected), I can guarantee you, it will not be led by anyone in TWI.
TWI is dying. TWI has made a mockery of God's word. TWI are Pharisees who will only lead one away from Christ into the worship of the "Word." TWI's Christ is absent.
No, God will not give TWI another chance, nor will anyone in TWI or their offspring be a leader of another revival, nor will God give TWI the fruits of another revival. TWI will not be allowed to destroy hearts and lives of God's kids ever again. It is drying up, and will continue to dry up. Its days are numbered, their offspring will eventually drift away.
If these kids want to see the "good ole' days" live again, they must shake the dust of TWI off their feet and move on.
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Tom Strange
good points Sunesis... I think you've stated what a lot of us think and feel about it...
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SafariVista
I agree with Sunesis...
TWI even made a mockery of the word 'Revival'... as if God would do nothing OUTSIDE the sanctions of their cornfield~ :(
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Tom
I don't remember them talking about revival after foundational PFAL. More & more it was like circle the wagons around the cornfield to keep the enemy out. Then it was like circle the wagons to keep people from leaving, & finally, it was like open up the wagons, & get rid of everyone who hasn't had enough sense to leave on their own. Well, maybe not, but that's not TOO much of an exaggeration.
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excathedra
what an interesting way to look at it, sunesis
do you think god wanted me there ? i think i was already born again saved what have you before twi
wonder why he wanted me part of that whole thing
i think i do feel really great about it. not just because of friends but because of something deep inside me that's never left me
and i give something of that magic to my son
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waysider
Q. I wonder why HE wanted me to be part of that whole thing?-----A. I give something of that magic to my son. ---sorry . not trying to twist your words, just offering some food for thought. Hopefully I've given some of that "magic" to my own son .
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Sunesis
From reading the history of the "Jesus Movement" revival and its beginnings in the mid-to late '60s through the early '70s, it got divided into basically 3 groups. The young man who started it, Lonnie Frisbee, and others, are the two groups who were not influenced by VP - they are still going strong today - the Vineyard and I think its Calvary church? I forget the name. But they have continued to grow over the years and today.
When VP went to CA, he met with Lonnie, the other people and Steve Heefner and Jimmy Doop. He met with the men called to lead this revival, I think it was 5 men total. He played the class for them. Lonnie and the others left after the first few sessions and decided not to throw their hat in the ring with VP. We know what happened with Steve and Jim.
I think the reason we got involved was because the origins of the movement were on the west coast. It spread up the coast, into Washington, Oregon and into Canada, it eventually moved out.
But, VP, the marketer was the only one to have a ready made "product" to spread the Word with. He let people run the class, and as the kids became excited, they went to Kansas and NY and points in between. With the Way tree, he was able to put a structure in place quickly. He was into making money, after living in virtual poverty for years, saw his ship come in and was ready to move quickly. Thus, he was able to get the product rolling. Remember, most of us were kids, HQ had no control over our areas, and we were basically self-governing, with only Steve over us in the east, Jim in the West. Because we had no constraints, it grew massively. VP bided his time and waited a year or so (70-71), let things grow while he sat on his duff on the farm, until there were enough people in place, that he could clamp down, causing Heefner to walk, but by this time - that was ok, he now had other men who could take their place.
I think, as long as VP appointed "leadership" was not in an area, it flourished. Once structure came in, the growth started slowing.
I think, yes, God did want us to hear the Word. For us hippies in that point in time, and in that culture, with classes run by our peers, it was probably the only thing that would appeal to us. God called a segment of our generation, and even though most of us are not now in TWI, our love for God, Christ and his Word has influenced our friends, family and others. I see very few young people turning on to God today, in fact, on some discussion forums I frequent, I see a total hatred for God and religion, and they are open about it. I have to wonder, maybe our generation was the last one to really believe before the end times. I know there are great churches, youth groups, etc., but from where I am, I do not see really, any seeking from too many of the Gen X and Ys out there. I've digressed...
So, from talking to people who worked in the Trunk, I think at one point TWI in the '70s-80 ran something like 10,000 people a year through the PFAL class. Out of those, they lost 2/3rds every year. The people enjoyed it, were blessed, but moved on with their lives, they did not stay. I think a total of maybe 100,000 took the class during the peak years. Which leaves roughly 30,000 people "standing." I was also told, out of that, only 1% went into the corps - which averages out to about 3,000 corps grads, which is about right.
Who were those who hung in? I think many of us were from dysfunctional families and were looking for a loving family, some saw an opportunity for spiritual power, some just needed a place to chill after the hippie drugs and sex. Those who moved on were relatively well adjusted, healthy friends, family life, jobs, etc., they just did not feel the need to get involved.
Now, if there has been no intermediate class, or advanced class, who really would have stayed after awhile? VP had it set so that, if you want to grow, take the next class, and the top class was the advanced class. Note, no one was allowed to share what was in it with someone who hadn't taken it. It kept us around and gave us a goal to pursue - everyone wants advanced spiritual knowledge, they have from the dawn of civilization, whether it be mystery religions, mysticism, inner sanctums of knowledge, etc. By the time you got to the advanced class, you were pretty much indoctrinated into TWI, it became a lifestyle. One of the great things about TWI was the vast network of believers. You found them by the green bumper sticker, no matter where you went. If you wanted to move to another part of the country, there was always a place to crash, people to feed you, while you got settled, and even maybe use their connections to get a job. TWI became a way of life.
I think, if it had just been PFAL, many of us would have moved on. I think, if you look back, God tried to get you to move on. Whether it was through friends, family, teachers, people concerned. But, we would hear none of that.
So, I think God finally made a way for us to leave without losing "face." You have the mass exodus of '86-87 after POP was read. I believe that was of God. Because the peer pressure was so intense to be a "doulos," a dog soldier, comitment, commitment, commitment, that God just made a way for all of us to go together. Before I left, I talked to new corps, the younger generation - late teens, early 20s, and said look, its time to go. They all said, hey, Craig's a great guy, we will support him and the ministry, etc. I realized they were where I was at one time. They would have to grow up to get the blinders off.
Sure enough, 10, 12 years later you had the Allen lawsuit, that was the second open door, God gets the younger generation out - another mass exodus, maybe not en masse like we did it, but they went.
I think God tried individually to get us out. Look back on your time there, there must have been times when you just wanted to walk, but we didn't. When people were sent to you to talk to you, but you listened and ignored them. People who weren't there don't realize the massive peer pressure for those in the Corps. People who were asked to leave even committed suicide, because the shame of letting down God, not being good enough, was too much.
But, as Paul said, either way the Word is preached - we're still here, and that will count for something someday. So, PFAL taught me to read the Bible and have a close relationship with God. That was the good. That and the wonderful people I met.
Simple answer to the question, I think is - VP had a marketing scheme for his classes that tantalized us with more spiritual "knowledge" (we were young and naive) that kept us coming back for more and he was able to market the classes all over the country by using us kids to do it. The other groups didn't have that. Of course, they didn't have an "absent" Christ either.
I've rambled, I hope this makes sense.
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herbiejuan
Can TWI be salvaged?
NO
I haven't read the posts that followed the origional question. I am sure there were abundant reasons why their answer and mine is a resounding NO.
IF they WERE to attempt to teach true biblical teachings they'd have to refute a half century of teaching and practice and I doubt they are willing to give up their heratige quite that quickly.
Not to mention every one of them would have to give up their seat of power and face reality,their Kharma and unhappy former members.
I don't think they are there yet.
Mikey
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herbiejuan
Oh yes then there is the idea I had...
Where will these restless kids begin to rebuild twi?
One God, two or maybe three?
Creation or Evolution or a mix?
Devil spirits or Mental Illness?/ Ministring or Professional help?
Credability or a joke?
I think it would be better for those kids (I'm old ok...) to start addressing basic twi related issues like from whence they came and just why they want to revitalise twi rather than do their own thing
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topoftheworld
Great synophis, Sunesis.
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dmiller
Sunesis -- you can *ramble* on my screen aneeee-tiiiime.
:)
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