Way 2 NoWhere

[Robes]

There is a discussion going on at The-Way@YahooGroups on how viable the idea of the latest Way 'youngsters' (young people who have grown up in TWI) returning TWI to it's former glory is. I don't usually like to cross sites and carry on discussions, but there were a couple of points that were very interesting that I thought I might like to have some of ya'll's opinions on it all.

The original question (and I will leave out the lady's name who posted it because I haven't asked her permission to quote her...and I will change it up a bit so it's not a direct quote) was something like,

"I've talked to some of the TWI youth and there seems to be a renewed vision for TWI as they rise up. They have a fresh outlook and love for God and don't take much crap from the 'older generation'. Is TWI salvageable?"

The person she asked this of, someone who's written about TWI in the past, stated,

"You say "they don't take much crap from the 'older generation.'" But the 'older generation' was

interested in reform, while the new generation has been programmed to refuse to listen to anything

these "sticks" have to say."

"TWI salvagable? Not a chance, in my humble opinion."

My response is this:

"Please allow me to chime in on your question, and K's answer, to say that I, too, doubt that there is a chance that TWI is salvageable.

Why?

Well, because there are so many of us who remember how it used to be...or at least, how we THOUGHT it used to be. It was a fantasy land for so many of us. It never really existed. But it what we thought it was was incredible.

We could have anything we wanted just by 'believing'. Everyone was 'good' if they took PFAL and went to fellowship. We aspired to be a Twig 'Leader' and it was the greatest thing. We could 'love' people with the 'love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation' and that had no sexuall connotations whatsoever. We could be a 'family'. We could 'forgive and forget' completely and absolutely. We could put things in the 'lockbox'. We all believed the same thing. We just absolutely were 'likeminded' on the 'Word' and there was no arguement. We were responsible to 'obey' leadership. If they were wrong and we 'obeyed' then we were 'covered' by God. Our thoughts were the same. Our language was the same. Wasn't it great?

No. It was not.

We now have seen how dangerous all that thinking was, and can be. There is no fantasy land that is a true place. To be safe, one MUST question. One MUST make their own decisions. One MUST see how vitally important it is to make one's own decisions based on what they have learned in life. We MUST retain our identities and not conform to a cult's mind set and habit patterns.

I loved TWI when I was in it. I was in my early 20's. The Cinderella story was still able to be true for me then. It isn't now. Not for me, not for most of us. We know too much and we have learned too much.

Good God, if you can't trust and believe in the VERY PEOPLE who represent God to you, who can you believe in? And why should we?

Unfortunately those young TWIers may try to put together a semblence of the group we once knew but I hope to God that anyone and everyone reaches out and convinces them that it's the wrong thing to do.

How many times does one need to see utter failure before realizing something won't work? TWI had two dynamic, charismatic leaders who eventually became corrupted and toxic. Do you all really think it can ever come back and be clean and pure? There is no way. Not if the man who created it, loved it, and nurtured it himself couldn't stay pure. No one can do it. No one.

If we want that sort of thing, we must be content to waiting for the Gathering Together. It won't happen until then. It is not, in my opinion, available for a group to be completely good and idyllic in this day and age...not while we are still human. It's the human faults, the very things talked about in the bible, that keep a group from being Godly and all good. The greed. The lust. The jealousy. The struggle for power. The FEAR. And boy oh boy, if there ever was a group that was led by FEAR, TWI is that group.

Nope, as long as we are human, TWI can't be brought back...at least not in the way that we once believed it was."

What do YOU think? Can TWI be salvaged by the 'youngsters'? I'd especially love to hear an answer to this FROM some of the youngsters.

Robi

[Jim]

TWI salvagable?

What do you mean by salvagable? If you mean thousands going WOW and tens of thousands at the ROA, several twigs per town instead of 2 per state, um, no.

Do you mean a 2 or 3 percent growth in abundant sharing so that Rosy and her cronies can continue to live in the luxury they are accustomed too, yes. Definitely possible.

The internet is Eve's apple, the tree of knowledge about cults. I don't believe *any* cult can see the kind of growth that was possible before the internet.

[FreeAtLast]

As I said on the group and will re-iterate here Robi

I have to agree with you. It is unsalvagable, the original heart brought in

by the California hippies will never be regained. The Egotisitcal nature of

the ultimate leaders (VPW and Craig) has been passed down throughout

the generations of the Way and that is what is cultivated in the individuals

who decide to stand with the organization. If your personality doesn't

match with that be prepared to be shunned.

[dmiller]

What do YOU think? Can TWI be salvaged by the 'youngsters'? I'd especially love to hear an answer to this FROM some of the youngsters.

Robi

Uhmmmmm --- no.

Twi has chosen to build their *house* on quicksand.

*Solid Rock* is not in their vocabulary.

No *youngster* here, but given the demise of twi 1 and 2,

I don't expect #3 to right the wrongs.

No matter how well it is sugar-coated. <_<

(Just my IMO).

[WordWolf]

[WordWolf responds in brackets and boldface,

and trims down the original post.]

"I've talked to some of the TWI youth and there seems to be a renewed vision for TWI as they rise up. They have a fresh outlook and love for God and don't take much crap from the 'older generation'. Is TWI salvageable?"

[As someone said, that depends on one's vision of 'salvageable'.

The typical one is of the fictional Shangri-La that is often told and recounted of

the "good old days" of twi. The idea there is that a few changes will produce

the sword from the stone, and we will have Camelot once more.

The problem is that this was a FICTION that was inflicted on the legitimate Christians.

I've been going over the accounts of those who were there-including vpw himself

and lcm himself. Here's the short-form of what happened.

vpw wanted to set himself up as a minister for reasons of his own. He had rather

limited success. Then he found JE Stiles in 1953, who lead him into speaking in tongues

as a personal experience with God. Then he also found BG Leonard, who taught a

class for Christians which instructed on the Holy Spirit field.

vpw took the work of both men, placed his own name on both, and announced it was

"his" class and "his" book. Later, he added from Bullinger's books and padded

Leonard's one class into 3 classes. All of that was done that way (with his name

and removing theirs for the most part) specifically to elevate vpw's name,

and to give vpw a marketable product- classes and books.

Success was limited despite a quality product...

Until vpw found some Christian hippies. He impressed them with "his unique"

Bible knowledge (taken from the aforementioned Christians) and began putting

out feelers for extramarital sex. Some Christian hippies were impressed with the

material-and were told that vpw had a connection with God that hadn't been seen

since the First Century AD and that's where all the special knowledge was from.

So, they joined up and became the organization.

About 2 years later, vpw has seen explosive growth in the organization, and the

hippies are running classes and home Bible meetings, and having a great time.

vpw decides to run a "special" program, and starts the way corps.

(He has no background in any sort of training program, but this is what he

WANTED to do, so despite the complete failure of the first attempt-

the "zero corps"-it goes forward.) After a few years of this, vpw

then uses the corps to change things.

Now, vpw goes to the loose confederations of affiliated Christians on both coasts

(and other places in the US) and announces that they will now have a stratified,

ordered hierarchy. They will take their orders from hq (him), and all the money

will be sent to hq (him). The charismatic leaders of the early Christian hippies

of the time are kicked to the curb. Love and freedom is replaced by rules and

regulations.

Meanwhile, at hq, vpw is instilling blind loyalty to vpw when and where he can,

and singling out women to try to have sex with (willingly or no), and men to

help him cover his tracks-even if it means he has to share some of the women

with them.

All this explains why there's 2 types of experiences in twi.

There were 2 twi's in effect at the same time.

A) the Christian hippies with the Christian twi

B) vpw with the legalistic twi

Locally, some people were still with the Christian hippies and those they taught.

Those were some fantastic experiences and places and things.

At hq, vpw ran a "tight ship" that bore little resemblance to the local blessings

that had convinced people that twi was worthwhile.

Like root-rot, this legalism permeated everyplace because vpw designed it

so- where the corps went, those who learned the legalism brought it with them.

So, all the root locales had it, and the corps sent locally had it.

Want to get to what was best in twi?

You have to remove twi itself from the equation entirely.

No vpw and his name-worship.

No arrogance and "only we have the truth"-

it was never true in the EARLY days, and isnt true NOW.

If you want what was best, you'll have to follow in the footsteps of the greatest

Christians twi ever saw-

Christian hippies, all of them.

That means leave all organization and rules behind, period.

Operate as Christian hippies.

twi can NEVER operate like that-it was never designed to do so,

and vpw strangled out that method as soon as he could.

If vpw could have gotten the numbers without the love and freedom

in the first place, he would have saved the effort.

So,

the kids are salvageable-

and the people are the only thing that count there, anyway.

The DOCTRINE and TEACHING certainly isn't impressive nowadays.

That leaves the rules, legalism and arrogance.

God won't care about any of that.]

The person she asked this of, someone who's written about TWI in the past, stated,

"You say "they don't take much crap from the 'older generation.'" But the 'older generation' was

interested in reform, while the new generation has been programmed to refuse to listen to anything

these "sticks" have to say."

"TWI salvagable? Not a chance, in my humble opinion."

My response is this:

"Please allow me to chime in on your question, and K's answer, to say that I, too, doubt that there is a chance that TWI is salvageable.

Why?

Well, because there are so many of us who remember how it used to be...or at least, how we THOUGHT it used to be. It was a fantasy land for so many of us. It never really existed. But it what we thought it was was incredible.

We could have anything we wanted just by 'believing'. Everyone was 'good' if they took PFAL and went to fellowship. We aspired to be a Twig 'Leader' and it was the greatest thing. We could 'love' people with the 'love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation' and that had no sexuall connotations whatsoever. We could be a 'family'. We could 'forgive and forget' completely and absolutely. We could put things in the 'lockbox'. We all believed the same thing. We just absolutely were 'likeminded' on the 'Word' and there was no arguement. We were responsible to 'obey' leadership. If they were wrong and we 'obeyed' then we were 'covered' by God. Our thoughts were the same. Our language was the same. Wasn't it great?

No. It was not.

We now have seen how dangerous all that thinking was, and can be. There is no fantasy land that is a true place. To be safe, one MUST question. One MUST make their own decisions. One MUST see how vitally important it is to make one's own decisions based on what they have learned in life. We MUST retain our identities and not conform to a cult's mind set and habit patterns.

I loved TWI when I was in it. I was in my early 20's. The Cinderella story was still able to be true for me then. It isn't now. Not for me, not for most of us. We know too much and we have learned too much.

Good God, if you can't trust and believe in the VERY PEOPLE who represent God to you, who can you believe in? And why should we?

[bingo.

twi was based on truths assembled carefully and built on a framework of LIES.

twi as a group-and vpw as leader- deliberately deceived everyone.

At its core, twi was based on lies. Lies will NOT sustain Christians.

Add to that the unawareness of the rot at the base of the tree meant that

some people remember twi as much nicer than vpw's reality-

since their reality on the field was much nicer.

Add to that the tendency for people to recall "the good old days" as

much better than they were.

The end result is like trying to "get back" to a cartoon.

The twi they want to "get back to" never existed,

and the one that existed is not WORTH getting back to.]

Unfortunately those young TWIers may try to put together a semblence of the group we once knew but I hope to God that anyone and everyone reaches out and convinces them that it's the wrong thing to do.

How many times does one need to see utter failure before realizing something won't work? TWI had two dynamic, charismatic leaders who eventually became corrupted and toxic. Do you all really think it can ever come back and be clean and pure? There is no way. Not if the man who created it, loved it, and nurtured it himself couldn't stay pure. No one can do it. No one.

If we want that sort of thing, we must be content to waiting for the Gathering Together. It won't happen until then. It is not, in my opinion, available for a group to be completely good and idyllic in this day and age...not while we are still human. It's the human faults, the very things talked about in the bible, that keep a group from being Godly and all good. The greed. The lust. The jealousy. The struggle for power. The FEAR. And boy oh boy, if there ever was a group that was led by FEAR, TWI is that group.

Nope, as long as we are human, TWI can't be brought back...at least not in the way that we once believed it was."

What do YOU think? Can TWI be salvaged by the 'youngsters'? I'd especially love to hear an answer to this FROM some of the youngsters.

Robi

[The only way to "save it" would be to completely leave twi

en masse, and make a new, casual group like the old Christian hippies.

That would save those who left.

Any attempts to reform the organization will be hampered automatically

by inertia and the horrible history they'll be struggling under,

plus those in power will not want to hand over the loot and the power.

They have the money, the power and the women.

What possible motivation would move them to share that?

Christian virtue? THEM? Don't make me laugh.

The ORIGINAL Christians in twi coudn't do that.

Want to bang your head against a stone wall? Go right ahead.]

[skyrider]

"I've talked to some of the TWI youth and there seems to be a renewed vision for TWI as they rise up. They have a fresh outlook and love for God and don't take much crap from the 'older generation'. Is TWI salvageable?"

Webster defines "salvage" as......the voluntary rescue of a ship or its cargo at sea from peril such as fire, shipwreck, capture, etc.

If some youth have a "fresh outlook and love for God"......why would they want to waste time on a "salvage mission?" Bigger than any old-wineskins trip........this is an old-wineSHIP trip.

A much better idea would be to purchase a fast speed boat.........and take their "fresh outlook" to new horizons and distant shores.

[rhino]

Later, he added from Bullinger's books and padded Leonard's one class into 3 classes.

My Dad used to read Reinhold Niebuhr and even corresponded with him some. He read lotsa other Christian stuff too, but after he took PFAL, his only comment was "He sure repeats himself a lot, doesn't he." Padding, good point, I hadn't thought of it that way, but it was like a high school kid trying to stretch his 40 word essay into the required 200 words.

At hq, vpw ran a "tight ship" that bore little resemblance to the local blessings

that had convinced people that twi was worthwhile.

So the way tree analogy was right in some ways ... "the twig, that's where the growth is" Once you got into the branch and and limb guys, things were rigid, and of course the root and trunk never changed. So if you could somehow renew the life at the twigs, the trunk would continue to try to suck the life (money) out of them while not providing any real nourishment in return. It's a way tree where all the suckers were allowed to grow. LOL (OK, the sucker part doesn't fit, we were the suckers for sending in money, but the root folks are suckers in that they suck the life from the rest of the tree)

I wonder if you told the higher ups you were not going to collect money for them, how long before they'd cut you off their tree... and that would be a good thing.

Edited August 6, 2006 by rhino

[Bramble]

I would think that kids raised in the Way would be very judgemental and rigid with unbelievers. I can't imagine that they could show enough warmth and friendship to 'move the Word' like it happened in the distant past. These kids have been raised with endless confrontations and expectations of instant obedience, plus the knowledge and attitude that they are better than everyone else because of the Rightly Divided Word. I would think that would translate to their social skills. They might be able to act sweet for a while, but I expect it wouldn't be long before the demands and commands would start..

I know that in our fellowship in the nineties, new people would come once or so, but no one stuck around for long.

[Bramble]

Can the Way be salvaged? I don't think so. I think it will continue to wither and die off.

It could survive I guess if they did a Church of God deal, and moved to more orthodox Christian doctrine. But the structure and authority of leadership in TWI is something that would have to change, and I doubt that the leaders want to give up their power. Plus, most people in TWI are middle aged and have lost their dynamic youth and energy.

Edited August 6, 2006 by Bramble

[markomalley]

Uhmmmmm --- no.

Twi has chosen to build their *house* on quicksand.

*Solid Rock* is not in their vocabulary.

No *youngster* here, but given the demise of twi 1 and 2,

I don't expect #3 to right the wrongs.

No matter how well it is sugar-coated. <_<

(Just my IMO).

Hear, Hear!!!!

The only thing I'd add is "why would anybody want to?"

[Belle]

Two things come to mind here:

WordWolf's signature line

Those who forget/ignore the past are doomed to repeat it (or something like that)

Those kids would be much better off organizing a mutiny and starting their own group cherry picking the very few redeemable bits about TWI that are/were good. After all, that's all vee pee did, isn't it? THEN they can actually give credit where credit is due...... starting with all the men vee pee plagarized. Who knows? Going through all their teachings, they may even find MORE gems to use as foundational material for their "foundation".

[waysider]

Remember WOODSTOCK #2 where a bunch of corporate "suits" tried to reenact and revisit the original event? --------OH YEAH! ------That worked(not).

[George Aar]

Waysider, INDEED.

Trying to recreate or revitalize a spontaneous event or movement is doomed for failure from the outset.

What these kids don't seem to realize is that the reason WayWorld grew and prospered when it did was a direct result of the TIMES. We'd just been through the turmoil of the 60s. We all had a profound distrust of authority and anti-establishment thought was rampant. We were in the midst of a huge cultural rift between the generations and concepts like the hippies came up with actually made sense to us (O.K. so we weren't terribly circumspect, know any kids that are?).

Wierwille came along and made a serendipitous connection with the counter-culture kids, tailored his shpiel to appeal to their sense of alienation from the status quo, gave them a pseudo "cause" to give meaning to their lives, and added a strong dose of "license" for bait, and VOILA! WayWorld was born!

You're not going to recreate that period of time. Something else may come along that clicks with the current crop of youthful, exuberant, and NAIVE young adults that is more appropriate for the times. But you're not going to breath new life into a stodgy, OLD, midwestern cornfield cult. It's time has come an gone - Thankfully...

[CoolWaters]

The Way International as an organization is still alive and doing not too badly according to latest financial reports available. IMO.

TWI doesn't need numbers to exist. Dollars do just fine. Most dollars reproduce themselves once a certain level is reached...if invested and/or used well. Once the dollars start reproducing, who needs people?

So, imo, the question of 'salvaging' twi as an organization is not a viable question because twi the organization has not been shipwrecked or in peril or in any other way knocked out of operation.

So what is left to salvage? The fellowship? The teaching? The abundant life? The research?

As has been pointed out, these things were imaginary as it concerns twi. WE, us all, THE PEOPLE, made the good things happen with one another. TWI the organization had nothing to do with anything good happening. The organization was set up to be a financial tool. Nothing more, nothing less. And it has served its purpose and served it quite well.

Beyond that, the stuff that made us all love being twi was what WE brought to the table.

So, unless WE left that stuff in the organization when WE left the organization, I'd say that there isn't anything to salvage.

I think most of us are doing quite well NOW with what we thought we were getting in twi: friendship, fellowship, camaraderie, intellectual and spiritual stimulation, a place to hang out, people to listen to and to listen to us, laughter, tears, prayers, victories, losses, all the stuff of life.

I mean, who needs some stupid organization designed to suck money from people? Those who do need such an organization will not bring anything to the table except what was on the table to begin with: usery at an cost.

IMO.

[bliss]

Knowing many of these "kids", I know that their hearts are right. Having said that, I also know that they think that TWI's doctrine is RIGHT.

Their heart is to "get back the LOVE". I applaud their determination. Unfortunately, its efforts will only produce rotten fruit in the end.

Use any analogy you like....................sand foundation is one.

Dead roots is another.

They are trying to perfume the ministry, because the "practice" is all they see as smelling.

They have NO IDEA what poop lie underneath.

:(

[FreeAtLast]

CW: Great points. I love what you have said. There IS NOTHING to salvage because it's all out here on sites like GS and the other groups out here where we keep the comraderie, friendship and love we had contributed back then alive. There's nothing left to salvage because it was never really destroyed, just moved outside of the organization. Great thoughts.

The way will remain wealthy and legalistic, and we out here will still provide the love, prayers, support, friendship and even doctrine (when desired) alive for each other.

So maybe what happened in the Way was good for God. Because we are all free to live for him in the Grace he intended for us to live.

God I love what you said CW. It all makes so much sence.

[skyrider]

I mean, who needs some stupid organization designed to suck money from people? Those who do need such an organization will not bring anything to the table except what was on the table to begin with: usery at an cost.

Who needs it............the twi STAFFERS.

A major portion of the 50-something/60-something crowd KNOW that it's legalism & leachery have contributed to twi's "desert existence." Sure, there's a bit of existence there in the extremes of heat and cold.....IF you're a snake, scorpion or vulture.

[skyrider]

Waysider, INDEED.

Trying to recreate or revitalize a spontaneous event or movement is doomed for failure from the outset.

What these kids don't seem to realize is that the reason WayWorld grew and prospered when it did was a direct result of the TIMES. We'd just been through the turmoil of the 60s. We all had a profound distrust of authority and anti-establishment thought was rampant. We were in the midst of a huge cultural rift between the generations and concepts like the hippies came up with actually made sense to us (O.K. so we weren't terribly circumspect, know any kids that are?).

Wierwille came along and made a serendipitous connection with the counter-culture kids, tailored his shpiel to appeal to their sense of alienation from the status quo, gave them a pseudo "cause" to give meaning to their lives, and added a strong dose of "license" for bait, and VOILA! WayWorld was born!

You're not going to recreate that period of time. Something else may come along that clicks with the current crop of youthful, exuberant, and NAIVE young adults that is more appropriate for the times. But you're not going to breath new life into a stodgy, OLD, midwestern cornfield cult. It's time has come an gone - Thankfully...

George.......very well said.

Thanks.

[Tom Strange]

I don't think it will Robi... I'm of the feeling that it'll continue to die... as both the roots and the twigs continue to die off...

(hello by the way)

oh yeah... and what Geo said as well... different times, one of the effects being that it's the "information age" now...

[Catcup]

"You can't solve a problem with the same level of thinking that created it."

--A. Einstein

So, no. They cannot salvage it. They are captured by the idea that it can be brought back to its former glory. That is assuming what they believed was glory was something truly glorious.

What they are trying to bring back is a fantasy, and they are trying to do it based on erroneous foundations, by erroneous thinking.

[Godisgoodalways]

You can't put new wine in old wine skins

[Ductape]

Aww, to be young and indestructible and infallible again! To return to that youthful lust of being better than those that have walked the path before you. While I do not doubt that this group of young people are very capable and talented, I will deny that their generation is greater than ours which many of us have already wasted decades trying to raise the TWI phoenix from the ashes of its self destruction.

Each generation should become wiser learning from its elders, not full of ego thinking they can do the impossible.

[Shellon]

Salvaged? No

[Catcup]

While I do not doubt that this group of young people are very capable and talented, I will deny that their generation is greater than ours which many of us have already wasted decades trying to raise the TWI phoenix from the ashes of its self destruction.

Each generation should become wiser learning from its elders, not full of ego thinking they can do the impossible.

Amen.

[likeaneagle]

It was built on foundation that has a major crack.JC is not the Cornerstone anymore..

Its upon sinking sand..hey..Isnt there a song about 'Sinking Sand'.