I'm reflecting on some of the posts on this thread about the nature of mankind and how "mainstream" is used to label groups, and how all groups function similarly.
Sure in some sense this is how the world works. Whenever you have two people banding together there's the start of politics. Get a crowd together around a common nobler motive and there's a religion. And religion and politics are at the root of the worst evil in mankind - killings, abuse, etc.
Sure if you look at groups from a high enough level they are all similar. And that also me be the explanation behind many former TWI followers having an aversion to organized religion.
But Jesus message was not to band together and form abusive relationships where you allow the baser elements of humanity to function. His message was different. He came to save mankind from that kind of thing. And in that is where the line has to be drawn. Are people being saved from the darker side of humanity that can be seen? Or is that darkness going on in secret while outwardly appearing with a godly veneer? To me that is the dividing line between genuine Christianity and hypocrisy.
I'm a Christian, a follower, a believer, a member of and participant in. Now, I haven't got a tattoo on my buutt of the Pope or any specific denomination so I'm sure I'm "not" something normal and viable to someone. But overall I'm a fully qualified member of the Christian faith, belief structure and religion, dues paid and I get the magazine and email updates.
I've also been known to bite the hand that tries to feed me.
Christianity meets all the requirements and then some to be a cult. Big azz cult, too. It is a cult with many different sects. "It" is by no means the norm or the expected behavior in this world despite what We of Krestos like to say.
Members of the cult say that true blue followers mean no harm and would never do wrong to anyone, we're love pups, big fuzzy love pups.
Others outside the cult don't necessarily think that way - do they? They think we're delusioned and dismally mired in a cult of condemnation that has, by creating a big enough problem ("sin") has built it's own marketing machine to deliver the solution, to it's own continuance and profit. And that's the ones who like us.
I often think that most people for the most part think more or less about the same as I do - and have the same basic moral and ethical principles in play.
I'm often reminded that isn't the case or even close to true - that many people of all religious and non-religious stripe think differently. On the other end of my spectrum I see people who will steal, cheat, lie, destroy and just as soon swerve to run over a dog as to avoid it - and they're thinking has nothing to do with any "religious" basis at all. It's just the way they are.
Now I know this is GS, the exWayfer-other-story site, so I get the focus. I'm just sayin' every once in awhile in the midst of the similies, metaphors and what have you that IMO the Ultimate Answers don't lie in figuring out all the ways the Way was wrong and writing for the 100th time and the 1,000th way another way to say the same thing.
But that's me - I don't do that. I have my own dead horses I beat though so I do feel qualified when it comes to that.
I'm just sayin' every once in awhile in the midst of the similies, metaphors and what have you that IMO the Ultimate Answers don't lie in figuring out all the ways the Way was wrong and writing for the 100th time and the 1,000th way another way to say the same thing.
But that's me - I don't do that. I have my own dead horses I beat though so I do feel qualified when it comes to that.
Well, at least try to remember for folks like me that have recently left the way, a dead horse to you is a prancing young stallion to me. I have no doubt that most all of what I post has been covered before. But I am not posting for the good of the group, I am posting to sort out the spaghetti noodles in my head and a lot of the perspectives and experiences on GSC has really helped me move on and start a new life.
Hopefully, soon I will be able to move on past GSC as well. Well just have to see how that comes along.
The best thing I can advise and have advised is really just basic Stuff 101: review one's thinking to family, the blood relative kind. Review the social network one functions in and how it's prioritized. Review one's beliefs in light of what they really think is right as best as can be done.
I know those in the Way right now, who are active participants, who completely recognize good/bad and have redirected their lives to accomodate their life's goals and desires, which do include pursuing fellowship and teaching from the Way when and how they choose to. For them it works. And they're great people too.
I don't accept kicking at people forever simply because they don't choose to come to this website and participate. (that's not directed at you, just a general comment).
GS is not the center of the universe, and in a truly "free" life one is free to choose the avenues they feel are best to live life.
This board is good for expression and observation, and discussion to a lesser degree. You can only discuss something with those that are here and it's not practical to insist that everyone or anyone come here to do that nor I'd suspect is it right.
So it works, as well as it works. Better some work than no work, so to speak.
Just sayin' - idle observatin', 'sall.
But for moi, I don't see any big comparison to the JW's, maybe some but my point was (point?? wassat!?) that the comparisons would be wide applied to many different groups or organizations. Many are similar to the JW's, in many categories.
Far as I'm concerned the JW's are good to go as they are. Weird? - but compared....to what?
The best thing I can advise and have advised is really just basic Stuff 101: review one's thinking to family, the blood relative kind. Review the social network one functions in and how it's prioritized. Review one's beliefs in light of what they really think is right as best as can be done.
I know those in the Way right now, who are active participants, who completely recognize good/bad and have redirected their lives to accomodate their life's goals and desires, which do include pursuing fellowship and teaching from the Way when and how they choose to. For them it works. And they're great people too.
I don't accept kicking at people forever simply because they don't choose to come to this website and participate. (that's not directed at you, just a general comment).
GS is not the center of the universe, and in a truly "free" life one is free to choose the avenues they feel are best to live life.
This board is good for expression and observation, and discussion to a lesser degree. You can only discuss something with those that are here and it's not practical to insist that everyone or anyone come here to do that nor I'd suspect is it right.
So it works, as well as it works. Better some work than no work, so to speak.
Just sayin' - idle observatin', 'sall.
But for moi, I don't see any big comparison to the JW's, maybe some but my point was (point?? wassat!?) that the comparisons would be wide applied to many different groups or organizations. Many are similar to the JW's, in many categories.
Far as I'm concerned the JW's are good to go as they are. Weird? - but compared....to what?
Hey socks.
I agree with you w/r to family and social circles. Those are healthy avenues to pursue.
With those still in the Way, I view them as similar to myself previously. They don't really know the evil that runs that group. I'm not going to condemn them forever over their lack of knowledge and them being warned off reading things like this site, but I will state clearly my opinion that they are being tricked. If nobody ever took the initiative to do that, I doubt I would have started to think critically about it myself.
So while GS is not the center of the universe, it is among the very few - maybe John Juedes site too - that people can come across information that presents facts and truths concerning TWI and how it really functions. In that sense it fills a very important niche - especially because the things it exposes are exactly those that TWI leadership hides and sweeps under the carpet so their current followers will not discover it. They punish people for disclosing they read these forums. If you look at most of these forum posts there are vastly more numbers of people that view these threads than participate in discussion. Actually the "lurker" rate on GS is extremely high. Who are these lurkers? People who want to know the truth but do not want to risk personal consequence from participating here. I would venture to say that a high number of current TWI followers lurk here. They know there is no other place they will find the information that is here, and certainly not from their local leadership.
If the horse is truly dead, why are there so many that still watch it diligently?
That which is brought to light here echoes much farther in impact to those adversely affected by TWI, which includes all their followers. Those sending in money to support the group are adversely affected whether they are aware of it or not - they are subsidizing the abusers. They provide salaries for them to continue their little political charades. Without that support they would have to go look for a job, with little time to micromanage others.
Regarding the JW's there are 2 characteristics I see of that group (and I grew up around them), and TWI that are to me remarkably similar, beyond what I see of other groups:
1) High level of control - I see the same oppressed look on the faces. The RC's don't micromanage people to that extent, require forced service, etc. Free thinkers are attacked vehemently in both orgs.
2) The almost cartoon-like dumbing down of the simplicity of their faith message - the Watchtower society and magazine look like a 3rd grade coloring book. TWI's art, magazines, etc. seem to be dumbing things way down. The feel I get is they want the followers obeying and blessed. While the real manipulation, politics, conniving happens behind the curtain.
Of course, YMMV. To me it's more of a "feel" sort of thing than something I can quantify.
All I know is, I'm averse to anyone teaching "most people do this (stupid or evil thing), not us." Whether or not what they say is factual (and so many times I've sat there thinking "that's not true"), it bothers me. I don't need to be told stuff like that in order to believe that God loves me. I've heard none of that kind of comparison when I've gone to various functions at Catholic or other churches over the years. I think that if we're judging, then we're not content and peaceful - is that unbiblical and too yoga-ish?
When I stumbled in here, looking for a copy of PFAL, in 2006, there were people here who had already been kicking this stuff around for more than six years.-----But, to me, it was all brand new. I'm really glad they didn't just say "Well, we've been kicking it around for six years. That's long enough." I needed to hear what they had to say even if they had said it a hundred times before -----because I was hearing it for the first time.
In my opinion, if you really want to compare ANY two religious groups, you need to place less emphasis on their stated religious tenets and more focus on the day-to-day lifestyles they promote.
In my opinion, if you really want to compare ANY two religious groups, you need to place less emphasis on their stated religious tenets and more focus on the day-to-day lifestyles they promote.
I'm thinking maybe our Twig was a cross between Jehovah's Witness on door-to-door outreach and Amway on multilevel marketing of PFAL...
Although personally I've never been crazy about either of those operations....I lean toward what's practical....I would have loved teaching folks how to preserve their PFAL books by putting them in Tupperware...first session "how to burp your PFAL Tupperware"....
think that's something- just wait until session 6 - "Battle of the Ziplock "....not to be confused with the session that had to be removed from the class "Seal-A-Meal" also know as "The Unforgivable Sin" - at least around Tupperware fans anyway.
I'm thinking maybe our Twig was a cross between Jehovah's Witness on door-to-door outreach and Amway on multilevel marketing of PFAL...
Although personally I've never been crazy about either of those operations....I lean toward what's practical....I would have loved teaching folks how to preserve their PFAL books by putting them in Tupperware...first session "how to burp your PFAL Tupperware"....
think that's something- just wait until session 6 - "Battle of the Ziplock "....not to be confused with the session that had to be removed from the class "Seal-A-Meal" also know as "The Unforgivable Sin" - at least around Tupperware fans anyway.
T-Bone, leave it to you, to make me laugh!! Â Thanks for your clever post(s)!
I'm reflecting on some of the posts on this thread about the nature of mankind and how "mainstream" is used to label groups, and how all groups function similarly.
Sure in some sense this is how the world works. Whenever you have two people banding together there's the start of politics. Get a crowd together around a common nobler motive and there's a religion. And religion and politics are at the root of the worst evil in mankind - killings, abuse, etc.
Sure if you look at groups from a high enough level they are all similar. And that also me be the explanation behind many former TWI followers having an aversion to organized religion.
But Jesus message was not to band together and form abusive relationships where you allow the baser elements of humanity to function. His message was different. He came to save mankind from that kind of thing. And in that is where the line has to be drawn. Are people being saved from the darker side of humanity that can be seen? Or is that darkness going on in secret while outwardly appearing with a godly veneer? To me that is the dividing line between genuine Christianity and hypocrisy.
Chock, wow!! Your post is so good, I have to think about it. Â Thanks for posting it!!
Well, at least try to remember for folks like me that have recently left the way, a dead horse to you is a prancing young stallion to me. I have no doubt that most all of what I post has been covered before. But I am not posting for the good of the group, I am posting to sort out the spaghetti noodles in my head and a lot of the perspectives and experiences on GSC has really helped me move on and start a new life.
Hopefully, soon I will be able to move on past GSC as well. Well just have to see how that comes along.
OS, I for one, really enjoy your posts. Â I hope you stay at the GSC, as long as you like. Â I like coming here, because I learn a great deal from some of the posts. Â Some of the posts are boring to me, but perhaps they are interesting to other people. Â One man's trash, could be another man's treasure.
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socks
In a perfect world we would all be well paid for our religious affiliation. We'd be able to decide in a competitive market. Want a big church? Spend big money. I'll show for the right dough. Buy me!
Ham
Heh.. it was the only character with the badge of mathematical excellence.. that made his way out of that existence.. I can't say it is (or were) me.. because I am still here..
Ham
For the "believers education".. I would recommend.. Norah Jones. Come away with me. then.. feels like home.. I would rate these as highly as Beatles.. Rubber Soul, Revolver.. Magical Mystery Tou
chockfull
I'm reflecting on some of the posts on this thread about the nature of mankind and how "mainstream" is used to label groups, and how all groups function similarly.
Sure in some sense this is how the world works. Whenever you have two people banding together there's the start of politics. Get a crowd together around a common nobler motive and there's a religion. And religion and politics are at the root of the worst evil in mankind - killings, abuse, etc.
Sure if you look at groups from a high enough level they are all similar. And that also me be the explanation behind many former TWI followers having an aversion to organized religion.
But Jesus message was not to band together and form abusive relationships where you allow the baser elements of humanity to function. His message was different. He came to save mankind from that kind of thing. And in that is where the line has to be drawn. Are people being saved from the darker side of humanity that can be seen? Or is that darkness going on in secret while outwardly appearing with a godly veneer? To me that is the dividing line between genuine Christianity and hypocrisy.
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socks
"Cults"
I'm a Christian, a follower, a believer, a member of and participant in. Now, I haven't got a tattoo on my buutt of the Pope or any specific denomination so I'm sure I'm "not" something normal and viable to someone. But overall I'm a fully qualified member of the Christian faith, belief structure and religion, dues paid and I get the magazine and email updates.
I've also been known to bite the hand that tries to feed me.
Christianity meets all the requirements and then some to be a cult. Big azz cult, too. It is a cult with many different sects. "It" is by no means the norm or the expected behavior in this world despite what We of Krestos like to say.
Members of the cult say that true blue followers mean no harm and would never do wrong to anyone, we're love pups, big fuzzy love pups.
Others outside the cult don't necessarily think that way - do they? They think we're delusioned and dismally mired in a cult of condemnation that has, by creating a big enough problem ("sin") has built it's own marketing machine to deliver the solution, to it's own continuance and profit. And that's the ones who like us.
I often think that most people for the most part think more or less about the same as I do - and have the same basic moral and ethical principles in play.
I'm often reminded that isn't the case or even close to true - that many people of all religious and non-religious stripe think differently. On the other end of my spectrum I see people who will steal, cheat, lie, destroy and just as soon swerve to run over a dog as to avoid it - and they're thinking has nothing to do with any "religious" basis at all. It's just the way they are.
Now I know this is GS, the exWayfer-other-story site, so I get the focus. I'm just sayin' every once in awhile in the midst of the similies, metaphors and what have you that IMO the Ultimate Answers don't lie in figuring out all the ways the Way was wrong and writing for the 100th time and the 1,000th way another way to say the same thing.
But that's me - I don't do that. I have my own dead horses I beat though so I do feel qualified when it comes to that.
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OldSkool
Well, at least try to remember for folks like me that have recently left the way, a dead horse to you is a prancing young stallion to me. I have no doubt that most all of what I post has been covered before. But I am not posting for the good of the group, I am posting to sort out the spaghetti noodles in my head and a lot of the perspectives and experiences on GSC has really helped me move on and start a new life.
Hopefully, soon I will be able to move on past GSC as well. Well just have to see how that comes along.
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socks
Don't stop on my account, no indeed.
The best thing I can advise and have advised is really just basic Stuff 101: review one's thinking to family, the blood relative kind. Review the social network one functions in and how it's prioritized. Review one's beliefs in light of what they really think is right as best as can be done.
I know those in the Way right now, who are active participants, who completely recognize good/bad and have redirected their lives to accomodate their life's goals and desires, which do include pursuing fellowship and teaching from the Way when and how they choose to. For them it works. And they're great people too.
I don't accept kicking at people forever simply because they don't choose to come to this website and participate. (that's not directed at you, just a general comment).
GS is not the center of the universe, and in a truly "free" life one is free to choose the avenues they feel are best to live life.
This board is good for expression and observation, and discussion to a lesser degree. You can only discuss something with those that are here and it's not practical to insist that everyone or anyone come here to do that nor I'd suspect is it right.
So it works, as well as it works. Better some work than no work, so to speak.
Just sayin' - idle observatin', 'sall.
But for moi, I don't see any big comparison to the JW's, maybe some but my point was (point?? wassat!?) that the comparisons would be wide applied to many different groups or organizations. Many are similar to the JW's, in many categories.
Far as I'm concerned the JW's are good to go as they are. Weird? - but compared....to what?
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OldSkool
Thanks, Socks!
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chockfull
Hey socks.
I agree with you w/r to family and social circles. Those are healthy avenues to pursue.
With those still in the Way, I view them as similar to myself previously. They don't really know the evil that runs that group. I'm not going to condemn them forever over their lack of knowledge and them being warned off reading things like this site, but I will state clearly my opinion that they are being tricked. If nobody ever took the initiative to do that, I doubt I would have started to think critically about it myself.
So while GS is not the center of the universe, it is among the very few - maybe John Juedes site too - that people can come across information that presents facts and truths concerning TWI and how it really functions. In that sense it fills a very important niche - especially because the things it exposes are exactly those that TWI leadership hides and sweeps under the carpet so their current followers will not discover it. They punish people for disclosing they read these forums. If you look at most of these forum posts there are vastly more numbers of people that view these threads than participate in discussion. Actually the "lurker" rate on GS is extremely high. Who are these lurkers? People who want to know the truth but do not want to risk personal consequence from participating here. I would venture to say that a high number of current TWI followers lurk here. They know there is no other place they will find the information that is here, and certainly not from their local leadership.
If the horse is truly dead, why are there so many that still watch it diligently?
That which is brought to light here echoes much farther in impact to those adversely affected by TWI, which includes all their followers. Those sending in money to support the group are adversely affected whether they are aware of it or not - they are subsidizing the abusers. They provide salaries for them to continue their little political charades. Without that support they would have to go look for a job, with little time to micromanage others.
Regarding the JW's there are 2 characteristics I see of that group (and I grew up around them), and TWI that are to me remarkably similar, beyond what I see of other groups:
1) High level of control - I see the same oppressed look on the faces. The RC's don't micromanage people to that extent, require forced service, etc. Free thinkers are attacked vehemently in both orgs.
2) The almost cartoon-like dumbing down of the simplicity of their faith message - the Watchtower society and magazine look like a 3rd grade coloring book. TWI's art, magazines, etc. seem to be dumbing things way down. The feel I get is they want the followers obeying and blessed. While the real manipulation, politics, conniving happens behind the curtain.
Of course, YMMV. To me it's more of a "feel" sort of thing than something I can quantify.
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cara
All I know is, I'm averse to anyone teaching "most people do this (stupid or evil thing), not us." Whether or not what they say is factual (and so many times I've sat there thinking "that's not true"), it bothers me. I don't need to be told stuff like that in order to believe that God loves me. I've heard none of that kind of comparison when I've gone to various functions at Catholic or other churches over the years. I think that if we're judging, then we're not content and peaceful - is that unbiblical and too yoga-ish?
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waysider
Maybe a bit off topic.
When I stumbled in here, looking for a copy of PFAL, in 2006, there were people here who had already been kicking this stuff around for more than six years.-----But, to me, it was all brand new. I'm really glad they didn't just say "Well, we've been kicking it around for six years. That's long enough." I needed to hear what they had to say even if they had said it a hundred times before -----because I was hearing it for the first time.
In my opinion, if you really want to compare ANY two religious groups, you need to place less emphasis on their stated religious tenets and more focus on the day-to-day lifestyles they promote.
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Grace Valerie Claire
GM, I felt like a jerk. Â Finally, I just stopped doing it.
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T-Bone
I'm thinking maybe our Twig was a cross between Jehovah's Witness on door-to-door outreach and Amway on multilevel marketing of PFAL...
Although personally I've never been crazy about either of those operations....I lean toward what's practical....I would have loved teaching folks how to preserve their PFAL books by putting them in Tupperware...first session "how to burp your PFAL Tupperware"....
think that's something- just wait until session 6 - "Battle of the Ziplock "....not to be confused with the session that had to be removed from the class "Seal-A-Meal" also know as "The Unforgivable Sin" - at least around Tupperware fans anyway.
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Grace Valerie Claire
T-Bone, leave it to you, to make me laugh!! Â Thanks for your clever post(s)!
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Grace Valerie Claire
Chock, wow!! Your post is so good, I have to think about it. Â Thanks for posting it!!
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Grace Valerie Claire
OS, I for one, really enjoy your posts. Â I hope you stay at the GSC, as long as you like. Â I like coming here, because I learn a great deal from some of the posts. Â Some of the posts are boring to me, but perhaps they are interesting to other people. Â One man's trash, could be another man's treasure.
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