I've been searching the threads, I promise, and tried a little outside research, but I sure could use some help, because I'm not answering my own questions...which are as follows:
1. I understood that the corps program was first instituted by vpw as a way to train people in his way of thinking and interpretation of the bible, it was designed to equip men and women to know what he knew so they could pass it on effectively, and because of the way expansion and growth occurred, a need for local leadership grew organically . Is this correct? If it is not, and even if it is, sources I could read would be very helpful.
2. When did the thrust or focus begin to change, and when did the idea begin that the WC would be the entry program for a lifetime of ministerial service?
3. Many colleges began quite small, and worked hard with growth and oversight to gain accreditation and other benchmarks of credibility. I am curious, did the whole college campus thing have that as a goal? Was it the goal of twi to grow their "institutions of higher learning" into programs that might be recognized outside of twi?
4. Were any WC encouraged to do more than attend college, but to also pursue those subjects that might expand their knowledge of what other people thought about theology? I know this was highly discouraged among regular followers.
I know that these have probably all been debated in some fashion elsewhere, I just can't find the threads. Maybe the answer is simpler than I am making it, too, but I really would like some help.
I know that if you take twi from the premise that it is/still is a cult, that these questions will not have any bearing, because a cult, by its nature seeks to draw away from society and not be a part of it. But, if there was any desire for twi to be a truly recognized spiritual haven, so to speak, wouldn't the founders have wanted credibility they could stand on?
The more I think about it, and the longer I am out, the more the phrase, "We have the word and that's all we need." doesn't hold water.
So, thanks in advance, and I appreciate any, and all, replies.
Still learning over here,
QT
QT,
No doubt, the link provided above showed you several different perceptions of the way corps program, its brochure(s) and intent. Through the years, vpw and lcm promoted the corps training via slogans and vague generalities......"Christian Leadership Training"....."Training Twig Coordinators"...."Spiritual Leadership: Word in Culture"....and of course, "A Lifetime of Christian Service."
The "First" corps training failed.........later, named "The Zero Corps." The following year, nine individuals started the training......together with wierwille in small teaching sessions, running, prayer time, hang-out together, etc. and the beginnings of wierwille's corps began to take root.
Sources you could read.....perhaps, The Way: Living in Love written by El@na Wh1tes1de....the in-house version of wierwille's thinking and words. Lots of information is posted on these threads....thanks to WordWolf.
Although vague......one of the corps brochures states, "Graduates of the Way Corps go forth to serve in areas of concern, interest and need. Where they serve depends upon their interest, ability and the needs of the ministry." By 1979/80......graduates of the corps program were vastly diversified. A lifetime of Christian service........no problem.......undergraduate and graduate degrees, advanced theological studies in Chicago, military service, authors and cartoonists, orchestra, dance & music, etc. Going forth to serve others via Twig, Branch, Area, and Limb coordinators.....depending on the corps grad's interest and ability to serve.
QT....you ask when did the thrust or focus begin to change. Technically, imo.....it was always changing. But in what I observed, big changes occurred when the larger corps numbers came onboard....i.e. the 6th-12th corps. By 1977 or 78.....the corps director, lcm, was promoting the corps program as "Be the Best Twig Coordinator: Go Corps." With the numbers swelling, twi simply needed twig coordinators on the field teaching and helping in outreach areas.
The Way College of Emporia was not accredited.....it was shot down. Twi had to give "back door accreditation" via the Rome City, Indiana location. Even though Don Wierwille was brought on board to help with this area...as the "Dean"....it never made much headway.
Don't know much about "wanting to be recognized outside twi".........during those 1977-82 years, the public label of CULT hit twi in the face. Thereafter, vpw seemed to wear the cult badge with an "us versus them" kinda pride.
Twi was ever-changing its terminology, concepts, book editions, programs, etc......and when martindale took the helm in 1982 (and wierwille died in 1985), many give reference to twi II (another whole set of changes).
My opinions -- sorry, no links, but maybe others will help you there....
1. I understood that the corps program was first instituted by vpw as a way to train people in his way of thinking and interpretation of the bible, it was designed to equip men and women to know what he knew so they could pass it on effectively, and because of the way expansion and growth occurred, a need for local leadership grew organically . Is this correct? If it is not, and even if it is, sources I could read would be very helpful.
The corps program was advertised that way, as a leadership training program in The Word. But I think VPW always had it in mind that he was looking for people to follow him, not God. He wanted an inner group of believers he could trust to jump when he said jump, and even anticipate his need before iterating it. Untrained believers tended to be too independent.
2. When did the thrust or focus begin to change, and when did the idea begin that the WC would be the entry program for a lifetime of ministerial service?
I don't think it did change. When I was in ('79-'80), he had already called the 4th Corps back into residence. Those people were already ordained, many were married. I'm sure they were just as surprised as anyone to be called back into living in a dorm!
3. Many colleges began quite small, and worked hard with growth and oversight to gain accreditation and other benchmarks of credibility. I am curious, did the whole college campus thing have that as a goal? Was it the goal of twi to grow their "institutions of higher learning" into programs that might be recognized outside of twi?
TWI at one time had made it known that they were going to try to make The Way College of Emporia an accredited college. I think they had even suckered (!) some people into the Corps on that basis (I think someone posted about that). One "small" hurdle was, they had no faculty with any credentials to teach courses at a college level. I think Don W. was the only PhD, and I don't know if anyone else had so much as a masters degree. Some probably didn't even have a baccalaureate.
And some of the curriculum (how to roll clothes to pack for a trip, and gun safety come to mind) would never have qualified for an accredited degree.
4. Were any WC encouraged to do more than attend college, but to also pursue those subjects that might expand their knowledge of what other people thought about theology? I know this was highly discouraged among regular followers.
Wierwille was much more indulgent of people going to college in the early years. He even had a College WOW Ambassador program for those who wanted to do a modified WOW commitment on their college campuses (I did in 1975).
But usually, if he wanted people to learn from someone, he tried to bring them to the campus to address us. He did not encourage us to go out to, say B. G. Leonard's class or any college theology course. (I don't think Leonard would have been very happy with us, since Wierwille had basically ripped off his class and renamed it PFAL.) On the contrary, he bashed his own college education regularly, said they taught him "all around the Word, but they never taught me the Word!"
'Course, when he wanted to impress you with his education, he dropped the names of many he studied under, but that was only for him, ya know...!
Thank you all, very, very much for taking the time to answer.
I had thought it might come down to some of the points made here, and taking into account the detailed post Mark made on the foolhardy thread, and refreshing myself with some of what was suggested, I think I have a better picture now.
Thanks for taking the time to help me pick through this!
Sorry, can't remember how to do the quote thing, so I'll do it this way:
2. When did the thrust or focus begin to change, and when did the idea begin that the WC would be the entry program for a lifetime of ministerial service?
It was my understanding from the very first I was involved in TWI in 1972, that The Way Corps was a lifetime of Christian service. I believe the section of the ROA 72 film featuring the Corps even states it that way. It was my understanding that TWC was a calling, and while anyone could apply, not everyone was called and would be accepted. It was supposed to be a program focusing on training those called to gift ministries. I was blessed when I applied, that I was accepted. But to my great surprise, once in residence in Emporia in 1975, VPW came out and changed the focus of TWC to that of "training twig coordinators." I remember it vividly, because he came out and made that statement in a Sunday Night teaching, no warning or previous announcement to The Corps. I still remember the title, because the announcement was so stunning to me: Stones of Witness. I for years thought I must surely have misunderstood "the man of God" when I understood the Corps' purpose as something different. But then he went about changing the logo, and I knew differently. It was sort of bait and switch. I signed on for one thing, and ended up being trained for something else.
3. Many colleges began quite small, and worked hard with growth and oversight to gain accreditation and other benchmarks of credibility. I am curious, did the whole college campus thing have that as a goal? Was it the goal of twi to grow their "institutions of higher learning" into programs that might be recognized outside of twi?
VPW, when acquiring The College of Emporia in 1974-75 stated to the apprentice Corps that year (6th) that the The Way College would be an accredited institution and we would graduate with accredited degrees in theology. Shortly thereafter, he blamed attorney for TWI, Sc@tt J@rvis, for "not filing the appropriate paperwork" and missing a window of opportunity to assume the accreditation status of The College of Emporia. J@rvis was simply the "fall guy" for VPWs stupidity to assume TWI could take on another college's accreditation without having his college meet the rigorous academic standards that any other college must in order to be accredited.
4. Were any WC encouraged to do more than attend college, but to also pursue those subjects that might expand their knowledge of what other people thought about theology? I know this was highly discouraged among regular followers.
By my interim year (1976-77) after being able to score nothing but fast-food jobs, I had decided that I needed to go to college in order to have any chance of making a decent living and supporting myself, but I was already in The Way Corps. I began listening very carefully to VPW's views on Corps going to college. VPW scoffed at people he referred to as "professional students" and noted in the Advanced Class, a particular devil spirit affecting such "egotistical" people, namely "the fallacious spirit."
VPW repeatedly complained about investing all the time, effort and money he (HA!) spent training Corps to be ministry leaders, and then they would go out and involve themselves in college instead of doing what he trained them to do and what they were called to do. In other words, VPW equated a Corps grad going to college with ignoring their true calling, unless they were specifically assigned by him to go to school as their Corps assignment. When I finally approached my branch leader about going to college, I got a face full of fire and was totally discouraged from even asking VPW about it. When I approached my work coordinator about being trained to do something besides refinishing, sewing, or housekeeping, his response was, "It's not our job in The Way Corps to train you for an occupation!" My dreams of a higher education, or even some kind of training to better myself were deep-sixed for several decades. So in answer to your question, NO.
When I think back on all the crap I learned in high school college, it's a wonder I can think at all ...
In hindsight, I think the diligent Way College student could have gotten a decent education, at least compared to what some other two year schools offer. The Way College (and we corps took the test too) supposedly outperformed some other institutions on some generic Bible test, which really wouldn't surprise me.
I started as a chemistry major, which was much more rigorous, but when I switched into horticulture some classes were pretty simple. When it came to open electives things were simpler yet. I just wonder how much some of these two year religion schools that are accredited really offer, other than the diploma.
OT history seemed pretty good. The Greek and Aramaic stuff seemed like a reasonable intro to learn to use an interlinear. Public speaking was sometimes run by people that didn't know much, but George Hendley seems to be making a living teaching it now. I don't think jet style packing stuff was ever considered part of the curriculum, but even some of that stuff may have been more useful than what some colleges now give credit for. The english classes were adequate maybe, I really don't remember.
If twi just had the college program, stripped of all the cult indoctrination, it might have been a cool thing, even if it was a little light on academics.
sarc Of course for the corps, our calling was so great that the classes were just a side issue. The survival of the free world depended on our believing for crying out loud. /sarc off
When VPW was purchasing the Way College he had hoped to do it in a way that kept the accreditation. That didn't work. One of the motivations was that if it were accredited, then students could get money from the GI bill and other government programs to attend.
I don't know how high up on the list of motivations that was, but it was on the list. I heard him talk about it several times.
I know he was trying to do it in a way that would "keep" the accreditation. However, that was a ridiculous concept from the start.
TCE GOT their accreditation by meeting rigorous standards set by the accreditation agency, which I believe was the Northwestern Association. This requires a college to include requiring core subjects such as college level science, math, and composition. TWCE would have had to meet those standards in order to "keep" any such status. They offered the 6th Corps a ....-poor english supplement that had NOTHING to do with composition, and mostly had to do with spelling. As far as college level comp, there was NOTHING offered to us that even compared.
And TWCE didn't offer ANYTHING where mathmatics is concerned, not even basic arithmetic. And science?
HA!
Our first year in-residence (1975), Don W was I believe, either working on his PhD or recently gotten it . He (I think I remember him telling us), for his thesis was working on how the "block" system could be implemented in an educational institution and was a superior means of education. I remember people from his college coming to TWCE to check out how he had implemented the program there. When the Northwestern Association people came (also during my first year in-residence) they rejected accreditation for the following reasons, among more:
Lack of qualified teachers with advanced degrees (Masters, PhD) in the subjects they were teaching
Inadequate core curriculum including science, math, english.
When VPW was purchasing the Way College he had hoped to do it in a way that kept the accreditation. That didn't work. One of the motivations was that if it were accredited, then students could get money from the GI bill and other government programs to attend.
I don't know how high up on the list of motivations that was, but it was on the list. I heard him talk about it several times.
Why does this not surprise me?
I know he was trying to do it in a way that would "keep" the accreditation. However, that was a ridiculous concept from the start.
TCE GOT their accreditation by meeting rigorous standards set by the accreditation agency, which I believe was the Northwestern Association. This requires a college to include requiring core subjects such as college level science, math, and composition. TWCE would have had to meet those standards in order to "keep" any such status. They offered the 6th Corps a ....-poor english supplement that had NOTHING to do with composition, and mostly had to do with spelling. As far as college level comp, there was NOTHING offered to us that even compared.
And TWCE didn't offer ANYTHING where mathmatics is concerned, not even basic arithmetic. And science?
HA!
Our first year in-residence (1975), Don W was I believe, either working on his PhD or recently gotten it . He (I think I remember him telling us), for his thesis was working on how the "block" system could be implemented in an educational institution and was a superior means of education. I remember people from his college coming to TWCE to check out how he had implemented the program there. When the Northwestern Association people came (also during my first year in-residence) they rejected accreditation for the following reasons, among more:
Lack of qualified teachers with advanced degrees (Masters, PhD) in the subjects they were teaching
Inadequate core curriculum including science, math, english.
I've read a number of times that the entire library of the Way College was composed of used textbooks
that twi asked people to send in to the Way College.
This alongside all the claims that the Way offered a superior education to non-twi.
Anyone who was IN that library, can you elaborate on the books?
When the Northwestern Association people came (also during my first year in-residence) they rejected accreditation for the following reasons, among more:
Lack of qualified teachers with advanced degrees (Masters, PhD) in the subjects they were teaching
Inadequate core curriculum including science, math, english.
How did they manage to get accredited at Rome City? Did Indiana not require science and math?
(at least as I recall they were passing out associate degrees from there)
I don't remember VPW ever sending out a call for a donation of used textbooks. But that doesn't mean he didn't. But I can't fathom what anyone would have used them for. The only books required were the ones sold in The Way Bookstore.
I do remember there was a locked room set aside in Wierwille Library that D@nna R@ndallwas in charge of, that contained rare books and encyclopaedias from the old TCE library.
The books in the Anderson Library? I don't know. I never saw any. Our first year there (75-76), the Anderson Library was under renovation, and the basement was the Art Department. Our final year there (77-78), for the most part it was still an empty building, except for some kind of annex I never went into. There may have been books there.
Anderson was in fact a Carnegie Library, but if TWI got anything other than simply the shell of a decrepit old building that badly needed repair, I was not aware of it. I think the majority of the books were taken out at the sale, or perhaps sold off by TWI?
Funny. Two "libraries" on the "college" campus (Wierwille and Anderson) and nary a book in sight. Now there's an education for ya.
As far as The Way College of Biblical Research, Indiana Campus, it was accredited only in the state of Indiana, by a loophole in Indiana law. WCBRIC was never a nationally accredited institution. For this reason, those credits do not always transfer to legitimate 4 year institutions.
I know that some colleges that specialize in giving life credit to returning adults, do accept those credits, but most do not.
I remember "browsing" through the books of Anderson library...this was in 78-79...what I recall is that the books were old and tattered and looked as if they had been sitting in boxes in people's attics for years...and then donated in order to fill shelf space.
As far as I can tell, these books were window dressing only...I mean, you hardly need a library to contain the books that twi actually used.
A side note...During the dedication ceremony of Anderson library (which was held outside, in front of the library on the steps)...There were probably about 100 people there, Wierwille led the ceremony...some "townies" had slipped through the security and drove past in their car while Wierwille was speaking...when they got to the library, they started honking the horn and as everyone turned to look...one of the "townies" has dropped his pants and hung their bare foot out the car window, mooning the entire group. (I recall vividly having to bite my lip to keep from laughing)...
...In hindsite, the mooning incident was an appropriate gesture for this "dedication".
I've read a number of times that the entire library of the Way College was composed of used textbooks
that twi asked people to send in to the Way College.
This alongside all the claims that the Way offered a superior education to non-twi.
Anyone who was IN that library, can you elaborate on the books?
I remember "browsing" through the books of Anderson library...this was in 78-79...what I recall is that the books were old and tattered and looked as if they had been sitting in boxes in people's attics for years...and then donated in order to fill shelf space.
As far as I can tell, these books were window dressing only...I mean, you hardly need a library to contain the books that twi actually used.
Ok, that explains that.
...In hindsite, the mooning incident was an appropriate gesture for this "dedication".
I think "hindsight" is the only appropriate way to review a "mooning".
I never went through the corps, but I have worked closely with them from 1st to about 12th or 13th.
In my opinion, there were at least 2 big changes. The early corps that trained primarily at HQ (probably 1-4, someone correct me if I'm wrong), generally had heart and dedication for the people. They weren't afraid to ask non-corps for advise and they tried to do the right thing. Corps 5 through 7 or 8 seemed to always try to play catch-up with the earlier corps and were more rigid in following orders from HQ. After Corps 8 or so, it seemed to get even worse, with the corps simply mouthing whatever the party line from HQ was.
I apologize in advance for our ex-corps at GS. Again, this is only my opinion and it was a long, long time ago.
It [TWC]was supposed to be a program focusing on training those called to gift ministries. ...But to my great surprise, once in residence in Emporia in 1975, VPW came out and changed the focus of TWC to that of "training twig coordinators." I remember it vividly, because he came out and made that statement in a Sunday Night teaching, no warning or previous announcement to The Corps. I still remember the title, because the announcement was so stunning to me: Stones of Witness.
I remember VP announcing/teaching that the purpose of the WC was NOT to train those called to gift ministries, but was to train twig coordinators. I remember it the same year, 1975. Or was it 1974? Anyway, it was the ministry 1974/75 year as TWI reckoned years. But I remember it as being taught at a 10:30 fellowship at HQ. It was a bit of a shocker, a "shrink," if you will.
It wasn't announced as a change of any sort. VP said nothing indicating that this was a change in TWI policy. Actually, I believe that he broached the subject as one who was correcting a misunderstanding among us egotistical little WC ....s who were pompous enough to believe erroneously that we had gift ministries. Blame the people again. TWI isn't always right, but they're never wrong. It was definitely, IMO, a change in TWI's stance concerning TWC.
Considering the high proportion of WC who had already been successful twig, branch, & limb coordinators who were in attendance that year, the program, at that point, seemed to be promoting a step backwards to me.
I wonder if VP & Co, didn't already see the writing on the wall that despite the increasing numbers of followers still joining, the phenominal promise of the early 70's wasn't going to be realized. CA, NY, & KS had effectively been neutered compared to the powerful organism they were before VP, a few short years before, clamped his controlling WC, WOW, Centralized ABS, Way Tree, Inc. hand on them. Perhaps VP realized he was going to need more grunts and fewer leaders than projections had indicated before he screwed it up. Classic CYA move on TWI's part.
When I think back on all the crap I learned in high school college, it's a wonder I can think at all ...
rhino you should do standup
--
not having read through all this, i just want to point out, i don't see the way corps program as one designed to go out and help the world. yeah yeah areas of concern interest and need. but i think THE WAY INTERNATIONAL was the only area of concern and interest and need. so if you could get more into the way ministry, great
but helping outsiders, no way....
take the class, i'm a asking you a second time.... now it's time for me to shake the dust off my duolos feet.....
I remember VP announcing/teaching that the purpose of the WC was NOT to train those called to gift ministries, but was to train twig coordinators. I remember it the same year, 1975. Or was it 1974? Anyway, it was the ministry 1974/75 year as TWI reckoned years. But I remember it as being taught at a 10:30 fellowship at HQ.
By 1974/75.........to train twig coordinators.
By 1980/81.........the way corps were the slave labor force of twi.
Imo, wierwille's embryonic idea of the corps program was to train pfal class coordinators.......i.e. johnnie townsxnd clones to run classes for "the teacher" and give full allegiance to docvic. Wierwille didn't want any mavericks or renegades to shanghi his class.......like he did with B.G. Leonard's class.
In order to safeguard his class, wierwille needed loyal followers and a chain of command setup. The "training of twig coordinators" was NOT about spiritually-trained individuals ministering to their twigs....but rather, RUNNING CLASSES and "the class" will minister to them and tie their allegiance to their "beloved teacher" and hq.
Therefore, in hindsight......I conclude that Wierwille envisioned the corps program as the most effective means to safeguard his class and his legacy.
I seem to remember when i first got in to TWI in 1974, right after TWI had gotten the campus and was in the process of still fixing up a few of the buildings, that the word was that they were trying to offer accreditation IF all of the legal requirements came through? Meaning that if you went through "thier" classes you could get transferr credits to another institution for some of the classes.
Someone might be able to clarify this more and I could be wrong, but as i remember hearing about it that something came up and the accreditation aspect didn't come through or TWI was told that the accreditation that TCE had didn't come with the campus.
Recommended Posts
WhiteDove
Here is a link on the subject
Here
Edited by WhiteDoveLink to comment
Share on other sites
QuietThinker
Many thanks, WhiteDove, and gives me more keywords to search off.
thanks again,
QT
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
QT,
No doubt, the link provided above showed you several different perceptions of the way corps program, its brochure(s) and intent. Through the years, vpw and lcm promoted the corps training via slogans and vague generalities......"Christian Leadership Training"....."Training Twig Coordinators"...."Spiritual Leadership: Word in Culture"....and of course, "A Lifetime of Christian Service."
The "First" corps training failed.........later, named "The Zero Corps." The following year, nine individuals started the training......together with wierwille in small teaching sessions, running, prayer time, hang-out together, etc. and the beginnings of wierwille's corps began to take root.
Sources you could read.....perhaps, The Way: Living in Love written by El@na Wh1tes1de....the in-house version of wierwille's thinking and words. Lots of information is posted on these threads....thanks to WordWolf.
Although vague......one of the corps brochures states, "Graduates of the Way Corps go forth to serve in areas of concern, interest and need. Where they serve depends upon their interest, ability and the needs of the ministry." By 1979/80......graduates of the corps program were vastly diversified. A lifetime of Christian service........no problem.......undergraduate and graduate degrees, advanced theological studies in Chicago, military service, authors and cartoonists, orchestra, dance & music, etc. Going forth to serve others via Twig, Branch, Area, and Limb coordinators.....depending on the corps grad's interest and ability to serve.
QT....you ask when did the thrust or focus begin to change. Technically, imo.....it was always changing. But in what I observed, big changes occurred when the larger corps numbers came onboard....i.e. the 6th-12th corps. By 1977 or 78.....the corps director, lcm, was promoting the corps program as "Be the Best Twig Coordinator: Go Corps." With the numbers swelling, twi simply needed twig coordinators on the field teaching and helping in outreach areas.
The Way College of Emporia was not accredited.....it was shot down. Twi had to give "back door accreditation" via the Rome City, Indiana location. Even though Don Wierwille was brought on board to help with this area...as the "Dean"....it never made much headway.
Don't know much about "wanting to be recognized outside twi".........during those 1977-82 years, the public label of CULT hit twi in the face. Thereafter, vpw seemed to wear the cult badge with an "us versus them" kinda pride.
Twi was ever-changing its terminology, concepts, book editions, programs, etc......and when martindale took the helm in 1982 (and wierwille died in 1985), many give reference to twi II (another whole set of changes).
Happy searching,
skyrider
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
My opinions -- sorry, no links, but maybe others will help you there....
The corps program was advertised that way, as a leadership training program in The Word. But I think VPW always had it in mind that he was looking for people to follow him, not God. He wanted an inner group of believers he could trust to jump when he said jump, and even anticipate his need before iterating it. Untrained believers tended to be too independent.I don't think it did change. When I was in ('79-'80), he had already called the 4th Corps back into residence. Those people were already ordained, many were married. I'm sure they were just as surprised as anyone to be called back into living in a dorm!TWI at one time had made it known that they were going to try to make The Way College of Emporia an accredited college. I think they had even suckered (!) some people into the Corps on that basis (I think someone posted about that). One "small" hurdle was, they had no faculty with any credentials to teach courses at a college level. I think Don W. was the only PhD, and I don't know if anyone else had so much as a masters degree. Some probably didn't even have a baccalaureate.And some of the curriculum (how to roll clothes to pack for a trip, and gun safety come to mind) would never have qualified for an accredited degree.
A few in the Research Department (back when there was one) were encouraged to take courses in koiné Greek or Aramaic at the college level, but that's all I know about. I was able to transfer some of my classwork at Rome City toward my undergrad degree, but that wasn't TWI's idea, it was mine.Wierwille was much more indulgent of people going to college in the early years. He even had a College WOW Ambassador program for those who wanted to do a modified WOW commitment on their college campuses (I did in 1975).
But usually, if he wanted people to learn from someone, he tried to bring them to the campus to address us. He did not encourage us to go out to, say B. G. Leonard's class or any college theology course. (I don't think Leonard would have been very happy with us, since Wierwille had basically ripped off his class and renamed it PFAL.) On the contrary, he bashed his own college education regularly, said they taught him "all around the Word, but they never taught me the Word!"
'Course, when he wanted to impress you with his education, he dropped the names of many he studied under, but that was only for him, ya know...!
Regards,
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
QT -- Shaz nailed it. (Thanks Shaz!) :)
I never went corps -- but I did hear docvic talk about it, and his *vision* for it.
He basically equated the program to "disciples learning from the master's feet".
The time frame here is 1975 and a few years after.
I heard him say that several times -- both about the apostles and Jesus,
and about Paul -- teaching disciples (teacher to student)
in the various towns he travelled through,
and how that was what he wanted for the corps.
It was all about the student coming to the *master* to soak up
(personally) what the *teacher* knew.
Now -- my apologies to all ex-corps, if you experienced it different,
and this flies in the face of what you all went through.
I'm just repeating what I heard docvic say.
And like I said --- Shaz is right -- it was all about docvic ----
His knowledge --- His disciples --- at His feet.
They happened to have a different *spin* for the corps sales pitch
back in the mid 1970's.
Edited by dmillerLink to comment
Share on other sites
QuietThinker
Thank you all, very, very much for taking the time to answer.
I had thought it might come down to some of the points made here, and taking into account the detailed post Mark made on the foolhardy thread, and refreshing myself with some of what was suggested, I think I have a better picture now.
Thanks for taking the time to help me pick through this!
QT
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Catcup
Sorry, can't remember how to do the quote thing, so I'll do it this way:
2. When did the thrust or focus begin to change, and when did the idea begin that the WC would be the entry program for a lifetime of ministerial service?
It was my understanding from the very first I was involved in TWI in 1972, that The Way Corps was a lifetime of Christian service. I believe the section of the ROA 72 film featuring the Corps even states it that way. It was my understanding that TWC was a calling, and while anyone could apply, not everyone was called and would be accepted. It was supposed to be a program focusing on training those called to gift ministries. I was blessed when I applied, that I was accepted. But to my great surprise, once in residence in Emporia in 1975, VPW came out and changed the focus of TWC to that of "training twig coordinators." I remember it vividly, because he came out and made that statement in a Sunday Night teaching, no warning or previous announcement to The Corps. I still remember the title, because the announcement was so stunning to me: Stones of Witness. I for years thought I must surely have misunderstood "the man of God" when I understood the Corps' purpose as something different. But then he went about changing the logo, and I knew differently. It was sort of bait and switch. I signed on for one thing, and ended up being trained for something else.
3. Many colleges began quite small, and worked hard with growth and oversight to gain accreditation and other benchmarks of credibility. I am curious, did the whole college campus thing have that as a goal? Was it the goal of twi to grow their "institutions of higher learning" into programs that might be recognized outside of twi?
VPW, when acquiring The College of Emporia in 1974-75 stated to the apprentice Corps that year (6th) that the The Way College would be an accredited institution and we would graduate with accredited degrees in theology. Shortly thereafter, he blamed attorney for TWI, Sc@tt J@rvis, for "not filing the appropriate paperwork" and missing a window of opportunity to assume the accreditation status of The College of Emporia. J@rvis was simply the "fall guy" for VPWs stupidity to assume TWI could take on another college's accreditation without having his college meet the rigorous academic standards that any other college must in order to be accredited.
4. Were any WC encouraged to do more than attend college, but to also pursue those subjects that might expand their knowledge of what other people thought about theology? I know this was highly discouraged among regular followers.
By my interim year (1976-77) after being able to score nothing but fast-food jobs, I had decided that I needed to go to college in order to have any chance of making a decent living and supporting myself, but I was already in The Way Corps. I began listening very carefully to VPW's views on Corps going to college. VPW scoffed at people he referred to as "professional students" and noted in the Advanced Class, a particular devil spirit affecting such "egotistical" people, namely "the fallacious spirit."
VPW repeatedly complained about investing all the time, effort and money he (HA!) spent training Corps to be ministry leaders, and then they would go out and involve themselves in college instead of doing what he trained them to do and what they were called to do. In other words, VPW equated a Corps grad going to college with ignoring their true calling, unless they were specifically assigned by him to go to school as their Corps assignment. When I finally approached my branch leader about going to college, I got a face full of fire and was totally discouraged from even asking VPW about it. When I approached my work coordinator about being trained to do something besides refinishing, sewing, or housekeeping, his response was, "It's not our job in The Way Corps to train you for an occupation!" My dreams of a higher education, or even some kind of training to better myself were deep-sixed for several decades. So in answer to your question, NO.
Edited by CatcupLink to comment
Share on other sites
rhino
When I think back on all the crap I learned in high school college, it's a wonder I can think at all ...
In hindsight, I think the diligent Way College student could have gotten a decent education, at least compared to what some other two year schools offer. The Way College (and we corps took the test too) supposedly outperformed some other institutions on some generic Bible test, which really wouldn't surprise me.
I started as a chemistry major, which was much more rigorous, but when I switched into horticulture some classes were pretty simple. When it came to open electives things were simpler yet. I just wonder how much some of these two year religion schools that are accredited really offer, other than the diploma.
OT history seemed pretty good. The Greek and Aramaic stuff seemed like a reasonable intro to learn to use an interlinear. Public speaking was sometimes run by people that didn't know much, but George Hendley seems to be making a living teaching it now. I don't think jet style packing stuff was ever considered part of the curriculum, but even some of that stuff may have been more useful than what some colleges now give credit for. The english classes
were adequate maybe, I really don't remember.
If twi just had the college program, stripped of all the cult indoctrination, it might have been a cool thing, even if it was a little light on academics.
sarc Of course for the corps, our calling was so great that the classes were just a side issue. The survival of the free world depended on our believing for crying out loud. /sarc off
Link to comment
Share on other sites
My3Cents
Just a small addition to Catcup's post:
When VPW was purchasing the Way College he had hoped to do it in a way that kept the accreditation. That didn't work. One of the motivations was that if it were accredited, then students could get money from the GI bill and other government programs to attend.
I don't know how high up on the list of motivations that was, but it was on the list. I heard him talk about it several times.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Catcup
I know he was trying to do it in a way that would "keep" the accreditation. However, that was a ridiculous concept from the start.
TCE GOT their accreditation by meeting rigorous standards set by the accreditation agency, which I believe was the Northwestern Association. This requires a college to include requiring core subjects such as college level science, math, and composition. TWCE would have had to meet those standards in order to "keep" any such status. They offered the 6th Corps a ....-poor english supplement that had NOTHING to do with composition, and mostly had to do with spelling. As far as college level comp, there was NOTHING offered to us that even compared.
And TWCE didn't offer ANYTHING where mathmatics is concerned, not even basic arithmetic. And science?
HA!
Our first year in-residence (1975), Don W was I believe, either working on his PhD or recently gotten it . He (I think I remember him telling us), for his thesis was working on how the "block" system could be implemented in an educational institution and was a superior means of education. I remember people from his college coming to TWCE to check out how he had implemented the program there. When the Northwestern Association people came (also during my first year in-residence) they rejected accreditation for the following reasons, among more:
Lack of qualified teachers with advanced degrees (Masters, PhD) in the subjects they were teaching
Inadequate core curriculum including science, math, english.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Why does this not surprise me?
I've read a number of times that the entire library of the Way College was composed of used textbooks
that twi asked people to send in to the Way College.
This alongside all the claims that the Way offered a superior education to non-twi.
Anyone who was IN that library, can you elaborate on the books?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rhino
How did they manage to get accredited at Rome City? Did Indiana not require science and math?
(at least as I recall they were passing out associate degrees from there)
Edited by rhinoLink to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
WordWolf -
All I remeber was that the Library at Emporia was the first Carnegie Library west of the Mississippi.
There was not much time to use the library - well except that a few found a pretty good use for the tower......
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Catcup
I don't remember VPW ever sending out a call for a donation of used textbooks. But that doesn't mean he didn't. But I can't fathom what anyone would have used them for. The only books required were the ones sold in The Way Bookstore.
I do remember there was a locked room set aside in Wierwille Library that D@nna R@ndallwas in charge of, that contained rare books and encyclopaedias from the old TCE library.
The books in the Anderson Library? I don't know. I never saw any. Our first year there (75-76), the Anderson Library was under renovation, and the basement was the Art Department. Our final year there (77-78), for the most part it was still an empty building, except for some kind of annex I never went into. There may have been books there.
Anderson was in fact a Carnegie Library, but if TWI got anything other than simply the shell of a decrepit old building that badly needed repair, I was not aware of it. I think the majority of the books were taken out at the sale, or perhaps sold off by TWI?
Funny. Two "libraries" on the "college" campus (Wierwille and Anderson) and nary a book in sight. Now there's an education for ya.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Catcup
As far as The Way College of Biblical Research, Indiana Campus, it was accredited only in the state of Indiana, by a loophole in Indiana law. WCBRIC was never a nationally accredited institution. For this reason, those credits do not always transfer to legitimate 4 year institutions.
I know that some colleges that specialize in giving life credit to returning adults, do accept those credits, but most do not.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GrouchoMarxJr
I remember "browsing" through the books of Anderson library...this was in 78-79...what I recall is that the books were old and tattered and looked as if they had been sitting in boxes in people's attics for years...and then donated in order to fill shelf space.
As far as I can tell, these books were window dressing only...I mean, you hardly need a library to contain the books that twi actually used.
A side note...During the dedication ceremony of Anderson library (which was held outside, in front of the library on the steps)...There were probably about 100 people there, Wierwille led the ceremony...some "townies" had slipped through the security and drove past in their car while Wierwille was speaking...when they got to the library, they started honking the horn and as everyone turned to look...one of the "townies" has dropped his pants and hung their bare foot out the car window, mooning the entire group. (I recall vividly having to bite my lip to keep from laughing)...
...In hindsite, the mooning incident was an appropriate gesture for this "dedication".
Edited by GrouchoMarxJrLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Ok, that explains that.
I think "hindsight" is the only appropriate way to review a "mooning".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jim
I never went through the corps, but I have worked closely with them from 1st to about 12th or 13th.
In my opinion, there were at least 2 big changes. The early corps that trained primarily at HQ (probably 1-4, someone correct me if I'm wrong), generally had heart and dedication for the people. They weren't afraid to ask non-corps for advise and they tried to do the right thing. Corps 5 through 7 or 8 seemed to always try to play catch-up with the earlier corps and were more rigid in following orders from HQ. After Corps 8 or so, it seemed to get even worse, with the corps simply mouthing whatever the party line from HQ was.
I apologize in advance for our ex-corps at GS. Again, this is only my opinion and it was a long, long time ago.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
I remember VP announcing/teaching that the purpose of the WC was NOT to train those called to gift ministries, but was to train twig coordinators. I remember it the same year, 1975. Or was it 1974? Anyway, it was the ministry 1974/75 year as TWI reckoned years. But I remember it as being taught at a 10:30 fellowship at HQ. It was a bit of a shocker, a "shrink," if you will.
It wasn't announced as a change of any sort. VP said nothing indicating that this was a change in TWI policy. Actually, I believe that he broached the subject as one who was correcting a misunderstanding among us egotistical little WC ....s who were pompous enough to believe erroneously that we had gift ministries. Blame the people again. TWI isn't always right, but they're never wrong. It was definitely, IMO, a change in TWI's stance concerning TWC.
Considering the high proportion of WC who had already been successful twig, branch, & limb coordinators who were in attendance that year, the program, at that point, seemed to be promoting a step backwards to me.
I wonder if VP & Co, didn't already see the writing on the wall that despite the increasing numbers of followers still joining, the phenominal promise of the early 70's wasn't going to be realized. CA, NY, & KS had effectively been neutered compared to the powerful organism they were before VP, a few short years before, clamped his controlling WC, WOW, Centralized ABS, Way Tree, Inc. hand on them. Perhaps VP realized he was going to need more grunts and fewer leaders than projections had indicated before he screwed it up. Classic CYA move on TWI's part.
I'll bet money on it. And give odds.
Tom
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
--
not having read through all this, i just want to point out, i don't see the way corps program as one designed to go out and help the world. yeah yeah areas of concern interest and need. but i think THE WAY INTERNATIONAL was the only area of concern and interest and need. so if you could get more into the way ministry, great
but helping outsiders, no way....
take the class, i'm a asking you a second time.... now it's time for me to shake the dust off my duolos feet.....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
jardinero
J.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
By 1974/75.........to train twig coordinators.
By 1980/81.........the way corps were the slave labor force of twi.
Imo, wierwille's embryonic idea of the corps program was to train pfal class coordinators.......i.e. johnnie townsxnd clones to run classes for "the teacher" and give full allegiance to docvic. Wierwille didn't want any mavericks or renegades to shanghi his class.......like he did with B.G. Leonard's class.
In order to safeguard his class, wierwille needed loyal followers and a chain of command setup. The "training of twig coordinators" was NOT about spiritually-trained individuals ministering to their twigs....but rather, RUNNING CLASSES and "the class" will minister to them and tie their allegiance to their "beloved teacher" and hq.
Therefore, in hindsight......I conclude that Wierwille envisioned the corps program as the most effective means to safeguard his class and his legacy.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
danteh1
I seem to remember when i first got in to TWI in 1974, right after TWI had gotten the campus and was in the process of still fixing up a few of the buildings, that the word was that they were trying to offer accreditation IF all of the legal requirements came through? Meaning that if you went through "thier" classes you could get transferr credits to another institution for some of the classes.
Someone might be able to clarify this more and I could be wrong, but as i remember hearing about it that something came up and the accreditation aspect didn't come through or TWI was told that the accreditation that TCE had didn't come with the campus.
Edited by danteh1Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.