We Didn't Know Any Better

[Belle]

I understand that ALL of us have done things we aren't so proud of regarding our actions while involved with TWI. And everyone on here, pretty much, has acknowledged that as well as apologizing when they have the opportunity.

I also understand that TWI is trying to be "kinder and gentler" and "pretending" to not be so involved in micro-managing the lives of their followers. BUT, they aren't doing anything to rectify the damage, are they? If they were genuinely sincere, wouldn't they address and acknowledge the areas where they KNOW they screwed up?

"We're sorry for subjecting anyone, especially CHILDREN to porno under the guise of a Biblical class"

"We're sorry for ruining lives by forcing people to sell their houses."

"We're sorry for counselling people to send their "unruly" kids away instead of lovingly helping them."

"We're sorry for pitting husband against wife."

"We're sorry for expecting you to live up to unrealistic standards and then making you feel like crap for not living up to them."

And on and on....

When Bob and Dottie Moynihan were sitting in my house confronting me about sending true Biblical research to a friend at headquarters - Bob very sarcastically said, "IF .... IF..... IF I ever hurt someone, I'm sorry" <_<

Seems to me the very same verses they used to condemn me actually apply to them: Pride goeth before a fall.... stubbornness is as of the sin of witchcraft.... before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honour humility... But the tongue can no man tame; [it is] an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

It's amazing to me how the things they said to me directly, in teachings and in merely offhanded comments still come back to me - sometimes in the most awful ways and places. My memory sucks! But the things I wish I could forget seem to stick around forever and surface when I least expect them and sometimes when I least am able to "deal with" them.

I don't know what, if anything I'm asking.... Just hearing Paul Brooks and the Moynihan's abusive comments in my head this morning set me off, I guess...

Edited July 30, 2006 by Belle

[Kevlar2000]

Belle,

I don't know that the Way International, as a corporate body, will ever retract or apologize for things done in the past.

It would not be wise legally. To admit they ever "officially" endorsed these kinds of behavior might make them liable to any number of civil (if not criminal) lawsuits.

It would not fit with their dogma- the whole "forgetting the past" thing. That obviously includes their past - look how many times Wierwille and Martindale are mentioned on their very own website.

And, if you are "more than conquerors," you don't need to apologize to those to whom the good seed of the Word (their version of it, anyway) has fallen on stony ground. All of us ex-way are just bitter and hard-harded - not meek to receive doctrine, reproof or correction.

They also like to practice a sort of "selective" amnesia. "We never said you had to sell your house - you just won't be able to participate 'fully' in our classes if you have any debt." Of course, the unspoken truth is, if you can't participate 'fully', you're not really a member of the "Household", and are not really to be trusted. (That crap still staggers me - the whole 'no-debt' foolishness.)

Unless the cash flow becomes so meager that they're forced to either lighten up on their disciples or become even more restrictive and draconian, or unless the IRS takes away their tax-exemption, why would they feel the need to change?

[GrouchoMarxJr]

For them to admit to all of the wrongs they have done to people would mean the end of their organization.

They would have to admit that Wierwille was wrong in much of what he taught and that he was a drunken, womanizing, plagiarist. They would have to admit to Martindale's many destructive decisions and his selfish, self serving, egotistical behavior. They would have to admit that they ran off hundreds (probably thousands) of faithful men and women who had stood with them and deserved better...They would have to admit to destroying the lives of so many wonderful people...

...Where does that leave them? They would have absolutely NO credibility left...NONE. There would be no reason for them to exist any longer...and that would mean the end of their plush lives living off of all that money collected throughout the years.

[watersedge]

money money money

sure makes the world keep on spinning

so sad

[QuietThinker]

Hi Belle,

I read the posts here, then read them again. I know one of the hardest things for me to take, and the one thing that still sticks in my mind as pivotal more than any other *single* thing, is this idea: I'd like to know if, while they were actually "counseling", that those in leadership ever questioned themselves and their own authority when they were offering counsel on issues for which they had no professional training...like marriage counseling...like financial planning (or lack thereof)...and if so, after some these leaders left twi, if they think, at all, about the damage they did under "the Word."

I had a talk with a GS friend who posed to me the idea that because of the way leadership, specifically WC leadership, were trained and taught, that it might not ever have hit them that the doctrines under which they were functioning were suspect (until, perhaps, those individuals left).

Recently, while researching several old threads, I found the names of the LCs from my area...the same guy who told me by "revelation" that my issues as a wife all stemmed from the "sexual abuse" I'd endured from my own brothers as a child. I've mentioned this in my initial introductory post on my story...but, since that NEVER happened, and my own brothers are all fine, upstanding men--such spurious, evil and vicious lies made me sick at the time...and since I've been here and learned about the *real* horrors and abuses that some people actually DID endure, I am even more appalled it could have been suggested.

So, imagine my surprise to learn that that same man is thought of affectionately by some posters. These are posters that I think are great people already, and with whom I seem to have a lot in common. So, I know from that their experience was far different, and perhaps the "counseling session" I endured with this guy is an abberration. Now that I know where this fella landed, I've toyed with the idea of emailing and saying, "Hey, remember me? I'm the one whose life you torpedoed on a single afternoon." (there was more to the "session" than just that accusation.

But, I'm not going to. First, I doubt he remembers. What was one little peon in the grand scheme of things when he was so high up. Second, how could he possibly answer in a way that would satisfy me...because even if he were to say, "Sure, I remember you and I'm sorry I was an @ssh0le.", I already know that he was wrong...and years after the fact, why should he care? Why do I still care? I can't answer it, but I do.

I didn't have the strength to leave my bad marriage at that time, when I knew I should. Sure, I had some help staying--the idea that some horrible catastrophe would befall me should I leave was a major one. But, I chose to stay.

I guess what I'm saying is...like I believe you are saying...sometimes I still hear that conversation in my head and I feel angry and embittered all over again. I don't know if it will ever go away. And in some ways, I just want my life to prove that I overcame all the nasty things he said about me.

I'm pretty sure that I'm always going to harbour some very real resentments against this chap. I am now sure that there would some who would be shocked to hear that it *was* this chap who hit me with that bovine guano in the first place...and being here is a help to me. Reading how others, like yourself, are dealing with their questions and process of healing is helping me with my own.

I don't think, however, that I could ever buy into the "kinder, gentler TWI." Not now that I know some of the source.

Still confused over here,

QT

P.S. If faced with this guy on the street, and he was on fire, and I had to choose a bucket of water or a bucket of gasoline to throw on him...I'd like to think I'd choose the water. But, I have to admit...I'd take a long moment to think about the choice first.

[Bramble]

QT, that is unsettling.

I've had the same thing happen to me from reading GSC. Some one I thought was one of the white hats, who treated me great, turned to another believer and tried to destroy them. Weird and ugly to know these things. That is one of the reasons my hubby and I haven't searched out many of our old friends--it is so hard to know if we ever really knew them at all.

[Abigail]

QT, I have had the same thing happen to me in reverse. Hearing horror stories about leadership I loved and respected.

I think a decent portion of the descrepency had to do with personality. Not necessary a lack of personality on behalf of the person who was railroaded, but simply on how well the leadership knew you and whether or not they considered you a friend. Our region coordinator backed me on a number of issues where I disagreed with Way Corp (I was never Corp). But our region coordinator also knew me, as I cleaned their home and spent time with them long before the Way Corp I had issues with came to town.

"I have no friends when it comes to the Word" was applied very haphazardly and was largely used to separate one from outside friends and family. Inside TWI, having friends was crucial to survival.

[oldiesman]

BUT, they aren't doing anything to rectify the damage, are they? If they were genuinely sincere, wouldn't they address and acknowledge the areas where they KNOW they screwed up?

Probably not...

I opine that they probably view their relationship with participants as no more than a 50/50 partnership responsibility between them and the participant, and any screw ups that may be asserted to be "their fault" might be viewed no more than 50% their fault at most, and at least 50% fault of the participant, since their probable view of a twi participant is that they "freely availed" themselves to participate.

[Belle]

First, I doubt he remembers. What was one little peon in the grand scheme of things when he was so high up. Second, how could he possibly answer in a way that would satisfy me...because even if he were to say, "Sure, I remember you and I'm sorry I was an @ssh0le.", I already know that he was wrong...and years after the fact, why should he care? Why do I still care? I can't answer it, but I do.

I didn't have the strength to leave my bad marriage at that time, when I knew I should. Sure, I had some help staying--the idea that some horrible catastrophe would befall me should I leave was a major one. But, I chose to stay.

I guess what I'm saying is...like I believe you are saying...sometimes I still hear that conversation in my head and I feel angry and embittered all over again. I don't know if it will ever go away. And in some ways, I just want my life to prove that I overcame all the nasty things he said about me.

QT, that's exactly what I was trying to say. :) Thank you!

It bothers me that it still bothers me more than anything else. It bothers me that the most inane thing can trigger those voices in my head. Like, I'll be cleaning my bathroom shower and hear Dottie telling some little girl to be sure to get the tracks really clean because "Rev Moynihan" really likes clean tracks.

There really isn't anything they can say that would change how I feel. I wouldn't believe them anyway, I don't think. Certainly not most of them. I have talked to and cleared things up with some of the WC and other leaders who have come through my life, and I do adore and admire them, so I know it's possible. But honestly, those folks never really did anything close to what the others did in my life.

I went through the same thoughts with my marriage, too. What was worse was not having anyone to talk to - especially nobody who could really understand where we were coming from. I could talk to my parents and friends, but they don't know or understand the cult. I couldn't trust anyone who was involved with the cult and so all I had was the great folks here at the cafe and boy, oh, boy, did they help!

[Nottawayfer]

But as committed wayfers, we knew was the real deal was with "freely availing" ourselves. If we wanted to leave, it wasn't as easy as deciding not to freely avail ourselves anymore.

Oldies, I know you were in a different time that a lot of us. Please keep my contents in context of the time frame in which I am speaking.

[oldiesman]

Please keep my contents in context of the time frame in which I am speaking.

I will be happy to, if and when I respond to any of your comments and the time frame in which you are speaking.

[vickles]

Hi Belle,

I read the posts here, then read them again. I know one of the hardest things for me to take, and the one thing that still sticks in my mind as pivotal more than any other *single* thing, is this idea: I'd like to know if, while they were actually "counseling", that those in leadership ever questioned themselves and their own authority when they were offering counsel on issues for which they had no professional training...like marriage counseling...like financial planning (or lack thereof)...and if so, after some these leaders left twi, if they think, at all, about the damage they did under "the Word."

I had a talk with a GS friend who posed to me the idea that because of the way leadership, specifically WC leadership, were trained and taught, that it might not ever have hit them that the doctrines under which they were functioning were suspect (until, perhaps, those individuals left).

Recently, while researching several old threads, I found the names of the LCs from my area...the same guy who told me by "revelation" that my issues as a wife all stemmed from the "sexual abuse" I'd endured from my own brothers as a child. I've mentioned this in my initial introductory post on my story...but, since that NEVER happened, and my own brothers are all fine, upstanding men--such spurious, evil and vicious lies made me sick at the time...and since I've been here and learned about the *real* horrors and abuses that some people actually DID endure, I am even more appalled it could have been suggested.

So, imagine my surprise to learn that that same man is thought of affectionately by some posters. These are posters that I think are great people already, and with whom I seem to have a lot in common. So, I know from that their experience was far different, and perhaps the "counseling session" I endured with this guy is an abberration. Now that I know where this fella landed, I've toyed with the idea of emailing and saying, "Hey, remember me? I'm the one whose life you torpedoed on a single afternoon." (there was more to the "session" than just that accusation.

But, I'm not going to. First, I doubt he remembers. What was one little peon in the grand scheme of things when he was so high up. Second, how could he possibly answer in a way that would satisfy me...because even if he were to say, "Sure, I remember you and I'm sorry I was an @ssh0le.", I already know that he was wrong...and years after the fact, why should he care? Why do I still care? I can't answer it, but I do.

I didn't have the strength to leave my bad marriage at that time, when I knew I should. Sure, I had some help staying--the idea that some horrible catastrophe would befall me should I leave was a major one. But, I chose to stay.

I guess what I'm saying is...like I believe you are saying...sometimes I still hear that conversation in my head and I feel angry and embittered all over again. I don't know if it will ever go away. And in some ways, I just want my life to prove that I overcame all the nasty things he said about me.

I'm pretty sure that I'm always going to harbour some very real resentments against this chap. I am now sure that there would some who would be shocked to hear that it *was* this chap who hit me with that bovine guano in the first place...and being here is a help to me. Reading how others, like yourself, are dealing with their questions and process of healing is helping me with my own.

I don't think, however, that I could ever buy into the "kinder, gentler TWI." Not now that I know some of the source.

Still confused over here,

QT

P.S. If faced with this guy on the street, and he was on fire, and I had to choose a bucket of water or a bucket of gasoline to throw on him...I'd like to think I'd choose the water. But, I have to admit...I'd take a long moment to think about the choice first.

I know exactly who your talking about. It happened to me too except it wasn't sexual abuse, I was possessed, he didn't know exactly what devil spirit it was but from something generational in my family. Don't bother with him as he won't remember anything. He knew me every year even said my name until he left twi and then couldn't remember me from adam or anything that he told me.

[QuietThinker]

You're right Vickles :-)

hehe, you know, once when my ex told me I was poooozzzeeeeessseed-ah...

I kindly pointed out that he was labouring under the influence of the spirit of J@ck..... Of course, never having had the "advanced class" I couldn't be sure of the "technical name."

I'm pretty sure this guy has the same buddy...

hehe,

QT

sorry, I forgot to fix the swearing the first time...the @ is so helpful!

Edited July 31, 2006 by QuietThinker

[Tom Strange]

Don't bother with him as he won't remember anything. He knew me every year even said my name until he left twi and then couldn't remember me from adam or anything that he told me.

Does anyone here think that maybe some of the leadership was being influenced by devil spirits from above (higher leadership)???

[QuietThinker]

Tom: Yes. Abso-freakin'-lutely

QT

[Tom Strange]

yeah QT... I gathered that from your post (but you posted while I was typing)... sorry for the redundancy...

That could be a whole 'nother topic... Leadership operating/influenced by Devil Spirits...

Edited July 31, 2006 by Tom Strange

[rhino]

I'm guessin' some of those guys wanted no liability from their past so developed a quick case of amnesia.

Maybe it was just ego superseding heart ... their drive to move up the ladder trumped all. Once the ladder was gone they just wanted to move on ... who are all those little people they've been stepping on anyway? Devil spirit or character flaw?

[Tom Strange]

Devil spirit or character flaw?

whichever you believe in...

[QuietThinker]

Oh, who choose...let's have all of the above, Tom

[vickles]

:blink: Well I think that its the ego talking. But the with these @ssholes it could be all of the above...

[igotout]

Belle, some leaders are just cowards and wimps. They may have acted tough and had license to be abusive, but in reality they had no balls to stand up for what they knew was right. They have what is simply the cult mentality and are too lazy to do anything about it but stay in their boring, lifeless ruts. They are like some spineless corporate executives I know, only with VERY meager salaries. At least the spineless executives bring home the bacon.

A less than abundant life indeed !

Thanks God we can breathe fresh air.

John R

Tampa, FL

[Twinky]

A mean attitude is a mean attitude. If you started out with a bad attitude, probably the "discipline" of WC made it much worse.

The mean things that were said to me sometime echo in my mind, wish they didn't, and still make me angry. They weren't true about me, but they betrayed such a poor attitude from the person saying them, from the time we first met - before we both went WC. He was hard then and is concrete now.

Too busy thinking about the specks in their victims' eyes and consistently overlooked the beam in their own eyes.

How nice and friendly it can be on the outside!

Edited August 2, 2006 by Twinky

[doojable]

My two cents here - if you will....

Some leaders were good men and women that were good to many - then succumbed (Nice word!) to the evil all around them.

Still others were the opposite - men and women that were just abso-freakin-lutley mean at the beginning- then they got smart and realized they weren't doing what God wanted. (it happens!)

THEN - there were the arses who were arses to begin with and then got possesed with the spirit of "Horse's-arse" Those were the generals!

I'll venture a bet that some of the same people that hurt some of you are repenting and regretful of their actions.

(I said. "SOME" not "ALL")

Please give me time to duck before you throw the eggs....

[Belle]

There will be no egg throwing on this thread, Dooj!! That's on WhiteDove's Pig thread in open!

Yes, thank God people change. Pity it hasn't affected ALL the people who are left in TWI.

[Patriot]

My two cents here - if you will....

Some leaders were good men and women that were good to many - then succumbed (Nice word!) to the evil all around them....

I'll venture a bet that some of the same people that hurt some of you are repenting and regretful of their actions.

(I said. "SOME" not "ALL")

Yes Dooj, I appreciate you mentioning that some started off with all the best intentions. Personally, I know there are several occasions that I zigged when I should have zagged (e.g. been too hard in a particular sense, should have spoken out against things louder, etc.). Sometimes it is a situation of "monkey see, monkey do." I remember several good / well meaning leaders, doing their best, thought it was important to yell, since Mr. Spiritual, LCM yelled. "If you don't yell, you don't care" or aren't spiritual kind of BS.