Quote Oldies---"Twi did not perpetuate this crime... they facilitated Top to strive to be her best in the corps, I believe that was the heart behind the corps.... not her having evils befall her."
OM-I am stunned that you still think this after all you have seen and heard. I do not believe that you are listening because you do not want to hear. And you took one honest comment I made (and I tried to be fair, believe me) and chose to use that as part of your argument to once again protect TWI instead of taking in my entire story.
TWI perpetuated the crime by allowing it to continue-even after a wonderful young man was killed-because of their continued teaching that it was NEGATIVE BELIEVING that caused such things to happen. No, it wasn't their intent-that would make them monsters, and I too believed that they wanted me to be their idea of the best-at least that's what I thought. But once evil did befall me, once again BECAUSE OF THEIR POLICY AND PRACTICE, they did nothing, NOTHING, to help me in the aftermath or to stop the practice or to insure that others did not have the same fate befall them. No-they did not invent the concept of hitchhiking. But they used it as part of their curriculum as a requirement, irregardless of the potential consequences. They simply continued along the same path, hoping for the best and covering up the worse. Any group who did that today would be crucified on the front page of every paper and web site available.
I have not remained a victim in thought or action. I have moved on with my life, because thankfully I still had a life to move on with, unlike others. But their actions-and lack of actions-profoundly changed the direction of my life.
One of the purposes of this forum is to bring to light the abusives that began the downward spiral of the organization and of the damage to people's lives, and hopefully to make those still in understand the history of this group and compare that to where it is today. That is my reason for coming forward, not for symphathy or attention, believe me. But insensitive and downright stupid logic coming out of people's mouths to defend what participation in the group did to some of us makes me angry, so I came out of the woodwork.
I am going to BELIEVE with all my heart that something will move in the hearts of the unbelievers to make them see the light. Let's test the law of believing, shall we???
My apologies for the words in all caps-I did try to keep them to a minimum. Breathe, breathe.........
I would have felt terrible, but I wouldn't have blamed twi. I would have blamed the perpetrators of the crime.
And as Top pointed out, this type of thing could have happened in or out of twi.
Twi did not perpetuate this crime... they facilitated Top to strive to be her best in the corps, I believe that was the heart behind the corps.... not her having evils befall her.
You say we all need to find compassion and mercy, but you yourself show little if none toward your twi brethren, so who are you to preach?
Depends on the facts of the situation.
Are you really this heartless and cold? or are you just ignorant?
TWI did not perpetuate this crime.. TWI FACILITATED THIS CRIME. If not for TWI, and their RULE, she wouldn't have been in this situation. Yes, as she said, it could've happened anyway... but she also told you she wouldn't have ever done it unless it was required. She did not want to hitch.
Doojable, thanks for your opinions and insight. I will consider them.
Sure you will... sure... and it's really a pleasant 72 degrees outside right now...
They should have stopped the hitching long before this happened to her.
They should have stopped the hitching long before Ken died.
They should have stopped a lot of things long before they got to where they did...
OM--------- Ever seen "Mississippi Burning"? Those kids went there with a mission to fulfil and a noble mission it was indeed. Could they have abandoned their mission and walked away? I submit that in a physical sense they could have done just that. Did they? Hell no! Why not ? Because they had the conviction to follow through with what they believed and thought it would make this country a better place to live in. GOD BLESS them for their sacrifises. I not asking you to equate our men and women of such programs as WOW, WC, FL and so on with civil rights activists . I'm merely trying to help you see they may have been driven by the same selfless motives, and desire to see people set free from spiritual bondage. The fact that they were victimized in the process in no way excuses the actions of the victimizers. I applaud them for taking action in the face of adversity.
I was thinking tonight (uh-oh dangerous stuff!) Many of us did not leave because we were wanting to keep our commitment to God.
When thou vowest a vow defer not to pay it. Proverbs....
We wanted to please God. We wanted to do our best for His Highest. Can't you see that leaving wasn't really a viable option? (This isn't only for OM - its for any lurkers still out there thinking that we still had the choice to leave)
I always have hated it when I see how some people have the talent of using a person's wanting to do what is right to help further evil. And believe me - many of the ordained MOG's had that talent - not all, but many.
When thou vowest a vow defer not to pay it. Proverbs
Another example of beating us to death with Scripture waiting (hoping) we'd fall flat on our face so they could take yet another piece out of us.....until there was not enough left to care about.
I think the opposite is the case. Some posters have the unrelenting mindset for blaming twi for most everything bad that happened to a participant, while in twi. TWI is always guilty, or nearly always guilty. It is always their fault. Well, I think that mindset is skewed, biased, unmerciful, and unChristian, and I am glad I think differently.
Well -- good for you. Think what you will.
Who said "there is none so blind, as he that will not see?"
You fall into that category.
Surely -- choice was involved in many categories,
and surely -- coercion was used by twi (cough!!) --
spiritually to realize an end to their *goals*.
Twi is being blamed for the things expected of us (followers),
that they (headquarters folks) would never do.
IMHO -- It's MORE than just a valid complaint.
I was told to hitchhike to Lead (1985), and I wasn't even corps.
I had a car -- told the leaders to (nemmermind what I told them).
Others here -- knuckled under to the *directive*.
And YES -- if you didn't hitch to LEAD -- you didn't deserve to be there.
I wuz the odd ball in our twig that didn't give a ratzz azz about what leadership thought.
Everyone else hitched -- I drove.
Had a great time at LEAD -- also without the pressure of hitching.
Sadly -- it was cut short by two days -- cause docvic died -- while I was scaling the rocks.
Of a certainty -- some things get blown out of proportion --
but to categorically deny that ANYTHING happened ---
because you didn't see it, or think it is *skewed*,
because of a *hate* for twi
means folks like us need to pick up the shovels,
and help shovel more sand over your *ostrich* head,
that is buried, to evade the truth.
Sorry -- Phil -- You make some good points at times,
but lately -- sadly -- you're lacking.
It's time to pull your head out of the sand, and smell the coffee,
Doojable, thanks for your opinions and insight. I will consider them.
And a few months from now,
we'll be seeing EXACTLY the same posts ALL OVER AGAIN,
as if Dooj never offered him insight.
We've seen this one before. Others have pointed it out before.
Some posters-MOST posters, arrive here thinking vpw was
fantastic and innocent and stuff.
As they learn things over time, they discover what they THOUGHT they knew
wasn't what they THOUGHT it was.
They eliminate some of their black-and-white thinking,
and discover "the good old days weren't always good."
A few posters arrive and have already made up their minds
to hold on to their previous opinion and bludgeon anyone who tries
to introduce contrary opinions, information or insights.
It's disgraceful and sad, but what can you do about them?
Om - I have plenty of compassion and mercy for those in twi. Many, many were taken in by the systematized error that became the web of destruction.
I have not blamed one single person for these wrongs. I do lay some blame at the feet of those in charge - those that were in the position of watchmen. I can do this because the Word says that if the watchman sees the trouble and does nothing about it he or she is wrong. If the watchman is asleep and not keeping watch - he or she is wrong. The first (or at most, the second) time that something bad happened during a hitchhiking incident - there should have been some changes made.
As I understand God's take on those in authority it is one of service and respect for those served. Yes, the people are supposed to obey. AND - that very obedience requires the diligence of the leaders. On this subject - hitchiking - diligence was not taken.
It is not unmerciful to see a wrong and point it out. It is irresponsible to see a wrong and do nothing.
Now if you were in authority and saw the wrong and did nothing.....well - then may God have mercy on you. (You meaning anyone who this shoe fits.)
IMHO
Here's what Dooj posted. And what OM will delete from active memory as soon as
Twi did not perpetuate this crime... they facilitated Top to strive to be her best in the corps, I believe that was the heart behind the corps.... not her having evils befall her.
Same answer can be applied to the following....
A leader gathers all the wows in the state together.
He announces a massive witnessing campaign for "the people who need it the most."
He sends dozens of wows into housing projects to speak God's Word.
By morning,
several have emerged with contacts from people who want to hear more
or attend twigs.
Several have emerged empty-handed.
A few were mugged.
Two were raped.
Is the leader who sent them there to be blamed?
According to OM's thinking, not at all.
He didn't mug or rape anyone.
His goals were laudable-help the wows grow, help people hear, help more pfal classes start.
He facilitated the wows to be the best in the wow program.
That was his INTENTION-not to have evil befall them.
Therefore, despite the fact that his direct instructions REQUIRED them to be placed
in a position of unnecessary risk, OM would say he bears NO responsibility for anything
that happened to them there.
Perhaps the person failed to believe sufficiently.
The felons, of course, were to blame-everyone agrees about that.
The "heart behind" the instruction means that-
although it was poorly-considered and planned, and placed people in unnecessary risk-
the people who made those decisions are COMPLETELY BLAMELESS.
Quote Oldies---"Twi did not perpetuate this crime... they facilitated Top to strive to be her best in the corps, I believe that was the heart behind the corps.... not her having evils befall her."
OM-I am stunned that you still think this after all you have seen and heard. I do not believe that you are listening because you do not want to hear.
That has been brought up before, but it helps to show new people and
different people all keep coming to the same conclusion.
And you took one honest comment I made (and I tried to be fair, believe me) and chose to use that as part of your argument to once again protect TWI instead of taking in my entire story.
He took part of what TOTW said. When you remove PART of what TOTW said,
do you still have the word of TOTW?
TWI perpetuated the crime by allowing it to continue-even after a wonderful young man was killed-because of their continued teaching that it was NEGATIVE BELIEVING that caused such things to happen. No, it wasn't their intent-that would make them monsters, and I too believed that they wanted me to be their idea of the best-at least that's what I thought. But once evil did befall me, once again
BECAUSE OF THEIR POLICY AND PRACTICE,
they did nothing, NOTHING, to help me in the aftermath
or to stop the practice
or to insure that others did not have the same fate befall them. No-they did not invent the concept of hitchhiking.
But they used it as part of their curriculum as a requirement,
irregardless of the potential consequences.
They simply continued along the same path, hoping for the best and covering up the worse. Any group who did that today would be crucified on the front page of every paper and web site available.
I have not remained a victim in thought or action. I have moved on with my life, because thankfully I still had a life to move on with, unlike others. But their actions-and lack of actions-profoundly changed the direction of my life.
One of the purposes of this forum is to bring to light the abusives that began the downward spiral of the organization and of the damage to people's lives, and hopefully to make those still in understand the history of this group and compare that to where it is today. That is my reason for coming forward, not for symphathy or attention, believe me. But insensitive and downright stupid logic coming out of people's mouths to defend what participation in the group did to some of us makes me angry, so I came out of the woodwork.
I am going to BELIEVE with all my heart that something will move in the hearts of the unbelievers to make them see the light. Let's test the law of believing, shall we???
My apologies for the words in all caps-I did try to keep them to a minimum. Breathe, breathe.........
Well, SOME people will see the point clearly.
Some others will see someone outlining their "defense",
and see how it miserably fails to make sense in the face of sensible discussion,
and how slapping labels on things does not change the substance of them.
(Even vpw said that putting the label 'apple-butter' on a jar of pickles does not
change the pickles on the inside.)
So, the lurkers have a chance to "get it" even without posting, because their positions
because it's part of the same set of policies and practices.
(No matter what one or 2 people say.)
WordWolf:
If you hadn't taken pfal, you were leaned on to take pfal.
If you had taken pfal but not the intermediate, you were leaned on to take pfal.
If you had taken the intermediate but not the advanced, you were leaned on to take the advanced.
If you completed the advanced, you were leaned on to go wow.
If you finished wow AND the advanced (either order), you were leaned on to go corps.
What if you didn't go corps?
Well, then the subject is dropped-today.
Tomorrow it will come up again.
And the next day.
I was thinking tonight (uh-oh dangerous stuff!) Many of us did not leave because we were wanting to keep our commitment to God.
When thou vowest a vow defer not to pay it. Proverbs....
We wanted to please God. We wanted to do our best for His Highest. Can't you see that leaving wasn't really a viable option? (This isn't only for OM - its for any lurkers still out there thinking that we still had the choice to leave)
I always have hated it when I see how some people have the talent of using a person's wanting to do what is right to help further evil. And believe me - many of the ordained MOG's had that talent - not all, but many.
In short, once you showed up, you were on either the fast track or the slow track
to going corps and thus, hitchhiking and going to LEAD.
The slow track:
you were never a viable candidate for the corps,
so you'll be sold as many classes as possible, and that you can be talked into.
The fast track:
you're the right age for the corps.
You will now be leaned on first to take all classes,
THEN to go corps.
To NOT go corps means you'll have to make the deliberate decision NOT to
go at some point, and steadfastly maintain it from then on,
and ignore anything said about you from then on.
The "screening process" for the corps was encapsulated in vpw's phrase
"You can stay as long as your money holds!"
After that, people were released from the corps only on 2 conditions:
A) they became a financial or legal liability
or
B) vpw got into a mood and kicked them out or their entire class out
For a program touted as highly as the way corps was,
it was ill-conceived,
ill-prepared,
and ill-executed,
and ill-screened.
Diligence and consideration SHOULD have been part of each step.
The only things we saw "diligence" in (mostly) were
"is your money on time?" and "I read your 'birth to the corps' paper."
The "screening process" for the corps was encapsulated in vpw's phrase
"You can stay as long as your money holds!"
Yeah, for all the hoopla about the Corps being for the most qualified, that only was true of a few of us, most corpse were scum.
But really, no one was turned away, there was always a place for the goofballs (you know who I'm talking about)
OK, sorry again, but the most qualified never got caught up in twi, then many of the very qualified briefly in twi steered clear of a lot of the major bs and persued those lowly secular jobs (and now make six figures) or found more productive organizations that actually used their wealth to help people, not to build shrines.
One father of a corps guy, an executive type was talking about vp as being so hard headed. About the WOW auditorium, he said he knew somewhere there was some guy waiting with a chisel to put VP's name on there after he died. The real qualified people had a pretty clear picture of what was going on, while we with the "in depth spiritual perception and awareness" were just twisting in the wind.
Are you really this heartless and cold? or are you just ignorant?
TWI did not perpetuate this crime.. TWI FACILITATED THIS CRIME. If not for TWI, and their RULE, she wouldn't have been in this situation. Yes, as she said, it could've happened anyway... but she also told you she wouldn't have ever done it unless it was required. She did not want to hitch.
Tom, I just don't buy the logic. (or illogic). I don't mean to be cold, although I'm sure you'll express it that way, but I believe that if Top didn't want to hitch, she shouldn't have entered the corps. She should have researched her time/investment, found out exactly what was expected before entering. True enough, one does look like a wuss when one is there and tries to back out, so that was a no-no as Top mentioned.
Accordingly had TWI stopped folks from hitchhiking and instead had them drive cars & trucks, some posters would assess blame if someone fell asleep at the wheel. TWI will always be wrong in some posters' minds, because some mindsets are to accuse and assess blame at every opportunity. Twi is always wrong, in these posters' hearts and minds.
Twi didn't facilitate the crime. Again, I blame those who committed the crime. How about blaming the adversary as you blame twi? Or maybe you don't believe in the devil any more?
lol..maaaaybe *some posters* accuse and assess blame at every oportunity because twi WAS wrong...dreadfully, tragically and horribly so.
and damned if we didn`t pay the price for the *wrongness* Some paid more dearly than others...but we all paid in one form or another.
*Blame the adversary* Has ALWAYS been twi`s way of cowardly dodging their responsibility and the consequenses of their evil heartless, self serving actions.
OM--------- Ever seen "Mississippi Burning"? Those kids went there with a mission to fulfil and a noble mission it was indeed. Could they have abandoned their mission and walked away? I submit that in a physical sense they could have done just that. Did they? Hell no! Why not ? Because they had the conviction to follow through with what they believed and thought it would make this country a better place to live in. GOD BLESS them for their sacrifises. I not asking you to equate our men and women of such programs as WOW, WC, FL and so on with civil rights activists . I'm merely trying to help you see they may have been driven by the same selfless motives, and desire to see people set free from spiritual bondage. The fact that they were victimized in the process in no way excuses the actions of the victimizers. I applaud them for taking action in the face of adversity.
Waysider, I do equate our men & women of twi who performed exploits like WOW and corps as making selfless sacrifices and having godly conviction. And I give a special thumbs up to those who performed these feats, without whining and b*tching about it. And I do agree, the fact that some were victimized in the process doesn't excuse the victimizers. We just seem to disagree on who those victimizers were at certain times and incidents, which is ok with me.
Twi is being blamed for the things expected of us (followers),
that they (headquarters folks) would never do.
IMHO -- It's MORE than just a valid complaint.
I was told to hitchhike to Lead (1985), and I wasn't even corps.
I had a car -- told the leaders to (nemmermind what I told them).
Others here -- knuckled under to the *directive*.
And YES -- if you didn't hitch to LEAD -- you didn't deserve to be there.
I wuz the odd ball in our twig that didn't give a ratzz azz about what leadership thought.
Everyone else hitched -- I drove.
Had a great time at LEAD -- also without the pressure of hitching.
Sadly -- it was cut short by two days -- cause docvic died -- while I was scaling the rocks.
David, I'm glad you got what you wanted but had it been me making the decision, I would have upheld the requirement to hitchhike for everyone. Or else let everyone drive. Why are you so special?
Otherwise, if one is too timid or lazy to hitch, then stay home.
The way I see it (and perhaps this was their thinking as well) if folks can't believe to hitch a ride they can't believe to climb rocks. Of course David you proved that you could drive and still climb rocks. I'm glad you had a profitable time.
Please, please remember...TOTW was 10th Corps with me. Our first year in rez was the first LEAD program. It was not required for all the in-rez beings yet. Only the 8th Corps went and a few "select" 10th got to go.
Now if THAT isn't a set up, what is? By the time we came back from our interim year we WANTED to go LEAD! We WANTED to do whatever it took to make us grow.
I also seem to remember how vpw and lcm used to rant and tell us that we should never, NEVER expect "our people" to do anything that we would not do or had never done.
Let me tell you, lcm may have hitched a few times, but he never accompanied the corps and hitched alongside us just to see "the spiritual temperature" out there. I'm not sure vpw EVER hitched prior to or after he was king - errr - president of twi.
Remember, the saying, "revelation may change when circumstances change."????
I'd say that people dying and getting raped during hitching was a major change in circumstance.
I repeat - the watchmen were asleep. For THAT they are wrong.
Regarding the argument that if they drove (see conjecture below*), we would be blaming twi for someone falling asleep at the wheel. Well that may or may not be true - It doesn't change the truth of the argument at hand. Please keep your red herring in your pocket.
*Depends - knowing twi they would have put an unreasonable timeframe on arrival that would have set up some unsafe conditions - but that's all conjecture. IF they had the wherewithal to use cars and safe drivers - perhaps they also would have taken some safety precautions - we'll never know. My point is that IF they were a different kind of ministry we might not all be here today, we just might be still singing from the blue song book........
I'd say that people dying and getting raped during hitching was a major change in circumstance.
I repeat - the watchmen were asleep. For THAT they are wrong.
Doojable, I just think they were following a different path. I think they looked at these incidents as the adversary ripping us off, and saying "we aren't stopping our training program because we do not admit defeat to the adversary." If they stopped hitchhiking, they would be admitting that the adversary won in that situation and stopped the corps from training individuals to abandon their fear of hitchhiking and confidence building ...something that the corps wasn't about. The corps was about pushing the envelope, as you well know.
As crazy as that logic and concept may sound today, I don't see any evil in that. It was part of doctrine of twi and we all bought into it at the time. Today I wouldn't do it. Today, I wouldn't go into the special forces of U.S., I wouldn't and couldn't hack it. But at 18 years old, it might have been an exciting adventure.
A leader gathers all the wows in the state together.
He announces a massive witnessing campaign for "the people who need it the most."
He sends dozens of wows into housing projects to speak God's Word.
By morning,
several have emerged with contacts from people who want to hear more
or attend twigs.
Several have emerged empty-handed.
A few were mugged.
Two were raped.
Is the leader who sent them there to be blamed?
According to OM's thinking, not at all.
He didn't mug or rape anyone.
His goals were laudable-help the wows grow, help people hear, help more pfal classes start.
He facilitated the wows to be the best in the wow program.
That was his INTENTION-not to have evil befall them.
Therefore, despite the fact that his direct instructions REQUIRED them to be placed
in a position of unnecessary risk, OM would say he bears NO responsibility for anything
that happened to them there.
Perhaps the person failed to believe sufficiently.
The felons, of course, were to blame-everyone agrees about that.
The "heart behind" the instruction means that-
although it was poorly-considered and planned, and placed people in unnecessary risk-
the people who made those decisions are COMPLETELY BLAMELESS.
That's applying OM's standard to this situation.
INTENT IS EVERYTHING.
RESULTS DON'T MATTER.
Oldiesman:
Wordwolf, your assessment here is pretty good, although I definitely wouldn't say that results (crimes) don't matter.
Since your answer to that one is "the leader is completely blameless"
"go ahead and do that again anytime, that's fine",
then either the RESULTS don't matter (participants being raped or killed doesn't matter)
or the PEOPLE don't matter (anything making them unuseable is a mathematical consideration)
Either way, nearly every thinking person would disagree with you.
I can't think of ANYONE who would expect that program to continue,
and the leader to not get into LEGAL trouble.
===========================
doojable:
I'd say that people dying and getting raped during hitching was a major change in circumstance.
I repeat - the watchmen were asleep. For THAT they are wrong.
Oldiesman:
Doojable, I just think they were following a different path. I think they looked at these incidents as the adversary ripping us off, and saying "we aren't stopping our training program because we do not admit defeat to the adversary." If they stopped hitchhiking, they would be admitting that the adversary won in that situation and stopped the corps from training individuals to abandon their fear of hitchhiking and confidence building ...something that the corps wasn't about. The corps was about pushing the envelope, as you well know.
As crazy as that logic and concept may sound today, I don't see any evil in that. It was part of doctrine of twi and we all bought into it at the time. Today I wouldn't do it. Today, I wouldn't go into the special forces of U.S., I wouldn't and couldn't hack it. But at 18 years old, it might have been an exciting adventure.
"I just think they were following a different path."
This path involved considering people raped and killed as "the cost of doing business."
Unusual path in the United States...
"I think they looked at these incidents as the adversary ripping us off, and saying "we aren't stopping our training program because we do not admit defeat to the adversary." If they stopped hitchhiking, they would be admitting that the adversary won in that situation and stopped the corps from training individuals to abandon their fear of hitchhiking and confidence building"
Or they could find a way for people to confront fear and increase confidence
WITHOUT making rape and murder an expected consequence for some.
But- if they did that, it would cost money. Hitchhiking was $0.00....
"As crazy as that logic and concept may sound today, I don't see any evil in that. It was part of doctrine of twi and we all bought into it at the time."
"As crazy as that logic and concept may sound today, I don't see any evil in that. It was part of doctrine of twi and we all bought into it at the time."
"As crazy as that logic and concept may sound today, I don't see any evil in that. It was part of doctrine of twi and we all bought into it at the time."
That was worth repeating.
There we have it.
We bought into it then. Therefore-although 20/20 hindsight makes it look crazy-
I DON'T SEE ANYTHING WRONG WITH IT.
We bought into it then.
Anything we bought into then was perfectly fine-never having ANY EVIL.
No matter how clear it looks now with more information, or maturity, or any other information
enlightens us. We did it then, we had good intentions == it was perfectly fine.
Had a problem with it THEN-you were a coward and lacked committment.
Have a problem with it NOW-you're "thinking evil".
Here's how the "requirements" and "committment" process went for the average
corps person....
If you hadn't taken pfal, you were leaned on to take pfal.
If you had taken pfal but not the intermediate, you were leaned on to take pfal.
If you had taken the intermediate but not the advanced, you were leaned on to take the advanced.
If you completed the advanced, you were leaned on to go wow.
If you finished wow AND the advanced (either order), you were leaned on to go corps.
What if you didn't go corps?
Well, then the subject is dropped-today.
Tomorrow it will come up again.
And the next day.
In short, once you showed up, you were on either the fast track or the slow track
to going corps and thus, hitchhiking and going to LEAD.
The slow track:
you were never a viable candidate for the corps,
so you'll be sold as many classes as possible, and that you can be talked into.
The fast track:
you're the right age for the corps.
You will now be leaned on first to take all classes,
THEN to go corps.
To NOT go corps means you'll have to make the deliberate decision NOT to
go at some point, and steadfastly maintain it from then on,
and ignore anything said about you from then on.
The "screening process" for the corps was encapsulated in vpw's phrase
"You can stay as long as your money holds!"
After that, people were released from the corps only on 2 conditions:
A) they became a financial or legal liability
or
B) vpw got into a mood and kicked them out or their entire class out
For a program touted as highly as the way corps was,
it was ill-conceived,
ill-prepared,
and ill-executed,
and ill-screened.
Diligence and consideration SHOULD have been part of each step.
The only things we saw "diligence" in (mostly) were
"is your money on time?" and "I read your 'birth to the corps' paper."
So, you were fairly well swept along by the process unless you made a deliberate
effort to stop. Otherwise, you'd be talked into the next step and the next,
eventually ending up in the corps unless you had a compelling reason NOT
to be there.
That's the OPPOSITE of how MOST groups train and select leaders,
and find candidates for what is supposedly an ELITE program.
And what if you changed your mind?
doojable:
I was thinking tonight (uh-oh dangerous stuff!) Many of us did not leave because we were wanting to keep our commitment to God.
When thou vowest a vow defer not to pay it. Proverbs....
We wanted to please God. We wanted to do our best for His Highest. Can't you see that leaving wasn't really a viable option? (This isn't only for OM - its for any lurkers still out there thinking that we still had the choice to leave)
I always have hated it when I see how some people have the talent of using a person's wanting to do what is right to help further evil. And believe me - many of the ordained MOG's had that talent - not all, but many.
rhino (ex-corps) on the "screening process":
But really, no one was turned away, there was always a place for the goofballs (you know who I'm talking about) wave.gif
OK, sorry again, but the most qualified never got caught up in twi, then many of the very qualified briefly in twi steered clear of a lot of the major bs and persued those lowly secular jobs (and now make six figures) or found more productive organizations that actually used their wealth to help people, not to build shrines.
One father of a corps guy, an executive type was talking about vp as being so hard headed. About the WOW auditorium, he said he knew somewhere there was some guy waiting with a chisel to put VP's name on there after he died. The real qualified people had a pretty clear picture of what was going on, while we with the "in depth spiritual perception and awareness" were just twisting in the wind.
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rascal
Rhino posted on the roa thread about driving while exhausted putting himself, his passenger and other drivers at serious risk in order to get to roa (wish I knew how to cut and cross post) Here's th
outandabout
If we're not supposed to use our "five senses", why did God give them to us?
oldiesman
Doojable, thanks for your opinions and insight. I will consider them.
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topoftheworld
Quote Oldies---"Twi did not perpetuate this crime... they facilitated Top to strive to be her best in the corps, I believe that was the heart behind the corps.... not her having evils befall her."
OM-I am stunned that you still think this after all you have seen and heard. I do not believe that you are listening because you do not want to hear. And you took one honest comment I made (and I tried to be fair, believe me) and chose to use that as part of your argument to once again protect TWI instead of taking in my entire story.
TWI perpetuated the crime by allowing it to continue-even after a wonderful young man was killed-because of their continued teaching that it was NEGATIVE BELIEVING that caused such things to happen. No, it wasn't their intent-that would make them monsters, and I too believed that they wanted me to be their idea of the best-at least that's what I thought. But once evil did befall me, once again BECAUSE OF THEIR POLICY AND PRACTICE, they did nothing, NOTHING, to help me in the aftermath or to stop the practice or to insure that others did not have the same fate befall them. No-they did not invent the concept of hitchhiking. But they used it as part of their curriculum as a requirement, irregardless of the potential consequences. They simply continued along the same path, hoping for the best and covering up the worse. Any group who did that today would be crucified on the front page of every paper and web site available.
I have not remained a victim in thought or action. I have moved on with my life, because thankfully I still had a life to move on with, unlike others. But their actions-and lack of actions-profoundly changed the direction of my life.
One of the purposes of this forum is to bring to light the abusives that began the downward spiral of the organization and of the damage to people's lives, and hopefully to make those still in understand the history of this group and compare that to where it is today. That is my reason for coming forward, not for symphathy or attention, believe me. But insensitive and downright stupid logic coming out of people's mouths to defend what participation in the group did to some of us makes me angry, so I came out of the woodwork.
I am going to BELIEVE with all my heart that something will move in the hearts of the unbelievers to make them see the light. Let's test the law of believing, shall we???
My apologies for the words in all caps-I did try to keep them to a minimum. Breathe, breathe.........
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Tom Strange
Are you really this heartless and cold? or are you just ignorant?
TWI did not perpetuate this crime.. TWI FACILITATED THIS CRIME. If not for TWI, and their RULE, she wouldn't have been in this situation. Yes, as she said, it could've happened anyway... but she also told you she wouldn't have ever done it unless it was required. She did not want to hitch.
Sure you will... sure... and it's really a pleasant 72 degrees outside right now...
They should have stopped the hitching long before this happened to her.
They should have stopped the hitching long before Ken died.
They should have stopped a lot of things long before they got to where they did...
But... they didn't care...
and apparently neither did/do you...
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waysider
OM--------- Ever seen "Mississippi Burning"? Those kids went there with a mission to fulfil and a noble mission it was indeed. Could they have abandoned their mission and walked away? I submit that in a physical sense they could have done just that. Did they? Hell no! Why not ? Because they had the conviction to follow through with what they believed and thought it would make this country a better place to live in. GOD BLESS them for their sacrifises. I not asking you to equate our men and women of such programs as WOW, WC, FL and so on with civil rights activists . I'm merely trying to help you see they may have been driven by the same selfless motives, and desire to see people set free from spiritual bondage. The fact that they were victimized in the process in no way excuses the actions of the victimizers. I applaud them for taking action in the face of adversity.
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doojable
I was thinking tonight (uh-oh dangerous stuff!) Many of us did not leave because we were wanting to keep our commitment to God.
When thou vowest a vow defer not to pay it. Proverbs....
We wanted to please God. We wanted to do our best for His Highest. Can't you see that leaving wasn't really a viable option? (This isn't only for OM - its for any lurkers still out there thinking that we still had the choice to leave)
I always have hated it when I see how some people have the talent of using a person's wanting to do what is right to help further evil. And believe me - many of the ordained MOG's had that talent - not all, but many.
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krys
Another example of beating us to death with Scripture waiting (hoping) we'd fall flat on our face so they could take yet another piece out of us.....until there was not enough left to care about.
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dmiller
Well -- good for you. Think what you will.
Who said "there is none so blind, as he that will not see?"
You fall into that category.
Surely -- choice was involved in many categories,
and surely -- coercion was used by twi (cough!!) --
spiritually to realize an end to their *goals*.
Twi is being blamed for the things expected of us (followers),
that they (headquarters folks) would never do.
IMHO -- It's MORE than just a valid complaint.
I was told to hitchhike to Lead (1985), and I wasn't even corps.
I had a car -- told the leaders to (nemmermind what I told them).
Others here -- knuckled under to the *directive*.
And YES -- if you didn't hitch to LEAD -- you didn't deserve to be there.
I wuz the odd ball in our twig that didn't give a ratzz azz about what leadership thought.
Everyone else hitched -- I drove.
Had a great time at LEAD -- also without the pressure of hitching.
Sadly -- it was cut short by two days -- cause docvic died -- while I was scaling the rocks.
Of a certainty -- some things get blown out of proportion --
but to categorically deny that ANYTHING happened ---
because you didn't see it, or think it is *skewed*,
because of a *hate* for twi
means folks like us need to pick up the shovels,
and help shovel more sand over your *ostrich* head,
that is buried, to evade the truth.
Sorry -- Phil -- You make some good points at times,
but lately -- sadly -- you're lacking.
It's time to pull your head out of the sand, and smell the coffee,
or roses. Or whatever.
David
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WordWolf
And a few months from now,
we'll be seeing EXACTLY the same posts ALL OVER AGAIN,
as if Dooj never offered him insight.
We've seen this one before. Others have pointed it out before.
Some posters-MOST posters, arrive here thinking vpw was
fantastic and innocent and stuff.
As they learn things over time, they discover what they THOUGHT they knew
wasn't what they THOUGHT it was.
They eliminate some of their black-and-white thinking,
and discover "the good old days weren't always good."
A few posters arrive and have already made up their minds
to hold on to their previous opinion and bludgeon anyone who tries
to introduce contrary opinions, information or insights.
It's disgraceful and sad, but what can you do about them?
Here's what Dooj posted. And what OM will delete from active memory as soon as
no one's looking.
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WordWolf
Same answer can be applied to the following....
A leader gathers all the wows in the state together.
He announces a massive witnessing campaign for "the people who need it the most."
He sends dozens of wows into housing projects to speak God's Word.
By morning,
several have emerged with contacts from people who want to hear more
or attend twigs.
Several have emerged empty-handed.
A few were mugged.
Two were raped.
Is the leader who sent them there to be blamed?
According to OM's thinking, not at all.
He didn't mug or rape anyone.
His goals were laudable-help the wows grow, help people hear, help more pfal classes start.
He facilitated the wows to be the best in the wow program.
That was his INTENTION-not to have evil befall them.
Therefore, despite the fact that his direct instructions REQUIRED them to be placed
in a position of unnecessary risk, OM would say he bears NO responsibility for anything
that happened to them there.
Perhaps the person failed to believe sufficiently.
The felons, of course, were to blame-everyone agrees about that.
The "heart behind" the instruction means that-
although it was poorly-considered and planned, and placed people in unnecessary risk-
the people who made those decisions are COMPLETELY BLAMELESS.
That's applying OM's standard to this situation.
INTENT IS EVERYTHING.
RESULTS DON'T MATTER.
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WordWolf
That has been brought up before, but it helps to show new people and
different people all keep coming to the same conclusion.
He took part of what TOTW said. When you remove PART of what TOTW said,do you still have the word of TOTW?
Well, SOME people will see the point clearly.
Some others will see someone outlining their "defense",
and see how it miserably fails to make sense in the face of sensible discussion,
and how slapping labels on things does not change the substance of them.
(Even vpw said that putting the label 'apple-butter' on a jar of pickles does not
change the pickles on the inside.)
So, the lurkers have a chance to "get it" even without posting, because their positions
have already been represented-and shot down.
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WordWolf
I wanted to put this together on the same post,
because it's part of the same set of policies and practices.
(No matter what one or 2 people say.)
WordWolf:
In short, once you showed up, you were on either the fast track or the slow track
to going corps and thus, hitchhiking and going to LEAD.
The slow track:
you were never a viable candidate for the corps,
so you'll be sold as many classes as possible, and that you can be talked into.
The fast track:
you're the right age for the corps.
You will now be leaned on first to take all classes,
THEN to go corps.
To NOT go corps means you'll have to make the deliberate decision NOT to
go at some point, and steadfastly maintain it from then on,
and ignore anything said about you from then on.
The "screening process" for the corps was encapsulated in vpw's phrase
"You can stay as long as your money holds!"
After that, people were released from the corps only on 2 conditions:
A) they became a financial or legal liability
or
B) vpw got into a mood and kicked them out or their entire class out
For a program touted as highly as the way corps was,
it was ill-conceived,
ill-prepared,
and ill-executed,
and ill-screened.
Diligence and consideration SHOULD have been part of each step.
The only things we saw "diligence" in (mostly) were
"is your money on time?" and "I read your 'birth to the corps' paper."
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rhino
But really, no one was turned away, there was always a place for the goofballs (you know who I'm talking about)
OK, sorry again, but the most qualified never got caught up in twi, then many of the very qualified briefly in twi steered clear of a lot of the major bs and persued those lowly secular jobs (and now make six figures) or found more productive organizations that actually used their wealth to help people, not to build shrines.
One father of a corps guy, an executive type was talking about vp as being so hard headed. About the WOW auditorium, he said he knew somewhere there was some guy waiting with a chisel to put VP's name on there after he died. The real qualified people had a pretty clear picture of what was going on, while we with the "in depth spiritual perception and awareness" were just twisting in the wind.
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oldiesman
Tom, I just don't buy the logic. (or illogic). I don't mean to be cold, although I'm sure you'll express it that way, but I believe that if Top didn't want to hitch, she shouldn't have entered the corps. She should have researched her time/investment, found out exactly what was expected before entering. True enough, one does look like a wuss when one is there and tries to back out, so that was a no-no as Top mentioned.
Accordingly had TWI stopped folks from hitchhiking and instead had them drive cars & trucks, some posters would assess blame if someone fell asleep at the wheel. TWI will always be wrong in some posters' minds, because some mindsets are to accuse and assess blame at every opportunity. Twi is always wrong, in these posters' hearts and minds.
Twi didn't facilitate the crime. Again, I blame those who committed the crime. How about blaming the adversary as you blame twi? Or maybe you don't believe in the devil any more?
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rascal
lol..maaaaybe *some posters* accuse and assess blame at every oportunity because twi WAS wrong...dreadfully, tragically and horribly so.
and damned if we didn`t pay the price for the *wrongness* Some paid more dearly than others...but we all paid in one form or another.
*Blame the adversary* Has ALWAYS been twi`s way of cowardly dodging their responsibility and the consequenses of their evil heartless, self serving actions.
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oldiesman
Waysider, I do equate our men & women of twi who performed exploits like WOW and corps as making selfless sacrifices and having godly conviction. And I give a special thumbs up to those who performed these feats, without whining and b*tching about it. And I do agree, the fact that some were victimized in the process doesn't excuse the victimizers. We just seem to disagree on who those victimizers were at certain times and incidents, which is ok with me.
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oldiesman
David, I'm glad you got what you wanted but had it been me making the decision, I would have upheld the requirement to hitchhike for everyone. Or else let everyone drive. Why are you so special?
Otherwise, if one is too timid or lazy to hitch, then stay home.
The way I see it (and perhaps this was their thinking as well) if folks can't believe to hitch a ride they can't believe to climb rocks. Of course David you proved that you could drive and still climb rocks. I'm glad you had a profitable time.
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doojable
OM - I hear you - to a point.
Please, please remember...TOTW was 10th Corps with me. Our first year in rez was the first LEAD program. It was not required for all the in-rez beings yet. Only the 8th Corps went and a few "select" 10th got to go.
Now if THAT isn't a set up, what is? By the time we came back from our interim year we WANTED to go LEAD! We WANTED to do whatever it took to make us grow.
I also seem to remember how vpw and lcm used to rant and tell us that we should never, NEVER expect "our people" to do anything that we would not do or had never done.
Let me tell you, lcm may have hitched a few times, but he never accompanied the corps and hitched alongside us just to see "the spiritual temperature" out there. I'm not sure vpw EVER hitched prior to or after he was king - errr - president of twi.
Remember, the saying, "revelation may change when circumstances change."????
I'd say that people dying and getting raped during hitching was a major change in circumstance.
I repeat - the watchmen were asleep. For THAT they are wrong.
Regarding the argument that if they drove (see conjecture below*), we would be blaming twi for someone falling asleep at the wheel. Well that may or may not be true - It doesn't change the truth of the argument at hand. Please keep your red herring in your pocket.
*Depends - knowing twi they would have put an unreasonable timeframe on arrival that would have set up some unsafe conditions - but that's all conjecture. IF they had the wherewithal to use cars and safe drivers - perhaps they also would have taken some safety precautions - we'll never know. My point is that IF they were a different kind of ministry we might not all be here today, we just might be still singing from the blue song book........
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oldiesman
Wordwolf, your assessment here is pretty good, although I definitely wouldn't say that results (crimes) don't matter.
I am curious though, what would be your solution for the next time WOWs were sent out door to door?
(this situation seems exciting to me, allowing one to believe God while going door to door, a challenge, no doubt, in any neighborhood)
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doojable
:(
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oldiesman
Doojable, I just think they were following a different path. I think they looked at these incidents as the adversary ripping us off, and saying "we aren't stopping our training program because we do not admit defeat to the adversary." If they stopped hitchhiking, they would be admitting that the adversary won in that situation and stopped the corps from training individuals to abandon their fear of hitchhiking and confidence building ...something that the corps wasn't about. The corps was about pushing the envelope, as you well know.
As crazy as that logic and concept may sound today, I don't see any evil in that. It was part of doctrine of twi and we all bought into it at the time. Today I wouldn't do it. Today, I wouldn't go into the special forces of U.S., I wouldn't and couldn't hack it. But at 18 years old, it might have been an exciting adventure.
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WordWolf
WordWolf:
Oldiesman:Since your answer to that one is "the leader is completely blameless"
"go ahead and do that again anytime, that's fine",
then either the RESULTS don't matter (participants being raped or killed doesn't matter)
or the PEOPLE don't matter (anything making them unuseable is a mathematical consideration)
Either way, nearly every thinking person would disagree with you.
I can't think of ANYONE who would expect that program to continue,
and the leader to not get into LEGAL trouble.
===========================
doojable:
Oldiesman:
"I just think they were following a different path."
This path involved considering people raped and killed as "the cost of doing business."
Unusual path in the United States...
"I think they looked at these incidents as the adversary ripping us off, and saying "we aren't stopping our training program because we do not admit defeat to the adversary." If they stopped hitchhiking, they would be admitting that the adversary won in that situation and stopped the corps from training individuals to abandon their fear of hitchhiking and confidence building"
Or they could find a way for people to confront fear and increase confidence
WITHOUT making rape and murder an expected consequence for some.
But- if they did that, it would cost money. Hitchhiking was $0.00....
"As crazy as that logic and concept may sound today, I don't see any evil in that. It was part of doctrine of twi and we all bought into it at the time."
"As crazy as that logic and concept may sound today, I don't see any evil in that. It was part of doctrine of twi and we all bought into it at the time."
"As crazy as that logic and concept may sound today, I don't see any evil in that. It was part of doctrine of twi and we all bought into it at the time."
That was worth repeating.
There we have it.
We bought into it then. Therefore-although 20/20 hindsight makes it look crazy-
I DON'T SEE ANYTHING WRONG WITH IT.
We bought into it then.
Anything we bought into then was perfectly fine-never having ANY EVIL.
No matter how clear it looks now with more information, or maturity, or any other information
enlightens us. We did it then, we had good intentions == it was perfectly fine.
Had a problem with it THEN-you were a coward and lacked committment.
Have a problem with it NOW-you're "thinking evil".
Interesting personal philosophy.
Forgive us for not lining up to join your church.
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WordWolf
See,
there's big differences between at least 3 different things,
and someone-for reasons they keep avoiding-
keeps trying to say the 3 things are nearly identical,
whereas their differences often strike at the heart of the discussion.
For example:
There ARE orders where Christians make lifelong commitments to
go where they are told to go,
serve where they are told to serve,
and leave when they are told to leave.
Those are referred to by many names,
among them Holy Orders, the Priesthood, and so on.
Now, THOSE people don't just make ONE decision to enter
one program and now they're the property of the organization.
(No matter WHAT you were told.)
They receive training, and counseling.
They are questioned as to their commitment and reasoning.
They receive more training, and are REQUIRED to
meditate upon, and consider deeply, over and over,
the consequences of their decision.
It is FAR better for the organization to lose 90% of their
candidates than for them to place unstable, corrupt people
in all their offices.
Those that decide to go ahead swear their oaths,
and leave modern society, in a sense.
THEY'VE sworn oaths of poverty and chastity and stuff
I don't know about because I've never sworn their oaths.
Now,
THEY signed up for a lifetime serving their organization.
Clear.
Unambiguous.
Everything spelled out for YEARS long before they sign up.
THEIR programs don't get the participants raped or killed.
They actually CARE when someone gets hurt during the process.
Mark!
Can you give us something about what goes into THAT?
I'd bet my life it's more than
"pay us money"
"sign your name"
"write out your biography"
and then you're committed to 4 years of involuntary servitude
that you PAID FOR,
followed by a lifetime where you must obey our whims whenever
we declare them...
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George Aar
Re:
"(this situation seems exciting to me, allowing one to believe God while going door to door, a challenge, no doubt, in any neighborhood)"
HA! Oh, gawd, Phil, that's just rich. I had no idea that you STILL subscribed to the "law of believing" nonsense to this degree.
Maybe you could pull your head out every now and then and get a little sun? Really, it's gotta be unhealthy keeping it there ALL the time...
And another thought, geeze if it seems that exciting to you (Lord knows I"M getting aroused), why don't you just DO it?
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WordWolf
Here's how the "requirements" and "committment" process went for the average
corps person....
If you hadn't taken pfal, you were leaned on to take pfal.
If you had taken pfal but not the intermediate, you were leaned on to take pfal.
If you had taken the intermediate but not the advanced, you were leaned on to take the advanced.
If you completed the advanced, you were leaned on to go wow.
If you finished wow AND the advanced (either order), you were leaned on to go corps.
What if you didn't go corps?
Well, then the subject is dropped-today.
Tomorrow it will come up again.
And the next day.
In short, once you showed up, you were on either the fast track or the slow track
to going corps and thus, hitchhiking and going to LEAD.
The slow track:
you were never a viable candidate for the corps,
so you'll be sold as many classes as possible, and that you can be talked into.
The fast track:
you're the right age for the corps.
You will now be leaned on first to take all classes,
THEN to go corps.
To NOT go corps means you'll have to make the deliberate decision NOT to
go at some point, and steadfastly maintain it from then on,
and ignore anything said about you from then on.
The "screening process" for the corps was encapsulated in vpw's phrase
"You can stay as long as your money holds!"
After that, people were released from the corps only on 2 conditions:
A) they became a financial or legal liability
or
B) vpw got into a mood and kicked them out or their entire class out
For a program touted as highly as the way corps was,
it was ill-conceived,
ill-prepared,
and ill-executed,
and ill-screened.
Diligence and consideration SHOULD have been part of each step.
The only things we saw "diligence" in (mostly) were
"is your money on time?" and "I read your 'birth to the corps' paper."
So, you were fairly well swept along by the process unless you made a deliberate
effort to stop. Otherwise, you'd be talked into the next step and the next,
eventually ending up in the corps unless you had a compelling reason NOT
to be there.
That's the OPPOSITE of how MOST groups train and select leaders,
and find candidates for what is supposedly an ELITE program.
And what if you changed your mind?
doojable:
rhino (ex-corps) on the "screening process":Link to comment
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