When I was a kid it was common practice for people to hitchhike. We even had hitchhiking "races" on Friday nights. A friend of mine who was headed for L.A. stuck his thumb out in Cleveland, Ohio And the first guy to pick him up was headed for,you guessed it,L.A. That's about it for my warm and fuzzy memories; now for some war stories. I got picked up one Friday evening after cashing my check at a nearby tavern. The driver made small talk that was obviously aimed at finding out if I had any cash. I picked up on this pretty quickly and ask to be let out. Instead of letting me out he sped up. Fortunately a car pulled out in front of us and when he screeched to a halt I bailed. As I walked away there was no doubt in my mind what he was up to. Another time I was picked up late at night by a guy had plans that were a good deal more frightening. I noticed he had a tire iron on the floor and wasted no time in picking it up and letting him know what was about to happen if he didn't pull over. Another time as I was climbing into a car, the driver heard screaming brakes and knowing he was about to be rear ended,slammed on the accelerater. He drug me ,hanging on for dear life, for about 100 feet. I was shaken and my boots were ruined but I was otherwise ok. These were not times when twi had directed me to hitch . Kind of makes you wonder though if I had seen things like this myself did noone at HQ level realize the dangers? A young couple to whom I have family ties were ordered to hitch to LEAD or something similar with an infant in tow! I like to think it all taught me more about GOD's grace than foolhardiness but that may just be the optimist in me.
Yeah, to be fair, Donnie Fugit, who HAD to have hitched a lot as a hippie, told a group of us that he was about to pick up a hitcher ('79-'82) when God audibly said "NO!" so he just drove away fast.
I hitched a lot between 1970 and 1976 when I got in TWI. I got a lot of really good rides, some of the 1000 mile variety. I was never corps so I didn't go on LEAD, but I hitched long distance a few times while in TWI without incident.
... but I hitched long distance a few times while in TWI without incident.
And I'm glad that your times were "without incident"... truly I am... BUT that doesn't mean that hitching isn't dangerous because IT IS... and I guaran-dam-tee you that those in authority knew it was as well...
It falls into the category of either tempting God (i.e. "let's see if everyone can believe to have safe trips") or they were too dang cheap to pay for transportation and they flat out didn't care if folks lives were endangered.
Either way, it sucks and it was wrong... it and a number of other things that were asked/expected of us at the time that had absolutely NOTHING to do with "moving God's Word over the world"...
It was arrogance and heartlessness on every plane of existence you can name...
Tom: Did you ever hitchhike? Did anything ever happen to you? John Hendricks prayed for a Winnebago and a beer when he hitched and GOT IT! In 1979 I hitched from Columbia, MO to Fresno, CA. After 20 hours of hitching I found myself in Amarillo, TX. At 9AM I prayed; I said to God that if it was really HE who was getting rides for me then He could get me a ride all the way to Fresno just as easy as He could get me a ride 10 miles down the road, so I asked for a ride all the way there. One hour later I got it. 2 guys from Kansas had business in both LA and San Francisco. Originally they were going to LA first, which would have had them drop me off in death valley (Barstow) but they picked up other hitchhikers who were going to LA who annoyed the hell out of them, so they dropped those people off in Barstow and went through Fresno on their way to SF dropping me off 1 block from where I was going.
Remember that hitchhiking was a requirement only for corps. Spiritual leaders who were being trained to be tough minded. I'll bet there were more of them who objected to rock climbing than hitchhiking.
Tom: Did you ever hitchhike? Did anything ever happen to you?
Nope, I was fortunate... but that doesn't discount that it was dangerous, unnecessary and stupid for them to have required it... nor does it change the fact that they were either ignorant or just didn't care.
Remember that hitchhiking was a requirement only for corps. Spiritual leaders who were being trained to be tough minded. I'll bet there were more of them who objected to rock climbing than hitchhiking.
Same response as above...
Why does it appear that you feel the (what seems like) absolute need to cover for them? ...or to shield them from blame?
They purposely made people do dangerous and foolish things... that had NOTHING to do with moving God's Word over the world...
Sometimes I think they just sat around in a circle, passing the jug, saying things like "hey! let's see if we can get them to do this!"
Today I think hitching is dangerous, but back then I hitched all over the country way before TWI. So did Evan, George, and probably several other GSers. By the way, the first recollection I posted was a TWI deal. I wasn't "ordered" to drive but c'mon. Emporia to someplace? That was while in TWI.
So NO, I don't think hitchhiking was "tempting God". Some of you are just wusses.
So... Mr Whatever, look at YOUR WORDS, look at the ones that I put in bold... On the one hand YOU say "Today I think hitching is dangerous"... then YOU say "I don't think hitchhiking was 'tempting God'"
Now, Mr Whatever... it's my contention that if someone sends you out to do something dangerous, and tells you to believe God for a safe trip... that's tempting God ...does your logic work differently Mr Whatever?
Hitching has always been dangerous (whether you thought it was or not)... that's why your Mother told you not to do it and worried about you whenever you did...
Except I have him on tape volunteering his opinion on the subject.
It's in the "Heart of the Way Corps" series.
7 tapes-he's the speaker on 2 of them.
He brought up objections to hitchhiking in the program.
He stressed that the hitchhiking is mandatory.
Then he addressed concerns that had already been brought to his
attention-he himself mentions that people had said that hitchhikers
could be raped. (He specifies rape.)
He blows it off completely-saying that they could be raped down in
the valley near the program site (Green Valley? I'd need to check
for the name he gave), and used that as an excuse to blow off
concerns that they were being exposed to unacceptable risk.
When I have time, I'll fetch out the tape and type out his exact
words.
As for LEAD, I'll accept that mandatory rock-climbing is a good
idea right after ALL the top ministry people go thru the program.
Anyone want to try to convince me that vpw himself climbed the
rocks and hitchhiked? How about Howard Allen?
Wusses?? WUSSES?? OMG John one of our posters here was abducted and raped repeatedly before she got away ...WHILE hitch hiking to lead.
I know of at least one corpes person who freaking DIED while hitchhiking to lead.
and those are just incidences that I have heard about...no doubt there were others :(
Good lord almighty ....what an ignorant thing to say about the people who suffered so grievously for following twi orders.
And I'm glad that your times were "without incident"... truly I am... BUT that doesn't mean that hitching isn't dangerous because IT IS... and I guaran-dam-tee you that those in authority knew it was as well...
It falls into the category of either tempting God (i.e. "let's see if everyone can believe to have safe trips") or they were too dang cheap to pay for transportation and they flat out didn't care if folks lives were endangered.
Either way, it sucks and it was wrong... it and a number of other things that were asked/expected of us at the time that had absolutely NOTHING to do with "moving God's Word over the world"...
It was arrogance and heartlessness on every plane of existence you can name...
Did I mention it's also ILLEGAL? Didn't twi teach us somewhere that we are supposed to try to follow the laws of society? There was scriptural reference given I'm sure.
Did I mention it's also ILLEGAL? Didn't twi teach us somewhere that we are supposed to try to follow the laws of society? There was scriptural reference given I'm sure.
Probably the obvious one.
I Peter 2:13.
12Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
13Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
As for LEAD, I'll accept that mandatory rock-climbing is a good idea right after ALL the top ministry people go thru the program.
On LEAD there were two larger packs per twig as I recall, I got one and a smaller guy had the other. He was having a lot of trouble on the way up, and the main LEAD guy was really verbally laying into him. It seems maybe sharing the load would have been a better solution (maybe they ended up doing some of that) ... who knows what problems he was really having ... coulda been serious.
Then we had two days heavy snow on the way up, they thought of bringing us back down ... wish my sorel boots were allowed, my wet feet left me with mild frostbite, but the feeling in my toes slowly came back after a month or so. My expert TC guy said they were OK since the toes weren't black. I think I had a little confidence in him since he had been military maybe (10th corpse?) ...
On one day hike I remember diverting off with Mario B for a little bit (not sure why he was in charge then since he shoulda been in residence with the other 9th corps), and he was talking a little of some troubles in the program .. I forget details. Later asking Diane ? (who had been on LEAD staff interim year) she said he shouldn't have been talking about that. This is the kind of covering that went on a lot and was part of unofficial policy I think.
I thought Howard Allen did go down to do some of the LEAD thing ... he thankfully changed the policy about no bathing while on LEAD. Man we really stunk when we were hitching home. After that I think everyone got cleaned up before hitting the road home.
I'm sure alot of folks before twi, like in the seventies when times were a little safer, may of not had cars to take them where they needed to go. AND that was THEIR choice to hitch rides all over the country.
But when it comes to us who had cars and were perfectly capeable of driving to our destinations, why in the h*ll would they MAKE us do such a fool hardily act and risk our own lives?
To me hitchhiking are for those who don't have transportation and the money to get it. (still not a smart way to travel. IMO)
How many of you that went LEAD and the Corps. had vehicles?
Where is it illegal? Back when I hitched the cops may have forced you to stay at the bottom of the entrance ramp, but they let you hitch. Just today I saw 2 hitchhikers at the bottom of an entrance ramp.
I'm constantly amazed at to what extreme some of you seem driven to always tie TWI things into a conspiracy theory. Lots of people hitched as long as there have been cars. Certainly during VPs early years.
quote: On the one hand YOU say "Today I think hitching is dangerous"... then YOU say "I don't think hitchhiking was 'tempting God'"
Yes, I did say both those things. Same thing about leaving keys in the car. Once this was a common practice. Today, it would be foolish. Things like that are always changing. My mother never told me not to hitch. She may have worried a bit, but my older brother (11yrs older) showed me the ropes when I was 16. We spent that summer (1970) hitching all over the west: Yellowstone, Zion, and Glacier National Parks, plus a week in San Francisco. Coolest summer vacation I ever had.
Actually, for the most part, it IS illegal to hitchhike on most interstates, interstate highways and, especially when there are signs prohibiting pedestrians.
I know we have all seen those signs at least a few times in our lives.
The fact of the matter is, it IS and WAS dangerous to hitchhike. People are killed, women are raped, bad things happen to good people. Just because you didn't have a bad experience do not dismiss the entire argument that it's dangerous.
Another fact is that news travels much quicker in our "information age" than it did back in the day. ;) Just because you didn't hear about these horrible things do not dismiss the entire argument that it's dangerous and that bad things didn't happen.
I now think of that as "OM Syndrome". I didn't experience it, therefore you are lying.
You thought it was a perfectly reasonable requirement. Fine. Others don't. They are just as entitled to their opinion as you are to yours. Why can't we just agree to disagree on here more often? WHY must everything be so black & white? so I'm right. You're wrong.?
There was absolutely no reason to take such dangerous risks like that, especially for those who had their own transportation and/or the money to afford to get there safely and on time. At least LEAD is somewhat supervised. ANYTHING could happen on the road where nobody knows where you are, who you're riding with, what kind of vehicle you're in and with no cell phone to call for help if you needed to.
Geeze, oh, Pete! This is getting really old! You said your perspective. People agree or disagree. Why must we continue to attack each other? We all have our own story we're living. We have our own perspectives on life. Neither one negates the other.
Why can't we just agree to disagree on here more often? WHY must everything be so black & white? so I'm right. You're wrong.?
Evil thoughts and ways are intricately part of your thoughts and emotions which is why that is all you see.
... but if you wanted to be anything OTHER than a *bump on the log spirituall*'it was absolutely necessary.
If you wanted to please God, you WERE required to go into the corpes...there was no other alternative if you loved God.
This is your own personal bias. Ooodles of folks did fine without going corps and were thought of as God's best. You are off the wall ... manufacturing a supposed reality that didn't exist except in your own mind and perhaps some others.
Ooops I shouldn't think that was a lie should I. :o
When I went LEAD, I didn't want to hitchhike. I knew I would have to (In my last year of in-rez) - but I hated the idea - one COULD say that I knew the job was dangerous when I took it......
I didn't have to hitch to Lightbearers - either time. There was a person with a car both times. I don't remember what was done for gas money - I think there was a small amount given that would have to be enough - but I don't seem to remember much more than that.
I did hitch willingly on a few occasions - three to be exact. The first time was when I went to Advanced class '79. I got a ride home though. The second and third times were to get to corps week and the ROA - again I got a ride home.
I don't remember any literature stating for a fact that hitching was a requirement in the Corps. In fact, I'm not so sure that LEAD was added to the Corps training as a must until the after the tenth corps had their first year in rez.
Then there was the "not mandantory" Rodeo school....
No one HAD to do it. You were certainly given major kudos FOR doing it - heck for surviving! If you came back injured - wow! you were holier-than-I. I just knew that I wasn't that "spiritual."
Why did we do this dangerous stuff? Because we were young. Because we believed that God went with us. Because we were required to. Because our "spiritual temperature" was taken with our performance.
Ask yourself this - Where did Jesus ever teach these "truths?" Wasn't this habit of doing dangerous stuff just another Gospel alongside the truth?
And yes, we WERE taught not to tempt God - but what if you were TOLD BY A MAN OF GOD to do something dangerous? Oh well! Now all bets were off - this was like some guarantee that God would honor this MOG's directive. So now God wasn't sovereign, Jesus wasn't the Lord of all - the MOG was and God and all his heavenly host had to dance to the MOG's tune??????
Tell me - what is wrong with this picture?
This is no conspiracy theory. This is an observation of how we learned to do stuff that God never mandated. (Notice that there was never any change to that policy - so are we to assume that God NEVER told someone, "Don't make them hitch this time."??? Even if He did - do you think anyone - ANYONE would have suggested it? Doesn't this smack of taking the word of men over the Word of God? Be honest now...)
I don't believe that TWI is the only group that "replaces" God and Jesus with the doctirnes of men - just that twi was the group that most of us had the experience with.
Personal bias??? Manufacturing a supposed reality??? no, actually this information was what twi leaders, the ones who told me that they spoke for God, the ones who told me that God required that I obey, told repeatedly and implicitly.
It was the great L Craig Martindale himself THE spiritual leader of GOD`S ministry that taught what I related word for freaking WORD at roa 1983 at the corpes promo.
He further more stated very snottily at the same teaching that he wouldn`t even hang out with anybody who wasn`t corpes because they weren`t committed enough to God.
Geeze I couldn`t make this crap up NOBODY is that imaginative
My sincerest apologies for the stark reality of our situations interfering with your fantasy of what you WISH twi had been oldies.
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rascal
Rhino posted on the roa thread about driving while exhausted putting himself, his passenger and other drivers at serious risk in order to get to roa (wish I knew how to cut and cross post) Here's th
outandabout
If we're not supposed to use our "five senses", why did God give them to us?
waysider
When I was a kid it was common practice for people to hitchhike. We even had hitchhiking "races" on Friday nights. A friend of mine who was headed for L.A. stuck his thumb out in Cleveland, Ohio And the first guy to pick him up was headed for,you guessed it,L.A. That's about it for my warm and fuzzy memories; now for some war stories. I got picked up one Friday evening after cashing my check at a nearby tavern. The driver made small talk that was obviously aimed at finding out if I had any cash. I picked up on this pretty quickly and ask to be let out. Instead of letting me out he sped up. Fortunately a car pulled out in front of us and when he screeched to a halt I bailed. As I walked away there was no doubt in my mind what he was up to. Another time I was picked up late at night by a guy had plans that were a good deal more frightening. I noticed he had a tire iron on the floor and wasted no time in picking it up and letting him know what was about to happen if he didn't pull over. Another time as I was climbing into a car, the driver heard screaming brakes and knowing he was about to be rear ended,slammed on the accelerater. He drug me ,hanging on for dear life, for about 100 feet. I was shaken and my boots were ruined but I was otherwise ok. These were not times when twi had directed me to hitch . Kind of makes you wonder though if I had seen things like this myself did noone at HQ level realize the dangers? A young couple to whom I have family ties were ordered to hitch to LEAD or something similar with an infant in tow! I like to think it all taught me more about GOD's grace than foolhardiness but that may just be the optimist in me.
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johniam
Yeah, to be fair, Donnie Fugit, who HAD to have hitched a lot as a hippie, told a group of us that he was about to pick up a hitcher ('79-'82) when God audibly said "NO!" so he just drove away fast.
I hitched a lot between 1970 and 1976 when I got in TWI. I got a lot of really good rides, some of the 1000 mile variety. I was never corps so I didn't go on LEAD, but I hitched long distance a few times while in TWI without incident.
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Tom Strange
And I'm glad that your times were "without incident"... truly I am... BUT that doesn't mean that hitching isn't dangerous because IT IS... and I guaran-dam-tee you that those in authority knew it was as well...
It falls into the category of either tempting God (i.e. "let's see if everyone can believe to have safe trips") or they were too dang cheap to pay for transportation and they flat out didn't care if folks lives were endangered.
Either way, it sucks and it was wrong... it and a number of other things that were asked/expected of us at the time that had absolutely NOTHING to do with "moving God's Word over the world"...
It was arrogance and heartlessness on every plane of existence you can name...
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johniam
Tom: Did you ever hitchhike? Did anything ever happen to you? John Hendricks prayed for a Winnebago and a beer when he hitched and GOT IT! In 1979 I hitched from Columbia, MO to Fresno, CA. After 20 hours of hitching I found myself in Amarillo, TX. At 9AM I prayed; I said to God that if it was really HE who was getting rides for me then He could get me a ride all the way to Fresno just as easy as He could get me a ride 10 miles down the road, so I asked for a ride all the way there. One hour later I got it. 2 guys from Kansas had business in both LA and San Francisco. Originally they were going to LA first, which would have had them drop me off in death valley (Barstow) but they picked up other hitchhikers who were going to LA who annoyed the hell out of them, so they dropped those people off in Barstow and went through Fresno on their way to SF dropping me off 1 block from where I was going.
Remember that hitchhiking was a requirement only for corps. Spiritual leaders who were being trained to be tough minded. I'll bet there were more of them who objected to rock climbing than hitchhiking.
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Tom Strange
Nope, I was fortunate... but that doesn't discount that it was dangerous, unnecessary and stupid for them to have required it... nor does it change the fact that they were either ignorant or just didn't care.
Same response as above...
Why does it appear that you feel the (what seems like) absolute need to cover for them? ...or to shield them from blame?
They purposely made people do dangerous and foolish things... that had NOTHING to do with moving God's Word over the world...
Sometimes I think they just sat around in a circle, passing the jug, saying things like "hey! let's see if we can get them to do this!"
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johniam
Yeah, whatever.
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Tom Strange
Okay Mr Whatever...
So... Mr Whatever, look at YOUR WORDS, look at the ones that I put in bold... On the one hand YOU say "Today I think hitching is dangerous"... then YOU say "I don't think hitchhiking was 'tempting God'"
Now, Mr Whatever... it's my contention that if someone sends you out to do something dangerous, and tells you to believe God for a safe trip... that's tempting God ...does your logic work differently Mr Whatever?
Hitching has always been dangerous (whether you thought it was or not)... that's why your Mother told you not to do it and worried about you whenever you did...
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WordWolf
vpw himself was well aware it was dangerous.
He knew this and blew it off.
Don't believe me, I'm sure.
I'm not sure I'd believe me either.
Except I have him on tape volunteering his opinion on the subject.
It's in the "Heart of the Way Corps" series.
7 tapes-he's the speaker on 2 of them.
He brought up objections to hitchhiking in the program.
He stressed that the hitchhiking is mandatory.
Then he addressed concerns that had already been brought to his
attention-he himself mentions that people had said that hitchhikers
could be raped. (He specifies rape.)
He blows it off completely-saying that they could be raped down in
the valley near the program site (Green Valley? I'd need to check
for the name he gave), and used that as an excuse to blow off
concerns that they were being exposed to unacceptable risk.
When I have time, I'll fetch out the tape and type out his exact
words.
As for LEAD, I'll accept that mandatory rock-climbing is a good
idea right after ALL the top ministry people go thru the program.
Anyone want to try to convince me that vpw himself climbed the
rocks and hitchhiked? How about Howard Allen?
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waysider
Did I mention it's also ILLEGAL? Didn't twi teach us somewhere that we are supposed to try to follow the laws of society? There was scriptural reference given I'm sure.
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WordWolf
Probably the obvious one.
I Peter 2:13.
12Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
13Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
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rhino
On LEAD there were two larger packs per twig as I recall, I got one and a smaller guy had the other. He was having a lot of trouble on the way up, and the main LEAD guy was really verbally laying into him. It seems maybe sharing the load would have been a better solution (maybe they ended up doing some of that) ... who knows what problems he was really having ... coulda been serious.
Then we had two days heavy snow on the way up, they thought of bringing us back down ... wish my sorel boots were allowed, my wet feet left me with mild frostbite, but the feeling in my toes slowly came back after a month or so. My expert TC guy said they were OK since the toes weren't black. I think I had a little confidence in him since he had been military maybe (10th corpse?) ...
On one day hike I remember diverting off with Mario B for a little bit (not sure why he was in charge then since he shoulda been in residence with the other 9th corps), and he was talking a little of some troubles in the program .. I forget details. Later asking Diane ? (who had been on LEAD staff interim year) she said he shouldn't have been talking about that. This is the kind of covering that went on a lot and was part of unofficial policy I think.
I thought Howard Allen did go down to do some of the LEAD thing ... he thankfully changed the policy about no bathing while on LEAD. Man we really stunk when we were hitching home. After that I think everyone got cleaned up before hitting the road home.
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Sunnyfla
Johniam,
I'm sure alot of folks before twi, like in the seventies when times were a little safer, may of not had cars to take them where they needed to go. AND that was THEIR choice to hitch rides all over the country.
But when it comes to us who had cars and were perfectly capeable of driving to our destinations, why in the h*ll would they MAKE us do such a fool hardily act and risk our own lives?
To me hitchhiking are for those who don't have transportation and the money to get it. (still not a smart way to travel. IMO)
How many of you that went LEAD and the Corps. had vehicles?
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johniam
Where is it illegal? Back when I hitched the cops may have forced you to stay at the bottom of the entrance ramp, but they let you hitch. Just today I saw 2 hitchhikers at the bottom of an entrance ramp.
I'm constantly amazed at to what extreme some of you seem driven to always tie TWI things into a conspiracy theory. Lots of people hitched as long as there have been cars. Certainly during VPs early years.
quote: On the one hand YOU say "Today I think hitching is dangerous"... then YOU say "I don't think hitchhiking was 'tempting God'"
Yes, I did say both those things. Same thing about leaving keys in the car. Once this was a common practice. Today, it would be foolish. Things like that are always changing. My mother never told me not to hitch. She may have worried a bit, but my older brother (11yrs older) showed me the ropes when I was 16. We spent that summer (1970) hitching all over the west: Yellowstone, Zion, and Glacier National Parks, plus a week in San Francisco. Coolest summer vacation I ever had.
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Belle
Hitchhiker Laws
Actually, for the most part, it IS illegal to hitchhike on most interstates, interstate highways and, especially when there are signs prohibiting pedestrians.
I know we have all seen those signs at least a few times in our lives.
The fact of the matter is, it IS and WAS dangerous to hitchhike. People are killed, women are raped, bad things happen to good people. Just because you didn't have a bad experience do not dismiss the entire argument that it's dangerous.
Another fact is that news travels much quicker in our "information age" than it did back in the day. ;) Just because you didn't hear about these horrible things do not dismiss the entire argument that it's dangerous and that bad things didn't happen.
I now think of that as "OM Syndrome". I didn't experience it, therefore you are lying.
You thought it was a perfectly reasonable requirement. Fine. Others don't. They are just as entitled to their opinion as you are to yours. Why can't we just agree to disagree on here more often? WHY must everything be so black & white? so I'm right. You're wrong.?
There was absolutely no reason to take such dangerous risks like that, especially for those who had their own transportation and/or the money to afford to get there safely and on time. At least LEAD is somewhat supervised. ANYTHING could happen on the road where nobody knows where you are, who you're riding with, what kind of vehicle you're in and with no cell phone to call for help if you needed to.
Geeze, oh, Pete! This is getting really old! You said your perspective. People agree or disagree. Why must we continue to attack each other? We all have our own story we're living. We have our own perspectives on life. Neither one negates the other.
Why can't we just agree to disagree on here more often? WHY must everything be so black & white? so I'm right. You're wrong.?
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oldiesman
Folks who hitchhiked, freely availed themselves to hitchhike, dangerous or not.
TWI didn't make people hitchhike. TWI didn't force people to go corps.
Good lawd, I am so vehemenently opposed to VMP.
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rascal
Nobody was forced, but if you wanted to be anything OTHER than a *bump on the log spirituall*'it was absolutely necessary.
If you wanted to please God, you WERE required to go into the corpes...there was no other alternative if you loved God.
Hitch hikeing was a requirement in order to stay in the corpes.
and *I* am vehemently opposed to the continual attempts at whitewashing of the evil twi`s sepulcher
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oldiesman
Evil thoughts and ways are intricately part of your thoughts and emotions which is why that is all you see.
This is your own personal bias. Ooodles of folks did fine without going corps and were thought of as God's best. You are off the wall ... manufacturing a supposed reality that didn't exist except in your own mind and perhaps some others.
Ooops I shouldn't think that was a lie should I. :o
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doojable
OM,
When I went LEAD, I didn't want to hitchhike. I knew I would have to (In my last year of in-rez) - but I hated the idea - one COULD say that I knew the job was dangerous when I took it......
I didn't have to hitch to Lightbearers - either time. There was a person with a car both times. I don't remember what was done for gas money - I think there was a small amount given that would have to be enough - but I don't seem to remember much more than that.
I did hitch willingly on a few occasions - three to be exact. The first time was when I went to Advanced class '79. I got a ride home though. The second and third times were to get to corps week and the ROA - again I got a ride home.
I don't remember any literature stating for a fact that hitching was a requirement in the Corps. In fact, I'm not so sure that LEAD was added to the Corps training as a must until the after the tenth corps had their first year in rez.
Then there was the "not mandantory" Rodeo school....
No one HAD to do it. You were certainly given major kudos FOR doing it - heck for surviving! If you came back injured - wow! you were holier-than-I. I just knew that I wasn't that "spiritual."
Why did we do this dangerous stuff? Because we were young. Because we believed that God went with us. Because we were required to. Because our "spiritual temperature" was taken with our performance.
Ask yourself this - Where did Jesus ever teach these "truths?" Wasn't this habit of doing dangerous stuff just another Gospel alongside the truth?
And yes, we WERE taught not to tempt God - but what if you were TOLD BY A MAN OF GOD to do something dangerous? Oh well! Now all bets were off - this was like some guarantee that God would honor this MOG's directive. So now God wasn't sovereign, Jesus wasn't the Lord of all - the MOG was and God and all his heavenly host had to dance to the MOG's tune??????
Tell me - what is wrong with this picture?
This is no conspiracy theory. This is an observation of how we learned to do stuff that God never mandated. (Notice that there was never any change to that policy - so are we to assume that God NEVER told someone, "Don't make them hitch this time."??? Even if He did - do you think anyone - ANYONE would have suggested it? Doesn't this smack of taking the word of men over the Word of God? Be honest now...)
I don't believe that TWI is the only group that "replaces" God and Jesus with the doctirnes of men - just that twi was the group that most of us had the experience with.
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WordWolf
The corps were REQUIRED to hitchhike.
Even after vpw was aware that women were raped.
Even after people DIED.
vpw HIMSELF made people hitchhike.
If you hadn't taken pfal, you were leaned on to take pfal.If you had taken pfal but not the intermediate, you were leaned on to take pfal.
If you had taken the intermediate but not the advanced, you were leaned on to take the advanced.
If you completed the advanced, you were leaned on to go wow.
If you finished wow AND the advanced (either order), you were leaned on to go corps.
What if you didn't go corps?
Well, then the subject is dropped-today.
Tomorrow it will come up again.
And the next day.
Some people were treated badly because they refused.
Some were left alone after.
Oldiesman refuses to admit some were treated badly because they refused.
Did he NEVER see it, or was this "selective vision"?
It happened either way-the only difference is in one case, OM was never around
when it happened, and in other cases, he went out of his way to block it out of
his mind when it happened right in front of his face.
If that's true, then OM, in his own way, was just as much a victim as others-
since his psyche was twisted into shapes it should not have taken,
all as a coping mechanism to deal with evil men doing evil things.
Of course, if that's true, he was a victim THEN, but now has chosen to
perpetuate the cycle of abuse by inflicting inappropriate coping mechanisms
on others.
Then again,
he just may have missed it all, and is using a different set of coping mechanisms
to block CURRENT information ONLY.
I don't know what VMP is, but I'm vehemently opposed to categorical whitewashing
and excusing of vpw for what he did-and had others do.
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Sunnyfla
OM.
We were told to pack our bags if we had a problem
Hitchhiking!
Therefore, also being M&A in the process of leaving. So if that isn't cruel punishment for NOT
wanting to put yourself into danger and doing what is expected of you, then your eyes are REALLY clouded over
of the cruelty of twi.
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WordWolf
No,
the concealment of evil thoughts and evil ways is intricately tied into your own
defense mechanisms for that which you yourself saw and did,
therefore you will NEVER see it because you work so hard at NOT seeing it.
This is your own personal bias.
Which means so much to the people who were leaned on into GOING corps....Some of them went in, some of them endured the squeeze.
Even lcm had this pulled on him!
(He documented it HIMSELF!)
That rascal manufactured anything is DEFINITELY a lie.
It's not a mistake due to misinformation-
it was a deliberate attempt to change the subject by ADDING misinformation.
Therefore, an INTENTIONAL lie.
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rascal
Personal bias??? Manufacturing a supposed reality??? no, actually this information was what twi leaders, the ones who told me that they spoke for God, the ones who told me that God required that I obey, told repeatedly and implicitly.
It was the great L Craig Martindale himself THE spiritual leader of GOD`S ministry that taught what I related word for freaking WORD at roa 1983 at the corpes promo.
He further more stated very snottily at the same teaching that he wouldn`t even hang out with anybody who wasn`t corpes because they weren`t committed enough to God.
Geeze I couldn`t make this crap up NOBODY is that imaginative
My sincerest apologies for the stark reality of our situations interfering with your fantasy of what you WISH twi had been oldies.
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WordWolf
Correct.
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oldiesman
VMP is Victim Mentality Propaganda, a mindset that you and some others engage in repeatedly, against all that is twi.
Portray everyone as helpless victims of Wierwille and twi. That's it, in a nutshell.
Wordwolf, because of your corrupt and hateful thinking of all that is twi, your analysis is biased, and your hatred continues to corrupt you.
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