"criminal negligence leading to foolhardy behaviour as MANDATED by twi"
into "let's derail and discuss the LEAD accident,
I'll go along for now.
=================
Satori:
"The TWI management philosophy is: "deprivation + believing = abundance." The top leadership applies this philosophy (a.k.a., magic formula) to everyone but themselves.
By hand-picking their high-maintenance Corps people (by their own cold, cynical reckoning) for LEAD Group 104 (and whose bone-headed, foolish idea was it? Lynn's? Martindale's? - whatever, they had to approve it), TWI management over-burdened the competent but small staff at Tinney.
Management's expectation, as usual, was they would be well-served by the magical "believing" of the staff, or if not, they could blame the staff for its failure to "believe" (practice effective magic). No believing (magic) required on their own part - pretty convenient.
For crying out loud, the LEAD program was in the wilderness! That was the idea for creating a "challenge." Screw-ups anywhere are dangerous enough, but even minor accidents in the wilderness can become deadly.
So dumbass TWI leadership sends this (supposedly) issue-prone "losers" group - all together. To a virtual survival camp?? And you ask the bare-bones staff, in one session, to keep them all safe, enable them to climb vertical rock walls, AND do your vetting work for you - the work that should have been done on the field, one-on-one, or in residence?
If TWI leaders couldn't "believe" to get the vetting done in a safer, controlled environment, what made them think LEAD would be such a nifty idea? They were f-ing STUPID, that's what. They were also thoughtless, or callous, or even cold-blooded, mercenary bastards, where people's lives were concerned. They made a show of "loving" people, but the love-dove stuff went down the crapper when personal priorities or ministry goals were at stake.
What TWI was hoping to do with LEAD 104 was save time, letting the LEAD program shake you all loose as efficiently as possible.
I'll be honest here. I don't think Rochelle was ever meant for the Corps program, neither for what it was supposed to be (and never was), and especially, not for what it was - from the 6th Corps(approximately) on. I believe she was looking for a place to belong, where her talents and intelligence could be put to the best possible purpose, and hoped the Corps would provide it - not just a "place," but a family.
Had TWI been a truly Christian group, and not the fraud it quickly became as Wierwille realized his ambitions, she might have found it, and herself. To the Way Corps program, as it was, she was a throw-away, along with so many others, caught in the net but to be tossed out, unwanted."
====================
Satori again:
"oldiesman,
The driver was responsible for the accident. Yes. Nobody would question that, so your real point is that you are missing the point.
Who was the driver's employer? What was the driver doing while driving? Why?
Specifically, what were the circumstances leading to a distracted, young man reading an evaluation form, while operating a fast-moving truck, towing a trailer, with a load of people in the back on a windy, back-country highway. No red flags for you, huh? Blame stops with the driver? How convenient for the Board of Trustees, who consistently appointed -what shall we call them? okay - dumbasses, to run the Corps, and consequently to make asinine decisions like the one that led to (remedial) LEAD group 104, requiring extended evaluations for which there was INSUFFICIENT TIME to complete.
I'm not saying Way management wanted the accident to happen. They were just too stupid and thoughtless, oh, and NEGLIGENT!! to consider the danger of over-burdening the LEAD staff, when it was already under so many other constraints, real and administrative.
Oh, "by the way." Why is it swept under the rug? Because NEGLIGENCE = LIABILITY, that's why."
===================
waterbuffalo:
"..right, satori001, and it wasn't as if twi didn't have the $$ to enlarge the staff or to train them more thoroughly..."
==================
Georgio Jessio:
"I've posted either here or on Waydale about the incompetence that left my mother with a forever broken back. She's never recovered and was chastised because she wasn't "walking in the spirit". She walked right off of a mountain side and took a violent fall because a LEADer told her, a middle aged woman from The Bronx, to go back to camp to retrieve something, take a left at the oak tree and a right at the maple tree. She tried to tell them that she didn't know the difference between trees an she was reproved for not remembering what she had been taught. She obediently went , misunderstood the difference between trees and took a terrible fall.
She came home early from LEAD and I wasn't told that she had returned or that she had been in an accident. We had "sub parents": Fellow corps that kept an eye on the kids while Family Corps parents went lead. They knew she was back and didn't tell me. They continued to act as my parents while my mother was being kept away from me. I heard thru the grapevine that she was back and had gotten hurt because "her believing wasn't there". I demended to see her and get some info and finally was allowed to see her days later. I couldn't sleep knowing my mother was hurt, I wasn't allowed to see her or have any info. It was torture.
Many were talking about it in front of me, making my mother look bad without regard to my feelings. She wasn't allowed to go to a doctor until she reached a level of pain that was turned around on her as a lack of believing.
It was all her fault. She was never treated and now her bones are fused incorrectly.
Oldies man: It is neglegent and unreasonable to require people to hitch hike across the country."
================
Satori:
"oldiesman, when you put employees under the pressure of time constraints, they may have to cut corners to deliver results on time. If you're talking about the BRC offices at Headquarters, where somebody might stumble over a stapler, that's one thing. But when you're talking about Way Builders, or LEAD, or any operation where safety is a critical consideration, then management MUST stress safety above all else.
What did TWI stress? "Believing," in other words, magic. And of course, results. Safety was only a factor of your believing. If you "believed" (practiced amateur magic), God would cover (because he loves amateur magicians).
WHAT is TWI renowned for saying any time a "believer" (amateur magician) gets sick or hurt. It's their BELIEVING, right oldiesman? They believed for disease or injury or death, just like old, dead of cancer Victor P. Wierwille, uh, or was that an attack-of-the-Adversary? - stay tuned for the "present truth" to be revealed, depending on what time it is.
You can say it's impossible for TWI management to take oversight to enforce safety standards and measures adequate for preventing every accident. But they did enforce those measures, selectively. You can bet Vic's bus and airplane were well inspected, and that sufficient TIME was allowed to do the job right.
But LEAD placed a big priority on the schedule. It was a matter of honor and pride (and believing, which is magic) to arrive at LEAD, and back, on TIME. And LEAD staff was a big part of that, getting the (spiritual) hitchhikers back on the road on time. Even if it meant reading evaluation forms, driving 50 mph in strong crosswinds with a trailer and a truck load of people. Is it stupid to do that? No, not if you're "believing" is there. You're covered, bro. You can do anything with believing (magic), and do it safely, even if it looks a little dangerous.
Why didn't HCW say, "Stop this thing, I'm not proceeding with the eval while you're driving?" Because he would have been questioning the driver's believing, that's why, and his own would be on the line. After all, he was part of LEAD 104, the losers' group. He would be giving in to fear (FALSE EVIDENCE APPEARING REAL), and that would be putting everyone at risk of losing their (magical) hedge of protection, giving the Adversary an opportunity to steal, kill and destroy.
So HCW didn't confess any negatives, like "slow this goddam truck down now, dammit." That would have been negative. Why? Because that's what TWI taught, and not only taught, but enforced with systematic intimidation. Being assigned to LEAD-for-Losers group 104 was part of TWI's ugly campaign of intimidation against its own followers, especially Corps (who in turn, turned it upon others). It just stinks of Martindale, to tell you the truth, it reeks of the stain and stench of "spiritual" humiliation, L. Craig Martindale's modus operandi.
If it had come down from TWI management that safety PRACTICE was a part of the culture and structure of LEAD (as it was on the rocks), the accident wouldn't have happened, at least, not the way it did. The LEAD culture was to teach RISK-taking as an element of "believing" (magic).
I guess you weren't really there, at TWI.
The sad part is, this tragedy probably confirmed The Way management's warped assessment of the LEAD 104 group. The losers couldn't even believe to prevent an accident."
=================
Mr Hammeroni:
"I don't if its really about the blame, as much- at least to me. What I find highly disturbing, is how these kind of things seemingly disappear, swept under the rug so to speak.
I can honestly say that I NEVER heard anything about this stuff. Never- after twenty years involvement. Why?
Is it possible that the BOD and minions do not want to admit that if they are cut, that they will bleed, just like anybody else? What happens to their claim of superiority and "abundance"? Apparently it did not work this time. Or that da debil somehow had access to this supposed pure, clean protected bunch? How could this be? Same stupid junk- "that da ministry be not blamed".
Anything that had a remote potential of giving them or their doctrines a black eye seems to have had a habit of vanishing in the night."
====================
Alfakat:
"well, they were the BOT, om ---it was their f-ing job, no?? They wanted the accolades but not the responsibility. Everything run on a frickin shoe-string...home-made trailer, my a$$...surprised the truck wasn't home-made, too.
Too cheap and tight-a$$ed to do things right, like the world....
satori, I just read your last post...spot-on, EXACTLY. anyone who spent time on staff knows NOTHING was too much for ole vp, but everybody else could make-do... a home-made trailer???? fer krap's sake, not lik e they could buy a real one..."
===================
Watered Garden:
"Maybe this is another one of my dumb remarks, but here in Buckeye Land, having ONE person riding in the bed of a pickup truck is against the law. There were 15 or so folks in the back of that one, and they were towing a trailer? That's not only dumb, it's against the law in most states."
================
TheHighWay:
"Satori... dead-on post!!!
On a trip to HQ, I was told to drive my car close enough to the leader's car that he could see me in his rear-view mirror. The guy was speeding like a demon down a road known for speed traps. So, it doesn't strike me as odd that one of us got stopped by a cop. It happened to be me. The cop was nice and just gave me a warning, but what did my leader say, "Your lack of believing is why you got stopped."
(no, dumb-a**, my being stupid enough to follow your orders while you broke the law is why I got stopped!)
This was typical both of leadership's attitudes, and follower's willingness to go against their better judgement."
===============
Satori:
"Yes, that's right oldiesman. You think it's absurd?
Way management mandated the extended evaluations (not for one or two participants, but ALL of them) be completed within the limited LEAD schedule time-frame rather than providing additional needed time.
The "naked emporor" here, which nobody wants to mention, is that the patented TWI magic (the so-called "keys to believing") doesn't WORK like a light switch. Believing doesn't "work" with any predictability, if it "works" at all. If believing had worked for Ministry management, they never would have needed LEAD to sort the winners from the losers."
===============
jardinero explained what it means to BE a board member of a nonprofit organization.
"1) As a board member of a nonprofit organization, I have a fiduciary oversight responsibility as a board member. Should I fail to excercise proper oversight and there is some sort of financial fraud or other mismanagement of funds and a lawsuit follows, I can be named in the lawsuit even though I've not necessarily been involved in the actual fraud or other wrong doing - - including being just plain stupid
2) As a manager in a corporation, when an employee comes to me and complains of discrimination, sexual or other types of harrassment and I don't report it to Human Resources for his/her permanent employee file and see to it some action is taken (that's my accountability in the matter) - - I can be named in a lawsuit and held liable for damages.
Ditto with safety regulations (like OSHA) when I fail to enforce them with my employees and someone is injured or dies.
Just wanted to bring that up....."
===============
shazdancer:
"Oldies, you don't think there was enough money to buy a couple of vans or buses or trailers for this work? THAT was the responsibility of the BOT. They knew how many people were being transported out to the highway.
Satori, thanks for the comparison with Wierwille's insistence on perfection and safety on his AIRPLANE!"
==============
skyrider:
"How many times did vpw LECTURE THE CORPS ON DETAILS.........citing how when howard allen was driving the coach that he had to be extra diligent to not swerve an inch.
ELSE......veepee would get thrown around at the back of the bus!!!!!!"
============
igotout:
"I was on the very 1st LEAD group in the mountains near Gunnison. Ours was experimental, and we too, were exposed to some hazards. Being naturally adept at climbing, I was picked with a few others to do a 400' rock climb one morning. A few moves scared even me and I LOVE heights and climbing. One slip and cartain death would have been the result. Though there was a SINGLE safety lead line, there were some close calls while transitioning from point to point while unattached.
I feel we were put at risk, none of us having had any training in rock climbing, etc., including Steve our instructor. Afterwards they asked me to be on LEAD staff but I politely declined (I don't like camping.)
Obviously the hitchiking was dangerous in many ways. I hitchiked a LOT, at least 8 times, in the Way Corps. It was tiring. Our 7th Corps brother, Ken and his wife were in one of the later groups. He was killed as he walked in the path of an oncoming semi truck one evening as Evelyn watched. We were all shocked and had sleepless nights of disbelief and pain."
And LEAD staff was a big part of that, getting the (spiritual) hitchhikers back on the road on time. Even if it meant reading evaluation forms, driving 50 mph in strong crosswinds with a trailer and a truck load of people. Is it stupid to do that? No, not if you're "believing" is there. You're covered, bro. You can do anything with believing (magic), and do it safely, even if it looks a little dangerous.
Here satori seems to be opining that in that situation, the driver was applying "the law of believing" to be safe in the midst of his unsafe actions.
But, how in the world does satori know all that?
Does satori know the specific mindset of the driver, at that time?
Did he speak with him, to make an accurate assessment of what he was thinking and feeling and believing in that specific incident?
Or could satori be communicating a misconception based on ignoring the driver's actual position, which he doesn't know, and substituting a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position?
Here satori seems to be opining that in that situation, the driver was applying "the law of believing" to be safe in the midst of his unsafe actions.
But, how in the world does satori know all that?
Does satori know the specific mindset of the driver, at that time?
Fairly well, he DOES.
He read the account of the guy sitting RIGHT NEXT TO HIM,
of both the expectations BEFORE the LEAD trip,
and the expectations DURING the LEAD trip,
and the exact incidents up to the exact second of the accident.
Since you read it the LAST time you argued that twi was blameless for this,
you didn't try this then.
Your attempts to pull it now either indicate
A) you're posting on this without caring about the details
or
B) you remember the details and choose to deliberately misrepresent them
or
C) A) and B)
Did he speak with him, to make an accurate assessment of what he was thinking and feeling and believing in that specific incident?
See above.
Or could satori be communicating a misconception based on ignoring the driver's actual position, which he doesn't know, and substituting a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position?
He COULD be if he hadn't read the entire first-person report of someone who WAS there.
BTW, it was TYPICAL of the type of expectations the corps got ALL THE TIME,
ESPECIALLY in LEAD.
Wordwolf, thanks for the strawman information.
It was helpful. :D
It was, but not to you, since you knew all this already.
I could probably make a case that the driver wasn't really actually "believing for safety" since he seemed to be ignoring basic driving precautions.
But what the heck, its Thursday.
OH - but he was obeying the directive of the Men of Gawd!
Obedience was just believing that the MOG was right and acting accordingly.
I'm pretty sure that when the driver started driving that the wind wasn't an issue - It surprised HIM!!!!
So why is this so difficult????
Because there are none so blind as those who WILL not see.
Tonto, let's say that's true, and twi didn't want to spend the loot to get you there.
So?
Had twi spent the loot, to get you there, and something bad happened in transporting folks there with the loot they spent, they'd get blamed anyway.
Don't ya get it yet?
(Some folks do, I've gotten some emails so I know some folks do get what I'm saying.)
Oh glow-ray. :D
Would you please be more specific on what those folks got. Would you please list there names here on your post replying to me - and list what they said - this way I know you're not making this stuff up...You do actually have the emails don't you?...If you have them - you can give a summation of each person's email - showing their support for your position - let's see what they said. I'm sure they wouldn't have a problem with you referencing them unless you made up stuff.
He COULD be if he hadn't read the entire first-person report of someone who WAS there.
BTW, it was TYPICAL of the type of expectations the corps got ALL THE TIME,
ESPECIALLY in LEAD.
HCW never said that Kevin was applying the law of believing magic, thereby ignoring safety considerations, as satori alleges. That is all satoris' spin.
Did you read all what HCW wrote, before satori's rant?
Heck, I don't think even HCW would or could actually know what was in Kevin's mind and heart in that particular moment, unless Kevin shared it with him.
You are spinning, using satori's distorted spin, as what purportedly occurred.
Would you please be more specific on what those folks got. Would you please list there names here on your post replying to me - and list what they said -
Oldies, Dooj pretty much summed it up as far as twi not being worthy of blame if they had at least attempted to transport us in a safe manner. Point is, it really was cheapness on TWI's part in having us hitch.
VMP is Victim Mentality Propaganda, a mindset that you and some others engage in repeatedly, against all that is twi.
Portray everyone as helpless victims of Wierwille and twi. That's it, in a nutshell.
Wordwolf, because of your corrupt and hateful thinking of all that is twi, your analysis is biased, and your hatred continues to corrupt you.
OM, you throw many rocks at people here. Why do you continue to try to debunk other's experiences while in twi only the save the image of the almight Doctor Victor Paul Wierwille and The Way International???? There was stench; it wasn't all perfect; and you know damn well that crap happened to people. If you had a perfect time in TWI, well good for you. But there are too many that didn't have a perfect time in TWI who were hurt mentallly, physically, and spiritually. You need to stop give them crap for speaking about their experiences and stop telling people their hate corrupts them. Hatrid for evil is not wrong. VPW was evil some of the time, and so were a lot of his cronies. Live with it!!!
KNOWING THIS FIRST !---------------This thread is not about hitchhiking. Nor is it about LEAD, WC agreements, jumping off cliffs, walking on water,or being given the task of driving in impossible conditions or reaching them safely and legally in a reasonable time frame. It is quite simply about foolhardy behavior. Not our foolhardy behavior,mind you, but the foolhardy behavior of those who required these actions without accurate scriptural referance or direct revelation from GOD ALMIGHTY. Many instances of what may seem to be foolhardy behavior can be found in the Bible if one has the initiative to search. Upon close examination, these records will show that one or both criteria were always present. Did twi have accurate scritural referance to require these actions? Did any of these leaders have revelations to make these demands? Perhaps that's what made them "foolhardy".In a previous post I specifically used the word "danger" which one poster ,in responding, conveniently changed to "evil " in a blatent attempt to distort the intended meaning. ----------As for the issue of not Knocking on "that" door again because the occupant told you not to, was this conclusion reached because of what he said or implied or because GOD told you not to? This may seem like a somewhat cynic remark but I assure you I ask in earnest. This is the type of question many who post here were faced with on a continual basis and hoped and prayed they would answer appropriately.
Geez..............what is it you people don't get about OM, anyway? The guy only want's to argue. He has absolutely no interest in anything you have to say. He has no intention of ever removing the rose colored glasses. Certainly not worth the tapping on the keyboards to respond to him on these threads.
Move on. They eventually shut up when they don't get the attention.
It is quite simply about foolhardy behavior. Not our foolhardy behavior,mind you, but the foolhardy behavior of those who required these actions without accurate scriptural referance or direct revelation from GOD ALMIGHTY.
Actually, I think it is about our foolhardy behaviour ... and what motivated us to risk our lives.
My synopsis ...
we were challenged (throw down a challenge)
youthful exuberance about Gawd trumped common sense
youthful stupidity / arrogance
peer or group pressure
fear of leaders unleashing a screaming tirade on us
inner child acting out against the establishment
That's just off the top of my head ... and I'm not sure I should try to go any deeper :)
Rhino---------Your point is very valid and well taken. Remember the teaching of of how Paul erred in judgment but not in heart and how we could weigh decisions in this same light? I humbly submit that we may well have erred in judgement but we surely weren't the ones who erred in heart. That place was reservered for those who gave us directives that were based on flawed thinking,and not scripture or revelation.
Jardi's right... OM picks one point out of a conversation that everyone else seems to "get" without any trouble, and then inanely argues it to death...
...whether he believes it or not... he's got his agenda...
quote: "The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:
1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed
You'd know all about that. All your attacks on TWI follow this pattern. For as long as your posts are, you sure don't have much to say.
This quote comes to mind although I don't remember who is credited with saying it (according to my sources lots of people have been - so let's not get another thread started)
"The only thing necessary for evil to exist is for good men to do nothing."
SOOOO no matter how good certain members of the BOT seemed, no matter who your favorite leader was, IF he or she saw the evil coming and did nothing they contributed to it.
I humbly submit that we may well have erred in judgement but we surely weren't the ones who erred in heart. That place was reservered for those who gave us directives that were based on flawed thinking,and not scripture or revelation.
Well, I think many of us were pure and gullible, but there was some ego and stupidity, etc that allowed us to be led astray. That doesn't necessarily make us pure ... and I wouldn't put "them" is a reserved class either ... some of them were worse than others ... but for the most part them were the ones that were willing to trample on the hearts that open and minds that ask. (minds that open, hearts that ask? I forget)
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
20
53
44
23
Popular Days
Aug 1
66
Aug 2
64
Aug 3
57
Jul 27
33
Top Posters In This Topic
rascal 20 posts
oldiesman 53 posts
WordWolf 44 posts
doojable 23 posts
Popular Days
Aug 1 2006
66 posts
Aug 2 2006
64 posts
Aug 3 2006
57 posts
Jul 27 2006
33 posts
Popular Posts
rascal
Rhino posted on the roa thread about driving while exhausted putting himself, his passenger and other drivers at serious risk in order to get to roa (wish I knew how to cut and cross post) Here's th
outandabout
If we're not supposed to use our "five senses", why did God give them to us?
WordWolf
Since Oldiesman wants to change this thread from
"criminal negligence leading to foolhardy behaviour as MANDATED by twi"
into "let's derail and discuss the LEAD accident,
I'll go along for now.
=================
Satori:
"The TWI management philosophy is: "deprivation + believing = abundance." The top leadership applies this philosophy (a.k.a., magic formula) to everyone but themselves.
By hand-picking their high-maintenance Corps people (by their own cold, cynical reckoning) for LEAD Group 104 (and whose bone-headed, foolish idea was it? Lynn's? Martindale's? - whatever, they had to approve it), TWI management over-burdened the competent but small staff at Tinney.
Management's expectation, as usual, was they would be well-served by the magical "believing" of the staff, or if not, they could blame the staff for its failure to "believe" (practice effective magic). No believing (magic) required on their own part - pretty convenient.
For crying out loud, the LEAD program was in the wilderness! That was the idea for creating a "challenge." Screw-ups anywhere are dangerous enough, but even minor accidents in the wilderness can become deadly.
So dumbass TWI leadership sends this (supposedly) issue-prone "losers" group - all together. To a virtual survival camp?? And you ask the bare-bones staff, in one session, to keep them all safe, enable them to climb vertical rock walls, AND do your vetting work for you - the work that should have been done on the field, one-on-one, or in residence?
If TWI leaders couldn't "believe" to get the vetting done in a safer, controlled environment, what made them think LEAD would be such a nifty idea? They were f-ing STUPID, that's what. They were also thoughtless, or callous, or even cold-blooded, mercenary bastards, where people's lives were concerned. They made a show of "loving" people, but the love-dove stuff went down the crapper when personal priorities or ministry goals were at stake.
What TWI was hoping to do with LEAD 104 was save time, letting the LEAD program shake you all loose as efficiently as possible.
I'll be honest here. I don't think Rochelle was ever meant for the Corps program, neither for what it was supposed to be (and never was), and especially, not for what it was - from the 6th Corps(approximately) on. I believe she was looking for a place to belong, where her talents and intelligence could be put to the best possible purpose, and hoped the Corps would provide it - not just a "place," but a family.
Had TWI been a truly Christian group, and not the fraud it quickly became as Wierwille realized his ambitions, she might have found it, and herself. To the Way Corps program, as it was, she was a throw-away, along with so many others, caught in the net but to be tossed out, unwanted."
====================
Satori again:
"oldiesman,
The driver was responsible for the accident. Yes. Nobody would question that, so your real point is that you are missing the point.
Who was the driver's employer? What was the driver doing while driving? Why?
Specifically, what were the circumstances leading to a distracted, young man reading an evaluation form, while operating a fast-moving truck, towing a trailer, with a load of people in the back on a windy, back-country highway. No red flags for you, huh? Blame stops with the driver? How convenient for the Board of Trustees, who consistently appointed -what shall we call them? okay - dumbasses, to run the Corps, and consequently to make asinine decisions like the one that led to (remedial) LEAD group 104, requiring extended evaluations for which there was INSUFFICIENT TIME to complete.
I'm not saying Way management wanted the accident to happen. They were just too stupid and thoughtless, oh, and NEGLIGENT!! to consider the danger of over-burdening the LEAD staff, when it was already under so many other constraints, real and administrative.
Oh, "by the way." Why is it swept under the rug? Because NEGLIGENCE = LIABILITY, that's why."
===================
waterbuffalo:
"..right, satori001, and it wasn't as if twi didn't have the $$ to enlarge the staff or to train them more thoroughly..."
==================
Georgio Jessio:
"I've posted either here or on Waydale about the incompetence that left my mother with a forever broken back. She's never recovered and was chastised because she wasn't "walking in the spirit". She walked right off of a mountain side and took a violent fall because a LEADer told her, a middle aged woman from The Bronx, to go back to camp to retrieve something, take a left at the oak tree and a right at the maple tree. She tried to tell them that she didn't know the difference between trees an she was reproved for not remembering what she had been taught. She obediently went , misunderstood the difference between trees and took a terrible fall.
She came home early from LEAD and I wasn't told that she had returned or that she had been in an accident. We had "sub parents": Fellow corps that kept an eye on the kids while Family Corps parents went lead. They knew she was back and didn't tell me. They continued to act as my parents while my mother was being kept away from me. I heard thru the grapevine that she was back and had gotten hurt because "her believing wasn't there". I demended to see her and get some info and finally was allowed to see her days later. I couldn't sleep knowing my mother was hurt, I wasn't allowed to see her or have any info. It was torture.
Many were talking about it in front of me, making my mother look bad without regard to my feelings. She wasn't allowed to go to a doctor until she reached a level of pain that was turned around on her as a lack of believing.
It was all her fault. She was never treated and now her bones are fused incorrectly.
Oldies man: It is neglegent and unreasonable to require people to hitch hike across the country."
================
Satori:
"oldiesman, when you put employees under the pressure of time constraints, they may have to cut corners to deliver results on time. If you're talking about the BRC offices at Headquarters, where somebody might stumble over a stapler, that's one thing. But when you're talking about Way Builders, or LEAD, or any operation where safety is a critical consideration, then management MUST stress safety above all else.
What did TWI stress? "Believing," in other words, magic. And of course, results. Safety was only a factor of your believing. If you "believed" (practiced amateur magic), God would cover (because he loves amateur magicians).
WHAT is TWI renowned for saying any time a "believer" (amateur magician) gets sick or hurt. It's their BELIEVING, right oldiesman? They believed for disease or injury or death, just like old, dead of cancer Victor P. Wierwille, uh, or was that an attack-of-the-Adversary? - stay tuned for the "present truth" to be revealed, depending on what time it is.
You can say it's impossible for TWI management to take oversight to enforce safety standards and measures adequate for preventing every accident. But they did enforce those measures, selectively. You can bet Vic's bus and airplane were well inspected, and that sufficient TIME was allowed to do the job right.
But LEAD placed a big priority on the schedule. It was a matter of honor and pride (and believing, which is magic) to arrive at LEAD, and back, on TIME. And LEAD staff was a big part of that, getting the (spiritual) hitchhikers back on the road on time. Even if it meant reading evaluation forms, driving 50 mph in strong crosswinds with a trailer and a truck load of people. Is it stupid to do that? No, not if you're "believing" is there. You're covered, bro. You can do anything with believing (magic), and do it safely, even if it looks a little dangerous.
Why didn't HCW say, "Stop this thing, I'm not proceeding with the eval while you're driving?" Because he would have been questioning the driver's believing, that's why, and his own would be on the line. After all, he was part of LEAD 104, the losers' group. He would be giving in to fear (FALSE EVIDENCE APPEARING REAL), and that would be putting everyone at risk of losing their (magical) hedge of protection, giving the Adversary an opportunity to steal, kill and destroy.
So HCW didn't confess any negatives, like "slow this goddam truck down now, dammit." That would have been negative. Why? Because that's what TWI taught, and not only taught, but enforced with systematic intimidation. Being assigned to LEAD-for-Losers group 104 was part of TWI's ugly campaign of intimidation against its own followers, especially Corps (who in turn, turned it upon others). It just stinks of Martindale, to tell you the truth, it reeks of the stain and stench of "spiritual" humiliation, L. Craig Martindale's modus operandi.
If it had come down from TWI management that safety PRACTICE was a part of the culture and structure of LEAD (as it was on the rocks), the accident wouldn't have happened, at least, not the way it did. The LEAD culture was to teach RISK-taking as an element of "believing" (magic).
I guess you weren't really there, at TWI.
The sad part is, this tragedy probably confirmed The Way management's warped assessment of the LEAD 104 group. The losers couldn't even believe to prevent an accident."
=================
Mr Hammeroni:
"I don't if its really about the blame, as much- at least to me. What I find highly disturbing, is how these kind of things seemingly disappear, swept under the rug so to speak.
I can honestly say that I NEVER heard anything about this stuff. Never- after twenty years involvement. Why?
Is it possible that the BOD and minions do not want to admit that if they are cut, that they will bleed, just like anybody else? What happens to their claim of superiority and "abundance"? Apparently it did not work this time. Or that da debil somehow had access to this supposed pure, clean protected bunch? How could this be? Same stupid junk- "that da ministry be not blamed".
Anything that had a remote potential of giving them or their doctrines a black eye seems to have had a habit of vanishing in the night."
====================
Alfakat:
"well, they were the BOT, om ---it was their f-ing job, no?? They wanted the accolades but not the responsibility. Everything run on a frickin shoe-string...home-made trailer, my a$$...surprised the truck wasn't home-made, too.
Too cheap and tight-a$$ed to do things right, like the world....
satori, I just read your last post...spot-on, EXACTLY. anyone who spent time on staff knows NOTHING was too much for ole vp, but everybody else could make-do... a home-made trailer???? fer krap's sake, not lik e they could buy a real one..."
===================
Watered Garden:
"Maybe this is another one of my dumb remarks, but here in Buckeye Land, having ONE person riding in the bed of a pickup truck is against the law. There were 15 or so folks in the back of that one, and they were towing a trailer? That's not only dumb, it's against the law in most states."
================
TheHighWay:
"Satori... dead-on post!!!
On a trip to HQ, I was told to drive my car close enough to the leader's car that he could see me in his rear-view mirror. The guy was speeding like a demon down a road known for speed traps. So, it doesn't strike me as odd that one of us got stopped by a cop. It happened to be me. The cop was nice and just gave me a warning, but what did my leader say, "Your lack of believing is why you got stopped."
(no, dumb-a**, my being stupid enough to follow your orders while you broke the law is why I got stopped!)
This was typical both of leadership's attitudes, and follower's willingness to go against their better judgement."
===============
Satori:
"Yes, that's right oldiesman. You think it's absurd?
Way management mandated the extended evaluations (not for one or two participants, but ALL of them) be completed within the limited LEAD schedule time-frame rather than providing additional needed time.
The "naked emporor" here, which nobody wants to mention, is that the patented TWI magic (the so-called "keys to believing") doesn't WORK like a light switch. Believing doesn't "work" with any predictability, if it "works" at all. If believing had worked for Ministry management, they never would have needed LEAD to sort the winners from the losers."
===============
jardinero explained what it means to BE a board member of a nonprofit organization.
"1) As a board member of a nonprofit organization, I have a fiduciary oversight responsibility as a board member. Should I fail to excercise proper oversight and there is some sort of financial fraud or other mismanagement of funds and a lawsuit follows, I can be named in the lawsuit even though I've not necessarily been involved in the actual fraud or other wrong doing - - including being just plain stupid
2) As a manager in a corporation, when an employee comes to me and complains of discrimination, sexual or other types of harrassment and I don't report it to Human Resources for his/her permanent employee file and see to it some action is taken (that's my accountability in the matter) - - I can be named in a lawsuit and held liable for damages.
Ditto with safety regulations (like OSHA) when I fail to enforce them with my employees and someone is injured or dies.
Just wanted to bring that up....."
===============
shazdancer:
"Oldies, you don't think there was enough money to buy a couple of vans or buses or trailers for this work? THAT was the responsibility of the BOT. They knew how many people were being transported out to the highway.
Satori, thanks for the comparison with Wierwille's insistence on perfection and safety on his AIRPLANE!"
==============
skyrider:
"How many times did vpw LECTURE THE CORPS ON DETAILS.........citing how when howard allen was driving the coach that he had to be extra diligent to not swerve an inch.
ELSE......veepee would get thrown around at the back of the bus!!!!!!"
============
igotout:
"I was on the very 1st LEAD group in the mountains near Gunnison. Ours was experimental, and we too, were exposed to some hazards. Being naturally adept at climbing, I was picked with a few others to do a 400' rock climb one morning. A few moves scared even me and I LOVE heights and climbing. One slip and cartain death would have been the result. Though there was a SINGLE safety lead line, there were some close calls while transitioning from point to point while unattached.
I feel we were put at risk, none of us having had any training in rock climbing, etc., including Steve our instructor. Afterwards they asked me to be on LEAD staff but I politely declined (I don't like camping.)
Obviously the hitchiking was dangerous in many ways. I hitchiked a LOT, at least 8 times, in the Way Corps. It was tiring. Our 7th Corps brother, Ken and his wife were in one of the later groups. He was killed as he walked in the path of an oncoming semi truck one evening as Evelyn watched. We were all shocked and had sleepless nights of disbelief and pain."
Edited by WordWolfLink to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
I think you want quotes and facts - but the truth is that there was so much implied that you won't get what you're asking for.
Think about the pressures put on all those involved - go back and READ!
Here
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Actually, he's COUNTING ON NOT GETTING IT.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
A fool convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Here satori seems to be opining that in that situation, the driver was applying "the law of believing" to be safe in the midst of his unsafe actions.
But, how in the world does satori know all that?
Does satori know the specific mindset of the driver, at that time?
Did he speak with him, to make an accurate assessment of what he was thinking and feeling and believing in that specific incident?
Or could satori be communicating a misconception based on ignoring the driver's actual position, which he doesn't know, and substituting a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position?
Wordwolf, thanks for the strawman information.
It was helpful. :D
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
I could probably make a case that the driver wasn't really actually "believing for safety" since he seemed to be ignoring basic driving precautions.
But what the heck, its Thursday.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
OH - but he was obeying the directive of the Men of Gawd!
Obedience was just believing that the MOG was right and acting accordingly.
I'm pretty sure that when the driver started driving that the wind wasn't an issue - It surprised HIM!!!!
So why is this so difficult????
Edited by doojableLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Fairly well, he DOES.
He read the account of the guy sitting RIGHT NEXT TO HIM,
of both the expectations BEFORE the LEAD trip,
and the expectations DURING the LEAD trip,
and the exact incidents up to the exact second of the accident.
Since you read it the LAST time you argued that twi was blameless for this,
you didn't try this then.
Your attempts to pull it now either indicate
A) you're posting on this without caring about the details
or
B) you remember the details and choose to deliberately misrepresent them
or
C) A) and B)
See above.He COULD be if he hadn't read the entire first-person report of someone who WAS there.
BTW, it was TYPICAL of the type of expectations the corps got ALL THE TIME,
ESPECIALLY in LEAD.
It was, but not to you, since you knew all this already.Because there are none so blind as those who WILL not see.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Would you please be more specific on what those folks got. Would you please list there names here on your post replying to me - and list what they said - this way I know you're not making this stuff up...You do actually have the emails don't you?...If you have them - you can give a summation of each person's email - showing their support for your position - let's see what they said. I'm sure they wouldn't have a problem with you referencing them unless you made up stuff.
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
HCW never said that Kevin was applying the law of believing magic, thereby ignoring safety considerations, as satori alleges. That is all satoris' spin.
Did you read all what HCW wrote, before satori's rant?
Heck, I don't think even HCW would or could actually know what was in Kevin's mind and heart in that particular moment, unless Kevin shared it with him.
You are spinning, using satori's distorted spin, as what purportedly occurred.
Edited by oldiesmanLink to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
No T-Bone, I'm not at liberty.
You don't have to believe me, I'm not offended.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
tonto
Oldies, Dooj pretty much summed it up as far as twi not being worthy of blame if they had at least attempted to transport us in a safe manner. Point is, it really was cheapness on TWI's part in having us hitch.
Like I said before, Vic's priorities:
Power/Glory
Money
"Little Vic"
His let his life tell the story.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
tonto
And T-Bone,
Hitchin' was b i tc#in with you, my love. You helped keep me safe...thanks again.
Sorry for the derail.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Nottawayfer
OM, you throw many rocks at people here. Why do you continue to try to debunk other's experiences while in twi only the save the image of the almight Doctor Victor Paul Wierwille and The Way International???? There was stench; it wasn't all perfect; and you know damn well that crap happened to people. If you had a perfect time in TWI, well good for you. But there are too many that didn't have a perfect time in TWI who were hurt mentallly, physically, and spiritually. You need to stop give them crap for speaking about their experiences and stop telling people their hate corrupts them. Hatrid for evil is not wrong. VPW was evil some of the time, and so were a lot of his cronies. Live with it!!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Tonto, we make a great team - sure glad I'm with you on this life's journey. Love yah big time!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
KNOWING THIS FIRST !---------------This thread is not about hitchhiking. Nor is it about LEAD, WC agreements, jumping off cliffs, walking on water,or being given the task of driving in impossible conditions or reaching them safely and legally in a reasonable time frame. It is quite simply about foolhardy behavior. Not our foolhardy behavior,mind you, but the foolhardy behavior of those who required these actions without accurate scriptural referance or direct revelation from GOD ALMIGHTY. Many instances of what may seem to be foolhardy behavior can be found in the Bible if one has the initiative to search. Upon close examination, these records will show that one or both criteria were always present. Did twi have accurate scritural referance to require these actions? Did any of these leaders have revelations to make these demands? Perhaps that's what made them "foolhardy".In a previous post I specifically used the word "danger" which one poster ,in responding, conveniently changed to "evil " in a blatent attempt to distort the intended meaning. ----------As for the issue of not Knocking on "that" door again because the occupant told you not to, was this conclusion reached because of what he said or implied or because GOD told you not to? This may seem like a somewhat cynic remark but I assure you I ask in earnest. This is the type of question many who post here were faced with on a continual basis and hoped and prayed they would answer appropriately.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
jardinero
TROLL ALERT
Geez..............what is it you people don't get about OM, anyway? The guy only want's to argue. He has absolutely no interest in anything you have to say. He has no intention of ever removing the rose colored glasses. Certainly not worth the tapping on the keyboards to respond to him on these threads.
Move on. They eventually shut up when they don't get the attention.
J.
Edited by jardineroLink to comment
Share on other sites
rhino
Actually, I think it is about our foolhardy behaviour ... and what motivated us to risk our lives.
My synopsis ...
That's just off the top of my head ... and I'm not sure I should try to go any deeper :)
Edited by rhinoLink to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Rhino---------Your point is very valid and well taken. Remember the teaching of of how Paul erred in judgment but not in heart and how we could weigh decisions in this same light? I humbly submit that we may well have erred in judgement but we surely weren't the ones who erred in heart. That place was reservered for those who gave us directives that were based on flawed thinking,and not scripture or revelation.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
Jardi's right... OM picks one point out of a conversation that everyone else seems to "get" without any trouble, and then inanely argues it to death...
...whether he believes it or not... he's got his agenda...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
quote: "The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:
1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed
You'd know all about that. All your attacks on TWI follow this pattern. For as long as your posts are, you sure don't have much to say.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
THIS is why I heartily endorse the "ignore" feature.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
This quote comes to mind although I don't remember who is credited with saying it (according to my sources lots of people have been - so let's not get another thread started)
"The only thing necessary for evil to exist is for good men to do nothing."
SOOOO no matter how good certain members of the BOT seemed, no matter who your favorite leader was, IF he or she saw the evil coming and did nothing they contributed to it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rhino
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.