This *believing* teaching was really a problem even after leaving twi....
I remember when the kids were small, my husband giving me a hard time because I buckled the children and myself in when we got in the car....he considered this *negative* believing...a lack of confidence in him and God ....(course that opinion changed when he shattered his face on the steering wheel during a wreck) ...
If I took the kids in for shots or to the Dr. it was *negative* believing....if I opted to birth my children in the hospital rather than at home, it was a lack of believing.....
Sometimes adherance to this belief was dangerous, other times just down right silly....
For a long time, I wasn`t allowed to use spouses car because my *believing* wasn`t there to keep it running right... It STILL bothers him to let me use it...lol
When my poor old worn out appliances would break, it was my lack of believing...
It seems like any time I used my brain or good sense...it was considered *negative* or a sign of a lack of believing.
I lived within 250 mile radius...I remember in my days trips to hdqrt's, doing the trip for Sunday Services and getting home at 2 am and then going to work at 8am....
Thanks to all those brave men who drove..we usualy laughed and sang songs, It was fun....we were kind of careless in ways, lack of sleep, no seat belts....cars with wired mufflers..haha!!!!!
Oh lordy lordy, I probably should NOT get started on this one.
I've often considered the times we brought someone home that we'd just met that day and let them stay at our house. With our daughter!!
The times we picked up some soul on the side of the road, fed, clothes, gave money to. Got evicted once cuz of that kind of behavior but that's another thread.
And, well, you know how I feel about the way we 'believed' for health. My children's father is dead because of that one.
"Every time that our 5 senses would kick in and tell us that *hey this is NOT a good idea* .. we were trained to shut that voice down with all critical thinking ...assuming that Satan was trying to trick us into not doing God`s will at our leaders bidding"
Personally, I would say, it would say that this was not always just your 5-senses, but God telling you "this is a really bad idea." But since it contradicted what our leaders and they weren't listening, you ended up being taught not to listen to God.
EXACTLY Keth, God couldn`t have gotten through our fiercly renewed minds with a pile driver.
Our leaders said do thus and such ... God works in our leaders... any thought that questioned the insanity of what we were doing was labled *from satan*
Peter was always used as the example....he listened and obeyed his leader and got to walk on water.... when his 5 senses saw the wind and waves...he sank.
((((shellon)))) I know, I was thinking about your situation as one of several examples when I wrote that, I am sorry.
I hear you about bringing home strangers...as well , I took in wierd family members.
We would be required to take any grad of pfal into our way homes....even if the creeped us out.
There were several pervs that come to mind....
I know that I read of people leaving their infants and young children alone asleep for hours while attending functions at other locations....trusting that God would protect them...sigh
Likean eagle, yeah sometimes it was fun, but my point was that some of the things that we were expected to do were extremely foolish. We were counting on our *believing* to keep us safe and cover our bu tts as per twi`s *truth* :(
When we didn`t recieve the *believed for* results...we were blamed...there was something wrong with us.
When folks sickend and died...their lack of believing was noted....they were even scorned
When folks had car wrecks and died ...we analysed their lives to find out where the *blew it* where their believing had failed...were they tithing enough .. had they ignored a cue from leaders or god.....How had THEY let satan in?
People`s lives and reputations were savaged ANYTIME disaster befell because some how they had failed.
When we were kids my mom and dad would bring home the homeless and anyone that seemed to be "interested" in taking PFAL. One such person turned out to be a convicted child molester and he tried to get alone with my middle brother. My mom was wise enough to not let this occur and found out later that THAT instinct was God.
I remember one time in particular. I was told to get to the next intermediate class so, I could make it to the advanced class. I was new to all this, having just taken the PFAL class. But, the leadership insisted I was ready for the advanced class and this would be the only intermediate class in the area at the time. The class was 1.5 hours away, during good weather. It was so bad out, all the interstates were closed and everyone was told if found out on the interstates, they would be arrested. I was told to believe and get there, no matter what. So, out I go,, the only fool on the road. The entire drive took me over 8 hours and I never saw one person driving, the entire way. I think I drove like 5 mile per hour, to get there.
Of course the only people there were those hosting the class and people living close by. The closer I got, in the neighborhood streets, there were cars stranded everywhere.
But, have the class we did. Boy, did I get all kinds of pats on the back for my believing. Exhausted and stressed like crazy from being scared the entire trip, I just beamed, feeling like I had conquered Mount Everest. The entire weekend, we had the class, but, the leadership took every opportunity to dicuss the unbelieving people who were supposed to be there.
Some people actually made it the final day of the class and were turned away, told to leave because they hadn't been able to believe to get there at the start of the class.
Looking back on all this, I saw the methods of reeling people in with high praise for blindly obeying and and once a part of the group, the great displeasure when one didn't believe, and obey the leadership.
I think, so many of us, we're very vulnerable, so wanting to know God, please God, we were willing to do almost anything.
It takes time, but, the peace comes, knowing the spirit within us is our guide, our path, in everything.
Here's the post that Rascal referred to, it's also cut & pasted into her original post:
One year I drove back to TN, cleaned windows, then drove back exhausted through the night. An eighth corps coulda bit the dust with me as we sleepily drifted back at 70 mph to fulfill our corpse obligations.
straying from just ROA exhaustion, I remember falling asleep on the road a few times after marathon meetings and setup ... then having to get back to school or work. Once I did a 180 under an overpass ... some guy almost immediately stopped and pulled my stuck car our with his pick up ... then right ater that a semi with "GRACE" written on the side went by. :blink: A future 11th corpse was riding with me ... we could easily have departed this world early. Other times I remember sticking my head out the window, screaming and slapping myself to stay awake on the road ...
And there was Kirsteen McD... not sure of the circumstances there ... but didn't she collide in a median on her way to Corps? She survived, but can't remember what finally happened with her ...she made it in residence at least for a little while.
Our caring elders in the Word tended toward condemnation for lack of commitment if you didn't put in those long hours ... and we sorta took it as a challenge ... while fatigue made our brains more pliable.
Amazing the things we did in the name of The Way Ministry. I, of course, mention my husband often in this regard, but I also was never so stunned in my life as when the LC of florida trashed the man's name and stand before his God after he died, using his "lack of believing" as an example to those that sat there. Amazing, truly amazing.
I still, nine years later, am shocked at this. I shouldn't be, but I would have assumed that such a dreadful and final consequence would clearly not give them food for more foolishness.
For me personally that was the final straw, I knew then that I had to get the heck outa there.
How about the time I invited the newly paroled rapist to twig at our house when we were two single women with kids living there.
Or the several times I drove solo from California to Ohio for ROA with my infant/toddler daughter in the car. I used to pull into truckstops to sleep because I couldn't afford a motel. Just me and Shannon, sound asleep, in plain view at some remote truckstop in the middle of the night.
How about the time I invited the newly paroled rapist to twig at our house when we were two single women with kids living there.
Or the several times I drove solo from California to Ohio for ROA with my infant/toddler daughter in the car. I used to pull into truckstops to sleep because I couldn't afford a motel. Just me and Shannon, sound asleep, in plain view at some remote truckstop in the middle of the night.
Thanks modish waiter and friendly moderator :) You guys have got me covered! The topic makes much more sense in context.
Rhino, I sure hope that you don`t mind me using your post as a spring board.
free at last....whew Thank GOD your mother listened to that still small voice, that mothers *instinct* instead of heading to our training. It could have very easily been a different story.
Seriously....We were taught to believe that way and it put our sweet babies in danger.
Inexcusable
MckeanJ, that was it....we were patted on the back for our fool hardiness...each success made us that much more willing to ignore common good sense and embark on the next nutty *suggestion* by leadership.
We were definatly taught to look down on people whom had the good sense to heed those internal alarms.
(((((Shell))))) It was cruel.....
He deserved a whole lot better than that from those whom he thought of as friends and family.
Drove all night and fell asleep doing it many times... often more than once in the same trip...
During our first year in rez the day we were to come back from "Christmas" break the worst ice storm in about a century hit the lower plains states so we (my, my sister, future bro in law and a couple of others) piled into the old Orange VW microbus (the one without heating and the rusted through floor boards) and set out on our way... "heck the engine's in the rear, we'll get good traction"...
I think we even left a day early (but the memory's not too clear on that)... it took us three or four hours to make it to the north side of Denton (about 30 miles) and we already had a coating of ice on the bus over an inch thick... we kept on going, I put cayenne pepper in my socks to try and keep my feet warm.. someone had to stay awake in the passenger seat in the front to spray the de-icer on the INSIDE and the outside of the windshield...
Somewhere north of Okla City one of the plugs blew out of the cylinder, so now we had no heat, less compression (power) and could smell the gas fumes... everyone but the person who was spraying the de-icer was laying down in the back bundled up in sleeping bags... so the plug blew out, so we just kept the engine running and stuck it in the ruts and kept on going... made it to Emporia (just before the deadline I think), the bus had over three inches of ice over the entire thing, we were all frozen and tired... but we made it... stoopeed!
Another time we were coming back from somewhere when I was jolted awake (of course I was driving) and we were driving across a field somewhere in the middle of Kansas (after having left the highway at some point before I woke up)...
Many times I'd awaken to see a bridge abutment fast approaching...
Yeah Tom, I remember waking up a time or two to realise I was about to collide with a semi....
What about the times when we had friends that were in trouble...but we thought that with their *believing* everything would be all right.
Our tc was really depressed, his wife had left him, he started talking about needing someone to kick his bu tt....He even cried .... We of course prayed with him, believing that was all he needed to be ok...
We helped him get his house in order.....he started giving his stuff away.... there were several things in hindsight that I should have seen as warnings.....I knew down deep inside though that he was in trouble...I tried to get my spouse to call him daily, tried to tell the lc that our friend was really down and maybe needed him to call ..these were his corpes brothers for petes sake.......but of course was treated rather brusquly and made to understand that I needed to *believe* better for him...... you know .. my fear was negative believing.
Well the guy killed himself.... our believing had produced squat .... our buddy had needed a whole lot more from his friends and spiritual leader than prayer and our *believing*
Course it wasn`t the fault of the leader or his friends who heard his repeated cries for assistance....HE was the one who`s believing had failed.
sure sprawled out *we* ARE still here.... However I know several people personally who are not....good people following the same rules we did .... who didn`t make it.....so God just didn`t care quite as much about them? <_<
We are special because our believing worked and we lived ....while our friends/family who didn`t make it were some how sub standard in their walk and thus paid the penalty?
I think the whole concept is an insult to the people who tried just as hard as we did to adhere to twi teachings....who now in death are viewed as having somehow failed.
"Every time that our 5 senses would kick in and tell us that *hey this is NOT a good idea* .. we were trained to shut that voice down with all critical thinking ...assuming that Satan was trying to trick us into not doing God`s will at our leaders bidding"
Personally, I would say, it would say that this was not always just your 5-senses, but God telling you "this is a really bad idea." But since it contradicted what our leaders and they weren't listening, you ended up being taught not to listen to God.
"Thou shall NOT tempt the Lord thy God" comes to mind now.....................
We did read the bible didn't we? I am so guilty of this insanity. :blink:
Bliss, that was taught in twi as well.
I remember hearing it... like folks who think they have protection from a speeding ticket going 100 mph on the highway as long as they're "believing". No go. twi taught that that was tempting God and not covered by believing.
All such acts would only be covered if one had revelation to do so... something unlikely unless extraordinary circumstances.
Remember Athletes, reckless and hilarious devil spirits? same deal. tempting God....
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
20
53
44
23
Popular Days
Aug 1
66
Aug 2
64
Aug 3
57
Jul 27
33
Top Posters In This Topic
rascal 20 posts
oldiesman 53 posts
WordWolf 44 posts
doojable 23 posts
Popular Days
Aug 1 2006
66 posts
Aug 2 2006
64 posts
Aug 3 2006
57 posts
Jul 27 2006
33 posts
Popular Posts
rascal
Rhino posted on the roa thread about driving while exhausted putting himself, his passenger and other drivers at serious risk in order to get to roa (wish I knew how to cut and cross post) Here's th
outandabout
If we're not supposed to use our "five senses", why did God give them to us?
rascal
This *believing* teaching was really a problem even after leaving twi....
I remember when the kids were small, my husband giving me a hard time because I buckled the children and myself in when we got in the car....he considered this *negative* believing...a lack of confidence in him and God ....(course that opinion changed when he shattered his face on the steering wheel during a wreck) ...
If I took the kids in for shots or to the Dr. it was *negative* believing....if I opted to birth my children in the hospital rather than at home, it was a lack of believing.....
Sometimes adherance to this belief was dangerous, other times just down right silly....
For a long time, I wasn`t allowed to use spouses car because my *believing* wasn`t there to keep it running right...
It STILL bothers him to let me use it...lol
When my poor old worn out appliances would break, it was my lack of believing...
It seems like any time I used my brain or good sense...it was considered *negative* or a sign of a lack of believing.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
likeaneagle
I lived within 250 mile radius...I remember in my days trips to hdqrt's, doing the trip for Sunday Services and getting home at 2 am and then going to work at 8am....
Thanks to all those brave men who drove..we usualy laughed and sang songs, It was fun....we were kind of careless in ways, lack of sleep, no seat belts....cars with wired mufflers..haha!!!!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Shellon
Oh lordy lordy, I probably should NOT get started on this one.
I've often considered the times we brought someone home that we'd just met that day and let them stay at our house. With our daughter!!
The times we picked up some soul on the side of the road, fed, clothes, gave money to. Got evicted once cuz of that kind of behavior but that's another thread.
And, well, you know how I feel about the way we 'believed' for health. My children's father is dead because of that one.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Keith
"Every time that our 5 senses would kick in and tell us that *hey this is NOT a good idea* .. we were trained to shut that voice down with all critical thinking ...assuming that Satan was trying to trick us into not doing God`s will at our leaders bidding"
Personally, I would say, it would say that this was not always just your 5-senses, but God telling you "this is a really bad idea." But since it contradicted what our leaders and they weren't listening, you ended up being taught not to listen to God.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
EXACTLY Keth, God couldn`t have gotten through our fiercly renewed minds with a pile driver.
Our leaders said do thus and such ... God works in our leaders... any thought that questioned the insanity of what we were doing was labled *from satan*
Peter was always used as the example....he listened and obeyed his leader and got to walk on water.... when his 5 senses saw the wind and waves...he sank.
NEVER listen to your 5 senses...it is a trick!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
((((shellon)))) I know, I was thinking about your situation as one of several examples when I wrote that, I am sorry.
I hear you about bringing home strangers...as well , I took in wierd family members.
We would be required to take any grad of pfal into our way homes....even if the creeped us out.
There were several pervs that come to mind....
I know that I read of people leaving their infants and young children alone asleep for hours while attending functions at other locations....trusting that God would protect them...sigh
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Likean eagle, yeah sometimes it was fun, but my point was that some of the things that we were expected to do were extremely foolish. We were counting on our *believing* to keep us safe and cover our bu tts as per twi`s *truth* :(
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Which opens ANOTHER whole can of worms....
When we didn`t recieve the *believed for* results...we were blamed...there was something wrong with us.
When folks sickend and died...their lack of believing was noted....they were even scorned
When folks had car wrecks and died ...we analysed their lives to find out where the *blew it* where their believing had failed...were they tithing enough .. had they ignored a cue from leaders or god.....How had THEY let satan in?
People`s lives and reputations were savaged ANYTIME disaster befell because some how they had failed.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
FreeAtLast
When we were kids my mom and dad would bring home the homeless and anyone that seemed to be "interested" in taking PFAL. One such person turned out to be a convicted child molester and he tried to get alone with my middle brother. My mom was wise enough to not let this occur and found out later that THAT instinct was God.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mckeanj
I remember one time in particular. I was told to get to the next intermediate class so, I could make it to the advanced class. I was new to all this, having just taken the PFAL class. But, the leadership insisted I was ready for the advanced class and this would be the only intermediate class in the area at the time. The class was 1.5 hours away, during good weather. It was so bad out, all the interstates were closed and everyone was told if found out on the interstates, they would be arrested. I was told to believe and get there, no matter what. So, out I go,, the only fool on the road. The entire drive took me over 8 hours and I never saw one person driving, the entire way. I think I drove like 5 mile per hour, to get there.
Of course the only people there were those hosting the class and people living close by. The closer I got, in the neighborhood streets, there were cars stranded everywhere.
But, have the class we did. Boy, did I get all kinds of pats on the back for my believing. Exhausted and stressed like crazy from being scared the entire trip, I just beamed, feeling like I had conquered Mount Everest. The entire weekend, we had the class, but, the leadership took every opportunity to dicuss the unbelieving people who were supposed to be there.
Some people actually made it the final day of the class and were turned away, told to leave because they hadn't been able to believe to get there at the start of the class.
Looking back on all this, I saw the methods of reeling people in with high praise for blindly obeying and and once a part of the group, the great displeasure when one didn't believe, and obey the leadership.
I think, so many of us, we're very vulnerable, so wanting to know God, please God, we were willing to do almost anything.
It takes time, but, the peace comes, knowing the spirit within us is our guide, our path, in everything.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mod Kirk
Here's the post that Rascal referred to, it's also cut & pasted into her original post:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Shellon
Amazing the things we did in the name of The Way Ministry. I, of course, mention my husband often in this regard, but I also was never so stunned in my life as when the LC of florida trashed the man's name and stand before his God after he died, using his "lack of believing" as an example to those that sat there. Amazing, truly amazing.
I still, nine years later, am shocked at this. I shouldn't be, but I would have assumed that such a dreadful and final consequence would clearly not give them food for more foolishness.
For me personally that was the final straw, I knew then that I had to get the heck outa there.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
nolongerlurking
Let's see...
How about the time I invited the newly paroled rapist to twig at our house when we were two single women with kids living there.
Or the several times I drove solo from California to Ohio for ROA with my infant/toddler daughter in the car. I used to pull into truckstops to sleep because I couldn't afford a motel. Just me and Shannon, sound asleep, in plain view at some remote truckstop in the middle of the night.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Shellon
Exactly!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Thanks modish waiter and friendly moderator :) You guys have got me covered! The topic makes much more sense in context.
Rhino, I sure hope that you don`t mind me using your post as a spring board.
free at last....whew Thank GOD your mother listened to that still small voice, that mothers *instinct* instead of heading to our training. It could have very easily been a different story.
Seriously....We were taught to believe that way and it put our sweet babies in danger.
Inexcusable
MckeanJ, that was it....we were patted on the back for our fool hardiness...each success made us that much more willing to ignore common good sense and embark on the next nutty *suggestion* by leadership.
We were definatly taught to look down on people whom had the good sense to heed those internal alarms.
(((((Shell))))) It was cruel.....
He deserved a whole lot better than that from those whom he thought of as friends and family.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
Drove all night and fell asleep doing it many times... often more than once in the same trip...
During our first year in rez the day we were to come back from "Christmas" break the worst ice storm in about a century hit the lower plains states so we (my, my sister, future bro in law and a couple of others) piled into the old Orange VW microbus (the one without heating and the rusted through floor boards) and set out on our way... "heck the engine's in the rear, we'll get good traction"...
I think we even left a day early (but the memory's not too clear on that)... it took us three or four hours to make it to the north side of Denton (about 30 miles) and we already had a coating of ice on the bus over an inch thick... we kept on going, I put cayenne pepper in my socks to try and keep my feet warm.. someone had to stay awake in the passenger seat in the front to spray the de-icer on the INSIDE and the outside of the windshield...
Somewhere north of Okla City one of the plugs blew out of the cylinder, so now we had no heat, less compression (power) and could smell the gas fumes... everyone but the person who was spraying the de-icer was laying down in the back bundled up in sleeping bags... so the plug blew out, so we just kept the engine running and stuck it in the ruts and kept on going... made it to Emporia (just before the deadline I think), the bus had over three inches of ice over the entire thing, we were all frozen and tired... but we made it... stoopeed!
Another time we were coming back from somewhere when I was jolted awake (of course I was driving) and we were driving across a field somewhere in the middle of Kansas (after having left the highway at some point before I woke up)...
Many times I'd awaken to see a bridge abutment fast approaching...
Cuz we had to be there... we had to...
Of course, I was pretty stupid wasn't I?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
sprawled out
of course, i agree. i did it, too. too many times.
but what about the fact that we're still here? does the fact that we survived all that mean anything? was it God, or just dumb luck, and lots of it?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Yeah Tom, I remember waking up a time or two to realise I was about to collide with a semi....
What about the times when we had friends that were in trouble...but we thought that with their *believing* everything would be all right.
Our tc was really depressed, his wife had left him, he started talking about needing someone to kick his bu tt....He even cried .... We of course prayed with him, believing that was all he needed to be ok...
We helped him get his house in order.....he started giving his stuff away.... there were several things in hindsight that I should have seen as warnings.....I knew down deep inside though that he was in trouble...I tried to get my spouse to call him daily, tried to tell the lc that our friend was really down and maybe needed him to call ..these were his corpes brothers for petes sake.......but of course was treated rather brusquly and made to understand that I needed to *believe* better for him...... you know .. my fear was negative believing.
Well the guy killed himself.... our believing had produced squat .... our buddy had needed a whole lot more from his friends and spiritual leader than prayer and our *believing*
Course it wasn`t the fault of the leader or his friends who heard his repeated cries for assistance....HE was the one who`s believing had failed.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Shellon
yes
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
sure sprawled out *we* ARE still here.... However I know several people personally who are not....good people following the same rules we did .... who didn`t make it.....so God just didn`t care quite as much about them? <_<
We are special because our believing worked and we lived ....while our friends/family who didn`t make it were some how sub standard in their walk and thus paid the penalty?
I think the whole concept is an insult to the people who tried just as hard as we did to adhere to twi teachings....who now in death are viewed as having somehow failed.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
bliss
"Thou shall NOT tempt the Lord thy God" comes to mind now.....................
We did read the bible didn't we? I am so guilty of this insanity. :blink:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
A la prochaine
Keith,
BINGO!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
outandabout
If we're not supposed to use our "five senses", why did God give them to us?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Bliss, that was taught in twi as well.
I remember hearing it... like folks who think they have protection from a speeding ticket going 100 mph on the highway as long as they're "believing". No go. twi taught that that was tempting God and not covered by believing.
All such acts would only be covered if one had revelation to do so... something unlikely unless extraordinary circumstances.
Remember Athletes, reckless and hilarious devil spirits? same deal. tempting God....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.