That's funny. I believe I left in 01' and part of the little "reproof session" I bowed out of had to do with me not ABSing in recent weeks. Old habits die hard I guess.
Not dead yet.
According to Matthew Harmon, BC of Orlando in the last year of WC full time and the first year of WC back on the field:
"Don't make me do your dirty work!! I have to spend MY money, MY gas and MY time to buy a money order for the cash you losers put in the horn. At least do me the courtesy of getting a money order for your abundant sharing. It's really selfish and disrespectful when someone constantly puts cash in the horn. "
This is really inexcusable. However, I must say that many of us during this time were just zealously parroting what we heard from LCM or other leadership. Doesn't make it right, but we thought we had our hearts in the right place. I know I have regrets from this time.
Tom S.: I will be happy to post the article, I will get to work on it today, soon as the boy is off to school and I finish the dishes :-)
qt
That would be wonderful QT... whenever you've got the time... thanks! ...and thanks to all for keeping this discussion going!
What I'm getting so far is at times there was pressure, at times there was intimidation... so that it was"understood" that you needed to give in excess of 10% "or else"... sometimes that meant no class, sometimes that meant God would "abandon" you...
And if I'm hearing this correctly, people were told 12%, 15% etc. but a specific number was never put in writing or on tape? Which gets me to thinking that somehow that had to be communicated to the leadership in the field maybe via tape, letter, etc...
Also (Bullinger) it would be logical to follow the playing/reading of one of the "rants" (when motivation was immediate and high) with a verbal declaration of "X" percentage is what you should be giving...
Tom, QT posted the article today. :) It's down just a wee bit on the list.
15% was mentioned on at least one STS tape, but I can't remember which one off the top of my head. I know that craiggers said that should be the minimum for someone in the grace administration and that we should endeavor to give everything beyond what's required to live on a "need basis". Pay your rent, buy your groceries and then send the rest to us.
Now you'd think, wouldn't you, that if people come in (join) and they have professional skills (that have good earning potential) TWI would encourage people to stick with those skills. Then those people would earn big bucks and could ABS more.
But no, TWI belittle the skills base as "worldly" and generally sneer at professional qualifications except perhaps as Way Builders (and I'm not looking to pick a fight with any of them!). Then when the income of the person drops so much they say you aren't believing God enough... How preposterous is that?
Perhaps people believed God and therefore they acquired those skills - to help and bless? But no, if not taught by TWI such skills are obviously of no value.
I'm posting from North Carolina until Friday evening...but...I errr.... might just have that article on my hard drive. And If I were, hypothetically, to receive a PM requesting it, I might just hypothetically e-mail it.
But it *is* copyright protected.... ;)
So, errr, lemme know.
qt - away from home, but never without the faithful laptop
I'm not sure of the exact date but I think it was in 1987...
...The twig coordintors were informed that from now on we were to keep track of who was "FAITHFUL" in our twigs and who wasn't....the criteria for "FAITHFULNESS" was twig attendance and ABS. We were to report on this weekly (included in the blue form) and send the info to hdqrts...this was a mandate from king okie himself.
At first, I argued with our 8th corps, ordained branch leader over this issue...When I asked him WHO gave the increase, he said "God"...I then announced that I would be abundantly sharing anonymously from now on...of course, that didn't fly....I then announced that I refused to accept money from anyone on twi's behalf...THIS was the issue that caused me to resign from twi and walk away.
10% buys you protection...15% buys you revelation. It was spiritual extortion and blackmail.
The bible says to bring your tithe to a Levitical priest...it was Mosaic law and not directed towards Christians.
I always hated ABSing by check. Aren't we supposed to give so quietly that the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing? God keeps account not the TC.
God sees the heart with which the 10%, 15% or whatever is given, too. God loves a cheerful giver, but He rewards the cheerful giving not the amount.
The 15% was strongly suggested even in the last half of the 70's. StrangeTom I wish I had exact names and dates, but this was long before the Okie took the throne. We burned most of the SNS teaching tapes and Way rags for Uncle Harry day, so I can't help you there.
The Hobbs Act defines "extortion" as "the obtaining of property from another, with his consent, induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right." 18 U.S.C. S 1951(b)(2).
TWI obtained money from us with our concent using the threat of fear, fear that God's protection wouldn't cover us if we didn't give $$$ to "The Ministry".
TWI also obtained money from us with our concent "under color of official right".... which is them saying they had the God given official right to collect and use our ABS for their purposes.
I believe that TWI extorted our ABS from us, and that they could probably be sued by class action for it under the Hobbs Act.
The Hobbs Act defines "extortion" as "the obtaining of property from another, with his consent, induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right." 18 U.S.C. S 1951(b)(2).
TWI obtained money from us with our concent using the threat of fear, fear that God's protection wouldn't cover us if we didn't give $$$ to "The Ministry".
TWI also obtained money from us with our concent "under color of official right".... which is them saying they had the God given official right to collect and use our ABS for their purposes.
I believe that TWI extorted our ABS from us, and that they could probably be sued by class action for it under the Hobbs Act.
What does everyone else think?
Wonder what the statute of limitations is on such an offense.
Wonder what the statute of limitations is on such an offense.
Shortie, I don't think a Statute of Limitations would apply since TWI continues to extort money from its followers at the present. In Class Action, all present and past "extortees" should be included.
I believe that TWI extorted our ABS from us, and that they could probably be sued by class action for it under the Hobbs Act.
What does everyone else think?
It probably couldn't succeed under the First Amendment, at least.
First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...
If twi teaches as part of their religious doctrine, that God's hand of protection and blessing is taken away from a person for failure to tithe, then that teaching would be considered a protected form of speech and religion under the First Amendment.
Then after that, one would have to prove twi's "intent" to cause harm, a very hard thing to prove.
It probably couldn't succeed under the First Amendment, at least.
First Amendment:
If twi teaches as part of their religious doctrine, that God's hand of protection and blessing is taken away from a person for failure to tithe, then that teaching would be considered a protected form of speech and religion under the First Amendment.
Then after that, one would have to prove twi's "intent" to cause harm, a very hard thing to prove.
What if TWI also taught that THEY WEREN'T A RELIGION???
If someone managed to file such a suit, it wouldn't make it to trial. It would be thrown out for the same reasons the Peeler suit was. The courts are not going to consider doctrinal matters.
Groucho do you (or anyone else) have anything like that from TWI on tape, in written form, etc? I'd love to be able to nail that one down...
thanks again!
I threw all my twi teachings into the trash can years ago...I'm sure someone here must have a tape with that essence on it...it was a "reoccurring theme"...
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oldiesman
I will dig them out... I think some were quite good.
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shortfuse
Not dead yet.
This is really inexcusable. However, I must say that many of us during this time were just zealously parroting what we heard from LCM or other leadership. Doesn't make it right, but we thought we had our hearts in the right place. I know I have regrets from this time.
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Tom Strange
That would be wonderful QT... whenever you've got the time... thanks! ...and thanks to all for keeping this discussion going!
What I'm getting so far is at times there was pressure, at times there was intimidation... so that it was"understood" that you needed to give in excess of 10% "or else"... sometimes that meant no class, sometimes that meant God would "abandon" you...
And if I'm hearing this correctly, people were told 12%, 15% etc. but a specific number was never put in writing or on tape? Which gets me to thinking that somehow that had to be communicated to the leadership in the field maybe via tape, letter, etc...
Also (Bullinger) it would be logical to follow the playing/reading of one of the "rants" (when motivation was immediate and high) with a verbal declaration of "X" percentage is what you should be giving...
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Belle
Tom, QT posted the article today. :) It's down just a wee bit on the list.
15% was mentioned on at least one STS tape, but I can't remember which one off the top of my head. I know that craiggers said that should be the minimum for someone in the grace administration and that we should endeavor to give everything beyond what's required to live on a "need basis". Pay your rent, buy your groceries and then send the rest to us.
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Tom Strange
oops! I just saw that Belle... thanks QT! you're the beast!
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Raf
According to the Bible, Abraham tithed once, and not of his income, and was called the friend of God.
Well, shucks, I tithed once too. Guess I'm covered.
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Tom Strange
since the article was removed... could we combine the threads?
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Tom Strange
Raf... you're a friend of Strange!
Mods: thanks be to you!
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Twinky
Belle, I like it!!
Now you'd think, wouldn't you, that if people come in (join) and they have professional skills (that have good earning potential) TWI would encourage people to stick with those skills. Then those people would earn big bucks and could ABS more.
But no, TWI belittle the skills base as "worldly" and generally sneer at professional qualifications except perhaps as Way Builders (and I'm not looking to pick a fight with any of them!). Then when the income of the person drops so much they say you aren't believing God enough... How preposterous is that?
Perhaps people believed God and therefore they acquired those skills - to help and bless? But no, if not taught by TWI such skills are obviously of no value.
Hello Dr and Mrs Peeler. You are not alone.
Edited by TwinkyLink to comment
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QuietThinker
The Moderator is completely correct, of course.
I'm posting from North Carolina until Friday evening...but...I errr.... might just have that article on my hard drive. And If I were, hypothetically, to receive a PM requesting it, I might just hypothetically e-mail it.
But it *is* copyright protected.... ;)
So, errr, lemme know.
qt - away from home, but never without the faithful laptop
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GrouchoMarxJr
I'm not sure of the exact date but I think it was in 1987...
...The twig coordintors were informed that from now on we were to keep track of who was "FAITHFUL" in our twigs and who wasn't....the criteria for "FAITHFULNESS" was twig attendance and ABS. We were to report on this weekly (included in the blue form) and send the info to hdqrts...this was a mandate from king okie himself.
At first, I argued with our 8th corps, ordained branch leader over this issue...When I asked him WHO gave the increase, he said "God"...I then announced that I would be abundantly sharing anonymously from now on...of course, that didn't fly....I then announced that I refused to accept money from anyone on twi's behalf...THIS was the issue that caused me to resign from twi and walk away.
10% buys you protection...15% buys you revelation. It was spiritual extortion and blackmail.
The bible says to bring your tithe to a Levitical priest...it was Mosaic law and not directed towards Christians.
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Twinky
I always hated ABSing by check. Aren't we supposed to give so quietly that the right hand doesn't know what the left is doing? God keeps account not the TC.
God sees the heart with which the 10%, 15% or whatever is given, too. God loves a cheerful giver, but He rewards the cheerful giving not the amount.
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tonto
The 15% was strongly suggested even in the last half of the 70's. StrangeTom I wish I had exact names and dates, but this was long before the Okie took the throne. We burned most of the SNS teaching tapes and Way rags for Uncle Harry day, so I can't help you there.
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nolongerlurking
The Hobbs Act defines "extortion" as "the obtaining of property from another, with his consent, induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right." 18 U.S.C. S 1951(b)(2).
TWI obtained money from us with our concent using the threat of fear, fear that God's protection wouldn't cover us if we didn't give $$$ to "The Ministry".
TWI also obtained money from us with our concent "under color of official right".... which is them saying they had the God given official right to collect and use our ABS for their purposes.
I believe that TWI extorted our ABS from us, and that they could probably be sued by class action for it under the Hobbs Act.
What does everyone else think?
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shortfuse
Wonder what the statute of limitations is on such an offense.
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nolongerlurking
Shortie, I don't think a Statute of Limitations would apply since TWI continues to extort money from its followers at the present. In Class Action, all present and past "extortees" should be included.
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oldiesman
It probably couldn't succeed under the First Amendment, at least.
First Amendment:
If twi teaches as part of their religious doctrine, that God's hand of protection and blessing is taken away from a person for failure to tithe, then that teaching would be considered a protected form of speech and religion under the First Amendment.
Then after that, one would have to prove twi's "intent" to cause harm, a very hard thing to prove.
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Tom Strange
Again... my thanks to you all so far...
Groucho do you (or anyone else) have anything like that from TWI on tape, in written form, etc? I'd love to be able to nail that one down...
thanks again!
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Tom Strange
What if TWI also taught that THEY WEREN'T A RELIGION???
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oldiesman
The IRS lost their case and twi proved they were.
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Tom Strange
b-b-b-but that whole time they were taking my money that were telling me they weren't! :)
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oldiesman
You'd lose. Save your money.
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LG
If someone managed to file such a suit, it wouldn't make it to trial. It would be thrown out for the same reasons the Peeler suit was. The courts are not going to consider doctrinal matters.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I threw all my twi teachings into the trash can years ago...I'm sure someone here must have a tape with that essence on it...it was a "reoccurring theme"...
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