I only remember what Shortfuse said about Adv Class Students had to be faithfully giving. I don't know how they determined that. I never had anyone looking at my paycheck and saying "You should be giving $___________ in order to be in God's graces." However, I would not be surprised if that did happen to someone since Fellowship coords were looking at people's budgets during this time frame. I don't every remember anyone being denied do go anywhere for not sharing enough. People who had mortgages couldn't attend Adv Class grad meetings, specials, or even become an Adv Class grad if they weren't already. There were so many Adv Classes in the 90s that there were probably several who got denied because they had a mortgage.
It is now, and at the back of the WAP syllabus is the "Tithe doth still abide" article, as an appendix.
They have always had to be especially careful about demanding money, because that does cross the line, so to speak, between extortion and giving, but when I was involved right up until the day I left there was harping about the money.
I was told to Abundantly Share (not tithe) on my Alimony/Child Support which isn't enough to p*** out a paper-fire...and the "blessings would open up for me."
Erm...yeah...and my kids eat what, exactly?
Anyway, I have that article, if anyone is interested...
QT
P.S. "IF you don't abundantly share, you will never receive the full effulgence of God's Blessing."
I believe that, in translation, is, "Give, or else."
LDS tithe 10%. But I have noticed several huge differences in the way the church does it and the way TWi does it.
1. it is voluntary, yes the church teaches we should do it, yes it is necessary of you want a temple recommend (and if you don't tithe the temple is probably not something you are interested in at this time) but no one says you have too.
2. the tithe is private, you put it in a little envelope and privately hand it to the bishop or mail it in. no one but you and the bishop and the clerk know what you tithe
3 the entire tithe goes to SLC in return the chapels, furnishings, utilities are all paid for. NONE of it is held back for personal use by the bishop (who like every other local leader or calling holder is an unpaid volunteer)
Vastly different from my stint in TWI went the HOP was conspicuous on the table and you were "shamed" into giving, where the weaker of the spouses was encouraged to raid the savings and checking accounts of the family and give the monies to the Limb without notifying their spouse -so when the checks for rent etc started bouncing all over town there were nasty surprises--but of course that was to the "mushroom" spouses lack of believing
Before you go on mindlessly defending required abundant sharing let me elucidate you. Fellow Laborers of Ohio was a training program. We were required to abundantly share. That's not the problem. I knew that when I signed up. The problem was a lack of trust on the part of donkeybutt, who did not believe me when I told him I was donating 15%. He had to have a check in his hands to prove to him that I was indeed giving ABS. And in fact, keeping track of ABS per person is wrong as far as I can tell. "Let not your right hand know what your left hand is doing."
If TWI was suppposed to believe God for abundance, why did they have to require anyone to give anything?
As a side note, there was an HFC training video sent to the field circa 1999 that corrected this practice of prying into people's finances. It was said at the time that people were going to far demanding earnings info and exact debt figures. If people wanted help, we were to give it, but if they didn't ask don't go kicking the door in. I think HQ wanted to distances themselves from this behavior as if to say, "you didn't learn that from us." In reality, that kind of prying, overbaring, meddling "oversight" was learned precisely from headquarters, starting with the board of trustees.
When I first got involved in '93, I remember hearing two men discussing whether they were giving off their net or gross incomes.
Here are excerpts from some HQ letters that I have. They are in no particular order, but if anyone wants a copy of them just let me know.
********************
October 1995 - LCM
"This last ministry year has certainly been eventful in terms of God's Call to Abundance. We have especially seen His abundance to us in our growth in knowledge and understanding of His wonderful Word and in the guidance He's given us concerning where to build the ministry in the days ahead, including the new classes on WAP that will be available to our standing PFAL grads in the months ahead....... Changed WOW to Disciples of the Way.... Word Over the World Defined (STS 1803, July 16) and "23rd WC Graduation" (STS 1805, July 30) where I set for the ministry the new light and direction on the Cops program....
I love you all abundantly and thank God for the physical and financial abundance reaped i the lives of our people as they have heeded God's clarion call to get out of debt, get in control of their lives and finances, and allow Him to bless them in ways they never dreamed of.
********************
March/April 1995 - Howard Allen
The year for our theme of God's Call to Abundance is almost over. Our believing for you is that when the theme is over, you will continue to live in God's abundance.
When God gave His only begotten son, he gave us his abundance. It's everlasgint if we choose to enjoy it, and it doesn't cost us near what it cost God; so live it each day and share it with others.
March/April 1994 issue of the way mag.....about the 67 acres we purchased with your abundance .... Pond project....gravel parking area north of Founders Hall.....commuter parking area for the Rock of Ages.... The remaining land is being leveled and will be grassed in for future expansion.
We want to thank you for the great year we have had and for living God's Word and giving so that the Word can move all over the world. We have received a number of great letters from you about how the teachings on finances have helped you and your families. The word is sure true and it works when we apply it in our walks.
********************
May 1995 - ??
Rock of Ages 1994 initiated the dynamic teachings on our current theme of God's Call to Abundance. Around the world believers ahve responded to the timeliness of this word. God's abundance has been displayed in believers' lives by an increased resolve to speak the word boldly, confront evil and live debt-free. The abundance of God's word declared at SNS and the way rag continues to illustrate God's blessing to our lives. A further testimony of God's abundance upon our ministry is the videotapping of the new foundational and intermediate classes....
"If there was a requirement to keep on tithing in order to take some classes in the '90's, then let's use that qualifier and be accurate."
I left in the fall of 2000. At that time, in order to take the FOUNDATIONAL class, a person had to be faithfully attending fellowship and had to be faithfully abundantly sharing.
Of course by then, we were no longer witnessing to pretty much anyone and everyone either - people had to at least appear to meet up to certain (not entirely specified) standards, before we witnessed to them. I remember once thinking perhaps we should check a person's teeth before we witnessed - course by that point I didn't really want to witness or bring anyone to that vipers nest anyway.
Watered Garden I do remember the check only requirement but I can't for the life of me remember why they said it was required. I always had to buy money orders since I never really had enough money to open a checking account. And then, of course, there was the issue of requesting special dispensation to run a personal errand such as go to the bank or post office. "Thou shalt weed thine swiss chard lest the mighty thistles of satan consume thine crop" Oh well, I'm making a coffee and twinkie run to the WAYSIDE TRUCK STOP,want anything?
According to Matthew Harmon, BC of Orlando in the last year of WC full time and the first year of WC back on the field:
"Don't make me do your dirty work!! I have to spend MY money, MY gas and MY time to buy a money order for the cash you losers put in the horn. At least do me the courtesy of getting a money order for your abundant sharing. It's really selfish and disrespectful when someone constantly puts cash in the horn. "
As a side note, there was an HFC training video sent to the field circa 1999 that corrected this practice of prying into people's finances.
That's funny. I believe I left in 01' and part of the little "reproof session" I bowed out of had to do with me not ABSing in recent weeks. Old habits die hard I guess.
According to Matthew Harmon, BC of Orlando in the last year of WC full time and the first year of WC back on the field:
"Don't make me do your dirty work!! I have to spend MY money, MY gas and MY time to buy a money order for the cash you losers put in the horn. At least do me the courtesy of getting a money order for your abundant sharing. It's really selfish and disrespectful when someone constantly puts cash in the horn. "
We heard similar things in our area in the late 90's
I'd like to get White Dove's input on this...
Didn't vp teach in piffle that tithing was the only law that carried over into the grace admin.?
He taught that since tithing pre-dated the Law administration, it was not affected by the Law being eliminated in the Grace administration.
As a side note, there was an HFC training video sent to the field circa 1999 that corrected this practice of prying into people's finances. It was said at the time that people were going to far demanding earnings info and exact debt figures. If people wanted help, we were to give it, but if they didn't ask don't go kicking the door in. I think HQ wanted to distances themselves from this behavior as if to say, "you didn't learn that from us." In reality, that kind of prying, overbaring, meddling "oversight" was learned precisely from headquarters, starting with the board of trustees.
I recall that this video went out, and I also recall being told about it by our "leadership", but didn't notice any actual difference in how things were carried out
Um, there was a witnessing directive to witness to people with jobs, cars and all their teeth.
We left right before we were supposed to do a finacial meeting with out HFC, with all our records, budget book etc. We were still in debt after years of teaching on being debt free. Well, rack up major med bills, and you might be making some payments for a few years. Its better than bankruptcy or getting sued!.
It is now, and at the back of the WAP syllabus is the "Tithe doth still abide" article, as an appendix.
Anyway, I have that article, if anyone is interested...
Thank you QT. Is it an article that you could post?
If any of you others have "tithe specific" literature or information, especially regarding the percentages "required" or "suggested" it would be great if you could post them (similar to how Belle posted).
quote: do you have any recollection or documentation as to the when, the why, the how tithing/giving became law? ...and what percentages were dictated?
I remember LCM saying in the early 80s "Under law God called it robbery when people didn't tithe (referring to Malachi), so under grace it must be grand larceny." IMO that's coersion, not love.
Then in 1995 LCM was ranting on about how only 13% of PFAL grads from the previous year renewed their way mag subscriptions. He fumed how they probably were willing to pay for HBO, Cinemax, etc. but not for God's word.
It wasn't long after that that I ceased listening to LCM. Most leadership I was around in TWI felt that if people were genuinely blessed, they would want to give, which made it their (leadership's) responsibility to do what they could to get their people genuinely blessed. No need to coerce with that attitude.
I still ABS and people still put cash in the horn and it's not a big deal.
It wasn't long after that that I ceased listening to LCM. Most leadership I was around in TWI felt that if people were genuinely blessed, they would want to give, which made it their (leadership's) responsibility to do what they could to get their people genuinely blessed. No need to coerce with that attitude.
I still ABS and people still put cash in the horn and it's not a big deal.
That's refreshing johniam... but that's not TWI is it? I remember those early days when the thought was that if folks weren't abundant sharing then they probably weren't abundantly blessed... like your guys... and our responsibility was to figure out how to help them get abundantly blessed, not put a spiritual gun to their head and demand...
Um, there was a witnessing directive to witness to people with jobs, cars and all their teeth.
OMG, that's rich!
J.
As I recall, the "teeth" directive was another example of Martindale saying something that he thought was humorous and it being taken as dead serious by the "leadership" (another example being when he referred to an aspect of Corps training as the WC Field program)
He was telling us that it was a waste of time witnessing to the poor, i.e. those without cars and jobs, who couldn't get to classes or fellowship on their own anyway, and certainly couldn't afford to pay for anything. The reference to teeth was a lame attempt at being funny. The next thing you know it was being taken literally.
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oldiesman
I know that. But let's be accurate with our terminology, ok? A requirement is a requirement.
If there was a requirement to keep on tithing in order to take some classes in the '90's, then let's use that qualifier and be accurate.
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Nottawayfer
Tom,
I only remember what Shortfuse said about Adv Class Students had to be faithfully giving. I don't know how they determined that. I never had anyone looking at my paycheck and saying "You should be giving $___________ in order to be in God's graces." However, I would not be surprised if that did happen to someone since Fellowship coords were looking at people's budgets during this time frame. I don't every remember anyone being denied do go anywhere for not sharing enough. People who had mortgages couldn't attend Adv Class grad meetings, specials, or even become an Adv Class grad if they weren't already. There were so many Adv Classes in the 90s that there were probably several who got denied because they had a mortgage.
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QuietThinker
It is now, and at the back of the WAP syllabus is the "Tithe doth still abide" article, as an appendix.
They have always had to be especially careful about demanding money, because that does cross the line, so to speak, between extortion and giving, but when I was involved right up until the day I left there was harping about the money.
I was told to Abundantly Share (not tithe) on my Alimony/Child Support which isn't enough to p*** out a paper-fire...and the "blessings would open up for me."
Erm...yeah...and my kids eat what, exactly?
Anyway, I have that article, if anyone is interested...
QT
P.S. "IF you don't abundantly share, you will never receive the full effulgence of God's Blessing."
I believe that, in translation, is, "Give, or else."
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templelady
LDS tithe 10%. But I have noticed several huge differences in the way the church does it and the way TWi does it.
1. it is voluntary, yes the church teaches we should do it, yes it is necessary of you want a temple recommend (and if you don't tithe the temple is probably not something you are interested in at this time) but no one says you have too.
2. the tithe is private, you put it in a little envelope and privately hand it to the bishop or mail it in. no one but you and the bishop and the clerk know what you tithe
3 the entire tithe goes to SLC in return the chapels, furnishings, utilities are all paid for. NONE of it is held back for personal use by the bishop (who like every other local leader or calling holder is an unpaid volunteer)
Vastly different from my stint in TWI went the HOP was conspicuous on the table and you were "shamed" into giving, where the weaker of the spouses was encouraged to raid the savings and checking accounts of the family and give the monies to the Limb without notifying their spouse -so when the checks for rent etc started bouncing all over town there were nasty surprises--but of course that was to the "mushroom" spouses lack of believing
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Watered Garden
OM,
Before you go on mindlessly defending required abundant sharing let me elucidate you. Fellow Laborers of Ohio was a training program. We were required to abundantly share. That's not the problem. I knew that when I signed up. The problem was a lack of trust on the part of donkeybutt, who did not believe me when I told him I was donating 15%. He had to have a check in his hands to prove to him that I was indeed giving ABS. And in fact, keeping track of ABS per person is wrong as far as I can tell. "Let not your right hand know what your left hand is doing."
If TWI was suppposed to believe God for abundance, why did they have to require anyone to give anything?
Huh?
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shortfuse
As a side note, there was an HFC training video sent to the field circa 1999 that corrected this practice of prying into people's finances. It was said at the time that people were going to far demanding earnings info and exact debt figures. If people wanted help, we were to give it, but if they didn't ask don't go kicking the door in. I think HQ wanted to distances themselves from this behavior as if to say, "you didn't learn that from us." In reality, that kind of prying, overbaring, meddling "oversight" was learned precisely from headquarters, starting with the board of trustees.
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oldiesman
Are you asking me, huh? :D
I don't know, perhaps it was a way of finding out where one's commitment was at? I don't condone it.
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Belle
When I first got involved in '93, I remember hearing two men discussing whether they were giving off their net or gross incomes.
Here are excerpts from some HQ letters that I have. They are in no particular order, but if anyone wants a copy of them just let me know.
********************
October 1995 - LCM
"This last ministry year has certainly been eventful in terms of God's Call to Abundance. We have especially seen His abundance to us in our growth in knowledge and understanding of His wonderful Word and in the guidance He's given us concerning where to build the ministry in the days ahead, including the new classes on WAP that will be available to our standing PFAL grads in the months ahead....... Changed WOW to Disciples of the Way.... Word Over the World Defined (STS 1803, July 16) and "23rd WC Graduation" (STS 1805, July 30) where I set for the ministry the new light and direction on the Cops program....
I love you all abundantly and thank God for the physical and financial abundance reaped i the lives of our people as they have heeded God's clarion call to get out of debt, get in control of their lives and finances, and allow Him to bless them in ways they never dreamed of.
********************
March/April 1995 - Howard Allen
The year for our theme of God's Call to Abundance is almost over. Our believing for you is that when the theme is over, you will continue to live in God's abundance.
When God gave His only begotten son, he gave us his abundance. It's everlasgint if we choose to enjoy it, and it doesn't cost us near what it cost God; so live it each day and share it with others.
March/April 1994 issue of the way mag.....about the 67 acres we purchased with your abundance .... Pond project....gravel parking area north of Founders Hall.....commuter parking area for the Rock of Ages.... The remaining land is being leveled and will be grassed in for future expansion.
We want to thank you for the great year we have had and for living God's Word and giving so that the Word can move all over the world. We have received a number of great letters from you about how the teachings on finances have helped you and your families. The word is sure true and it works when we apply it in our walks.
********************
May 1995 - ??
Rock of Ages 1994 initiated the dynamic teachings on our current theme of God's Call to Abundance. Around the world believers ahve responded to the timeliness of this word. God's abundance has been displayed in believers' lives by an increased resolve to speak the word boldly, confront evil and live debt-free. The abundance of God's word declared at SNS and the way rag continues to illustrate God's blessing to our lives. A further testimony of God's abundance upon our ministry is the videotapping of the new foundational and intermediate classes....
********************
I have more, but I have to go. :)
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Abigail
"If there was a requirement to keep on tithing in order to take some classes in the '90's, then let's use that qualifier and be accurate."
I left in the fall of 2000. At that time, in order to take the FOUNDATIONAL class, a person had to be faithfully attending fellowship and had to be faithfully abundantly sharing.
Of course by then, we were no longer witnessing to pretty much anyone and everyone either - people had to at least appear to meet up to certain (not entirely specified) standards, before we witnessed to them. I remember once thinking perhaps we should check a person's teeth before we witnessed - course by that point I didn't really want to witness or bring anyone to that vipers nest anyway.
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waysider
Watered Garden I do remember the check only requirement but I can't for the life of me remember why they said it was required. I always had to buy money orders since I never really had enough money to open a checking account. And then, of course, there was the issue of requesting special dispensation to run a personal errand such as go to the bank or post office. "Thou shalt weed thine swiss chard lest the mighty thistles of satan consume thine crop" Oh well, I'm making a coffee and twinkie run to the WAYSIDE TRUCK STOP,want anything?
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CoolWaters
I'd like to get White Dove's input on this...
Didn't vp teach in piffle that tithing was the only law that carried over into the grace admin.?
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watersedge
who has the right to dictate what anyone gives?
giving of a gift is a freewill choice that has no string tied to it
demands placed on freewill giving are a form of extortion
no matter how subtle the demand my be
tying a statement such as "god won't give you abindance unless you....."
is forced giving and that legally negates the freewill choice of a gift
no organization has the right to force giving money under the threat
of retribution or lack of services rendered (ie if you don't give xyz then
you won't get these benifits)
that can be considered strong arm robbery in the most extreme cases
at the least it is cohersion
seems to me the way crossed a line in the sand
and there is enough written proof that it could produce a class-action
law suit
just from my personal view, i came into this world with no wallet
strapped to my naked hiney
won't take one with me when i leave
what i do in between life and death is up to me
and that includes who i give to and what i give
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Nottawayfer
The check only requirement was to keep them from getting bounced checks for the Advanced Class tuition.
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Belle
According to Matthew Harmon, BC of Orlando in the last year of WC full time and the first year of WC back on the field:
"Don't make me do your dirty work!! I have to spend MY money, MY gas and MY time to buy a money order for the cash you losers put in the horn. At least do me the courtesy of getting a money order for your abundant sharing. It's really selfish and disrespectful when someone constantly puts cash in the horn. "
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lindyhopper
Boy Belle, that guy MH sounds like a class act.
That's funny. I believe I left in 01' and part of the little "reproof session" I bowed out of had to do with me not ABSing in recent weeks. Old habits die hard I guess.
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Oakspear
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Bramble
Um, there was a witnessing directive to witness to people with jobs, cars and all their teeth.
We left right before we were supposed to do a finacial meeting with out HFC, with all our records, budget book etc. We were still in debt after years of teaching on being debt free. Well, rack up major med bills, and you might be making some payments for a few years. Its better than bankruptcy or getting sued!.
Our finances are healthy now!
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mstar1
:blink: :blink: :blink:
:blink:
Someone with this type of spiritual perception was actually in a leadership position?
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jardinero
Um, there was a witnessing directive to witness to people with jobs, cars and all their teeth.
OMG, that's rich!
J.
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Tom Strange
Thank you QT. Is it an article that you could post?
If any of you others have "tithe specific" literature or information, especially regarding the percentages "required" or "suggested" it would be great if you could post them (similar to how Belle posted).
Thank you all...
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johniam
quote: do you have any recollection or documentation as to the when, the why, the how tithing/giving became law? ...and what percentages were dictated?
I remember LCM saying in the early 80s "Under law God called it robbery when people didn't tithe (referring to Malachi), so under grace it must be grand larceny." IMO that's coersion, not love.
Then in 1995 LCM was ranting on about how only 13% of PFAL grads from the previous year renewed their way mag subscriptions. He fumed how they probably were willing to pay for HBO, Cinemax, etc. but not for God's word.
It wasn't long after that that I ceased listening to LCM. Most leadership I was around in TWI felt that if people were genuinely blessed, they would want to give, which made it their (leadership's) responsibility to do what they could to get their people genuinely blessed. No need to coerce with that attitude.
I still ABS and people still put cash in the horn and it's not a big deal.
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Tom Strange
That's refreshing johniam... but that's not TWI is it? I remember those early days when the thought was that if folks weren't abundant sharing then they probably weren't abundantly blessed... like your guys... and our responsibility was to figure out how to help them get abundantly blessed, not put a spiritual gun to their head and demand...
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Oakspear
He was telling us that it was a waste of time witnessing to the poor, i.e. those without cars and jobs, who couldn't get to classes or fellowship on their own anyway, and certainly couldn't afford to pay for anything. The reference to teeth was a lame attempt at being funny. The next thing you know it was being taken literally.
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QuietThinker
Tom S.: I will be happy to post the article, I will get to work on it today, soon as the boy is off to school and I finish the dishes :-)
qt
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