I can't think of specific verses used. But they came up with "We are in the grace administration, why would we give less when God has given us so much more?" This was specifically hammered by LCM around January 1996. There was a major snow storm, and they cancelled the STS that Sunday. But he decided to teach anyway. The tape made was a required listening for everyone. We had a Branch meeting to listen to it, and then we were all asked what our thougths were on it. Of course nobody was going to reject what the MOG said for fear of being M&A. LCM was pretty riled up and spewing ferociously about it. He must have been ticked off that the money received was low. Right after that is when they sold all of the extra properties around HQ. His spewing was about 6 or 8 months after he made the edict that the Corps would be fulltime.
Thanks WN, that's a good start... 1996, I was thinking it was creeping in back in the 80's but maybe it wasn't 'official'... does anyone recall the tape numbers, or articles in the Way Rag? ...letters from HQ?
Was that the same one where he said a person who comes to a fellowship should be so excited, so blessed that that first time that soul would want to give 10%, then after that keep increasing on a regular basis, until while taking the class for the first time (PFAL) would naturally give 15% or so?
He went on and on at a great rate. I think the squeeze was on, with WC being full time and so on. Our BL and his little wife were always talking about eating out at some Mexican restaurant or other, but that night they snivelled and whined about what would they do, what would they do, if their salaries were cut because we underlings were not believing big enough to give a truckload of money to TWI. The little wife sniffed, "I don't have to have nice things to put in my hair. I don't have to have nice things to put on my face." I can live without those things and we can eat Raman noodles all the time."
I thought about my early years of marriage, (not to mention the WOW field), when I bought toiletries at the drugstore and thought nothing of it. I always had enough. Not because of the dollars and cents I donated to TWI, but because God loves me - and I'm a smart shopper!
That said, we do give to our little church, because we love God and we love our little church, and because we want to. The day we're told we have to, we'll say, "Hasta La Vista!"
And of course, nasty person that I am, when they were whining about Raman noodles and so on, I thought, "Gee," I thought all you wonderful men and women of God who were WC grads were volunteers!"
Over on John Juedes site there's a page called The bondage of the law of tithing (you may wish to read it)... there's a couple of passages that are kind of what I'm looking for:
TWI says, "give- OR ELSE!" Or else-- "God won't spit in your direction," or else-- "you'll lose everything," etc. Many feel, "I'm scared. I'm afraid I will lose everything if I don't give enough." It's as though TWI's followers all picture God as a bully with a big stick, just waiting for us to give a penny less than our quota, then he'll pound us. This is NOT God's way!
TWI also says, "Give-- THEN!" IF you give, THEN God will pay you back with "results" - mainly more prosperity. They picture God with a backscratcher- you pay him, then he'll pay you back. He certainly won't actually give you something out of his kindness and generosity-- he only pays back IF you pay up first.
Both "Give THEN," and "give OR ELSE" are the LAW-- trying to pound people into submission. (snip)
We've all heard these things before... does anyone have any documentation for them? ...and then of course for the percentages that were associated with these rants?
And since it will probably be brought up that Juedes is a 'spin doctor' here's his spin on giving:
Focusing on meeting requirements of "laws," as TWI does, only brings spiritual bondage, frustration and heartache. Freedom comes only from the Gospel, God's grace, unconditional love, and boundless mercy, which we find in Jesus Christ Himself. We love because He first loved us. We give because He first gave, still gives, and always will give us far more than we can ask or imagine.
That's a spin I can get on board with... and that's very, very close to the way "giving" was presented to me by the special folks who were the WOWs who first witnessed to and taught me...
Along the way something got twisted... when? how? why?
OM... you've been around a long time... do you have any recollection or documentation as to the when, the why, the how tithing/giving became law? ...and what percentages were dictated?
I think the concept was first discussed in PFAL and Christians Should be Prosperous.
As far as it becoming law and "required", I haven't a clue.
I was under the impression that giving money in twi wasn't ever "required", but I could be wrong as I wasn't around past 1991.
I never heard of anyone actually getting booted out for not throwing money in the horn of plenty, which case may indicate it being an actual "requirement".
The "God won't spit in your direction" line by LCM was on the teaching tape that Wayfer Not referred to. Somewhere in that same time frame it was also decided that people who weren't abundantly sharing could not participate in classes - even the foundational one.
I got involved in TWI in 1991. I don't remember it being directly taught, but I do remember it being clearly understood that we were supposed to give something above the tithe. I think the 15% number came out around the same time as LCM's tape.
Anything over 10% was considered abundantly sharing, but we were instructed that to get the real blessings from God we had to plurality give - which meant giving everything above and beyond your absolute need. In other words - do you really need to save for retirement? Do you really need to buy new clothing or could you go out and buy stuff from Sally? Do you really need that candy bar or pack of gum? If you were still considering those things as needs, then you weren't plurality giving.
IMO, none of it is biblical according to the new testament. The NT verses TWI used to back up their crap were taken out of context and twisted (gee - how surprising!). In Acts when Paul collected money, it was because there was a famine in Jerusalem and they were trying to help those who were starving. He did NOT keep money for himself. Paul EARNED his money be WORKING an HONEST JOB.
I left about '89 os so,and I don't recall any sort of a written edict or anything like that about the tithe....It seemed like the way I remember it taught was that 'abundant sharing' did not really start until after the tithe,or '10%' was given,before taxes,of course....The handbook most often used was "Christians Should be Prosperous"...But I don't recall it ever written as a requirement for way followers---more of a "this is what we believe"....
The tithe as practiced by the way was one of those things in my later years,I started becoming pretty uncertain about practicing and teaching...It was fine as an 18 year old WOW,when you only had yourself to look after in your commune style of living...But as the people in the ministry started getting older--having families, and looking for more stability in their lives,I know some of us started looking more seriously at the practice of tithing as taught by the way...The way also taught to share of your 'plurality'....Well.how do you define plurality?....Are savings a plurality?...For a house? Car? Edjimication?.....In practice,I usually gave about 12%(before taxes) to stifle any guilt trips I might have coming up later when I did have some disposable income...
My dad always asked me why I tithed...He'd say "you pay taxes---there's your tithe"....It took years before that started sinking in,even Biblically...In the Old Testament,tithing was basically used for many of the same purposes as our taxes are currently being used...However,in the O.T.,the government and the religion were virtually one and the same...Israel was a nation....they needed to have an army,government leaders,...they also had the widows and the poor to take care of...Those things are now for the most part paid for by our tax dollars...So why do we need the tithe today?....Especially so since the way frowned on giving $$$ to good works causes,like soup kitchens,missionary programs etc. ..."The work of the ministry" was where it was supposed to go to...I thought about it once and figured if everybody in the way tithed,then each twig leader that had more that 10 people in his twig could quit his job and live off of the tithe,...study the Word and prepare teachings and go witnessing all day,and even be able to tithe from his own 'income' to the way...
Of course, TWI has to to bigger and better than anyone else-so to give only 10% is spitting in God's face. Seems to me they've simply taken a "practice" or "belief system" that is centuries old and twisted it to line their own coffers.
I think there was a Way Rag article by LCM about the tithe when we were, lessee now, would've been early 90's. I think that was where he coined the immortal phrase "God won't spit in your direction for less than 10%." I remember a young couple in the same twig we attended wanting to give but being unable to donate 10% and I told them "give what you can with a cheerful heart and you will still be blessed." That was when the guy told me the TC, a little legalistic banty rooster of a jerk, had told him not to dare give anything less than 10% or it would displease God. (I think his god must have been from Oklahoma). I told them I strongly disagreed with that, I didn't care what LCM said.
LCM threw out the numbers of 15% and increasing each year by a percent or two back in the late nineties. I think there is even an audio clip on greasespot with him ranting on about this very subject.
As far as I know it was Craig who put 15% plus out there as the standard - not as a redefinition of what tithing means (tithe means "tenth"), but as a minimum for those who were disciples. He hammered it so hard it might as well have been a policy, but this was never actually the case.
He quoted VPW as having taught from II Cor 9:6-8 that "sowing sparingly" was just above the tithe ("giving" starts after you have paid your debt, that is, the tithe) and "sowing bountifully" would be way above the tithe. I think this is where he brought in the at least 15% rationale.
Now we're getting somewhere... I think we've all heard these things and were pressured (or saw folks pressured) into making a higher percentage 'the minimum'...
I appreciate the input so far and look forward to more...
Abi's right. LCM was really trying to get everyone to plurality giving which meant that you give everything you don't need. Talk about a cult leader!!! I remember at the time I was already giving 15%. I remember being bummed that I was classified as sowing sparingly. Geez. I hate that I was hoodwinked. But I am glad that it won't happen EVER AGAIN.
What about the reports that folks' abundant sharing was tracked and they were denied "participation" in certain classes if they weren't "giving" enough?
What about the reports that folks' abundant sharing was tracked and they were denied "participation" in certain classes if they weren't "giving" enough?
Faithful abundant sharing was and is a requirement for attending the Advanced Class.
Tom, I think in about 1983, right after becoming Prez, LCM had consecutive articles; "The Tithe Doth Still
Provide" and "The Spiritual Abundance of Abundant Sharing" that set up 10% or nothing as the standard.
Of course the second article pushed the above 10% agenda. Those two articles are appendinces to the latest foundational class. There's no true bbiblical research in the articles, just LCM's private interpretation.
BTW, if I remember correctly, Dr. W taught tithing was based on pre-tax income - some time in the mid 90's LCM changed the standard to after tax income.
When our then 16 year old daughter applied for the Advanced Class in 2004, the application asked the
question about tithing to TWI. I don't know if the answer to that question is ever verified by fellowship
coordinators or HQ staff.
I do remember a long ago burning doctrinal question was whether class fees were to be included as part
of one's tithing/abundant sharing or if the fees were in addition to the tithe/ABS. Seems as if the answer
locally was thithe and God will provide the funds for the class fee.
A gentleman who was formerly on staff at TWI told me toward the end of their involvement which would've been mid to late 1990's, their TC in Minster, OH was requiring his underlings to bring their paycheck stubs to fellowship! Even earlier, in 1975 in Fellow Laborers, I got yapped at for ABS'ing in cash, because the smartdonkey branch coordinator could not keep track of how much I gave if it was in cash. (never occurred to him that if I was the only one who gave cash, it would be easy to figure out where it came from, I guess). I was required to write a check so he could be sure I was giving enough. I was too intimidated to say anything.
As a Twig Coord.....uhommm excuse me..............Household Fellowship Coord in the 90's......I used to make lovely ABS charts.... (required)
here is a sample:
$100 $200 $300 $400
JOE 2/96-----------
3/96--------------
4/96---------------
5/96----- (uh oh, red flad, he went down)
6/96-----
7/96----
*****Counciling session*****
"Joe, you are not believing enough, why are you not increasing your ABS????"
"UHHH, I can't pay my utilities unless I stay at 10%!"
"Joe, don't you know that God won't give you revelation if you don't go ABOVE the minumum requirement to be a disciple? You really need to give your believing up there, and give more, then God will bring abundance. Since you brought it up, lets have a look at your debt, budget and spending habits, I bet you are out of control financially!!!!"[/b]
A gentleman who was formerly on staff at TWI told me toward the end of their involvement which would've been mid to late 1990's, their TC in Minster, OH was requiring his underlings to bring their paycheck stubs to fellowship! Even earlier, in 1975 in Fellow Laborers, I got yapped at for ABS'ing in cash, because the smartdonkey branch coordinator could keep track of how much. (never occurred to him that if I was the only one who gave cash, it would be easy to figure out where it came from, I guess). I was required to write a check so he could be sure I was giving enough. I was too intimidated to say anything.
WG
If someone asks for a check instead of cash, and you do it, it doesn't prove much.
What proves something, I believe, would be if someone DIDN'T write the check after being asked, and then see if there are any consequences, such as being kicked out of twig, and so forth.
No doubt there were some folks in twi that, if you let them push you around, they will gladly.
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Nottawayfer
I can't think of specific verses used. But they came up with "We are in the grace administration, why would we give less when God has given us so much more?" This was specifically hammered by LCM around January 1996. There was a major snow storm, and they cancelled the STS that Sunday. But he decided to teach anyway. The tape made was a required listening for everyone. We had a Branch meeting to listen to it, and then we were all asked what our thougths were on it. Of course nobody was going to reject what the MOG said for fear of being M&A. LCM was pretty riled up and spewing ferociously about it. He must have been ticked off that the money received was low. Right after that is when they sold all of the extra properties around HQ. His spewing was about 6 or 8 months after he made the edict that the Corps would be fulltime.
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Tom Strange
Thanks WN, that's a good start... 1996, I was thinking it was creeping in back in the 80's but maybe it wasn't 'official'... does anyone recall the tape numbers, or articles in the Way Rag? ...letters from HQ?
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Watered Garden
Was that the same one where he said a person who comes to a fellowship should be so excited, so blessed that that first time that soul would want to give 10%, then after that keep increasing on a regular basis, until while taking the class for the first time (PFAL) would naturally give 15% or so?
He went on and on at a great rate. I think the squeeze was on, with WC being full time and so on. Our BL and his little wife were always talking about eating out at some Mexican restaurant or other, but that night they snivelled and whined about what would they do, what would they do, if their salaries were cut because we underlings were not believing big enough to give a truckload of money to TWI. The little wife sniffed, "I don't have to have nice things to put in my hair. I don't have to have nice things to put on my face." I can live without those things and we can eat Raman noodles all the time."
I thought about my early years of marriage, (not to mention the WOW field), when I bought toiletries at the drugstore and thought nothing of it. I always had enough. Not because of the dollars and cents I donated to TWI, but because God loves me - and I'm a smart shopper!
That said, we do give to our little church, because we love God and we love our little church, and because we want to. The day we're told we have to, we'll say, "Hasta La Vista!"
And of course, nasty person that I am, when they were whining about Raman noodles and so on, I thought, "Gee," I thought all you wonderful men and women of God who were WC grads were volunteers!"
WG
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Tom Strange
Over on John Juedes site there's a page called The bondage of the law of tithing (you may wish to read it)... there's a couple of passages that are kind of what I'm looking for:
We've all heard these things before... does anyone have any documentation for them? ...and then of course for the percentages that were associated with these rants?And since it will probably be brought up that Juedes is a 'spin doctor' here's his spin on giving:
That's a spin I can get on board with... and that's very, very close to the way "giving" was presented to me by the special folks who were the WOWs who first witnessed to and taught me...
Along the way something got twisted... when? how? why?
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oldiesman
I don't know Tom, when twi does it, some folks might refer to that as "loving bombing" to get your loot.
Can't you SEE the evil decepting of those WOWS?
Seriously, thanks for the nice word about the WOWs. :)
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Tom Strange
OM... you've been around a long time... do you have any recollection or documentation as to the when, the why, the how tithing/giving became law? ...and what percentages were dictated?
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oldiesman
I think the concept was first discussed in PFAL and Christians Should be Prosperous.
As far as it becoming law and "required", I haven't a clue.
I was under the impression that giving money in twi wasn't ever "required", but I could be wrong as I wasn't around past 1991.
I never heard of anyone actually getting booted out for not throwing money in the horn of plenty, which case may indicate it being an actual "requirement".
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Abigail
The "God won't spit in your direction" line by LCM was on the teaching tape that Wayfer Not referred to. Somewhere in that same time frame it was also decided that people who weren't abundantly sharing could not participate in classes - even the foundational one.
I got involved in TWI in 1991. I don't remember it being directly taught, but I do remember it being clearly understood that we were supposed to give something above the tithe. I think the 15% number came out around the same time as LCM's tape.
Anything over 10% was considered abundantly sharing, but we were instructed that to get the real blessings from God we had to plurality give - which meant giving everything above and beyond your absolute need. In other words - do you really need to save for retirement? Do you really need to buy new clothing or could you go out and buy stuff from Sally? Do you really need that candy bar or pack of gum? If you were still considering those things as needs, then you weren't plurality giving.
IMO, none of it is biblical according to the new testament. The NT verses TWI used to back up their crap were taken out of context and twisted (gee - how surprising!). In Acts when Paul collected money, it was because there was a famine in Jerusalem and they were trying to help those who were starving. He did NOT keep money for himself. Paul EARNED his money be WORKING an HONEST JOB.
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simonzelotes
Tom,
I left about '89 os so,and I don't recall any sort of a written edict or anything like that about the tithe....It seemed like the way I remember it taught was that 'abundant sharing' did not really start until after the tithe,or '10%' was given,before taxes,of course....The handbook most often used was "Christians Should be Prosperous"...But I don't recall it ever written as a requirement for way followers---more of a "this is what we believe"....
The tithe as practiced by the way was one of those things in my later years,I started becoming pretty uncertain about practicing and teaching...It was fine as an 18 year old WOW,when you only had yourself to look after in your commune style of living...But as the people in the ministry started getting older--having families, and looking for more stability in their lives,I know some of us started looking more seriously at the practice of tithing as taught by the way...The way also taught to share of your 'plurality'....Well.how do you define plurality?....Are savings a plurality?...For a house? Car? Edjimication?.....In practice,I usually gave about 12%(before taxes) to stifle any guilt trips I might have coming up later when I did have some disposable income...
My dad always asked me why I tithed...He'd say "you pay taxes---there's your tithe"....It took years before that started sinking in,even Biblically...In the Old Testament,tithing was basically used for many of the same purposes as our taxes are currently being used...However,in the O.T.,the government and the religion were virtually one and the same...Israel was a nation....they needed to have an army,government leaders,...they also had the widows and the poor to take care of...Those things are now for the most part paid for by our tax dollars...So why do we need the tithe today?....Especially so since the way frowned on giving $$$ to good works causes,like soup kitchens,missionary programs etc. ..."The work of the ministry" was where it was supposed to go to...I thought about it once and figured if everybody in the way tithed,then each twig leader that had more that 10 people in his twig could quit his job and live off of the tithe,...study the Word and prepare teachings and go witnessing all day,and even be able to tithe from his own 'income' to the way...
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topoftheworld
Interesting historical informaton about tithe-worth reading through-and other links on the subject
History of Tithe
Of course, TWI has to to bigger and better than anyone else-so to give only 10% is spitting in God's face. Seems to me they've simply taken a "practice" or "belief system" that is centuries old and twisted it to line their own coffers.
What a crock of bb juice.
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Watered Garden
Aw, Tom,
That was one year in my life I'm really thankful for, mostly due to nice folks like y'all.
I like to think we done some good out there in Texas!
WG
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Watered Garden
I think there was a Way Rag article by LCM about the tithe when we were, lessee now, would've been early 90's. I think that was where he coined the immortal phrase "God won't spit in your direction for less than 10%." I remember a young couple in the same twig we attended wanting to give but being unable to donate 10% and I told them "give what you can with a cheerful heart and you will still be blessed." That was when the guy told me the TC, a little legalistic banty rooster of a jerk, had told him not to dare give anything less than 10% or it would displease God. (I think his god must have been from Oklahoma). I told them I strongly disagreed with that, I didn't care what LCM said.
Banty never liked me much after that.....
WG
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shortfuse
LCM threw out the numbers of 15% and increasing each year by a percent or two back in the late nineties. I think there is even an audio clip on greasespot with him ranting on about this very subject.
As far as I know it was Craig who put 15% plus out there as the standard - not as a redefinition of what tithing means (tithe means "tenth"), but as a minimum for those who were disciples. He hammered it so hard it might as well have been a policy, but this was never actually the case.
He quoted VPW as having taught from II Cor 9:6-8 that "sowing sparingly" was just above the tithe ("giving" starts after you have paid your debt, that is, the tithe) and "sowing bountifully" would be way above the tithe. I think this is where he brought in the at least 15% rationale.
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Tom Strange
Now we're getting somewhere... I think we've all heard these things and were pressured (or saw folks pressured) into making a higher percentage 'the minimum'...
I appreciate the input so far and look forward to more...
shortfuse: that's a much more 'friendly' avatar!
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Nottawayfer
Abi's right. LCM was really trying to get everyone to plurality giving which meant that you give everything you don't need. Talk about a cult leader!!! I remember at the time I was already giving 15%. I remember being bummed that I was classified as sowing sparingly. Geez. I hate that I was hoodwinked. But I am glad that it won't happen EVER AGAIN.
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oldiesman
I suspected this too. I knew all along that giving money was expected, even in the early days; but never an actual requirement to participate.
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Tom Strange
What about the reports that folks' abundant sharing was tracked and they were denied "participation" in certain classes if they weren't "giving" enough?
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shortfuse
Faithful abundant sharing was and is a requirement for attending the Advanced Class.
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oldiesman
Not mine. I first took the Advanced Class in March of 1978 and just before then, hadn't gone to fellowship for 6 months.
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shortfuse
Right. I should have said Advanced Class on The Way of Abundance and Power.
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Mr. Pipes
Tom, I think in about 1983, right after becoming Prez, LCM had consecutive articles; "The Tithe Doth Still
Provide" and "The Spiritual Abundance of Abundant Sharing" that set up 10% or nothing as the standard.
Of course the second article pushed the above 10% agenda. Those two articles are appendinces to the latest foundational class. There's no true bbiblical research in the articles, just LCM's private interpretation.
BTW, if I remember correctly, Dr. W taught tithing was based on pre-tax income - some time in the mid 90's LCM changed the standard to after tax income.
When our then 16 year old daughter applied for the Advanced Class in 2004, the application asked the
question about tithing to TWI. I don't know if the answer to that question is ever verified by fellowship
coordinators or HQ staff.
I do remember a long ago burning doctrinal question was whether class fees were to be included as part
of one's tithing/abundant sharing or if the fees were in addition to the tithe/ABS. Seems as if the answer
locally was thithe and God will provide the funds for the class fee.
History as I remeber it, Tom. Good question.
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Watered Garden
A gentleman who was formerly on staff at TWI told me toward the end of their involvement which would've been mid to late 1990's, their TC in Minster, OH was requiring his underlings to bring their paycheck stubs to fellowship! Even earlier, in 1975 in Fellow Laborers, I got yapped at for ABS'ing in cash, because the smartdonkey branch coordinator could not keep track of how much I gave if it was in cash. (never occurred to him that if I was the only one who gave cash, it would be easy to figure out where it came from, I guess). I was required to write a check so he could be sure I was giving enough. I was too intimidated to say anything.
WG
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bliss
As a Twig Coord.....uhommm excuse me..............Household Fellowship Coord in the 90's......I used to make lovely ABS charts.... (required)
here is a sample:
$100 $200 $300 $400
JOE 2/96-----------
3/96--------------
4/96---------------
5/96----- (uh oh, red flad, he went down)
6/96-----
7/96----
*****Counciling session*****
"Joe, you are not believing enough, why are you not increasing your ABS????"
"UHHH, I can't pay my utilities unless I stay at 10%!"
"Joe, don't you know that God won't give you revelation if you don't go ABOVE the minumum requirement to be a disciple? You really need to give your believing up there, and give more, then God will bring abundance. Since you brought it up, lets have a look at your debt, budget and spending habits, I bet you are out of control financially!!!!"[/b]
You think I am kidding.......... :evildenk
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oldiesman
If someone asks for a check instead of cash, and you do it, it doesn't prove much.
What proves something, I believe, would be if someone DIDN'T write the check after being asked, and then see if there are any consequences, such as being kicked out of twig, and so forth.
No doubt there were some folks in twi that, if you let them push you around, they will gladly.
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