quote: Johniam, I'm thinking that Jesus probably never told his disciples "Truth needs no defense" if they asked him a question and also willing to bet that he probably didn't instruct them to use that phrase either.
Of course He never taught that. He didn't speak English, ha ha. But on at least one occasion He showed them how. Remember Mark 9 when that man was putting Jesus disciples on the defensive because they couldn't heal his kid? Then the man tried the same crap on Jesus but Jesus basically asked the man if he could believe. He didn't go on the defensive. That canyon just became a crack in the sidewalk.
Note to self:
the twi "never actually address the question" techniques are still alive and well
in usage among twi "apologists".
First the change of subject (he didn't speak English).
Then make an irrelevant comparison.
Then continue as if it's the same thing when it isn't,
and hope nobody notices.
The subject is the dodges and evasions used by twi to avoid explanations
and uncomfortable questions- "spin control" as some people here love to say.
In Mark 9, a father had a sick child.
Did the father care about doctrine and the law?
Not at that moment-he wanted his child healed.
Sophistry was NOT on the table with him-just heal the kid.
So, he went to the disciples.
No healing.
So, he went to their boss.
"If you can do anythng..."
Jesus put the responsibility back on the man.
Was the man intending to put Jesus on the spot and trap him in talk?
You'd have to accept that he was willing to have his child sick
just to win an argument. SHAME on you if you think any parent with an
ounce of humanity could seriously consider it.
He wanted what-to give Jesus a trick question?
NO. His child was sick, and he was single-mindedly focused on their healing.
Did Jesus respond as if the man was trying to trip him up?
No-he seems to think the man wanted his child healed,
and the responsibility for the child was the man's,
so he put the responsibility back on the man's shoulders.
"Lord, I believe-help my unbelief."
So, is this where Jesus says "You're playing word-games.
I'm leaving until you can give me a straight yes-or-no answer.
Next time tell the Pharisees to do their own dirty work"
and storms off?
NO.
Jesus understood this had NOTHING to do with trick questions,
ridiculing Jesus, or word-games.
The man wanted his child healed.
Jesus concerned himself little with the exact wording of his
request for help, and prayed for the child's deliverance.
Which the child got.
I don't know what canyons had to do with the discussion, either,
for that matter.
Oh, look, a cloud! But what's it doing at ground level?
Truth needs no defense foot-U-MEs that one is speaking THE TRUTH. Which, imo, is pretty darn arrogant. And THAT'S where one gets into trouble.
A wiser, more mature position to take would be to welcome discussion about one's position because:
"If truth needs no defense, it also stands to reason that
"Truth Has Nothing to Hide"
and
"Truth Has No Fear of Questions".
I think all of us have things we believed to be the truth only to find out later that - gasp! - we were wrong! How did we, then, come to that realization? <_<
quote: In your opinion, twi was THE Messenger with THE Truth, then?
Not at all. The bible is a big book. There is so much information in THE truth that many groups can emphasize and allow enough of it that they can legitimately say they teach THE truth. Even churches. It's every person's individual choice who to fellowship with.
quote: Truth needs no defense foot-U-MEs that one is speaking THE TRUTH. Which, imo, is pretty darn arrogant. And THAT'S where one gets into trouble.
I'm guessing you would be hesitant to just come out and admit that you believe Jesus was pretty darn arrogant. Didn't He say "I am the way, the truth, and the life"? Didn't He also say, "Sanctify them (His disciples) throught thy truth. Thy word is truth"?
I only get into trouble with a bigotted unbelieving world. It's hard to criticize TWI without eventually criticizing Jesus, God, etc. Sometimes you guys just go too far.
I'm guessing you would be hesitant to just come out and admit that you believe Jesus was pretty darn arrogant. Didn't He say "I am the way, the truth, and the life"? Didn't He also say, "Sanctify them (His disciples) throught thy truth. Thy word is truth"?
Ummm...no...not Belle...not at all...that would be twi you're thinking about.
TWI (not Belle) goes around claiming trademark on the words, "Way", "The Way", and other variations. TWI claims ownership of being "The Way". TWI has sued other people for daring to use the word "Way".
Guess it's twi that thinks Jesus was pretty darn arrogant. I'm sure twi would be suing Jesus right this second...if they knew where to find Him.
IMO, Truth is the only thing really WORTH defending. Oh, but wait, according to TWI,"facts are not truth". Huh? sounds like a pretty handy loophole.I wonder if it's "true" or just a "fact"?
I'm with HegotHope on this one... the witnessing "techniques" were nothing but rehashed Dale Carnegie principles (with no credit given). TWI even tried teaching their version of Carnegie to us in the Corps. I can still use er I mean win friends and use er I mean influence people with the best of 'em...
You mean if they actually question the validity of the theology your trying to shove down their throats?
C'mon, "Truth needs no defense" was used almost exclusively to avoid "arguing theology" with folks... and why? ...because they were arguments that couldn't be won for the most part...
Wordwolfe, if you are not a lawyer you ought to be one. You're good.
Hey Tom Strange,
Remember Bill Hayes's (God rest his soul) famous Christian Motivational Techniques or Mo Tec for short. I abhorred that class because I hated doing stuff in front of a group. But I really enjoyed the Carnagie techniques we were taught.
As I recall, Bill was a Dale Carnagie Instructor before he got in TWI.
Then guess what he developed with VPW's approval. Mo Tech!!
It made us better salesmen indeed. PFAL classes were rollig down the pike as we applied our Carnagie techniques. They work.
Another 6th Corps guy taught us a speed reading class, taken from Ms. Evelyn Woods speed reading courses that he was familiar with. I actually liked a lot of those classes better than some boring bible teachings.
Sorry, I digress. But then again, my truth needs no defense so .... Phuq you.
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WordWolf
Note to self:
the twi "never actually address the question" techniques are still alive and well
in usage among twi "apologists".
First the change of subject (he didn't speak English).
Then make an irrelevant comparison.
Then continue as if it's the same thing when it isn't,
and hope nobody notices.
The subject is the dodges and evasions used by twi to avoid explanations
and uncomfortable questions- "spin control" as some people here love to say.
In Mark 9, a father had a sick child.
Did the father care about doctrine and the law?
Not at that moment-he wanted his child healed.
Sophistry was NOT on the table with him-just heal the kid.
So, he went to the disciples.
No healing.
So, he went to their boss.
"If you can do anythng..."
Jesus put the responsibility back on the man.
Was the man intending to put Jesus on the spot and trap him in talk?
You'd have to accept that he was willing to have his child sick
just to win an argument. SHAME on you if you think any parent with an
ounce of humanity could seriously consider it.
He wanted what-to give Jesus a trick question?
NO. His child was sick, and he was single-mindedly focused on their healing.
Did Jesus respond as if the man was trying to trip him up?
No-he seems to think the man wanted his child healed,
and the responsibility for the child was the man's,
so he put the responsibility back on the man's shoulders.
"Lord, I believe-help my unbelief."
So, is this where Jesus says "You're playing word-games.
I'm leaving until you can give me a straight yes-or-no answer.
Next time tell the Pharisees to do their own dirty work"
and storms off?
NO.
Jesus understood this had NOTHING to do with trick questions,
ridiculing Jesus, or word-games.
The man wanted his child healed.
Jesus concerned himself little with the exact wording of his
request for help, and prayed for the child's deliverance.
Which the child got.
I don't know what canyons had to do with the discussion, either,
for that matter.
Oh, look, a cloud! But what's it doing at ground level?
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Belle
Truth needs no defense foot-U-MEs that one is speaking THE TRUTH. Which, imo, is pretty darn arrogant. And THAT'S where one gets into trouble.
A wiser, more mature position to take would be to welcome discussion about one's position because:
I think all of us have things we believed to be the truth only to find out later that - gasp! - we were wrong! How did we, then, come to that realization? <_<
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CoolWaters
Thelma Louise Darlene!!!
Very nice boiling down of what I was trying to say and ask. TY...TYVM. :)
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johniam
quote: In your opinion, twi was THE Messenger with THE Truth, then?
Not at all. The bible is a big book. There is so much information in THE truth that many groups can emphasize and allow enough of it that they can legitimately say they teach THE truth. Even churches. It's every person's individual choice who to fellowship with.
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johniam
quote: Truth needs no defense foot-U-MEs that one is speaking THE TRUTH. Which, imo, is pretty darn arrogant. And THAT'S where one gets into trouble.
I'm guessing you would be hesitant to just come out and admit that you believe Jesus was pretty darn arrogant. Didn't He say "I am the way, the truth, and the life"? Didn't He also say, "Sanctify them (His disciples) throught thy truth. Thy word is truth"?
I only get into trouble with a bigotted unbelieving world. It's hard to criticize TWI without eventually criticizing Jesus, God, etc. Sometimes you guys just go too far.
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igotout
Why limit yourself to the bible? Its flawed anyway. Nice book which contains some truth. But there is more to life than the damn bible.
I encourage you TWI apologist to do somethng.......
Set aside all your TWI logic including the holy Piffle books for 6 months. Indeed haul them all to the local dump.
Get away from the computer, Greasespot and Internet. (Computers are apain in the arse anyway).
Go out and get laid and have some other fun.
Make some friends who are not believers.
REPORT BACK as to how your life changed during that time.
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excathedra
that's the best advice i've heard all day, igotout
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Belle
Apples and Oranges, John.
Apples: "Truth needs no defense" is a statement made by TWIts and it implies exactly what I said. I stand behind my post. :)
Oranges: JC saying, "I am the way the truth and the life" - I made no mention of this and it's totally irrelevant to the subject of this thread.
To connect my post to something Jesus said is a total leap of illogic.
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CoolWaters
Ummm...no...not Belle...not at all...that would be twi you're thinking about.
TWI (not Belle) goes around claiming trademark on the words, "Way", "The Way", and other variations. TWI claims ownership of being "The Way". TWI has sued other people for daring to use the word "Way".
Guess it's twi that thinks Jesus was pretty darn arrogant. I'm sure twi would be suing Jesus right this second...if they knew where to find Him.
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waysider
IMO, Truth is the only thing really WORTH defending. Oh, but wait, according to TWI,"facts are not truth". Huh? sounds like a pretty handy loophole.I wonder if it's "true" or just a "fact"?
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Tom Strange
But they put that blonde teacher under house arrest didn't they? ...or is she 'available'?
And hows come I know where to go in Tampa/St Pete to find this but not in Dallas?
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WordWolf
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WordWolf
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