On this particular topic, I cannot be detached, or neutral or "fair", LindaZ and everybody else. I did not intend to inflict harshness, but it happened anyway.
My unfairness comes from personal hurt as a family member was continually used by lcm. I know vpw is not lcm - however my head and my heart won't work together on this one.
Once they were dismissed, my "kids" were pumped for any tidbits (which they never publicly released) until they were forced first into seclusion, and then moving away.
If we could stop bickering for a minute, I think it's pretty obvious Vic was an adulterer. Rape or drugs or re hash aside, he cheated on his wife. Can we all agree to that?
As far as the re hash issue, there are always new people here. They need to know. So therefore it might come up again and again.
PS Vic exposed himself to my mother.
PPS in CF&X Vic danced around the question of adultry. How hard is it to say it's wrong? geez.
Georgio - - you are 100% right. I'm sorry if this sounds like a derail, however, I've been here (at the boards) since WayDale and I forget how many years that is!!! It is ONLY IN THE LAST 4 MONTHS that I've been able to speak publically about my particular situation.
The reason I bring this up, is because Georgio reminded us of the new folks coming and reading. Besides the new folks arriving, it takes sometimes a whole lot of time before some of the rest of us have gotten to the place where we can reveal stuff publically - - that's how deep some of the wounds are. So besides new people arriving, there will also be new information put forth as some of us "oldies" are able to tell about it.
As I think about it now, at this very minute, I realize that this post, among others, does indeed address the original question of "Do We Have Any Real Proof" because every statement from those even now just speaking up after all this time, adds to the body of evidence!
this seems to be another one of those posts where everything gets blown out of porportion.
the question was " Are there any documents or lawsuits" placed against VPW.
You guys just couldnt answer a simple question. You read way to much into things.
Um...NO....
The question was...and still is..."Do We Have Any Real Proof of VPW's Adulterous Affairs?"
That's NOT a 'simple' question.
What is the difference between 'proof' and 'real proof'?
In its bald simplicity, the original question of this thread inherently assumes that any proof already seen by the writer is not 'real'.
And if the writer didn't really mean to write it in such a way, the original post was:
Well, read Karl Kahler's book a couple of years back and enjoyed it. I know we have proof of LCM messing around. But I only found out about VPW after his death. Do we have any real proof of the motorcoach escapades and having TWI women report to him for sexual favors?
Not one word was mentioned about documents or lawsuits. Until, of course, AFTER people perceived (properly) the inherent assumption of the original question.
Whitewash away the intended meaning behind the original question if you wanna...hell, being in that cult taught us all how do to so quite well, tyvm...but don't expect me to follow along behind and help with the whitewash...or believe the whitewash.
I just don't think there was any evil intent on the part of the people who are being painted with a broad brush here.
"Evil intent"? That's a pretty broad brush, there.
I believe, instead, that people just don't accept first-hand and/or eye-witness testimony as 'real proof'.
Is that 'evil intent'?
Depends on how broad one wants that brush to be...
BTW...imo, yes, a poll such as the one you have suggested would have been a much better option. Hindsight is 20/20 in this instance, though. At this point it would be adding insult to injury...imo.
But, hey, I'm not the Queen of GSC or this thread...contrary to popular opinion...tee hee...so do whatever you wanna do...it's a free community here. :)
And yet you are ASSuming what Eagle's intent was CW. From his very first post, I took it that he meant things like people trying to file charges, or lawsuits, etc. Never ONCE did I take it that he was doubting anyones word.
Also, I see you have made yet ANOTHER jab at pond about her "previous incarnation". If previous incarnations on the board are important, wanna talk about a poster who went by the name Vyctoria? Or maybe it would be better if we ALL quit bringing up peoples previous monikers, hmmm?
And yet you are ASSuming what Eagle's intent was CW. From his very first post, I took it that he meant things like people trying to file charges, or lawsuits, etc. Never ONCE did I take it that he was doubting anyones word.
Also, I see you have made yet ANOTHER jab at pond about her "previous incarnation". If previous incarnations on the board are important, wanna talk about a poster who went by the name Vyctoria? Or maybe it would be better if we ALL quit bringing up peoples previous monikers, hmmm?
I would LOVE to talk about Vyctoria!!!! Have been asking and asking and asking...and the ONLY response I've received is, "You were banned the last time you tangled with THAT person."
ugh, you guys sound like a crappy lawyer's convention.
How do you define "is"?
"It depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is. If the--if he--if "is" means is and never has been, that is not — that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement."
Grand jury testimony, August 17, 1998
It's all a diversion from a simple fact. Vic was an adulterer.
good day
PS did I mention he exposed himself to my mother? That's not adultry, that's sexual assault. But, hey, it came from my mom and I didn't see it so it's hear say.
I don't really know much of anything about VPW and really don't give a rats a$$ about him or the way. He was dead before I ever heard of the way, and my time in the way was so long ago that it's a totally insignificant part of my life.
The only reason I even posted on this thread is, I know the poster who started it and unless the dude has changed dramatically, he has no "evil intents" about him. He asked a question that COULD have been answered in a civil manner but as usual, certain posters felt they just had to make a freaking big hairy deal about it. That .... is starting to get really old.
Threads like this are part of the reason I don't hang out at the cafe much anymore. It seems like we keep having the same arguments over and over.
On the other hand, it was this very topic was what brought me to the internet many years ago and lead to my connecting with this wonderful ex-twi community. The result has been more spiritual growth than I ever received in TWI. So I guess I should be happy that it's still being discussed and are bringing new people into the ex-TWI community. But it's kind of sad that, after all these years, we still can't have a civil conversation about such an important topic.
I am aware that many, many women here have posted about their experiences with VP. I would not dare call any one of them a liar or a charlatan.
But the original question asked if there is proof of VP's adulterous activities, similar to that which drove LCM from office. Both LCM and his mnetor allegedly had multiple affairs with the women of the Way over several years. I have heard second and third hand stories from reliable sources aobut both.
But the reason Craig left the presidency was not because a lot of people posted anonymously on in internet forum. It was because a woman publicly accused him and forced him to admit publicly, in court documents, that he had committed adultery. That is a level of proof that no Way-brained follower can dispute, no matter how much they want to remain blind.
We simply do not have that level of proof of DocVic's adulterous proclivities. Does that mean he's innocent? No. Iit just means we can't prove his guilt to the satisfaction of the Weirwillites. To those who suffered abuse at his hands, this must be a maddening situation. I feel genuinely sorry for those ladies and understand fully why they choose to remiain anonymous or choose not to even discuss what happened to them.
It would be immensely satisfying to me to see such proof brought forward in a public venue just so that this topic could be laid to rest with VP and so his victims could stop defending themselves against those who wish to remain ingnorant to the dark side of our "Father in the Word."
You gotta understand , it was a different time. Sexual abuse was often not reported. Especially when it's subtle and confusing. Only recently have people who were abused by a parent or relative felt comfortable about coming forward.
Think of the catholic church. Is there any proof that alter boys were abused in 1970?
If Vic were still around today, you could bet there's be lawsuits.
did i ever dream of doing what paul allen did ? NO NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS because i was still trying to sort things out and i was pretty messed up
when he was dead and gone, i did suggest to craig how loving it would be NOT to continue to follow in his footsteps and to stop that kind of stuff (i thought of craig as a a bit more meek and i knew he had been raised up by the father in the word dah dah dah) he wiped the floor with me. oh well
and if anyone is thinking following psycho geer was more profitable, oh please
hey georgio.... out of the mouth of babes.... (well compared to me, you are ) mwah
but as far as jesus movement and free love or people who felt they could do whatever
i have never had a problem with that being the immoral person that i am
i have only ever had a problem with a spiritual father man of god type using that position especially when the person shared their heart and soul fully about their background and how screwed up they were
hope this makes sense
in other words, for me, it was never about sleepnig around, and i wouldn't want to give that impression
it was about.... ahhhh.....
it was about begging and pleading and not understanding the spiritual significance or comfort of such a disgusting invitation
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krys
On this particular topic, I cannot be detached, or neutral or "fair", LindaZ and everybody else. I did not intend to inflict harshness, but it happened anyway.
My unfairness comes from personal hurt as a family member was continually used by lcm. I know vpw is not lcm - however my head and my heart won't work together on this one.
Once they were dismissed, my "kids" were pumped for any tidbits (which they never publicly released) until they were forced first into seclusion, and then moving away.
I apologize if my remarks hurt any of you.
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Linda Z
Krys, I understand why this is a hot button for you, and I'm sorry for the unbelievable hurt you and your family have gone through.
I just don't think there was any evil intent on the part of the people who are being painted with a broad brush here.
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Georgio Jessio
If we could stop bickering for a minute, I think it's pretty obvious Vic was an adulterer. Rape or drugs or re hash aside, he cheated on his wife. Can we all agree to that?
As far as the re hash issue, there are always new people here. They need to know. So therefore it might come up again and again.
PS Vic exposed himself to my mother.
PPS in CF&X Vic danced around the question of adultry. How hard is it to say it's wrong? geez.
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krys
Georgio - - you are 100% right. I'm sorry if this sounds like a derail, however, I've been here (at the boards) since WayDale and I forget how many years that is!!! It is ONLY IN THE LAST 4 MONTHS that I've been able to speak publically about my particular situation.
The reason I bring this up, is because Georgio reminded us of the new folks coming and reading. Besides the new folks arriving, it takes sometimes a whole lot of time before some of the rest of us have gotten to the place where we can reveal stuff publically - - that's how deep some of the wounds are. So besides new people arriving, there will also be new information put forth as some of us "oldies" are able to tell about it.
As I think about it now, at this very minute, I realize that this post, among others, does indeed address the original question of "Do We Have Any Real Proof" because every statement from those even now just speaking up after all this time, adds to the body of evidence!
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sogwap51
You want clips or details how he dealt with people in bed and how he got them there?
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CoolWaters
Um...NO....
The question was...and still is..."Do We Have Any Real Proof of VPW's Adulterous Affairs?"
That's NOT a 'simple' question.
What is the difference between 'proof' and 'real proof'?
In its bald simplicity, the original question of this thread inherently assumes that any proof already seen by the writer is not 'real'.
And if the writer didn't really mean to write it in such a way, the original post was:
Not one word was mentioned about documents or lawsuits. Until, of course, AFTER people perceived (properly) the inherent assumption of the original question.
Whitewash away the intended meaning behind the original question if you wanna...hell, being in that cult taught us all how do to so quite well, tyvm...but don't expect me to follow along behind and help with the whitewash...or believe the whitewash.
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CoolWaters
"Evil intent"? That's a pretty broad brush, there.
I believe, instead, that people just don't accept first-hand and/or eye-witness testimony as 'real proof'.
Is that 'evil intent'?
Depends on how broad one wants that brush to be...
BTW...imo, yes, a poll such as the one you have suggested would have been a much better option. Hindsight is 20/20 in this instance, though. At this point it would be adding insult to injury...imo.
But, hey, I'm not the Queen of GSC or this thread...contrary to popular opinion...tee hee...so do whatever you wanna do...it's a free community here. :)
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Linda Z
CW,are you implying that anyone asking about the facts is whitewashing what happened?
I'm certainly not.
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CoolWaters
If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.
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Linda Z
We're getting nowhere. I am sorry I had an opinion that differed slightly from yours.
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CoolWaters
Oh gawd, Linda. It's real simple, imo...if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.
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Linda Z
I know what the expression means, thank you.
Never mind.
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CoolWaters
And I know what the expression 'real proof' means.
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Bluzeman
And yet you are ASSuming what Eagle's intent was CW. From his very first post, I took it that he meant things like people trying to file charges, or lawsuits, etc. Never ONCE did I take it that he was doubting anyones word.
Also, I see you have made yet ANOTHER jab at pond about her "previous incarnation". If previous incarnations on the board are important, wanna talk about a poster who went by the name Vyctoria? Or maybe it would be better if we ALL quit bringing up peoples previous monikers, hmmm?
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CoolWaters
I would LOVE to talk about Vyctoria!!!! Have been asking and asking and asking...and the ONLY response I've received is, "You were banned the last time you tangled with THAT person."
Hmmmmm!
What do you know?
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Georgio Jessio
ugh, you guys sound like a crappy lawyer's convention.
How do you define "is"?
"It depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is. If the--if he--if "is" means is and never has been, that is not — that is one thing. If it means there is none, that was a completely true statement."
Grand jury testimony, August 17, 1998
It's all a diversion from a simple fact. Vic was an adulterer.
good day
PS did I mention he exposed himself to my mother? That's not adultry, that's sexual assault. But, hey, it came from my mom and I didn't see it so it's hear say.
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likeaneagle
To all that have been wronged...
OMG, If it was Spiritual, CHurch or Sexual manipulation that has been driven into our lives.
I just hope you have someone to cleave too, something to grab and hold on too...in those trying times..
Manipulation of any kind deserves cursing.....but how does it help.
It doesnt..It doesnt reach and mend the torn fragments of the inner person.
I think having a voice again and purposeful life is all I can ask for..
words are very powerful......its the placement of where they belong that makes the mark.
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Bluzeman
I don't really know much of anything about VPW and really don't give a rats a$$ about him or the way. He was dead before I ever heard of the way, and my time in the way was so long ago that it's a totally insignificant part of my life.
The only reason I even posted on this thread is, I know the poster who started it and unless the dude has changed dramatically, he has no "evil intents" about him. He asked a question that COULD have been answered in a civil manner but as usual, certain posters felt they just had to make a freaking big hairy deal about it. That .... is starting to get really old.
Rick
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excathedra
i had all this good stuff to say and as usual i forgot it, but it will come to me
i just heard something i want to share
see me feel me touch me heal me
listening to you i get the music
gazing at you i get the heat
following you i climb the mountain
i get excitement at your feet
right behind you i see the millions
on you i see the glory
from you i get opinions
from you i get the story
i'm thinking of starting a thread on tommy :)
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Bluzeman
Now THAT would be an interesting topic!
Rick
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Jbarrax
sigh.
Threads like this are part of the reason I don't hang out at the cafe much anymore. It seems like we keep having the same arguments over and over.
On the other hand, it was this very topic was what brought me to the internet many years ago and lead to my connecting with this wonderful ex-twi community. The result has been more spiritual growth than I ever received in TWI. So I guess I should be happy that it's still being discussed and are bringing new people into the ex-TWI community. But it's kind of sad that, after all these years, we still can't have a civil conversation about such an important topic.
I am aware that many, many women here have posted about their experiences with VP. I would not dare call any one of them a liar or a charlatan.
But the original question asked if there is proof of VP's adulterous activities, similar to that which drove LCM from office. Both LCM and his mnetor allegedly had multiple affairs with the women of the Way over several years. I have heard second and third hand stories from reliable sources aobut both.
But the reason Craig left the presidency was not because a lot of people posted anonymously on in internet forum. It was because a woman publicly accused him and forced him to admit publicly, in court documents, that he had committed adultery. That is a level of proof that no Way-brained follower can dispute, no matter how much they want to remain blind.
We simply do not have that level of proof of DocVic's adulterous proclivities. Does that mean he's innocent? No. Iit just means we can't prove his guilt to the satisfaction of the Weirwillites. To those who suffered abuse at his hands, this must be a maddening situation. I feel genuinely sorry for those ladies and understand fully why they choose to remiain anonymous or choose not to even discuss what happened to them.
It would be immensely satisfying to me to see such proof brought forward in a public venue just so that this topic could be laid to rest with VP and so his victims could stop defending themselves against those who wish to remain ingnorant to the dark side of our "Father in the Word."
Peace to all
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Georgio Jessio
You gotta understand , it was a different time. Sexual abuse was often not reported. Especially when it's subtle and confusing. Only recently have people who were abused by a parent or relative felt comfortable about coming forward.
Think of the catholic church. Is there any proof that alter boys were abused in 1970?
If Vic were still around today, you could bet there's be lawsuits.
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excathedra
proof ? do i really care ? no
he's dead
did i ever dream of doing what paul allen did ? NO NEVER IN A MILLION YEARS because i was still trying to sort things out and i was pretty messed up
when he was dead and gone, i did suggest to craig how loving it would be NOT to continue to follow in his footsteps and to stop that kind of stuff (i thought of craig as a a bit more meek and i knew he had been raised up by the father in the word dah dah dah) he wiped the floor with me. oh well
and if anyone is thinking following psycho geer was more profitable, oh please
hey georgio.... out of the mouth of babes.... (well compared to me, you are ) mwah
:)
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excathedra
you know what ? this will sound really sick
but as far as jesus movement and free love or people who felt they could do whatever
i have never had a problem with that being the immoral person that i am
i have only ever had a problem with a spiritual father man of god type using that position especially when the person shared their heart and soul fully about their background and how screwed up they were
hope this makes sense
in other words, for me, it was never about sleepnig around, and i wouldn't want to give that impression
it was about.... ahhhh.....
it was about begging and pleading and not understanding the spiritual significance or comfort of such a disgusting invitation
and it was about losing finally against my will
that's it
thanks
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