I prefer not to get much into this subject at this time on the public forum, but instead have sent a rather detailed PM to someone who has posted. BUt I will mewntion a cople quick things...
Sushi, you're a good guy, and what you say may be true, but it also sounds like a rebuff I got once when trying to find out more about this subject. As if the person assumed I had to be one of the "some" you describe.
Also, someone mentioned something about LCM being told to "loosen up sexually." Believe it or not, I think I can understand that happening to someone.
It was just a general statement, not directed at any one person.
YES...YES...I know, and my respect for you helps me know you werent directing it at anyone. In fact, the same respect helps me believe the same thing about the person who told me that. But it just sounded to me at the time like it was directed at anyone who hasnt made up his mind the "right way" whether the query is dishones or honest.
I'll explain more on you next visit to our great city.
I feel a need to add to this cause I am one..who is asking for more proof. I think I have been taught that hearsay is not noteworthy of my attention.I have been reading alot about VPW..I am not saying VPW could not be pursuaded or influenced by the power he held over people..he had a huge amount of influence over people and thier spiritual walks, that he could in return use sex as a tool to fulfill his desires...
I also think I have tried to guard in my mind the fact this did happen. Somehow I feel he brought alot of truths to my life via PFAL, even if plagerized..Is this VPW worship....no
I also know that VPW asked a friend of mine,sister to come to a room to wash his feet, in his efforts to see her humbleness or prove her worthiness of true Corp. THis has caused me to ? his validity as a true minister or teacher.
I would like to ask the Corp who served with VPW and LCM to speak up....
If your read Catchup's post on 'Destruction of Self', there are huge differences in LCM and VPW.
There are many threads already here that deal with this topic. Women have come forward with their experiences.
It's very difficult to do such a thing in private. To come forward out on the 'net on a public forum like this one is far more difficult than anybody can imagine. Especially this particular forum for these particular women...because there is a certain faction on this board who will and have ripped these women up one side and down the other. With pure venom and evil, imo.
Now along comes somebody and, innocently or not, asks these women to come forward again.
None of these women are doing so.
Anybody thought of why these women aren't posting their experiences here? Could it be that they've posted and posted, been ripped to pieces repeatedly, and just are not willing to do it all over again?
Last night in chat the SOSDD (same old s**t, different day) started up, too...again...
I know that I am at the point of telling people to search the threads if they really wanna know what happened in Alaska.
I'll bet those who can directly speak to the topic of this thread are thinking the same thing.
Why should anybody feel obligated to make somebody else's life easier by making their own life more difficult?
The rub of this thread is the expectation of personal sacrifice for the sole purpose that others don't have to do much for themselves.
You who are questioning really want to know? I say do the legwork yourself...if you really just want information. Otherwise you're giving all indication that you're trying to cast aspersions upon those who have come forward...and trying to cover such an attempt with an innocent face of, "well I'm just asking and it's all buried too deep to be found..." blah blah blah. IMO.
Am I being too harsh, too negative, too suspicious, too bitter?
I don't care any longer.
Unless you've put your most personal and most difficult experiences out here and been ripped to pieces in all ways possible on such a board...and have done so repeatedly with the same results...then you're in no position to judge in this matter...and you're certainly in no position to demand satisfaction of your 'curiosity'.
the bible verses you metion are saying go to the person you accuse and then with two or three witness..
vpw is dead been dead for a long while no one accused him while alive or if they have it was never been documented, unless something comes up on this thread
Umm, yes, so?
he can not deny or defend being dust now.
Which, if you're talking about the context of any of those verses, I don't believe the accused denying or defending ever had anything to do with whether those verses consitituted "proof" or not. Once the conditions of those verses were met, the accused was considered guilty of the accusation - any defense he rendered or didn't render didn't change that, so THAT'S a moot point when "proof" is present.
your reference is out of context.
No doubt, Pond. I referenced the verses out of context - as Jesus, Paul, & others did when they wanted to apply the truth of scripture to a different context to which, nevertheless, that truth applied, even at times "changing" the scripture reference to suit the new context while retaining the applicable truth - that truth being in this case "what consititutes proof."
Thinking is allowed. Jesus did it. Feel free to follow "in his steps" as Paul did and others.
For examples: Romans 9:27, 29, & 33. Those scriptures reference other scriptures taken out of the context of to whom they were addressed, but were as applicable in Paul's day, and, I dare say, are as applicable today, as they were applicable when first uttered in context
Bullinger said it well, "The necessity for this is constantly experienced today in adapting a quotation for any special purpose beyond its original intention. It is no less authoritative as Scripture, not does it alter the Word of God."
the verses you use are talking about taking care of issues in the church with the other believers and how do address it face to face. The point being to AVOID FAlse accusation and cheap talk amoung the members about one another which was hurting the group as a whole.
cant be done with vpw. his face is long gone by now .
So? What constitutes proof all of the sudden doesn't constitute proof the second the accused dies?
i do not believe those verses address dead people and what people may say about them at all.
You're right, Pond; these things were not addressed to us. They are for our learning.
Romans 15:4 Â For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
I don't want to sound condescending, but it is time to learn.
the bible verses you metion are saying go to the person you accuse and then with two or three witness..
vpw is dead been dead for a long while no one accused him while alive or if they have it was never been documented, unless something comes up on this thread .
Go ahead and review the archives.
Women have said that he-PERSONALLY-raped them,
or PERSONALLY drugged AND raped them.
Eyewitnesses have interacted with women sent to "his office"
(which was separate from all the buildings and was furnished
completely as a bedroom),
saw them leaving distraught,
then kicked off grounds,
and later put the pieces together.
Eyewitnesses have interacted with people on-staff who were
instructed to be ready and "counsel" women who had JUST
been raped by vpw.
In particular, the "Moneyhands" were mentioned as being
old hands at that.
Those who weren't "successfully counselled"
were kicked IMMEDIATELY off-grounds,
and their reputations were smeared,
as in "never speak to her-she is possessed".
Can't tell your story if nobody will hear you.
At least one person who was part of the "cleanup crew"
later confessed to knowing of this.
A reliable witness reported that vpw-after having a few drinks-
asked him to describe what an orgy is like-
and told him that they were ok with God.
Guy didn't put the pieces together until later.
We have women who say he tried UNSUCCESSFULLY to get them
to have sex with him,
and they report the SAME lines used on them as the women
he succeeded with.
We have women who reported that their
"From Birth to the Corps" autobiographies (MANDATORY papers)
included a history of sexual abuse or assault.
Many of those are the same women who were targeted for rape.
It's not a big secret that victims of something one time are often
easier to victimize later.
Were the papers specifically used to find rape victims?
One poster reported meeting vpw and Uncle Harry face-to-face
for the first time-together-
and Harry copped a feel off of her, out in the open, immediately.
Women on OTHER websites have reported being raped by him.
Ever read Schoenheit's paper on Adultery?
Do you honestly believe it wouldn't have been necessary if vpw
hadn't signed off on adultery and no-strings sex in the first place?
Ever hear about "the Lockbox?"
A number of insiders were told that this sort of thing were to be
kept secret and never to be told to other twi'ers, even.
Then there's things which escape my mind at this time.
So, all or some of them are telling the truth......
....or you're prepared to call dozens of people who have never
met a bunch of liars.
BTW,
the victims who have come forth have been insulted and had
people slander and vilify them online when they came forth.
Some posters tried to silence them immediately.
They came forth ANYWAY.
So, since we've danced this dance before, I ask you:
How many reports from victims, MINIMUM, will it take to convince you they're telling the truth?
How many reports from bystanders and those who spoke to them just afterwards,
MINIMUM, will it take to convince you that they're telling the truth?
Please provide an exact number.
Or, admit publicly that you may NEVER consider the testimony of the eyewitnesses
sufficient even if HUNDREDS of them show up,
because they're reporting something you do not WISH to hear?
he can not deny or defend being dust now.
When he was alive, he did a very thorough job of concealing his tracks
and silencing any discussion. If not for the internet, we STILL wouldn't know.
The point being to AVOID FAlse accusation and cheap talk amoung the members about one another which was hurting the group as a whole.
cant be done with vpw. his face is long gone by now .
i do not believe those verses address dead people and what people may say about them at all.
But they DO relate to people who are alive and tell their stories NOW,
and they have witnesses.....
Here's the rub for me...
There are many threads already here that deal with this topic. Women have come forward with their experiences.
It's very difficult to do such a thing in private. To come forward out on the 'net on a public forum like this one is far more difficult than anybody can imagine. Especially this particular forum for these particular women...because there is a certain faction on this board who will and have ripped these women up one side and down the other. With pure venom and evil, imo.
Now along comes somebody and, innocently or not, asks these women to come forward again.
None of these women are doing so.
Anybody thought of why these women aren't posting their experiences here? Could it be that they've posted and posted, been ripped to pieces repeatedly, and just are not willing to do it all over again?
Last night in chat the SOSDD (same old s**t, different day) started up, too...again...
I know that I am at the point of telling people to search the threads if they really wanna know what happened in Alaska.
I'll bet those who can directly speak to the topic of this thread are thinking the same thing.
Why should anybody feel obligated to make somebody else's life easier by making their own life more difficult?
The rub of this thread is the expectation of personal sacrifice for the sole purpose that others don't have to do much for themselves.
You who are questioning really want to know? I say do the legwork yourself...if you really just want information. Otherwise you're giving all indication that you're trying to cast aspersions upon those who have come forward...and trying to cover such an attempt with an innocent face of, "well I'm just asking and it's all buried too deep to be found..." blah blah blah. IMO.
Am I being too harsh, too negative, too suspicious, too bitter?
I don't care any longer.
Unless you've put your most personal and most difficult experiences out here and been ripped to pieces in all ways possible on such a board...and have done so repeatedly with the same results...then you're in no position to judge in this matter...and you're certainly in no position to demand satisfaction of your 'curiosity'.
If I tell you that another poster told me she was molested by VPW, that's hearsay.
If the other poster tells you directly, that is not hearsay. That is direct testimony. There is plenty of both in regards to what VPW has been accused of.
Has VPW ever been sued during his years in charge, or is there any documents or letters inviting woman to his room or motor coach.
I know you have done your homework on plagerism's.
If those documents are out there, they should be displayed on the front page of GSC as well.
I am not trying to open wounds in those who have discussed on the boards thier personal spiritual hurt brought on by this man...I apologize to those, I am not trying to hurt anyone..
I, for one, can testify FIRST HAND that vpw played that vulgar German Shepherd sex video and seemed to enjoy every minute of it. Narrated, commented, and laughed through the whole thing.
I was in the college program. It was while he was reading through the book "Beside Manners" to the corps. We (non-corps) were allowed to sit in on the evening sessions. And he played that movie. I was 23 at the time but there were kids who had just graduated high school sitting there next to me.
I distinctly remember getting physically ill and wishing I had the guts to leave the room.
It was also during this class and others that he referred to Mrs. Weirwille as "Sharp as a meatball and twice as juicy." Yeah, that's respectful of the first lady of the way.
He was also well known for pointing out that all the women of the kingdom belong to the king, and that David didn't do anything wrong in taking a friend's wife to bed -- only became wrong when he had the husband killed to keep the wife.
As a PS -- I had leadership tell me that VP told Craig he needed to loosen up sexually if he were ever going to be able to lead God's people, but I have no idea how he came by that information, and therefore it is definately hearsay.
Maybe not Likeaneagle, but that is what happens....
The information of personal first hand accounts has already been told repeatedly here. You have been told where you can find it in several locations...the sexual abuse thread, and the suicide thread, to name a couple of places.
You can read what word wolf wrote as an accurate summary of what has been related first hand....I can confirm the personal accounts were posted of everything he wrote.
It has been explained why it is difficult to come forth, after you have told your story and people start referring to you as a *perpetually whining victim* or a *liar* or *attention seeking perpetual victim* *the drama queen of sexual abuse*....*it takes two to tango* to name just a few epitaphs applied to those with guts enough to tell what really happened...after a while you tend to say wtf....you just shut up.
No nobody ever charged vpw, they never had the chance to tell their story...as they were escorted off grounds, declared posessed, and people told to avoid all contact lest they become infected as well.
That happened to several people....but with the internet now available ...they are FINALLY able to tell their side of the story.
The personal first hand accounts are out there....if the truth means something to you then for goodness sakes.... seek it out yourself....Try to understand the effort that it cost`s to relate these experiences .......don`t expect people to go through it yet again and the ensuing barage of insults, personal attacks, and attacks on their veracity and integrety in order to simply satisfy someones personal curiosity.
He was also well known for pointing out that all the women
That VP believed that all of his activities were justified biblically is no secret. He "documented" extramarital (commonly characterized as adultery) sex "biblically" to hundreds of WC, myself included. Of course, it was SUPPOSED to be kept a secret by us from non-WC because they couldn't handle it.
Actually, VP wasn't sure that we could handle it, but he said that he had to tell someone the truth about the freedom we have in Christ, & we were the best he had.
He also said that there were people among us - my particular corps - who would not keep that trust but would use what he was teaching against the ministry and would thereby destroy it. Perhaps John Lynn remembers that; he was there:). Can anyone say "paper on adultery?"
So, now you know what REALLY destroyed the ministry. Hm, it seems like I've lost my tongue inside my cheek somewhere. Or did I?
Yeah Eagle, don't expect people to go thru it yet again after we've all heard it again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again [/size] and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and againand again and againand again and againand again and againand again and again
i, for one, would die if my story was "showcased." even after all these stupid years it still messes with your head. and it's very difficult to tell, believe it or not
i remember i was in my first year of college taking the pfal class. veepee showed up in town to be the surprise guest at the 12th session. like the pope coming to your confirmation or something.
my meeting with the holy man of god:
i went to visit the girls way home and he was there. i walked past the bathroom and the door was open and he was blowdrying his hair and standing there stark naked. while i was walking into the wall, he smiled this big lecherous smile
now of course any normal person would have booked right then and there. but i did not really have normal boundaries.... (i guess because of being a victim of child sexual abuse)
when i asked my "mature in the word" college wow undershepherder about it, she told me when you become that spiritual, flesh doesn't really mean anything sexual or whatever....
Yeah Eagle, don't expect people to go thru it yet again after we've all heard it again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again [/size] and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and againand again and againand again and againand again and againand again and again
Im trying to connect the dots, thats all. It's friggin hard!!!!
As it should be, imo...because of exactly what has been done on this thread to make it hard on people who speak up.
It should be hard to find the stories...otherwise the creeps on this thread would make GSC about nothing but their creepiness...as has been exemplified.
When we post from our hearts, we're often posting when our hearts are touched deeply. There's no cataloguing what happened into nice, neat, easy-to-find files. That's not how it all happened, that's not how it feels inside, that's not how it's remembered, and that's not how our lives are lived.
Waiting on GT to come along and post all the places this is discussed? Why? What's so friggin' difficult about doing a search?
And, quite frankly, I'm with ExC on this...who the ph*** wants this stuff showcased, anyway? What kind of voyeurism is that?
Well, ya know, there are some people who, if you had a videotape of Mr. Simpson killing Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman would STILL think he was framed.
ahhh... you beat me to it verbal... I was going to simply post:
"I have no doubt that OJ killed his wife, I have no need to see a videotape or confront him"
Also... I doubt that 'the killers' were avid golfers as his actions would have you believe...
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Lifted Up
I prefer not to get much into this subject at this time on the public forum, but instead have sent a rather detailed PM to someone who has posted. BUt I will mewntion a cople quick things...
Sushi, you're a good guy, and what you say may be true, but it also sounds like a rebuff I got once when trying to find out more about this subject. As if the person assumed I had to be one of the "some" you describe.
Also, someone mentioned something about LCM being told to "loosen up sexually." Believe it or not, I think I can understand that happening to someone.
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Sushi
Lifted,
It was just a general statement, not directed at any one person.
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Lifted Up
YES...YES...I know, and my respect for you helps me know you werent directing it at anyone. In fact, the same respect helps me believe the same thing about the person who told me that. But it just sounded to me at the time like it was directed at anyone who hasnt made up his mind the "right way" whether the query is dishones or honest.
I'll explain more on you next visit to our great city.
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likeaneagle
I feel a need to add to this cause I am one..who is asking for more proof. I think I have been taught that hearsay is not noteworthy of my attention.I have been reading alot about VPW..I am not saying VPW could not be pursuaded or influenced by the power he held over people..he had a huge amount of influence over people and thier spiritual walks, that he could in return use sex as a tool to fulfill his desires...
I also think I have tried to guard in my mind the fact this did happen. Somehow I feel he brought alot of truths to my life via PFAL, even if plagerized..Is this VPW worship....no
I also know that VPW asked a friend of mine,sister to come to a room to wash his feet, in his efforts to see her humbleness or prove her worthiness of true Corp. THis has caused me to ? his validity as a true minister or teacher.
I would like to ask the Corp who served with VPW and LCM to speak up....
If your read Catchup's post on 'Destruction of Self', there are huge differences in LCM and VPW.
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CoolWaters
Here's the rub for me...
There are many threads already here that deal with this topic. Women have come forward with their experiences.
It's very difficult to do such a thing in private. To come forward out on the 'net on a public forum like this one is far more difficult than anybody can imagine. Especially this particular forum for these particular women...because there is a certain faction on this board who will and have ripped these women up one side and down the other. With pure venom and evil, imo.
Now along comes somebody and, innocently or not, asks these women to come forward again.
None of these women are doing so.
Anybody thought of why these women aren't posting their experiences here? Could it be that they've posted and posted, been ripped to pieces repeatedly, and just are not willing to do it all over again?
Last night in chat the SOSDD (same old s**t, different day) started up, too...again...
I know that I am at the point of telling people to search the threads if they really wanna know what happened in Alaska.
I'll bet those who can directly speak to the topic of this thread are thinking the same thing.
Why should anybody feel obligated to make somebody else's life easier by making their own life more difficult?
The rub of this thread is the expectation of personal sacrifice for the sole purpose that others don't have to do much for themselves.
You who are questioning really want to know? I say do the legwork yourself...if you really just want information. Otherwise you're giving all indication that you're trying to cast aspersions upon those who have come forward...and trying to cover such an attempt with an innocent face of, "well I'm just asking and it's all buried too deep to be found..." blah blah blah. IMO.
Am I being too harsh, too negative, too suspicious, too bitter?
I don't care any longer.
Unless you've put your most personal and most difficult experiences out here and been ripped to pieces in all ways possible on such a board...and have done so repeatedly with the same results...then you're in no position to judge in this matter...and you're certainly in no position to demand satisfaction of your 'curiosity'.
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Tom
Umm, yes, so?
Which, if you're talking about the context of any of those verses, I don't believe the accused denying or defending ever had anything to do with whether those verses consitituted "proof" or not. Once the conditions of those verses were met, the accused was considered guilty of the accusation - any defense he rendered or didn't render didn't change that, so THAT'S a moot point when "proof" is present.
No doubt, Pond. I referenced the verses out of context - as Jesus, Paul, & others did when they wanted to apply the truth of scripture to a different context to which, nevertheless, that truth applied, even at times "changing" the scripture reference to suit the new context while retaining the applicable truth - that truth being in this case "what consititutes proof."
Thinking is allowed. Jesus did it. Feel free to follow "in his steps" as Paul did and others.
For examples: Romans 9:27, 29, & 33. Those scriptures reference other scriptures taken out of the context of to whom they were addressed, but were as applicable in Paul's day, and, I dare say, are as applicable today, as they were applicable when first uttered in context
Bullinger said it well, "The necessity for this is constantly experienced today in adapting a quotation for any special purpose beyond its original intention. It is no less authoritative as Scripture, not does it alter the Word of God."
So? What constitutes proof all of the sudden doesn't constitute proof the second the accused dies?
You're right, Pond; these things were not addressed to us. They are for our learning.
Romans 15:4 Â For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
I don't want to sound condescending, but it is time to learn.
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WordWolf
Go ahead and review the archives.
Women have said that he-PERSONALLY-raped them,
or PERSONALLY drugged AND raped them.
Eyewitnesses have interacted with women sent to "his office"
(which was separate from all the buildings and was furnished
completely as a bedroom),
saw them leaving distraught,
then kicked off grounds,
and later put the pieces together.
Eyewitnesses have interacted with people on-staff who were
instructed to be ready and "counsel" women who had JUST
been raped by vpw.
In particular, the "Moneyhands" were mentioned as being
old hands at that.
Those who weren't "successfully counselled"
were kicked IMMEDIATELY off-grounds,
and their reputations were smeared,
as in "never speak to her-she is possessed".
Can't tell your story if nobody will hear you.
At least one person who was part of the "cleanup crew"
later confessed to knowing of this.
A reliable witness reported that vpw-after having a few drinks-
asked him to describe what an orgy is like-
and told him that they were ok with God.
Guy didn't put the pieces together until later.
We have women who say he tried UNSUCCESSFULLY to get them
to have sex with him,
and they report the SAME lines used on them as the women
he succeeded with.
We have women who reported that their
"From Birth to the Corps" autobiographies (MANDATORY papers)
included a history of sexual abuse or assault.
Many of those are the same women who were targeted for rape.
It's not a big secret that victims of something one time are often
easier to victimize later.
Were the papers specifically used to find rape victims?
One poster reported meeting vpw and Uncle Harry face-to-face
for the first time-together-
and Harry copped a feel off of her, out in the open, immediately.
Women on OTHER websites have reported being raped by him.
Ever read Schoenheit's paper on Adultery?
Do you honestly believe it wouldn't have been necessary if vpw
hadn't signed off on adultery and no-strings sex in the first place?
Ever hear about "the Lockbox?"
A number of insiders were told that this sort of thing were to be
kept secret and never to be told to other twi'ers, even.
Then there's things which escape my mind at this time.
So, all or some of them are telling the truth......
....or you're prepared to call dozens of people who have never
met a bunch of liars.
BTW,
the victims who have come forth have been insulted and had
people slander and vilify them online when they came forth.
Some posters tried to silence them immediately.
They came forth ANYWAY.
So, since we've danced this dance before, I ask you:
How many reports from victims, MINIMUM, will it take to convince you they're telling the truth?
How many reports from bystanders and those who spoke to them just afterwards,
MINIMUM, will it take to convince you that they're telling the truth?
Please provide an exact number.
Or, admit publicly that you may NEVER consider the testimony of the eyewitnesses
sufficient even if HUNDREDS of them show up,
because they're reporting something you do not WISH to hear?
When he was alive, he did a very thorough job of concealing his tracksand silencing any discussion. If not for the internet, we STILL wouldn't know.
But they DO relate to people who are alive and tell their stories NOW,
and they have witnesses.....
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WordWolf
Now,
someone pointed out that a live class they took LATER did not include references to
this.
I shall clarify (repeating myself in the process.)
vpw bought a film including 2 women and a dog engaging in sex acts.
vpw taught the Advanced class live-on grounds at hq and other places.
vpw taught the Christian Family & Sex class live-on grounds at hq and other places.
When he taught them (most or all of them) live, he showed part or all of this
pornographic movie. For BOTH classes.
Even the wierwille defenders admit this-there were hundreds of witnesses.
(Some sometimes respond that he showed them the deviant porn for a good reason.
You can find that in the archives, too.
For that matter, one claimed that vpw raped and molested corps women for their
own good as well. I can point to the thread that's on pretty quickly.)
When he put the class on TAPE like all the others, he did NOT include the
dirty movie (AFAIK, he did not.) However, in BOTH taped classes
(Advanced and CFS), he described the contents of the movie as quoted above.
I sat thru the CFS class and tried to block out this mention-but it was there when
I took it. (I took it more than once because I took EVERY class as often as I was
able to attend any session.) The above quote was from a transcript of the Advanced
class.
So,
are you going to say that ALL those who saw it run live in their classes are liars?
How about ALL those-like me-who were in taped classes where it was described-
prepared to call us-including me-liars?
If you're going to do so, please do it now, outright and in the open!
We like open dialogue here-we were UNABLE to get it in twi.
Here's a side-question.
If you're prepared to accept that ALL of us were, in fact, telling the truth,
what was the relevance of movie of deviant porn in TWO different classes.
A separate question is, why did he LAUGH at the end of the quote?
I was twisting uncomfortably away from the subject in my mind,
but it made him LAUGH. WHY did the deviant porn make the MINISTER laugh?
Is this a normal reaction, an expected reaction, to deviant porn from a minister?
And why does a minister show deviant porn to students- TWICE?
(All twi'ers were expected to take ALL classes, and the corps sat thru both
on grounds-as did the college division-not even counting any times they saw
it "on the field.")
I think these are questions that warrant REAL thought and a REAL answer.
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likeaneagle
I never took VPW's Advance class....
But, from your discriptions of his laughing at the dog/women film, I just wanna puke.
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Raf
If I tell you that another poster told me she was molested by VPW, that's hearsay.
If the other poster tells you directly, that is not hearsay. That is direct testimony. There is plenty of both in regards to what VPW has been accused of.
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likeaneagle
Raf and others,
Has VPW ever been sued during his years in charge, or is there any documents or letters inviting woman to his room or motor coach.
I know you have done your homework on plagerism's.
If those documents are out there, they should be displayed on the front page of GSC as well.
I am not trying to open wounds in those who have discussed on the boards thier personal spiritual hurt brought on by this man...I apologize to those, I am not trying to hurt anyone..
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TheHighWay
I, for one, can testify FIRST HAND that vpw played that vulgar German Shepherd sex video and seemed to enjoy every minute of it. Narrated, commented, and laughed through the whole thing.
I was in the college program. It was while he was reading through the book "Beside Manners" to the corps. We (non-corps) were allowed to sit in on the evening sessions. And he played that movie. I was 23 at the time but there were kids who had just graduated high school sitting there next to me.
I distinctly remember getting physically ill and wishing I had the guts to leave the room.
It was also during this class and others that he referred to Mrs. Weirwille as "Sharp as a meatball and twice as juicy." Yeah, that's respectful of the first lady of the way.
He was also well known for pointing out that all the women of the kingdom belong to the king, and that David didn't do anything wrong in taking a friend's wife to bed -- only became wrong when he had the husband killed to keep the wife.
As a PS -- I had leadership tell me that VP told Craig he needed to loosen up sexually if he were ever going to be able to lead God's people, but I have no idea how he came by that information, and therefore it is definately hearsay.
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rascal
Maybe not Likeaneagle, but that is what happens....
The information of personal first hand accounts has already been told repeatedly here. You have been told where you can find it in several locations...the sexual abuse thread, and the suicide thread, to name a couple of places.
You can read what word wolf wrote as an accurate summary of what has been related first hand....I can confirm the personal accounts were posted of everything he wrote.
It has been explained why it is difficult to come forth, after you have told your story and people start referring to you as a *perpetually whining victim* or a *liar* or *attention seeking perpetual victim* *the drama queen of sexual abuse*....*it takes two to tango* to name just a few epitaphs applied to those with guts enough to tell what really happened...after a while you tend to say wtf....you just shut up.
No nobody ever charged vpw, they never had the chance to tell their story...as they were escorted off grounds, declared posessed, and people told to avoid all contact lest they become infected as well.
That happened to several people....but with the internet now available ...they are FINALLY able to tell their side of the story.
The personal first hand accounts are out there....if the truth means something to you then for goodness sakes.... seek it out yourself....Try to understand the effort that it cost`s to relate these experiences .......don`t expect people to go through it yet again and the ensuing barage of insults, personal attacks, and attacks on their veracity and integrety in order to simply satisfy someones personal curiosity.
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Tom
That VP believed that all of his activities were justified biblically is no secret. He "documented" extramarital (commonly characterized as adultery) sex "biblically" to hundreds of WC, myself included. Of course, it was SUPPOSED to be kept a secret by us from non-WC because they couldn't handle it.
Actually, VP wasn't sure that we could handle it, but he said that he had to tell someone the truth about the freedom we have in Christ, & we were the best he had.
He also said that there were people among us - my particular corps - who would not keep that trust but would use what he was teaching against the ministry and would thereby destroy it. Perhaps John Lynn remembers that; he was there:). Can anyone say "paper on adultery?"
So, now you know what REALLY destroyed the ministry. Hm, it seems like I've lost my tongue inside my cheek somewhere. Or did I?
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oldiesman
Yeah Eagle, don't expect people to go thru it yet again after we've all heard it again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again [/size] and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and againand again and againand again and againand again and againand again and again
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excathedra
patron saint of sexual abuse here ;)
i, for one, would die if my story was "showcased." even after all these stupid years it still messes with your head. and it's very difficult to tell, believe it or not
i remember i was in my first year of college taking the pfal class. veepee showed up in town to be the surprise guest at the 12th session. like the pope coming to your confirmation or something.
my meeting with the holy man of god:
i went to visit the girls way home and he was there. i walked past the bathroom and the door was open and he was blowdrying his hair and standing there stark naked. while i was walking into the wall, he smiled this big lecherous smile
now of course any normal person would have booked right then and there. but i did not really have normal boundaries.... (i guess because of being a victim of child sexual abuse)
when i asked my "mature in the word" college wow undershepherder about it, she told me when you become that spiritual, flesh doesn't really mean anything sexual or whatever....
and THAT is not the rest of the story :)
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oldiesman
and again
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likeaneagle
Rascal and Highway,
I understand where you are coming from...I am not expecting anyone who was a victim of sexual abuse to repeat thier accounts..
It should be on the front page....that's all.
I will go read those posts, Im sure I havent read them all...
This is where I expect Greasytech to jump in and say here they are!
I pray for cont'd healing to those effected by this s***t..
I know of people who LCM misused them..and have gone thru extensive therapy..
Im trying to connect the dots, thats all. It's friggin hard!!!!
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skipC
Oldies, at times you can be really cruel !
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likeaneagle
Exie and om, we must have been posting at the same time..I missed your responces.
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Tom
Hang in there, Ex.
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CoolWaters
As it should be, imo...because of exactly what has been done on this thread to make it hard on people who speak up.
It should be hard to find the stories...otherwise the creeps on this thread would make GSC about nothing but their creepiness...as has been exemplified.
When we post from our hearts, we're often posting when our hearts are touched deeply. There's no cataloguing what happened into nice, neat, easy-to-find files. That's not how it all happened, that's not how it feels inside, that's not how it's remembered, and that's not how our lives are lived.
Waiting on GT to come along and post all the places this is discussed? Why? What's so friggin' difficult about doing a search?
And, quite frankly, I'm with ExC on this...who the ph*** wants this stuff showcased, anyway? What kind of voyeurism is that?
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Tom
QUOTE(excathedra @ Jul 14 2006, 10:24 AM)
and THAT is not the rest of the story
I understand What you're saying. There you go. Connect that dot.
Oh, is that all? Front page. Do you hear yourself?
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Tom Strange
ahhh... you beat me to it verbal... I was going to simply post:
"I have no doubt that OJ killed his wife, I have no need to see a videotape or confront him"
Also... I doubt that 'the killers' were avid golfers as his actions would have you believe...
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