Real proof?? What would you consider REAL proof? How many ladies have to state that it happened to them? How many folks have to tell you what Dorothea said about her own husband? Real proof? What? You want a video or something?
Well, read Karl Kahler's book a couple of years back and enjoyed it. I know we have proof of LCM messing around. But I only found out about VPW after his death. Do we have any real proof of the motorcoach escapades and having TWI women report to him for sexual favors?
You know, that is a REALLY, REALLY, REALLY bad question to ask around here. Particularly for somebody who's been around gsc as long as you have.
If you are looking for a 'smoking gun' or something, couldn't you have said it a better way? Like, "I skim over most of the posts by you gals who claim things happened, so know that I'm not really listening..."
Eagle there are many first hand accounts told here by trusted long time posters. The way your question is phrased, it seems to call into question their veracity.
There are accounts from other people on the John Juedes *messiah 7* site as well.
There are specific threads where some of these stories are related....Look for the suicide thread and the adultery thread from a year or so back.
Some were very young and trusting..the lies they were told in order to comply with his demands were sick.
More than one who refused were given a drink by the bus driver c8ris g**r... (the drugging was even said to be confirmed at one point by John L*n*) they awoke later to find themselves in vpw` bed in the coach.
One 17 yr old reported being thrown off of the wow field a week or two after not complying with wierwilles demand. She was declared posessed and her family warned.
What he did went far beyond *adulterous affairs* when he targeted young teenaged women and used his positon of power to manipulate, and his authority as a minister to coerce the girls into servicing him as their Godly duty and function in the body of Christ, or the way to achieve healing from child hood sexual abuse.
He was a cold, calcutating predator....*adulterous affairs* would indicate that he was on equal footing with the teenagers that he seduced and molested.
Well, read Karl Kahler's book a couple of years back and enjoyed it. I know we have proof of LCM messing around. But I only found out about VPW after his death. Do we have any real proof of the motorcoach escapades and having TWI women report to him for sexual favors?
Those of you getting all up on your high horse should just calm down and answer the question politely. I knew Eagle back in way days and he is a very kind gentle soul who would never intentionally hurt anyone. He just asked a question....or aren't questions allowed here?
Those of you getting all up on your high horse should just calm down and answer the question politely. I knew Eagle back in way days and he is a very kind gentle soul who would never intentionally hurt anyone. He just asked a question....or aren't questions allowed here?
Rick
Rick,
Fair enough,
I think it's fair to ask a definition of "real" proof when he asked the question, Do we have any real proof of the motorcoach escapades and having TWI women report to him for sexual favors?.
Sorry guys, but I have only posted here over 500 times to several thousand of others and I haven't been at GS as much or every night or anything like that. This means that if you had threads about it, I certainly missed them.
I wasn't defending Wierwille, but actually trying to round up the people that really and honestly knew or witnessed it or experienced it. From time to time even a new ex-TWI person will come here and ask that question never knowing the guy. I suspect he did do what he did. I read John Juedes stories but wasn't sure if they were factual or not.
Hey markomalley, what are you doing with that blue dress?
I'll take some advice here and search adultery threads and hope I come up with something. BTW, I have done some things that have REALLY p....d off the Wierwillites recently. I don't have a vendetta against him, just disagree with him a lot. The motorcoach thing gets me upset but before I start telling people about it I would really like to know before I spread rumors or stories that they have a basis for fact. I am sure they do and I hope to find them. Thanks, guys.
Why not stop in the live chat one night and just ask the ladies yourself? I know of a couple that come in there that VP drugged and raped without consent. If you are really interested and not out to point a finger, I'm sure they would be more than happy to talk to you.
I'm not naming names here, they can identify themself to you if they feel up to discussing all VP put them thru. It's not my place to put their names out there without prior permission.
I've seen from your posts that you seem to be a good person Eagle, that's why I am responding to you. Please, come in chat and visit with us in the evenings when most are in.
That is cool Eagle....sometimes things get a bit testy because there have been times when women have shared their experiences here, that folks called them liars or pointed a finger of blame....some how made it their fault and so forth.
sharing an experience is not "proof" . this is an open public forum in which anyone can write anything they want about anyone.
and they do .
whether a person believes what another poster may say is up to them .
proof to me is alot more than what an internet forum may say about another person.
every poster draws their own conclusion..
evidence that given facts everyone would agree on the conclusion, is how I define proof. such as the DNA on the blue dress.
Many at greasespot conclude a posters account and their own personal relationship with them is enough proof for them to believe the accusations.
because of this different process of how "proof" is defined , posters such as Rascals above post assume I may be calling these personal testimony a liar or saying they are being "blamed".
I am not I am merely stating my defination of what 'proof" is different than their own.
so I am also looking for "proof".. how one defines that would be up to the individual wouldnt it?
Maybe you could define exactly what your looking for as "proof".
being as he has been dead for several decades now and as far as I know never was charged or even accussed while alive I do suppose it would be a difficult thing to come to a absolute truth about.
Pond makes a good point. I think I will have to get to know the accusers and go by my gut instinct. They might really be victims. It is entirely possible that Wierwille is innocent. But I had heard of his sexual compulsions in the late 80s from some pretty good sources. Not adultery but his fascination with sex. Kind of weird. Even came out in his teachings.
Does anyone agree to that? Otherwise, I was going to close the thread or let people post as they will. I thin personal IMs are better and more private at this point.
Deuteronomy 17:6 Â At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
Deuteronomy 19:15 Â One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Matthew 18:16 Â But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
2 Corinthians 13:1  ¶This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
1 Timothy 5:19 Â Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
Hebrews 10:28 Â He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
I go along with that - depending. Sometimes 10 witnesses can see the same thing and have 10 different stories about it. But we're not talking about stories here, just proof about "TWI women report[ing] to him for sexual favors?" Apparently, according to this standard, what we need is one of the women & one other who will testify to make the two.
I think, if memory serves, we have that in one or more instances; although, I don't know the specifics or the witnesses.
You know, "proof." Personally, I don't need that degree of proof.
But I understand your question, Eagle. I think it would be a good idea to gather the info the "proof" into one place. Everyone who was ever involved with TWI - well, ALMOST everyone has had that question at one point or another. It would be nice if it didn't take so long for someone to find out.
On the other hand, the women who have come forward - although they've been public about it - do they really want what they posted to be in its own little - or not so little - forum area on GS for all to see - maybe next to "Just plain silly" in a forum called "Just plain sick?"
However, again if memory serves, it seems to me that whenever I have seen one of the women come forward here on GS (& like Eagle, I think I've missed some of the threads that have been explicit AND numerous with testimony), it has been after a long drawn out back & forth argument about whether or not it REALLY happened - there is the Wierwille loyalty factor, and we all know that urban legends develop a life and a following of their own. Until, finally, one of the women reading gets tired of it and comes out AGAIN and says so. THAT can't be any fun for them either.
But anyway, simple answer - I think we do have a couple of instances of what would stand up to the biblical requirements for proof sufficient to lead to consequences. But, you're not going to get it from my mouth Eagle because I don't KNOW anything more than what I just said (except individual statements) - which actually is just fine with me.
....sometimes things get a bit testy because there have been times when women have shared their experiences here, that folks called them liars or pointed a finger of blame....some how made it their fault and so forth.
And that particular tactic preceeded the GSC, and started as soon as women began sharing
their stories- and especially when their stories all began fitting together.
Pond makes a good point. I think I will have to get to know the accusers and go by my gut instinct. They might really be victims. It is entirely possible that Wierwille is innocent. But I had heard of his sexual compulsions in the late 80s from some pretty good sources. Not adultery but his fascination with sex. Kind of weird. Even came out in his teachings.
Does anyone agree to that? Otherwise, I was going to close the thread or let people post as they will. I thin personal IMs are better and more private at this point.
Like this quote from the Advanced class on videotape?
===========
"I have in my possession, a film, which I'm not gonna show ya, not
because I'm afraid to show it to ya, it's just because I don't have time
to do everything. But, I have a film of two beautiful ladies
endeavoring to have intercourse with a German short-hair dog - eh, not a
German - German shepherd, dog. And the damned dog's got more sense than
the women, ya know. (laughter) They're workin' on him, they're
the bible verses you metion are saying go to the person you accuse and then with two or three witness..
vpw is dead been dead for a long while no one accused him while alive or if they have it was never been documented, unless something comes up on this thread .
he can not deny or defend being dust now.
your reference is out of context.
the verses you use are talking about taking care of issues in the church with the other believers and how do address it face to face. The point being to AVOID FAlse accusation and cheap talk amoung the members about one another which was hurting the group as a whole.
cant be done with vpw. his face is long gone by now .
i do not believe those verses address dead people and what people may say about them at all.
I took cfs in 1984 it was a live class taught by the Branch leader.
Some other speakers from the area as well .
Not vpw and they did not show that movie I would have remembered that for sure .
I think he was trying to be hip and cool and get along with the "kids" and I think he thought way to much of himself and I think that movie had no reason in a christian or anyones life.
he was possessed with the thought of people being possessed .
but is that proof his idea of sexual boundaries are wrong or proof he had sex with his followers?
sharing an experience is not "proof" . this is an open public forum in which anyone can write anything they want about anyone.
There are different levels of "proof".
In a many civil cases, the level of proof is called the "preponderance of the evidence". This is when the judge or jury is persuaded that the facts are "most likely" in favor either the defendant or the plaintiff.
There is also a bit higher level that is known as "clear and convincing evidence" which is used in certain civil matters.
In a criminal case, the rules of evidence are stricter. The evidence must pursade the judge or jury of the guilt of the defendant ... "beyond a reasonable doubt". Hearsay evidence is generally not allowed.
I know this is not a court of law, but an eyewitness account (experience) is considered "evidence" in a court of law -- and sure, the credibility of the witness(s) must be considered.
So in regards to VPW, it depends upon level of proof that you demand in order to "convict" him of the things he has been accused of. Do we want a criminal conviction or a civil judgment ? --- Or do we just want to know what most likely happened?
As for me, the evidence I that I have seen and heard is "clear and convincing." However, in a strict sense, some if it could be considered "hearsay", (he said, she said) and would not be allowed in a criminal case.
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likeaneagle
Your right Eagle, I would like to know that too!
Thanks for bringing this up.
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Sudo
Eagle,
Real proof?? What would you consider REAL proof? How many ladies have to state that it happened to them? How many folks have to tell you what Dorothea said about her own husband? Real proof? What? You want a video or something?
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excathedra
ohman i'll get back to you
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ex10
Yes.
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markomalley
You know, that is a REALLY, REALLY, REALLY bad question to ask around here. Particularly for somebody who's been around gsc as long as you have.
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CoolWaters
Tried to keep my keyboard shut up on this one...
But DANG Eagle!
If you are looking for a 'smoking gun' or something, couldn't you have said it a better way? Like, "I skim over most of the posts by you gals who claim things happened, so know that I'm not really listening..."
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rascal
Eagle there are many first hand accounts told here by trusted long time posters. The way your question is phrased, it seems to call into question their veracity.
There are accounts from other people on the John Juedes *messiah 7* site as well.
There are specific threads where some of these stories are related....Look for the suicide thread and the adultery thread from a year or so back.
Some were very young and trusting..the lies they were told in order to comply with his demands were sick.
More than one who refused were given a drink by the bus driver c8ris g**r... (the drugging was even said to be confirmed at one point by John L*n*) they awoke later to find themselves in vpw` bed in the coach.
One 17 yr old reported being thrown off of the wow field a week or two after not complying with wierwilles demand. She was declared posessed and her family warned.
What he did went far beyond *adulterous affairs* when he targeted young teenaged women and used his positon of power to manipulate, and his authority as a minister to coerce the girls into servicing him as their Godly duty and function in the body of Christ, or the way to achieve healing from child hood sexual abuse.
He was a cold, calcutating predator....*adulterous affairs* would indicate that he was on equal footing with the teenagers that he seduced and molested.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Yes...absolutely.
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Bluzeman
Those of you getting all up on your high horse should just calm down and answer the question politely. I knew Eagle back in way days and he is a very kind gentle soul who would never intentionally hurt anyone. He just asked a question....or aren't questions allowed here?
Rick
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markomalley
Rick,
Fair enough,
I think it's fair to ask a definition of "real" proof when he asked the question, Do we have any real proof of the motorcoach escapades and having TWI women report to him for sexual favors?.
Does he want a blue dress?
What constitutes "real proof"?
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Eagle
Hi Rick!
How's it going?
Sorry guys, but I have only posted here over 500 times to several thousand of others and I haven't been at GS as much or every night or anything like that. This means that if you had threads about it, I certainly missed them.
I wasn't defending Wierwille, but actually trying to round up the people that really and honestly knew or witnessed it or experienced it. From time to time even a new ex-TWI person will come here and ask that question never knowing the guy. I suspect he did do what he did. I read John Juedes stories but wasn't sure if they were factual or not.
Hey markomalley, what are you doing with that blue dress?
I'll take some advice here and search adultery threads and hope I come up with something. BTW, I have done some things that have REALLY p....d off the Wierwillites recently. I don't have a vendetta against him, just disagree with him a lot. The motorcoach thing gets me upset but before I start telling people about it I would really like to know before I spread rumors or stories that they have a basis for fact. I am sure they do and I hope to find them. Thanks, guys.
Eagle
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BikerBabe
Why not stop in the live chat one night and just ask the ladies yourself? I know of a couple that come in there that VP drugged and raped without consent. If you are really interested and not out to point a finger, I'm sure they would be more than happy to talk to you.
I'm not naming names here, they can identify themself to you if they feel up to discussing all VP put them thru. It's not my place to put their names out there without prior permission.
I've seen from your posts that you seem to be a good person Eagle, that's why I am responding to you. Please, come in chat and visit with us in the evenings when most are in.
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Eagle
Okay, I'll do that and I won't need names...
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rascal
That is cool Eagle....sometimes things get a bit testy because there have been times when women have shared their experiences here, that folks called them liars or pointed a finger of blame....some how made it their fault and so forth.
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pond
sharing an experience is not "proof" . this is an open public forum in which anyone can write anything they want about anyone.
and they do .
whether a person believes what another poster may say is up to them .
proof to me is alot more than what an internet forum may say about another person.
every poster draws their own conclusion..
evidence that given facts everyone would agree on the conclusion, is how I define proof. such as the DNA on the blue dress.
Many at greasespot conclude a posters account and their own personal relationship with them is enough proof for them to believe the accusations.
because of this different process of how "proof" is defined , posters such as Rascals above post assume I may be calling these personal testimony a liar or saying they are being "blamed".
I am not I am merely stating my defination of what 'proof" is different than their own.
so I am also looking for "proof".. how one defines that would be up to the individual wouldnt it?
Maybe you could define exactly what your looking for as "proof".
being as he has been dead for several decades now and as far as I know never was charged or even accussed while alive I do suppose it would be a difficult thing to come to a absolute truth about.
good luck eagle , Im glad you asked the question.
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Eagle
Pond makes a good point. I think I will have to get to know the accusers and go by my gut instinct. They might really be victims. It is entirely possible that Wierwille is innocent. But I had heard of his sexual compulsions in the late 80s from some pretty good sources. Not adultery but his fascination with sex. Kind of weird. Even came out in his teachings.
Does anyone agree to that? Otherwise, I was going to close the thread or let people post as they will. I thin personal IMs are better and more private at this point.
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Tom
Deuteronomy 17:6 Â At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.
Deuteronomy 19:15 Â One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.
Matthew 18:16 Â But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
2 Corinthians 13:1  ¶This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.
1 Timothy 5:19 Â Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
Hebrews 10:28 Â He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
I go along with that - depending. Sometimes 10 witnesses can see the same thing and have 10 different stories about it. But we're not talking about stories here, just proof about "TWI women report[ing] to him for sexual favors?" Apparently, according to this standard, what we need is one of the women & one other who will testify to make the two.
I think, if memory serves, we have that in one or more instances; although, I don't know the specifics or the witnesses.
You know, "proof." Personally, I don't need that degree of proof.
But I understand your question, Eagle. I think it would be a good idea to gather the info the "proof" into one place. Everyone who was ever involved with TWI - well, ALMOST everyone has had that question at one point or another. It would be nice if it didn't take so long for someone to find out.
On the other hand, the women who have come forward - although they've been public about it - do they really want what they posted to be in its own little - or not so little - forum area on GS for all to see - maybe next to "Just plain silly" in a forum called "Just plain sick?"
However, again if memory serves, it seems to me that whenever I have seen one of the women come forward here on GS (& like Eagle, I think I've missed some of the threads that have been explicit AND numerous with testimony), it has been after a long drawn out back & forth argument about whether or not it REALLY happened - there is the Wierwille loyalty factor, and we all know that urban legends develop a life and a following of their own. Until, finally, one of the women reading gets tired of it and comes out AGAIN and says so. THAT can't be any fun for them either.
But anyway, simple answer - I think we do have a couple of instances of what would stand up to the biblical requirements for proof sufficient to lead to consequences. But, you're not going to get it from my mouth Eagle because I don't KNOW anything more than what I just said (except individual statements) - which actually is just fine with me.
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Tom
Oh, yeah - that's where Martindale got it from. Wierwille taught it to quite a few WC years.
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WordWolf
And that particular tactic preceeded the GSC, and started as soon as women began sharing
their stories- and especially when their stories all began fitting together.
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WordWolf
Like this quote from the Advanced class on videotape?
===========
"I have in my possession, a film, which I'm not gonna show ya, not
because I'm afraid to show it to ya, it's just because I don't have time
to do everything. But, I have a film of two beautiful ladies
endeavoring to have intercourse with a German short-hair dog - eh, not a
German - German shepherd, dog. And the damned dog's got more sense than
the women, ya know. (laughter) They're workin' on him, they're
masturbating him, they're sucking him, they're doing everything, pulling
him up to 'em. The dumb dog's all the time working back, trying, but he
wants to get away from 'em. Those two women are totally possessed, and
- heh-heh."
=========
That's regarding the film he mentioned in the CFS class AND the Advanced
class (taped), and showed groups who took it LIVE,
and some people confirmed he showed it when under-18s took them-
which is a crime in the US.
Or when he told lcm that he'd have to "loosen up sexually" or something else
entirely?
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pond
tom
the bible verses you metion are saying go to the person you accuse and then with two or three witness..
vpw is dead been dead for a long while no one accused him while alive or if they have it was never been documented, unless something comes up on this thread .
he can not deny or defend being dust now.
your reference is out of context.
the verses you use are talking about taking care of issues in the church with the other believers and how do address it face to face. The point being to AVOID FAlse accusation and cheap talk amoung the members about one another which was hurting the group as a whole.
cant be done with vpw. his face is long gone by now .
i do not believe those verses address dead people and what people may say about them at all.
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pond
I took cfs in 1984 it was a live class taught by the Branch leader.
Some other speakers from the area as well .
Not vpw and they did not show that movie I would have remembered that for sure .
I think he was trying to be hip and cool and get along with the "kids" and I think he thought way to much of himself and I think that movie had no reason in a christian or anyones life.
he was possessed with the thought of people being possessed .
but is that proof his idea of sexual boundaries are wrong or proof he had sex with his followers?
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Tom Strange
I also believe people did accuse him... then they were conveniently 'whisked away' and slandered mercilessly...
...which was just one of the many reasons why there weren't more accusations.
I can add.
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Goey
There are different levels of "proof".
In a many civil cases, the level of proof is called the "preponderance of the evidence". This is when the judge or jury is persuaded that the facts are "most likely" in favor either the defendant or the plaintiff.
There is also a bit higher level that is known as "clear and convincing evidence" which is used in certain civil matters.
In a criminal case, the rules of evidence are stricter. The evidence must pursade the judge or jury of the guilt of the defendant ... "beyond a reasonable doubt". Hearsay evidence is generally not allowed.
I know this is not a court of law, but an eyewitness account (experience) is considered "evidence" in a court of law -- and sure, the credibility of the witness(s) must be considered.
So in regards to VPW, it depends upon level of proof that you demand in order to "convict" him of the things he has been accused of. Do we want a criminal conviction or a civil judgment ? --- Or do we just want to know what most likely happened?
As for me, the evidence I that I have seen and heard is "clear and convincing." However, in a strict sense, some if it could be considered "hearsay", (he said, she said) and would not be allowed in a criminal case.
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