I may still be 'way-brain' but I envision more of a family environment, where how close you are to Dad counts. I may screw-up this idea or that idea, but the fact that I am trying and that I talk to Dad often 'counts' for way more than my goofs.
Regardless of each person's doctrine, some will never really be seated at the Heavenly Dinner table. Whereas many of us will be there seated across from each other after having held totally opposite views on doctrine.
I don't believe that there is one supreme being with the ultimate power to make those decisions and judgements, so therefore I don't believe that there is any tallying or scorekeeping going on.
My opinion about what the afterlife is like is far from settled, but I think that we'll all be surprised to some extent.
"My opinion about what the afterlife is like is far from settled, but I think that we'll all be surprised to some extent."
On that I agree wholeheartedly!
The Jewish sages interpret the book of Job radically differently than TWI. In Job, the "adversary" is not "a devil" but one of God's angels. This angel's job is to report to God on Rosh Hashannah (sp) all of the evil that man has committed in the past year. There is likewise, a counterpart. An angel who stands before God and reports all of the good that man has committed.
Now, I do not believe that this is necessarily what literally takes place, but I think there is a lesson to be learned. The idea being that despite our shortcomings, we should try to keep the balances weighted in favor of the good we do.
Beyond that, I believe God looks on the heart and understands that the good we would do, we do not and the evil which we would not do, we do.
Finally, I think we are on this earth to learn and mature and a large part of that process is making mistakes.
that's really my point, tom. scorekeeping, i think, is what WE do. so we attribute that kind of behavior to God, too. personally, i don't think God's like that at all.
those of you who have kids, are you keeping score? i know i'm not. but somehow we're supposed to believe that God works on a merit system, rather than a love system.
I believe in a scorecard. Some call it Karma. There are many ways to describe and compare it in personal terms and impersonal terms. As I embrace the idea now, we cannot remove karma we generated in this life In This Life. Our next life is likely to be an animal. Amphibian or higher. 1-out-of-12 lives is human, so try not to fritter away this one.
The Father analogy is good for me since I am "married with children." And the mention of the book of Job caught my eye because I do so love that book. You remind me I need to study it again. Yes I think the great omnipotent powers of the great Atman has no choice but to "keep score," albeit I wouldn't put it in those terms...maybe I'd use the Law of conservation of energy...
"…do you think God is keeping score? is he keeping files on every one of us, checking off "naughty" and "nice" boxes like santa claus? and what's his standard, the "Word of God" that none of us can seem to agree on? how can we be held accountable to a "standard" like that?
i don't know, i'd like to think God has better things to do than tally up our hits and misses. seems to me the whole scorekeeping thing is strictly a human preoccupation."
Good point – I think a lot of people struggle with the idea of what's important to God. A lawyer asked Jesus "which is the great commandment in the law?" [Matthew 22:36]. Jesus said the intent for everything in the Law and the Prophets is love for God and your neighbor [Matthew 22: 37-40]. In my opinion, that's a fairly simple standard to strive for.
I think there's some truth in your saying scorekeeping is a human preoccupation – especially how we deal with fellow humans. In another instance, a lawyer asked Jesus "what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" [Luke 10:25]. Jesus responded back by asking the lawyer "what is written in the Law?" [Luke 10:26]. The lawyer gives the same answer as Jesus did in Matthew 22, saying love God and your neighbor. Jesus said he answered correctly – but the lawyer wanting to justify himself asked, "Who is my neighbor?" Then Jesus tells the parable of a certain man during his travels being stripped and beaten by robbers. Three people saw this man: a priest, a Levite and a Samaritan – but only the Samaritan stopped and helped him out [Luke 10: 30-35].
I think it's interesting that Jesus turned the lawyer's question around by asking him, "Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers' hands?" [Luke 10:36]. Sometimes I think we decide who is our neighbor in need based on our assessment of their belief system. Instead of me trying to figure out if someone is worthy of being my neighbor, I'm to ask if I'm proving myself to be a good neighbor. Jesus' question re-focuses our attention back to a simple standard – love FOR your neighbor – and I might add – regardless of anyone's creed, seeing how Jesus picked a Samaritan to be the hero. Knowing how little the Jews thought of the Samaritans he might as well have made the hero an unbeliever!
Sprawled Out
"…scorekeeping, i think, is what WE do. so we attribute that kind of behavior to God, too. personally, i don't think God's like that at all. those of you who have kids, are you keeping score? i know i'm not. but somehow we're supposed to believe that God works on a merit system, rather than a love system."
I think you're confusing the issue. In a family setting the dynamics of the family relationships should be based on love. However, in the same family – I think there should be some type of merit system for rewards and punishment [or perhaps "discipline" might be a better word]. The parents should love all the kids equally – no matter what they do. Parents usually give kids an allowance for chores done around the house – perhaps withholding the money if the job was not done right – and then giving it to them when it's corrected. Would a parent just let it slide if they found out their child shoplifted from a store? Both scenarios revolve around a merit system – in a family based on love.
Thinking about your argument, that God either works on a merit basis or a love basis – I personally believe it's both – depending on what you're talking about. If you're talking about one's eternal state [where they end up for all eternity] I believe we're dealing with God's love. "God is love" as it says in I John 4:16 – love does not over step freedom of will. Jesus lamenting over Jerusalem's stubbornness in Matthew 23:37 said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling." [NASV] God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son – but it is up to each person to accept or reject His love.
No one can coerce another into loving them. Hell may seem an odd thing to bring up in the same context as love but it appears to me that God shows His love for His creation by honoring their choice. Would He make someone go to heaven if they didn't want to? Since God is love I think He has to allow a way for those who do not wish to spend eternity with Him have a "place of their own" separated from God – from a biblical perspective that would be hell.
In my opinion our eternal state [where we end up for all eternity] is not based on works - however, the quality of our eternal state is! Now we're dealing with the merit system. Ecclesiastes 3:17 says God will judge both the righteous and the wicked concerning every matter and every deed. I Corinthians 3:8 indicates those who work for God will receive their own reward according to their own labor. There are degrees of punishment in hell – also based on the merit system. Jesus speaking about deceptive, greedy, thieving religious leaders said their punishment would be more severe, Mark 12:38-40: "Beware of the scribes who like to walk around in long robes, and like respectful greetings in the market places, and chief seats in the synagogues, and places of honor at banquets, who devour widows' houses, and for appearance's sake offer long prayers; they will receive greater condemnation." [NASV]
If it isn't important if we win or lose, then why do they keep score? - Robert Klein
That's a good one! When I'd hear someone say, "It doesn't matter if you win or lose - it's how you play the game" - I would say to myself, "so what if I cheat - that's how I play the game."
Do parents keep score? No--we know our kids weak areas and try to strengthen them. Not every bad decision is from 'evil' intent, many times it is from lack of experience or lack of thinking things through. Consequences may include more oversight from the parent rather than punishment.
Teaching kids that hard work, including following necessary directions, brings rewards can be done positively.
I can't really see a loving relationship being a score keeping one.
That said, I do believe that people get what they earn in life, though not necessary in this life. But I don't think it is a God who passes out the rewards or consequences, just the way the system works--like seeds planted, grow.
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Galen
Tally-sheet? Score-card?
No, I dont think so.
I may still be 'way-brain' but I envision more of a family environment, where how close you are to Dad counts. I may screw-up this idea or that idea, but the fact that I am trying and that I talk to Dad often 'counts' for way more than my goofs.
Regardless of each person's doctrine, some will never really be seated at the Heavenly Dinner table. Whereas many of us will be there seated across from each other after having held totally opposite views on doctrine.
Sorry that that was to harsh TWI speak.
:)
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sirguessalot
yes. God is keeping score of every thing
but this is so radically unpartial...cuz i am merely speaking of divine memory
...that which was, is and will be
and this is a 'book' that never ends
causes and effects without end
there is comfort in the nature of Mystery
for then we can finally rest as Abraham did
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Oakspear
I don't believe that there is one supreme being with the ultimate power to make those decisions and judgements, so therefore I don't believe that there is any tallying or scorekeeping going on.
My opinion about what the afterlife is like is far from settled, but I think that we'll all be surprised to some extent.
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Abigail
"My opinion about what the afterlife is like is far from settled, but I think that we'll all be surprised to some extent."
On that I agree wholeheartedly!
The Jewish sages interpret the book of Job radically differently than TWI. In Job, the "adversary" is not "a devil" but one of God's angels. This angel's job is to report to God on Rosh Hashannah (sp) all of the evil that man has committed in the past year. There is likewise, a counterpart. An angel who stands before God and reports all of the good that man has committed.
Now, I do not believe that this is necessarily what literally takes place, but I think there is a lesson to be learned. The idea being that despite our shortcomings, we should try to keep the balances weighted in favor of the good we do.
Beyond that, I believe God looks on the heart and understands that the good we would do, we do not and the evil which we would not do, we do.
Finally, I think we are on this earth to learn and mature and a large part of that process is making mistakes.
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TheInvisibleDan
Perhaps we will not be surprised at all after we shed these mortal gadgets.
It may be like returning from a short trip, or as awakening from a dream.
Then we'll do it all over again.
Immortals are easily bored.
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T-Bone
I think we live in a moral universe - that the way we conduct ourselves in this life has a bearing upon the next.
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Tom Strange
...last I checked it was 2-1 in the third period...
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sprawled out
that's really my point, tom. scorekeeping, i think, is what WE do. so we attribute that kind of behavior to God, too. personally, i don't think God's like that at all.
those of you who have kids, are you keeping score? i know i'm not. but somehow we're supposed to believe that God works on a merit system, rather than a love system.
ugh.
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Carl Smuda
I believe in a scorecard. Some call it Karma. There are many ways to describe and compare it in personal terms and impersonal terms. As I embrace the idea now, we cannot remove karma we generated in this life In This Life. Our next life is likely to be an animal. Amphibian or higher. 1-out-of-12 lives is human, so try not to fritter away this one.
The Father analogy is good for me since I am "married with children." And the mention of the book of Job caught my eye because I do so love that book. You remind me I need to study it again. Yes I think the great omnipotent powers of the great Atman has no choice but to "keep score," albeit I wouldn't put it in those terms...maybe I'd use the Law of conservation of energy...
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T-Bone
Good point – I think a lot of people struggle with the idea of what's important to God. A lawyer asked Jesus "which is the great commandment in the law?" [Matthew 22:36]. Jesus said the intent for everything in the Law and the Prophets is love for God and your neighbor [Matthew 22: 37-40]. In my opinion, that's a fairly simple standard to strive for.
I think there's some truth in your saying scorekeeping is a human preoccupation – especially how we deal with fellow humans. In another instance, a lawyer asked Jesus "what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" [Luke 10:25]. Jesus responded back by asking the lawyer "what is written in the Law?" [Luke 10:26]. The lawyer gives the same answer as Jesus did in Matthew 22, saying love God and your neighbor. Jesus said he answered correctly – but the lawyer wanting to justify himself asked, "Who is my neighbor?" Then Jesus tells the parable of a certain man during his travels being stripped and beaten by robbers. Three people saw this man: a priest, a Levite and a Samaritan – but only the Samaritan stopped and helped him out [Luke 10: 30-35].
I think it's interesting that Jesus turned the lawyer's question around by asking him, "Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers' hands?" [Luke 10:36]. Sometimes I think we decide who is our neighbor in need based on our assessment of their belief system. Instead of me trying to figure out if someone is worthy of being my neighbor, I'm to ask if I'm proving myself to be a good neighbor. Jesus' question re-focuses our attention back to a simple standard – love FOR your neighbor – and I might add – regardless of anyone's creed, seeing how Jesus picked a Samaritan to be the hero. Knowing how little the Jews thought of the Samaritans he might as well have made the hero an unbeliever!
I think you're confusing the issue. In a family setting the dynamics of the family relationships should be based on love. However, in the same family – I think there should be some type of merit system for rewards and punishment [or perhaps "discipline" might be a better word]. The parents should love all the kids equally – no matter what they do. Parents usually give kids an allowance for chores done around the house – perhaps withholding the money if the job was not done right – and then giving it to them when it's corrected. Would a parent just let it slide if they found out their child shoplifted from a store? Both scenarios revolve around a merit system – in a family based on love.
Thinking about your argument, that God either works on a merit basis or a love basis – I personally believe it's both – depending on what you're talking about. If you're talking about one's eternal state [where they end up for all eternity] I believe we're dealing with God's love. "God is love" as it says in I John 4:16 – love does not over step freedom of will. Jesus lamenting over Jerusalem's stubbornness in Matthew 23:37 said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling." [NASV] God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son – but it is up to each person to accept or reject His love.
No one can coerce another into loving them. Hell may seem an odd thing to bring up in the same context as love but it appears to me that God shows His love for His creation by honoring their choice. Would He make someone go to heaven if they didn't want to? Since God is love I think He has to allow a way for those who do not wish to spend eternity with Him have a "place of their own" separated from God – from a biblical perspective that would be hell.
In my opinion our eternal state [where we end up for all eternity] is not based on works - however, the quality of our eternal state is! Now we're dealing with the merit system. Ecclesiastes 3:17 says God will judge both the righteous and the wicked concerning every matter and every deed. I Corinthians 3:8 indicates those who work for God will receive their own reward according to their own labor. There are degrees of punishment in hell – also based on the merit system. Jesus speaking about deceptive, greedy, thieving religious leaders said their punishment would be more severe, Mark 12:38-40: "Beware of the scribes who like to walk around in long robes, and like respectful greetings in the market places, and chief seats in the synagogues, and places of honor at banquets, who devour widows' houses, and for appearance's sake offer long prayers; they will receive greater condemnation." [NASV]
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bliss
^_^ You took the words right out of my mouth T-bone!
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Sushi
If it isn't important if we win or lose, then why do they keep score? - Robert Klein
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T-Bone
That's a good one! When I'd hear someone say, "It doesn't matter if you win or lose - it's how you play the game" - I would say to myself, "so what if I cheat - that's how I play the game."
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Bramble
Do parents keep score? No--we know our kids weak areas and try to strengthen them. Not every bad decision is from 'evil' intent, many times it is from lack of experience or lack of thinking things through. Consequences may include more oversight from the parent rather than punishment.
Teaching kids that hard work, including following necessary directions, brings rewards can be done positively.
I can't really see a loving relationship being a score keeping one.
That said, I do believe that people get what they earn in life, though not necessary in this life. But I don't think it is a God who passes out the rewards or consequences, just the way the system works--like seeds planted, grow.
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