I don't know if I would pin dissatisfaction with life only on ex-TWI people. I see plenty of it around. I think we get plenty of "input" (from TV, movies, even hearing others talk) trying to drive us to a "better life".
How often is that message mixed with service to God, service to God's people, service to an organization that promises to make one the BEST possible God person?
It was not just an advertisement to buy products in twi...it was a way of life EXPECTED as a standard from all as proof of one's righteousness.
There's a huge difference between that and other urgings to go for a better life.
I'd give people a little more credit than you did, CW.
You said, The simple answer is that dissatisfied people are easily controlled...easily led around by a carrot on a stick.
I agree that a number of us got into TWI not as a matter of a lack in our lives, but rather as a purported "answer" to our questions. Many of us were dissatisfied with what we saw going on in traditional, orthodox Christianity and believed that TWI was genuinely trying to get back to the 1st Century Church. Many of us were dissatisfied with what we saw as disconnects between doctrine and practice, unscriptural/unsupported demands placed on us, and perceived hypocricy. We saw TWI in an idealistic fashion.
I still remember a statement I made shortly after taking the foundational piffle class: 'The Way would never have been necessary had the mainstream churches been doing their jobs' -- I got some looks from people when I made that statement, but it's just as true over 20 years after the fact as it was when I made it.
And when those of us who came into TWI saw that the reality of the situation didn't come close to the promise, we left. It may have been institution of bureaucracy in the late 70s, it may have been after LCM assumed the TWI presidency, it may have been after the reading of the POP, it may have been after the "Loyalty Letter," or it may have been after some other straw broke the camel's back, but we left.
Remember, many of us left voluntarily. Not all of us were marked and avoided.
Fortunately, some of the mainstream churches have figured out, at least in large part, what they were doing wrong that caused so many young people to leave. Unfortunately, not nearly enough of them have.
So I'd give people a little break before making a broad-brush statement like you did in your original post. Some may deserve it. But many more don't.
Only dissatisfied people look for 'answers'...as has been pointed out.
And if people are so dissatisfied as to follow other people's answers, that's not a judgment against anybody. Not on my part, at least. By bringing up the subject, my hope was to point out twi indoctrination. If anyone is taking it as a judgment on my part, I'm not the one attaching any judgment...
You quoted my statement, "The simple answer is that dissatisfied people are easily controlled...easily led around by a carrot on a stick."
I did not mean that as a judgment of any person, but as a statement about why twi pounded certain things into our heads.
The question I posed before I made that statement was, "...why was this pounded into our heads so deeply that we still carry it with us years and years later?"
My purpose was to point out that twi carefully manipulated us...by first pounding it into our heads that any dissatisfaction we felt in life was warranted because we didn't measure up...
And, believing within ourselves that there was something more to life than what we had, we were easily led.
It all started with twig and pfal...it wasn`t good enough to be a teenager working and going to school...one needed to be a warrior for God in the spiritual battle....God needed us on the wow field...
College and friends were not good enough...satisfactory.
hobbies, interests, passions were not good enough...satisfactory...we needed to be investing our time interests and efforts into serving God ....
family was not satisfactory because they distracted us from our missions.
What we were doing, who we cared about, where we were at was never satifactory....there was always something *better* that God needed us to be doing....
I wasn't going to continue, but apparently you want to do so:
You quoted my statement, "The simple answer is that dissatisfied people are easily controlled...easily led around by a carrot on a stick."
I did not mean that as a judgment of any person, but as a statement about why twi pounded certain things into our heads.
The question I posed before I made that statement was, "...why was this pounded into our heads so deeply that we still carry it with us years and years later?"
My purpose was to point out that twi carefully manipulated us...by first pounding it into our heads that any dissatisfaction we felt in life was warranted because we didn't measure up...
See, the statement, by first pounding it into our heads that any dissatisfaction we felt in life was warranted because we didn't measure up, I don't, once again, think is universally true, even among those of us who post here, much less those who just left and moved on with life...
Yes, TWI manipulated us...all of us.
But I think in many cases the manipulation was not so much to fill up a lack in their personal self-worth (i.e., didn't measure up) but to "help" people aspire to an ideal, perhaps,
to develop a better knowledge of scripture
to build a closer relationship with God
to worship more in line with the first century church
whatever other reasons are out there
Those reasons are not contingent upon feeling like we didn't measure up. Frankly, the TWI I entered used more love-bombing and affirmation than ripping a person down. The times when there was ripping down it would, for the most part, be very, very subtle: you want to do the Word, don't you? don't settle for good when you can get best, etc.
Please don't get me wrong. I understand that TWI developed into a horribly abusive organization in the 90s. That may be the norm in those days. But I just didn't see it from my perspective (I saw it start to go downhill beginning in 1987 or so and finally had enough in '89 after the loyalty letter). And I understand from you all that it turned into an absolute nightmare during the 90s. But I didn't see that. I was gone by that time.
Yes, there was manipulation
Yes, there were various castes
Yes, there was idolatry
But I didn't personally see the overt abuse that characterized the 90s. I wasn't there by that time.
And, believing within ourselves that there was something more to life than what we had, we were easily led.
It's the basis of any good sales schtick.
I will wholeheartedly agree with you 110% on that. We believed because we wanted to believe they had the answers.
I see nothing wrong with wanting to find the answers. Scripturally, there are too many quotes for me to quote, throughout the Bible, where people are being encouraged to excel, spiritually. There are too many examples throughout Church history where people have done just that. Many examples of people lauded were those whose deeds were not at all respected by mankind but who were very beloved of God. A couple of easy examples are St. Therese of Liseux and Bl. Charles De Foucauld.
But the intentional manipulation of people who are seeking those answers, whether as a matter of a positive, enhancing step or a matter of a medicinal, corrective step, is, no matter whether done through deception and ensnarement or coercion and abuse, unacceptable.
Mark it never OCCURED to me to be dissatisfied with my life/my family/our church UNTILL twi indicated that these things were some how substandard to what God wanted/needed.
TWI dangled that carrot in front of us promising so much....making what we had/were appear to be so lackluster and below standard.
If the shoe doesn`t fit your foot, ok ....but CW made a very valid point that many others can recognise and identify with.
It is very hard to get away from the mindset that we cannot relax and enjoy our lives, enjoy the blessings and joys provided.........that we have to be on some kind of intense mission for God, or we are some how not living up to God`s standard.
Mark, we are agreeing in general...just disagreeing in semantics. IMO.
You said in your first post here what I'm saying: "Many of us were dissatisfied with what we saw going on in traditional, orthodox Christianity and believed that TWI was genuinely trying to get back to the 1st Century Church."
Being dissatisfied, in and of itself, is not good and is not bad.
My point is what twi was able to do with our thinking because we came to twi dissatisfied.
TWI honed in on that dissatisfaction, nurtured it, gave us other reasons to be dissatisfied, nurtured those, and then, after all the subtle love-bombing type of 'hints', finally out-and-out railed at us that there was something terribly wrong with us if we didn't want anything better for ourselves besides living, loving, giving and helping...and that 'better' being defined by twi.
But I think in many cases the manipulation was not so much to fill up a lack in their personal self-worth (i.e., didn't measure up) but to "help" people aspire to an ideal, perhaps,
to develop a better knowledge of scripture
to build a closer relationship with God
to worship more in line with the first century church
whatever other reason are out there
If one wants 'better' or 'closer' or 'more', one is wanting something different than what one has.
If one is satisfied with what one has, one does not go looking for something different.
The heart of the message of Jesus is to be satisfied with one's self in one's relationship with God. Not to be always questioning, always seeking something 'better', always measuring up to higher and higher standards.
John 17 is a great testament to what Jesus perceived as the standard.
TWI nurtured dissatisfaction.
TWI did this to keep people from sitting still long enough to see through twi's BS.
What all this suggests to me is risk taking. Many successful and famous people got that way by taking risks. It is human nature to take risks if one's routine becomes increasingly boring. Why do people experiment with drugs? Why do people drive their cars fast? Why do people sail into the Atlantic ocean when everybody else thinks the world is flat? Why do people swim across the English channel?
CW I hear you saying that TWI may have tried to manipulate us into taking unnecessary risks just so we'd be more dependent on them. For example, renting instead of owning a home. Plus if they can convince us that this risk has God's seal on it then it "must be done". I kind of admire that John and Hope refused to take any more corps assignments after a certain point.
I really don't regret most of the time I spent in TWI, but my life is routine in many ways now and I'm OK with it.
CW I hear you saying that TWI may have tried to manipulate us into taking unnecessary risks just so we'd be more dependent on them. For example, renting instead of owning a home. Plus if they can convince us that this risk has God's seal on it then it "must be done". I kind of admire that John and Hope refused to take any more corps assignments after a certain point.
Wow! You've done better summing this up than I have. TY.
See, maybe it was because of the courses I took in college (doubt it) or something else. But I was always realizing that there was more to life just like CW's daughter said. Damn right that there is more to life than that. And I just can't see at all (without a more careful examination of how she was raised) how dissatisfaction with this life's .... (Not meaning this life compared with the future return of christ or something - meaning a life of consumerism) means total dissatisfaction until one arrives at the 'best' marked only by indoctrinization by the Way.
There are many millions of people who see that this life could be much better than it is. Then again, there are plenty of people who also wish to bury their heads in the sand and only see the local, day to day life in front of them and think of nothing else.
I think that thsi search is what can drive the human race forward in progress. I think that for the most part it should be encouraged, and that there is a way to do it beyond a "cultish push".
It is very hard to get away from the mindset that we cannot relax and enjoy our lives, enjoy the blessings and joys provided.........that we have to be on some kind of intense mission for God, or we are some how not living up to God`s standard.
That IS a carryover of twi infection.
rascal! I didn't see your post at first...but WOW! Yes, yes, yes!
I'm not posing a question of the validity or invalidity of dissatisfaction.
I'm posing a question of the validity of being driven by twi to be dissatisfied just so twi could keep going.
Yes it was sales as is most in life, we buy the package it will make our life.. whatever we are seeking.
that is our culture the way most of america thinks.
twi acted like they found white bread (which is not neccesarily a good thing, but important to our societyis my point)
I think the sale was heavy it said things like NO FEAR in your life, your family would have "more harmony" lots of stuff was "available"
No illlness .. and of course you would be working directly for God almighty
taking and giving directives from HIM!!!
power!!! a I can do attititude. all of it was sold as a BEST creature ever created!!!!!
As the snake decieved so did twi , you can be like God!
it was about power. and easy to they had it all set up for ya!!!
just find some sponors. to me I looked at how the corps struggled how those going wow strugled how it was such a compromise of what life was and is and I thought no way Would I give up my life for twi.
but they didnt say they were selling twi.. they were selling God.
almost like if you do this God loves you but if you do not He wont eh?
powerful words for frightened people in that . people without answers to life search to do better be better we all do.
At first the green card was about our needs and wants .. then it was bout what God needs and wants .. then it was about what twi needs and wants.
it can be a life for sure.. better? I think it all depends on how your life was going and what maturity level you had to find a vision for your own self.
This isn't even scriptural! Although it was pounded into us that it is...with verses like the one about pressing toward the mark of the high calling...about being perfect, throughly perfected. The whole mentality of being the BEST is simply not scriptural.
It is scriptural and godly when one looks at it from the eyes of Jesus, or Paul, or some of the other great men and women of God who envision and hope for the future. Paul even went on to say that the time is short, and they that have wives, go on as though they had none. We used to call it the urgency of the times in twi. I don't see anything wrong with that as one's commitments override some others. It is an individual choice.
As far as some feeling they were deceived and manipulated in twi, my response to that would be, if Christianity is a hoax, then we've all been hoodwinked pretty good. If Christianity is not a hoax, then twi helped me to see some present and future events with more urgency than I had seen them before.
As far as some feeling they were deceived and manipulated in twi, my response to that would be, if Christianity is a hoax, then we've all been hoodwinked pretty good. If Christianity is not a hoax, then twi helped me to see some present and future events with more urgency than I had seen them before.
And here's the baited hook in all of its bald nastiness.
The real message behind this mentality is, "Rape? Pedophilia? Adultery? Drunkeness? If all you see is the negative, you're not going to get THE WORD. Don't you want THE WORD? Don't you want POWER for ABUNDANT living? Don't you know if not NOW, when? If not YOU, who?"
The very idea that true Christianity comes at the cost of children's innocence, women's safety, men's sound mind is the hoax.
Not the other way around.
None of us would have turned a blind eye or deaf ear to the truth of twi if we hadn't questioned our own abilities, our own understandings, our own wisdom.
If we had been satisfied with our own abilities, our own understandings, our own wisdom, we would have torn down twi a long, long time ago.
Long before it ever got so big that it's going to live forever on interest payments alone.
Long before it got chopped up into so many pieces that nobody really knows how widespread the poison has been flung.
Long before generations of children being destroyed.
If we were satisfied within our own hearts, there would never have been a twi to speak of beyond, "Oh, yeah, that little church up on the farm. Yeah, they're odd ducks, but they're harmless."
Because we would have stopped the harm.
If we had been satisfied within our own hearts.
TWI knew this. TWI knows this now.
TWI takes this personal dissatifaction within one's heart...
And turns it into the bootiful sound of CHA-CHING.
Mark it never OCCURED to me to be dissatisfied with my life/my family/our church UNTILL twi indicated that these things were some how substandard to what God wanted/needed.
TWI dangled that carrot in front of us promising so much....making what we had/were appear to be so lackluster and below standard.
Rascal,
You and I were different then. First, family was not an issue at all, so that's off the table.
However, as far as religious issues: I had given up on mainline churches as not having the answers to my questions for a couple of years prior to even being approached by TWI. So I was a dissatisfied customer prior to them offering the sale to me.
As far as relationship issues: frankly, I had never met a group of people (individuals, yes. groups, no) that even came close to what I saw from twi people. (I now recognize it as being love-bombing, but at the time, thought it was genuine care and concern)
If the shoe doesn`t fit your foot, ok ....but CW made a very valid point that many others can recognise and identify with.
I never thought that the shoe didn't fit ANYBODY. My sole (no pun intended) point was that the shoe she was setting on the table didn't fit EVERYBODY. You've read enough of my posts to know I'm not hardly a TWI/VPW/LCM apologist in any way, shape, or form. Despite that, reality is reality.
It is very hard to get away from the mindset that we cannot relax and enjoy our lives, enjoy the blessings and joys provided.........that we have to be on some kind of intense mission for God, or we are some how not living up to God`s standard.
That IS a carryover of twi infection.
Again, please note that I am not trying to say in any way, shape, or form that CW is wrong. I don't believe she is wrong. I know she experienced what she experienced. I know you experienced what you experienced. The fact that you were forced to have an abortion at those b*st*rds' hands (or risk expulsion from the group and have your world collapse on you) is unforgivable in my opinion. The pedophilia issues that some, including CW, were forced to tolerate is unforgivable in my opinion. The rapes that others on this board had to endure was unforgivable in my opinion. I am not doubting those experiences at all, as you already know.
I am saying that not everybody went through all of this. Or any of this. Some people got in because it was an effective sales job. When it got weird (a highly subjective term), they got out. Doesn't mean they didn't have experiences. Doesn't mean they don't have something to learn. Doesn't even mean they weren't manipulated. Just not in the same way as some. Certainly doesn't mean that there aren't long-term effects to that manipulation...even if those effects are less obvious than those who feel compelled to string chairs 20 years after leaving.
Peace.
Mark, we are agreeing in general...just disagreeing in semantics. IMO.
The very idea that true Christianity comes at the cost of children's innocence, women's safety, men's sound mind is the hoax.
Look in the book of Acts ... folks made Christianity an exciting adventure for themselves... folks had goals and dreams and they acted out on them, with urgency. Life like that isn't always safe... but can be more exciting than the day to day mundane events of some. To each his own.
The very idea that true Christianity comes at the cost of children's innocence, women's safety, men's sound mind is the hoax.
Look in the book of Acts ... folks made Christianity an exciting adventure for themselves... folks had goals and dreams and they acted out on them, with urgency. Life like that isn't always safe... but can be more exciting than the day to day mundane events of some. To each his own.
These two quotes from MOM pretty much sum up my thoughts as well:
Yes, TWI manipulated us...all of us.
But I think in many cases the manipulation was not so much to fill up a lack in their personal self-worth (i.e., didn't measure up) but to "help" people aspire to an ideal, perhaps,
<ul><li>to develop a better knowledge of scripture
<li>to build a closer relationship with God
<li>to worship more in line with the first century church
<li>whatever other reasons are out there</ul>
Those reasons are not contingent upon feeling like we <i>didn't measure up.</i> Frankly, the TWI I entered used more love-bombing and affirmation than ripping a person down. The times when there was ripping down it would, for the most part, be very, very subtle: you <i>want</i> to do the Word, don't you? don't settle for <i>good</i> when you can get <i>best</i>, etc.
whatever other reasons are out there... I wanted to 'help' others have what I had, be filled to overflowing so that it wasn't that I had to go witnessing... people just saw it and knew that I had something they wanted...
However, as far as religious issues: I had given up on mainline churches as not having the answers to my questions for a couple of years prior to even being approached by TWI. So I was a dissatisfied customer prior to them offering the sale to me.
As far as relationship issues: frankly, I had never met a group of people (individuals, yes. groups, no) that even came close to what I saw from twi people. (I now recognize it as being love-bombing, but at the time, thought it was genuine care and concern)
...and I wanted to share that with others...
I had always pretty much been raised to 'not accept second best', it was what my folks used to give me drive and ambition... and it was probably a reason that I got involved as well (that and the hot girls!)... all I know is that after that first fellowship I wanted more and people saw a genuine change in me physically, mentally and spiritually beginning with that first fellowship... and I tried to keep it like that, I really did. Sure I made mistakes along the way and when I first wasn't 'sold on it' 100%, I walked away... disappeared...
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
10
17
7
4
Popular Days
Jul 12
51
Jul 15
5
Jul 13
2
Jul 16
1
Top Posters In This Topic
oldiesman 10 posts
CoolWaters 17 posts
Tom Strange 7 posts
markomalley 4 posts
Popular Days
Jul 12 2006
51 posts
Jul 15 2006
5 posts
Jul 13 2006
2 posts
Jul 16 2006
1 post
Lifted Up
I don't know if I would pin dissatisfaction with life only on ex-TWI people. I see plenty of it around. I think we get plenty of "input" (from TV, movies, even hearing others talk) trying to drive us to a "better life".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
Good point.
How often is that message mixed with service to God, service to God's people, service to an organization that promises to make one the BEST possible God person?
It was not just an advertisement to buy products in twi...it was a way of life EXPECTED as a standard from all as proof of one's righteousness.
There's a huge difference between that and other urgings to go for a better life.
IMO.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
I'd give people a little more credit than you did, CW.
You said, The simple answer is that dissatisfied people are easily controlled...easily led around by a carrot on a stick.
I agree that a number of us got into TWI not as a matter of a lack in our lives, but rather as a purported "answer" to our questions. Many of us were dissatisfied with what we saw going on in traditional, orthodox Christianity and believed that TWI was genuinely trying to get back to the 1st Century Church. Many of us were dissatisfied with what we saw as disconnects between doctrine and practice, unscriptural/unsupported demands placed on us, and perceived hypocricy. We saw TWI in an idealistic fashion.
I still remember a statement I made shortly after taking the foundational piffle class: 'The Way would never have been necessary had the mainstream churches been doing their jobs' -- I got some looks from people when I made that statement, but it's just as true over 20 years after the fact as it was when I made it.
And when those of us who came into TWI saw that the reality of the situation didn't come close to the promise, we left. It may have been institution of bureaucracy in the late 70s, it may have been after LCM assumed the TWI presidency, it may have been after the reading of the POP, it may have been after the "Loyalty Letter," or it may have been after some other straw broke the camel's back, but we left.
Remember, many of us left voluntarily. Not all of us were marked and avoided.
Fortunately, some of the mainstream churches have figured out, at least in large part, what they were doing wrong that caused so many young people to leave. Unfortunately, not nearly enough of them have.
So I'd give people a little break before making a broad-brush statement like you did in your original post. Some may deserve it. But many more don't.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
Why does this have to be a negative viewpoint?
I don't get that.
Only dissatisfied people look for 'answers'...as has been pointed out.
And if people are so dissatisfied as to follow other people's answers, that's not a judgment against anybody. Not on my part, at least. By bringing up the subject, my hope was to point out twi indoctrination. If anyone is taking it as a judgment on my part, I'm not the one attaching any judgment...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
Sorry, but the statement I quoted from your original post struck me as very judgemental and denigrating.
Since that wasn't your intent, obviously I must have not read it correctly...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
You quoted my statement, "The simple answer is that dissatisfied people are easily controlled...easily led around by a carrot on a stick."
I did not mean that as a judgment of any person, but as a statement about why twi pounded certain things into our heads.
The question I posed before I made that statement was, "...why was this pounded into our heads so deeply that we still carry it with us years and years later?"
My purpose was to point out that twi carefully manipulated us...by first pounding it into our heads that any dissatisfaction we felt in life was warranted because we didn't measure up...
And, believing within ourselves that there was something more to life than what we had, we were easily led.
It's the basis of any good sales schtick.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
Interesting discussion along the lines I'm thinking here: http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=8214
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
I get you cw...I really do...
It all started with twig and pfal...it wasn`t good enough to be a teenager working and going to school...one needed to be a warrior for God in the spiritual battle....God needed us on the wow field...
College and friends were not good enough...satisfactory.
hobbies, interests, passions were not good enough...satisfactory...we needed to be investing our time interests and efforts into serving God ....
family was not satisfactory because they distracted us from our missions.
What we were doing, who we cared about, where we were at was never satifactory....there was always something *better* that God needed us to be doing....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
I wasn't going to continue, but apparently you want to do so:
See, the statement, by first pounding it into our heads that any dissatisfaction we felt in life was warranted because we didn't measure up, I don't, once again, think is universally true, even among those of us who post here, much less those who just left and moved on with life...
Yes, TWI manipulated us...all of us.
But I think in many cases the manipulation was not so much to fill up a lack in their personal self-worth (i.e., didn't measure up) but to "help" people aspire to an ideal, perhaps,
Those reasons are not contingent upon feeling like we didn't measure up. Frankly, the TWI I entered used more love-bombing and affirmation than ripping a person down. The times when there was ripping down it would, for the most part, be very, very subtle: you want to do the Word, don't you? don't settle for good when you can get best, etc.
Please don't get me wrong. I understand that TWI developed into a horribly abusive organization in the 90s. That may be the norm in those days. But I just didn't see it from my perspective (I saw it start to go downhill beginning in 1987 or so and finally had enough in '89 after the loyalty letter). And I understand from you all that it turned into an absolute nightmare during the 90s. But I didn't see that. I was gone by that time.
Yes, there was manipulation
Yes, there were various castes
Yes, there was idolatry
But I didn't personally see the overt abuse that characterized the 90s. I wasn't there by that time.
I will wholeheartedly agree with you 110% on that. We believed because we wanted to believe they had the answers.
I see nothing wrong with wanting to find the answers. Scripturally, there are too many quotes for me to quote, throughout the Bible, where people are being encouraged to excel, spiritually. There are too many examples throughout Church history where people have done just that. Many examples of people lauded were those whose deeds were not at all respected by mankind but who were very beloved of God. A couple of easy examples are St. Therese of Liseux and Bl. Charles De Foucauld.
But the intentional manipulation of people who are seeking those answers, whether as a matter of a positive, enhancing step or a matter of a medicinal, corrective step, is, no matter whether done through deception and ensnarement or coercion and abuse, unacceptable.
imho
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Mark it never OCCURED to me to be dissatisfied with my life/my family/our church UNTILL twi indicated that these things were some how substandard to what God wanted/needed.
TWI dangled that carrot in front of us promising so much....making what we had/were appear to be so lackluster and below standard.
If the shoe doesn`t fit your foot, ok ....but CW made a very valid point that many others can recognise and identify with.
It is very hard to get away from the mindset that we cannot relax and enjoy our lives, enjoy the blessings and joys provided.........that we have to be on some kind of intense mission for God, or we are some how not living up to God`s standard.
That IS a carryover of twi infection.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
Mark, we are agreeing in general...just disagreeing in semantics. IMO.
You said in your first post here what I'm saying: "Many of us were dissatisfied with what we saw going on in traditional, orthodox Christianity and believed that TWI was genuinely trying to get back to the 1st Century Church."
Being dissatisfied, in and of itself, is not good and is not bad.
My point is what twi was able to do with our thinking because we came to twi dissatisfied.
TWI honed in on that dissatisfaction, nurtured it, gave us other reasons to be dissatisfied, nurtured those, and then, after all the subtle love-bombing type of 'hints', finally out-and-out railed at us that there was something terribly wrong with us if we didn't want anything better for ourselves besides living, loving, giving and helping...and that 'better' being defined by twi.
If one wants 'better' or 'closer' or 'more', one is wanting something different than what one has.
If one is satisfied with what one has, one does not go looking for something different.
The heart of the message of Jesus is to be satisfied with one's self in one's relationship with God. Not to be always questioning, always seeking something 'better', always measuring up to higher and higher standards.
John 17 is a great testament to what Jesus perceived as the standard.
TWI nurtured dissatisfaction.
TWI did this to keep people from sitting still long enough to see through twi's BS.
It's a technique.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
What all this suggests to me is risk taking. Many successful and famous people got that way by taking risks. It is human nature to take risks if one's routine becomes increasingly boring. Why do people experiment with drugs? Why do people drive their cars fast? Why do people sail into the Atlantic ocean when everybody else thinks the world is flat? Why do people swim across the English channel?
CW I hear you saying that TWI may have tried to manipulate us into taking unnecessary risks just so we'd be more dependent on them. For example, renting instead of owning a home. Plus if they can convince us that this risk has God's seal on it then it "must be done". I kind of admire that John and Hope refused to take any more corps assignments after a certain point.
I really don't regret most of the time I spent in TWI, but my life is routine in many ways now and I'm OK with it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
Wow! You've done better summing this up than I have. TY.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
learning
See, maybe it was because of the courses I took in college (doubt it) or something else. But I was always realizing that there was more to life just like CW's daughter said. Damn right that there is more to life than that. And I just can't see at all (without a more careful examination of how she was raised) how dissatisfaction with this life's .... (Not meaning this life compared with the future return of christ or something - meaning a life of consumerism) means total dissatisfaction until one arrives at the 'best' marked only by indoctrinization by the Way.
There are many millions of people who see that this life could be much better than it is. Then again, there are plenty of people who also wish to bury their heads in the sand and only see the local, day to day life in front of them and think of nothing else.
I think that thsi search is what can drive the human race forward in progress. I think that for the most part it should be encouraged, and that there is a way to do it beyond a "cultish push".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
rascal! I didn't see your post at first...but WOW! Yes, yes, yes!
I'm not posing a question of the validity or invalidity of dissatisfaction.
I'm posing a question of the validity of being driven by twi to be dissatisfied just so twi could keep going.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sunnyfla
CW,
I can totally relate to what you said in your first post. I was one that was "unsatisfied with my life" I, like
your daughter, said that there had to be more to life than what I was seeing and living at the age of 19.
That was the beginning of the searching of the heart and low and behold I was witnessed to and easily
became controlled by the tactics of twi. Being led by the carrot was an accurate statement IMO. Once the
carrot was gone I felt unsatisfied again and lost. It's a sad thing what twi did to so many of us. Thank God
many have overcome and are living (hopefully) satisfied lives now.
Good Post CW
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
Many bought the advertisment.
Yes it was sales as is most in life, we buy the package it will make our life.. whatever we are seeking.
that is our culture the way most of america thinks.
twi acted like they found white bread (which is not neccesarily a good thing, but important to our societyis my point)
I think the sale was heavy it said things like NO FEAR in your life, your family would have "more harmony" lots of stuff was "available"
No illlness .. and of course you would be working directly for God almighty
taking and giving directives from HIM!!!
power!!! a I can do attititude. all of it was sold as a BEST creature ever created!!!!!
As the snake decieved so did twi , you can be like God!
it was about power. and easy to they had it all set up for ya!!!
just find some sponors. to me I looked at how the corps struggled how those going wow strugled how it was such a compromise of what life was and is and I thought no way Would I give up my life for twi.
but they didnt say they were selling twi.. they were selling God.
almost like if you do this God loves you but if you do not He wont eh?
powerful words for frightened people in that . people without answers to life search to do better be better we all do.
At first the green card was about our needs and wants .. then it was bout what God needs and wants .. then it was about what twi needs and wants.
it can be a life for sure.. better? I think it all depends on how your life was going and what maturity level you had to find a vision for your own self.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
It is scriptural and godly when one looks at it from the eyes of Jesus, or Paul, or some of the other great men and women of God who envision and hope for the future. Paul even went on to say that the time is short, and they that have wives, go on as though they had none. We used to call it the urgency of the times in twi. I don't see anything wrong with that as one's commitments override some others. It is an individual choice.
As far as some feeling they were deceived and manipulated in twi, my response to that would be, if Christianity is a hoax, then we've all been hoodwinked pretty good. If Christianity is not a hoax, then twi helped me to see some present and future events with more urgency than I had seen them before.
Edited by oldiesmanLink to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
And here's the baited hook in all of its bald nastiness.
The real message behind this mentality is, "Rape? Pedophilia? Adultery? Drunkeness? If all you see is the negative, you're not going to get THE WORD. Don't you want THE WORD? Don't you want POWER for ABUNDANT living? Don't you know if not NOW, when? If not YOU, who?"
The very idea that true Christianity comes at the cost of children's innocence, women's safety, men's sound mind is the hoax.
Not the other way around.
None of us would have turned a blind eye or deaf ear to the truth of twi if we hadn't questioned our own abilities, our own understandings, our own wisdom.
If we had been satisfied with our own abilities, our own understandings, our own wisdom, we would have torn down twi a long, long time ago.
Long before it ever got so big that it's going to live forever on interest payments alone.
Long before it got chopped up into so many pieces that nobody really knows how widespread the poison has been flung.
Long before generations of children being destroyed.
If we were satisfied within our own hearts, there would never have been a twi to speak of beyond, "Oh, yeah, that little church up on the farm. Yeah, they're odd ducks, but they're harmless."
Because we would have stopped the harm.
If we had been satisfied within our own hearts.
TWI knew this. TWI knows this now.
TWI takes this personal dissatifaction within one's heart...
And turns it into the bootiful sound of CHA-CHING.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
Rascal,
You and I were different then. First, family was not an issue at all, so that's off the table.
However, as far as religious issues: I had given up on mainline churches as not having the answers to my questions for a couple of years prior to even being approached by TWI. So I was a dissatisfied customer prior to them offering the sale to me.
As far as relationship issues: frankly, I had never met a group of people (individuals, yes. groups, no) that even came close to what I saw from twi people. (I now recognize it as being love-bombing, but at the time, thought it was genuine care and concern)
I never thought that the shoe didn't fit ANYBODY. My sole (no pun intended) point was that the shoe she was setting on the table didn't fit EVERYBODY. You've read enough of my posts to know I'm not hardly a TWI/VPW/LCM apologist in any way, shape, or form. Despite that, reality is reality.Again, please note that I am not trying to say in any way, shape, or form that CW is wrong. I don't believe she is wrong. I know she experienced what she experienced. I know you experienced what you experienced. The fact that you were forced to have an abortion at those b*st*rds' hands (or risk expulsion from the group and have your world collapse on you) is unforgivable in my opinion. The pedophilia issues that some, including CW, were forced to tolerate is unforgivable in my opinion. The rapes that others on this board had to endure was unforgivable in my opinion. I am not doubting those experiences at all, as you already know.
I am saying that not everybody went through all of this. Or any of this. Some people got in because it was an effective sales job. When it got weird (a highly subjective term), they got out. Doesn't mean they didn't have experiences. Doesn't mean they don't have something to learn. Doesn't even mean they weren't manipulated. Just not in the same way as some. Certainly doesn't mean that there aren't long-term effects to that manipulation...even if those effects are less obvious than those who feel compelled to string chairs 20 years after leaving.
Peace.
We are in "violent agreement"?
I think that's the case.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
Look in the book of Acts ... folks made Christianity an exciting adventure for themselves... folks had goals and dreams and they acted out on them, with urgency. Life like that isn't always safe... but can be more exciting than the day to day mundane events of some. To each his own.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
I rest my case.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
These two quotes from MOM pretty much sum up my thoughts as well:
whatever other reasons are out there... I wanted to 'help' others have what I had, be filled to overflowing so that it wasn't that I had to go witnessing... people just saw it and knew that I had something they wanted...
...and I wanted to share that with others...
I had always pretty much been raised to 'not accept second best', it was what my folks used to give me drive and ambition... and it was probably a reason that I got involved as well (that and the hot girls!)... all I know is that after that first fellowship I wanted more and people saw a genuine change in me physically, mentally and spiritually beginning with that first fellowship... and I tried to keep it like that, I really did. Sure I made mistakes along the way and when I first wasn't 'sold on it' 100%, I walked away... disappeared...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
Again, this isn't about anyone being 'bad' in some way.
This is about how twi capitalized upon personal dissatisfaction...drive, ambition, whatever you want to call it.
People who are satisfied within themselves don't usually care to even listen to people offering 'what I have'. There's no need.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.