Sky, it's so funny (coincidental, not funny, haha) that you bring this topic up now. I just had this coversation, several times over, recently. Long story, but I just spent some time in Europe, where I met up with some old (as in knew them in a former life, not neccessarily OLD, as in gray-haired and frail) friends.
And the questions you ask here seemed to come up over and over again.
I guess my short answer is: VP sinned. He allowed his own personal sin, to rule his life. I Timothy 3:2 ff?????
"Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkeness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money."
Honestly, how many of these qualities did VP exhibit? Perhaps he was a very gifted man, who squandered his gifts?
And the questions you ask here seemed to come up over and over again.
I guess my short answer is: VP sinned. He allowed his own personal sin, to rule his life. I Timothy 3:2 ff?????
ex10,
Being at hq, on staff, during this time frame........and seeing wierwille turn the reins of "his ministry" over to craig seemed more like a corporate move rather than a ministry. Like, the ceo steps down and retires...... and takes extended vacations lavished with money and excesses.
Then.....seeing wierwille distance himself from craig and avoid confrontation?? If he saw all this stuff manifesting itself it twi [as cgeer writes in POP]....then why run and hide?? Why such a spineless approach to taking care of the Lord's work??
If wierwille saw the twi ship sinking.......why didn't he confront the trustees??
One year after his death, twi is in shambles..........???????
So then, keep wierwille on a pedestal as a great man of God.....??????
Not quite like Stephen (in Acts) taking a stand with his dying breath and seeing the Lord Jesus standing on his behalf.........?? Not even in the same ballpark. Forget comparing vpw to Paul, or Timothy, or Stephen, or Barnabus, or ______ (fill in the blank).
IMO, wierwille could not have done anything more spineless than run to gartmore. Whatever vpw saw in cgeer, was immeasureably misplaced.
Skyrider, I don't disagree that VPW could have confronted many of those things. He seemed to have a real knack for giving the wrong person the wrong responsibility. I can think of lots of examples. And even when said person demonstrated incompetence in said position, he didn't remove them.
Having said all that, though, I was at HQ when Athletes was in the works. He did confront Craig on that. He said all that devil spirit imagery would distract people from the Word, that some of the content was inaccurate, and that Craig had no business being a dancer in the production.
I also remember a meeting, a day or two before the Word over the World Auditorium was dedicated. VPW called all the staff in there to be the audience for a run-through, but he also shared some things. He was worked up (IMO in a good way that time), saying that if it was anything but the Word that the auditorium stood for, it might as well burn to the ground. He didn't single anyone out, but it seemed to me he was confronting some rampant egos. I think it was at that meeting that he absolutely forbid anyone to put his name on that building.
Toward the end, there was a prevailing attitude around HQ that VPW was a doddering old fart who was to be humored but ignored. I saw lots of signs of that and heard comments to that effect, even though they were stated a bit more eupehemistically than that. Don Wierwille said something to that effect to my mother..."Oh, we just let him do that because it makes him happy." Very condescending.
By the time VPW went to Gartmore, he was very sick and quite frail. Not exactly at his "fightin' weight." I don't think by that time he was up to confronting a mosquito.
Edited to add this:
It stands to reason that VPW would go to Gartmore. If LCM was his #1 a$$ kisser, CG was an extremely close second. It was obvious at HQ that now that Craig had "made it," he didn't need to kiss VP's butt anymore. I think he felt rejected and tossed aside and went where someone was who idolized him, or at least acted like he did.
I wasn't comparing VP to the apostle Paul or anybody else. My point is/was that he didn't meet the basic qualifications for a "minister" that many Christian organizations herald, ie, I Tim. 3. He was touted as as not only a "minister," but "the man of God for our day and time."
So of course he ran his "minstry" like a business. How could he do it any other way?
You state several good points. Makes me think that wierwille's propounding that "the trustees had their ear next to the heart of God" came back to bite him. Once out of the trustee spotlight.....he was history.
And, those 1980-81 corps night teachings......those literal translations according to usage (in Romans)...... were, mostly, worthless. Maybe others talked him into getting this stuff on tape for future University of Life promotions.......but sheeesh, what a waste of hundreds of hours.
Could wierwille had been MORE VAGUE when he confronts with "needing to get back to 'the Word'"....????? What the h... does that mean??
Under wierwille's leadership........the cistern was broken, holding no water. And, no twi leadership had the wherewithal to find the "fountain of life."
Wierwille's lifelong work (cough, cough).......was crumbling shortly after his death.
IMO, it signifies that his work was "of man."
Acts 5:38b, 39... for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 But if it be of God,ye cannot overthrow it: lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
I wasn't comparing VP to the apostle Paul or anybody else. My point is/was that he didn't meet the basic qualifications for a "minister" that many Christian organizations herald, ie, I Tim. 3. He was touted as as not only a "minister," but "the man of God for our day and time."
So of course he ran his "minstry" like a business. How could he do it any other way?
ex10......your points were very clear. Sorry if I implied otherwise. I agree with you.
No, vpw didn't meet the basic qualifications for a "minister" that governs other Christian organizations. No accountability, no wise counsel or dialogue from an official board of directors.
Based on what I saw before his death and what some of his family memebrs told me, VPW DID confront. The "word on the street" was that VPW was treated like a crazy old man.
Knowing what I know about VPW, he was either
a. trying to help the culture of corruption that he perfected stay alive and undetected. (Basicly Craig wasn't slick enough to pull it off like Vic could and Vic was trying to help him keep it going)
or
b. having feelings of guilt and treid to make a difference or "right the ship" thru his influence and "wisdom". (This would never have worked as Loy and co. knew dam well the ship was built on sand and enjoyed the perks of being "Elvis")
or
c. was a crazy old man. (I submit he was a crazy young man too)
Regardless, he did confront people and ran to CG for selfish AND pratcical reasons. He knew Geer was loyal and he knew Craig was out of control.
As crooked as I know Vic was, even he thought Loy's being a dancer was stupid on all levels. It took away from his job, it made him look silly and he sucked as a dancer. Picture Bill Gates or Billy Graham spending all of their time being a dancer. Makes zero sense.
Apostle, prohet, evangelist, pastor, take it or leave it on what you think. As for 'Teacher' and your statement about why VP couldn't have made the Word any 'plainer'. ????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How much more 'plainer' do you think a Biblical teacher could be ????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If that wasn't such a lame comment, it would be ludicrous (IMO)
Based on what I saw before his death and what some of his family memebrs told me, VPW DID confront. The "word on the street" was that VPW was treated like a crazy old man.
Knowing what I know about VPW, he was either
a. trying to help the culture of corruption that he perfected stay alive and undetected. (Basicly Craig wasn't slick enough to pull it off like Vic could and Vic was trying to help him keep it going)
Interesting.......the way you stated that GJ........"trying to help the culture of corruption that he perfected stay alive and undetected."
So like, in a way vpw "confronts" a few things......but he doesn't really CONFRONT the root of issues and expose the way facade that vp instituted...???
I know that there was an effort on the part of the new bot to distance friends and leaders from vpw whom might have made a difference.
I know that one leader who was at hq during this time told me in later years.....that he and others were told to stay away from vp because craig and the new bot needed all of his time to help them with the things of the ministry....these other folks mustn`t interfere with his concentration...etc...
This unbeknownst to vpw himself aparently......he never knew why all of hq seemed to be unwilling to talk to him...My friend didn`t learn untill too late that vpw felt abandoned and alone those last couple of years.
Sky, it's so funny (coincidental, not funny, haha) that you bring this topic up now. I just had this coversation, several times over, recently. Long story, but I just spent some time in Europe, where I met up with some old (as in knew them in a former life, not neccessarily OLD, as in gray-haired and frail) friends.
And the questions you ask here seemed to come up over and over again.
I guess my short answer is: VP sinned. He allowed his own personal sin, to rule his life. I Timothy 3:2 ff?????
"Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkeness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money."
Honestly, how many of these qualities did VP exhibit? Perhaps he was a very gifted man, who squandered his gifts?
Just some thoughts.......
A brief look at vpw and I Timothy 3:2ff.
"The overseer must be above reproach".
As has been pointed out,
this means that-although people can make an accusation-
the accusations must not be TRUE.
vpw committed many criminal acts during "his ministry",
and many acts not criminal but blatantly unChristian,
and covered his tracks on both.
(Unless you count "misuse of authority and neglect of fiduciary responsibility",
which I believe are covered in the criminal laws/courts of the US.)
To this day, many accusations on vpw have been exposed,
and have been true.
(Eyewitnesses and victims have come forward independently of each other.)
"the husband of one wife".
How much of a "husband" was he to her?
Given his repeated rapes, druggings then rapes, and molestations of
carefully-chosen, trusting females over the years,
I'd call his responsibilities as a husband a failure-
and that's only addressing one level of it.
"temperate"
Don't make me laugh.
The man could go into a screaming fit whenever things weren't EXACTLY
the way he wanted them.
He threw people out of the corps for not taking notes when he was talking.
lcm documented plenty of examples of what vpw was like when the cameras
were NOT rolling in his book "vp and me."
"self-controlled"
Skipping his violent tirades, he chain-smoked and was an alcoholic as long
as people knew him-and he had access to excellent healthcare, and still
DIED as a result of addictions to alcohol and tobacco.
Meanwhile- he told the corps not to smoke or drink at various times.
"respectable, hospitable"
Need I flog the dead horse any further?
"able to teach"
Ok. He could teach. Bravo. That's one quality where he's finally the equal
of my kindergarten teacher-
who WAS temperate and self-controlled.
"not given to drunkenness"
vpw was either OFTEN smashed or USUALLY smashed.
Some people have commented on meeting him when he had killer
alcohol breath. Others on being told to by SEVERAL bottles of Drambuie
when told he was coming for a SHORT visit.
(We all know it was Drambuie. Amazing how often this came up.)
The man drank more in most WEEKS than I drink in a YEAR.
He always had mints handy when he was teaching, and setup crews
had directions on their setup.
They cover alcoholic breath nicely, sometimes.
He often sat a "coffee" cup next to him when on the pulpit.
I wonder what the percentages were of coffee in that cup-
setup crews knew it wasn't 100%....
Some of his behaviour has been "excused" on the basis of his
being a compulsive drunk at the time-
as if being a drunk alcoholic raving about was ok for a Christian leader.
"not violent but gentle"
I refer you back to the screaming tirades staff and corps got to see,
on little or no pretext.
"not quarrelsome"
I'm skipping the dead horse again-but posters here have given examples
when vpw had to be stopped from throwing the first punch in a
FISTFIGHT when meeting Christian nonmember relatives of twi members.
"not a lover of money".
Need I address this one at all?
Ask me and I will, but I think EVERYBODY here's seen enough diatribes
Interesting.......the way you stated that GJ........"trying to help the culture of corruption that he perfected stay alive and undetected."
So like, in a way vpw "confronts" a few things......but he doesn't really CONFRONT the root of issues and expose the way facade that vp instituted...???
Right. The dirty tricks were his own. The "confrontation" (in theory) would have been about Loy being sloppy and careless and that it would eventually be exposed and cause TWI to fall. He would have been right, factually.
Kind of like when one married guy catches his married buddy at the bar with another woman. In order to not alienate or threaten you might say something like "I don't care what you do, it's just that you live around the corner. If you're going to do that, take it out of town" when the message should be "Dude, you took a solemn vow in front of me and all of your family , etc"
Vic was being ignored at the end so any confrontation would have fallen on deaf ears. And if the confrontation was based on a case of a dying man having an attack of morality, that would have been even more ignored. "crazy old man"
Based on what I saw before his death and what some of his family memebrs told me, VPW DID confront. The "word on the street" was that VPW was treated like a crazy old man.
Knowing what I know about VPW, he was either
a. trying to help the culture of corruption that he perfected stay alive and undetected. (Basicly Craig wasn't slick enough to pull it off like Vic could and Vic was trying to help him keep it going)
or
b. having feelings of guilt and treid to make a difference or "right the ship" thru his influence and "wisdom". (This would never have worked as Loy and co. knew dam well the ship was built on sand and enjoyed the perks of being "Elvis")
or
c. was a crazy old man. (I submit he was a crazy young man too)
Regardless, he did confront people and ran to CG for selfish AND pratcical reasons. He knew Geer was loyal and he knew Craig was out of control.
As crooked as I know Vic was, even he thought Loy's being a dancer was stupid on all levels. It took away from his job, it made him look silly and he sucked as a dancer. Picture Bill Gates or Billy Graham spending all of their time being a dancer. Makes zero sense.
I think all 3 options were at least partially true, all at the same time.
Remember, when he was dying, he wondered aloud what he had done that his believing
wasn't saving his life. I think he had convinced himself it should have AND that he'd
Thinking about Skyrider's and Wordwolf's posts about VPW the phrase "blind leading the blind" comes to mind. And really most of the posts on this thread so far, have been along those lines – to which I totally agree. And if I may continue to be master of the obvious, most of the posters so far have been out of TWI for awhile [myself included]. But what has intrigued me the most about this topic is the way these type of questions [like "Why didn't VPW confront TWI's straying from the truth?"] may evolve [re-defining the problem] in each person's mind as they continue to analyze things after getting out of TWI. I think how we define a problem also sets how we plot a solution or come to some sort of conclusion.
I read a story in The Thinker's Toolkit by Morgan Jones: A man awoke one morning aware of a small puddle of water in the middle of his king-size water bed. To fix the hole in the water bed, he rolled it outside and filled it with more water so it would be easier to find the leak. But the huge water bed mattress, bloated with water became impossible to control, rolled down his sloping backyard and crashed into the thorny bushes - shredded beyond repair. He decided to buy a standard bed. The next morning he awoke to find a small wet spot in the middle of his new bed. The upstairs bathroom had a leaky drain. Lesson of the story – He defined the problem by thinking "how can I fix the leak in my water bed?" What he should have asked was "what is the source of the water on my bed?"
My thinking in the months after hearing Geer's Patriarch was along the lines of VPW did confront TWI [according to Geer's Patriarch] for straying from the truth, and what we as Corps are supposed to do about getting it back on track… A subliminal message of Corps training is you fly by having your autopilot engaged – that's believing God is guiding the Board of Trustees – trust them. A big question I kept thinking is "how could this happen to the ministry that has more of the rightly-divided Word of God than anyone else on earth?" After months of seeing the Board of Trustees make no effort to address the issues – I figured the autopilot has failed – I disengaged it by turning my brain on.
My question evolved into "Did it go wrong because it wasn't based on something right?" That has driven me to dig into many intellectual/doctrinal issues and since I've joined Grease Spot Café, moral issues as well. Of course, what's "right" is a matter of opinion – but in my early Ex-TWI days, I was slowly gaining the courage to think for myself.
I just read this thread and was at HQ towards the end and at the end of vp's life. I could not say it any better than Linda Z said it in her post. I had the exact same impression she did.
So now Linda I have lumped you with me, a babbling old f@rt. :)
Wordwolf, I never knew VP said that before died. That shows me, a) the "law of believing" doesn't work, and it didn't work for VP either; and (ii) he was not all there - how could he, at the end of his life, wonder what he had done wrong? If he didn't get that adultry, fornication, etc. were not becoming a man of God - well, I'm just incredulous that he didn't "get" that he had done anything wrong. He thought he was a-ok, didn't he?
I do not believe he was born again. An angel of light maybe.
I read a story in The Thinker's Toolkit by Morgan Jones: Lesson of the story – He defined the problem by thinking "how can I fix the leak in my water bed?" What he should have asked was "what is the source of the water on my bed?"
T- great analogy.
The Way is STILL trying to fix the leak in the water bed. Unfortunately they ARE also aware of the SOURCE of the leaks. Just silly Wayfers aren't. So, they sit and watch them fix the leaks, but nothing really changes.
So they wait..........
The kicker for me leaving was VPW. When I saw that he was totally out to lunch and did such unthinkable things, I knew FINALLY, right then, that this "ministry" was built on sand.
I thought I'd add a couple of thoughts from a post I made over a year ago on an old thread entitled "VPW, Cancer and Gartmore". This is talking about the opening night of our first year in residence Family Corps XI, August 1984. I think you'll see a little perspective of his concerns for some of his pet programs in my post. This is just months before he died and he was already quite ill:
Back to opening night of our Corps. John welcomes us and then turns it over to vp. VP looks around and then what we heard next confirmed a lot of growing concerns we had been harboring about the ministry, but only discussed in private. He was serious, somber and by the tone of his voice, we could tell, this was going to be something very “heavy”. He looked old, tired and for many of us, it was the first time we had seen him up close and personal since he had gotten the fake eye. VP tells us that he had been concerned about the direction of the Way Corps for some time. It had really gotten away from the original intent and heart - - and he was going to see to it that it had a chance to change. He told us that “none of those guys” at HQ listened to him any more. He was “out of the loop” and was not consulted any more on decisions that were being made. “Well, I overrode everyone on this and just did it.” He said that he had hand-picked John and Mary Ann to come here and run this thing - - and if John will listen, there will be a Way Corps program again.
I can’t remember everything he talked about, nor am I one of those diary freaks - - but the gist of the rest of what he discussed centered around the work program. The program, he said, had become too academic - - and made some implication about Don W’s influence on that. A big part of the Corps program needed to be the work program, he said. If people didn’t learn the discipline of hard work, then they’d never be able to “work the word.” So he felt like this was a good place to start over. With the Family Corps. And he said - - and it’s probably not for you guys - - but for your kids. He talked up Greg and Cindy Bernardini a bit - - particularly Cindy - - and said that it was for the kids that this program had to continue - - “if the Word was ever going to live past this generation.”
O.K. Pregnant pause here. Our heads were swimming. This was heavy. No one listened to our beloved Dr. Wierwille? [Flashback to that ROA and a comment Don had made that ****** off hubby royally. He said something about the staff at HQ being the “true” corps. The staff were the spiritual ones who were keeping the Word alive. Not all the believers and Corps on the field!]The Corps program was screwed up? (Well, duh! We coulda told you that! He had just confirmed everything we had been seeing for the past number of years on the field!) John H. was “hand picked”? For us? Boy did we feel like we were spiritual going in when we did! Ha!
I honestly can’t remember anything John said that night. I know he pretty much, as his manner would be for the remainder of the year, deferred to vp. If vp was there, John didn’t say much. If vp was gone, we could expect John to be short, direct and pointed.
Another post was from my recollection of a SNS hookup we attended just prior to this time (would have been the summer of 1984), shortly after VP had suffered an almost never discussed stroke:
We had been very concerned about vpw, as one Sunday during our apprentice year, we had the whole branch over our house for a SNS phone hook up on which vpw was the teacher. What we heard after he was announced was shocking and disturbing. VPW was teaching alright, but was slurring and speaking so slowly - - it caused all us loyal wayfers lots of concern and alarm. This was no Drambuie slur. This sounded like he had had a stroke. I don’t know the name of the teaching but it was something about the tribe of Chad -- - maybe one of you remembers that one. Odd thing to us. No one talked about it. No mention of any illness. No comment from vp about being under the weather. Nothing. Just left us hanging and speculating - - and very alarmed about our “father in the Word”’s health.
Anyway, just some thoughts to throw into the mix. I don't think people really realized just how sick he was during the 83-85 time frame. Could have impacted his decision to talk, confront, or not to - - depending on how he felt.
Picture Bill Gates or Billy Graham spending all of their time being a dancer. Makes zero sense.
True - but it DID get Loy Boy an excuse to hang around a bunch of women with great bodies. Heck, he even had them fawning on him with some lame excuse that the minister would be the object of love or some such nonsense.
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ex10
Sky, it's so funny (coincidental, not funny, haha) that you bring this topic up now. I just had this coversation, several times over, recently. Long story, but I just spent some time in Europe, where I met up with some old (as in knew them in a former life, not neccessarily OLD, as in gray-haired and frail) friends.
And the questions you ask here seemed to come up over and over again.
I guess my short answer is: VP sinned. He allowed his own personal sin, to rule his life. I Timothy 3:2 ff?????
"Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkeness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money."
Honestly, how many of these qualities did VP exhibit? Perhaps he was a very gifted man, who squandered his gifts?
Just some thoughts.......
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rascal
Or PERHAPS he was a ravening wolf seeking whom he may devour...a false prophet....
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skyrider
ex10,
Being at hq, on staff, during this time frame........and seeing wierwille turn the reins of "his ministry" over to craig seemed more like a corporate move rather than a ministry. Like, the ceo steps down and retires...... and takes extended vacations lavished with money and excesses.
Then.....seeing wierwille distance himself from craig and avoid confrontation?? If he saw all this stuff manifesting itself it twi [as cgeer writes in POP]....then why run and hide?? Why such a spineless approach to taking care of the Lord's work??
If wierwille saw the twi ship sinking.......why didn't he confront the trustees??
One year after his death, twi is in shambles..........???????
So then, keep wierwille on a pedestal as a great man of God.....??????
Not quite like Stephen (in Acts) taking a stand with his dying breath and seeing the Lord Jesus standing on his behalf.........?? Not even in the same ballpark. Forget comparing vpw to Paul, or Timothy, or Stephen, or Barnabus, or ______ (fill in the blank).
IMO, wierwille could not have done anything more spineless than run to gartmore. Whatever vpw saw in cgeer, was immeasureably misplaced.
:unsure:
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Linda Z
Skyrider, I don't disagree that VPW could have confronted many of those things. He seemed to have a real knack for giving the wrong person the wrong responsibility. I can think of lots of examples. And even when said person demonstrated incompetence in said position, he didn't remove them.
Having said all that, though, I was at HQ when Athletes was in the works. He did confront Craig on that. He said all that devil spirit imagery would distract people from the Word, that some of the content was inaccurate, and that Craig had no business being a dancer in the production.
I also remember a meeting, a day or two before the Word over the World Auditorium was dedicated. VPW called all the staff in there to be the audience for a run-through, but he also shared some things. He was worked up (IMO in a good way that time), saying that if it was anything but the Word that the auditorium stood for, it might as well burn to the ground. He didn't single anyone out, but it seemed to me he was confronting some rampant egos. I think it was at that meeting that he absolutely forbid anyone to put his name on that building.
Toward the end, there was a prevailing attitude around HQ that VPW was a doddering old fart who was to be humored but ignored. I saw lots of signs of that and heard comments to that effect, even though they were stated a bit more eupehemistically than that. Don Wierwille said something to that effect to my mother..."Oh, we just let him do that because it makes him happy." Very condescending.
By the time VPW went to Gartmore, he was very sick and quite frail. Not exactly at his "fightin' weight." I don't think by that time he was up to confronting a mosquito.
Edited to add this:
It stands to reason that VPW would go to Gartmore. If LCM was his #1 a$$ kisser, CG was an extremely close second. It was obvious at HQ that now that Craig had "made it," he didn't need to kiss VP's butt anymore. I think he felt rejected and tossed aside and went where someone was who idolized him, or at least acted like he did.
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ex10
Sky
I wasn't comparing VP to the apostle Paul or anybody else. My point is/was that he didn't meet the basic qualifications for a "minister" that many Christian organizations herald, ie, I Tim. 3. He was touted as as not only a "minister," but "the man of God for our day and time."
So of course he ran his "minstry" like a business. How could he do it any other way?
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skyrider
Linda Z,
You state several good points. Makes me think that wierwille's propounding that "the trustees had their ear next to the heart of God" came back to bite him. Once out of the trustee spotlight.....he was history.
And, those 1980-81 corps night teachings......those literal translations according to usage (in Romans)...... were, mostly, worthless. Maybe others talked him into getting this stuff on tape for future University of Life promotions.......but sheeesh, what a waste of hundreds of hours.
Could wierwille had been MORE VAGUE when he confronts with "needing to get back to 'the Word'"....????? What the h... does that mean??
Under wierwille's leadership........the cistern was broken, holding no water. And, no twi leadership had the wherewithal to find the "fountain of life."
Wierwille's lifelong work (cough, cough).......was crumbling shortly after his death.
IMO, it signifies that his work was "of man."
Acts 5:38b, 39... for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 But if it be of God,ye cannot overthrow it: lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
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skyrider
ex10......your points were very clear. Sorry if I implied otherwise. I agree with you.
No, vpw didn't meet the basic qualifications for a "minister" that governs other Christian organizations. No accountability, no wise counsel or dialogue from an official board of directors.
Thanks ex. I always look forward to your input.
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ex10
;) Back atcha, sky.
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Georgio Jessio
Based on what I saw before his death and what some of his family memebrs told me, VPW DID confront. The "word on the street" was that VPW was treated like a crazy old man.
Knowing what I know about VPW, he was either
a. trying to help the culture of corruption that he perfected stay alive and undetected. (Basicly Craig wasn't slick enough to pull it off like Vic could and Vic was trying to help him keep it going)
or
b. having feelings of guilt and treid to make a difference or "right the ship" thru his influence and "wisdom". (This would never have worked as Loy and co. knew dam well the ship was built on sand and enjoyed the perks of being "Elvis")
or
c. was a crazy old man. (I submit he was a crazy young man too)
Regardless, he did confront people and ran to CG for selfish AND pratcical reasons. He knew Geer was loyal and he knew Craig was out of control.
As crooked as I know Vic was, even he thought Loy's being a dancer was stupid on all levels. It took away from his job, it made him look silly and he sucked as a dancer. Picture Bill Gates or Billy Graham spending all of their time being a dancer. Makes zero sense.
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allan w.
Apostle, prohet, evangelist, pastor, take it or leave it on what you think. As for 'Teacher' and your statement about why VP couldn't have made the Word any 'plainer'. ????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How much more 'plainer' do you think a Biblical teacher could be ????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If that wasn't such a lame comment, it would be ludicrous (IMO)
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TheInvisibleDan
VP's life as he knew it was over.
He ran out of options (perhaps not unlike not a number of those whose life savings
were wiped out as a result of his foolish scams)
The only fate that awaited him was spending the remainder of his life on the sidelines.
We can only only imagine what must have went through his mind; the regrets
over the choices and decisions he made, and those actions which he should've taken
but didn't, like: "Damn... I should have had the onion rings instead of the fries..."
Danny
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skyrider
Interesting.......the way you stated that GJ........"trying to help the culture of corruption that he perfected stay alive and undetected."
So like, in a way vpw "confronts" a few things......but he doesn't really CONFRONT the root of issues and expose the way facade that vp instituted...???
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rascal
I know that there was an effort on the part of the new bot to distance friends and leaders from vpw whom might have made a difference.
I know that one leader who was at hq during this time told me in later years.....that he and others were told to stay away from vp because craig and the new bot needed all of his time to help them with the things of the ministry....these other folks mustn`t interfere with his concentration...etc...
This unbeknownst to vpw himself aparently......he never knew why all of hq seemed to be unwilling to talk to him...My friend didn`t learn untill too late that vpw felt abandoned and alone those last couple of years.
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WordWolf
A brief look at vpw and I Timothy 3:2ff.
"The overseer must be above reproach".
As has been pointed out,
this means that-although people can make an accusation-
the accusations must not be TRUE.
vpw committed many criminal acts during "his ministry",
and many acts not criminal but blatantly unChristian,
and covered his tracks on both.
(Unless you count "misuse of authority and neglect of fiduciary responsibility",
which I believe are covered in the criminal laws/courts of the US.)
To this day, many accusations on vpw have been exposed,
and have been true.
(Eyewitnesses and victims have come forward independently of each other.)
"the husband of one wife".
How much of a "husband" was he to her?
Given his repeated rapes, druggings then rapes, and molestations of
carefully-chosen, trusting females over the years,
I'd call his responsibilities as a husband a failure-
and that's only addressing one level of it.
"temperate"
Don't make me laugh.
The man could go into a screaming fit whenever things weren't EXACTLY
the way he wanted them.
He threw people out of the corps for not taking notes when he was talking.
lcm documented plenty of examples of what vpw was like when the cameras
were NOT rolling in his book "vp and me."
"self-controlled"
Skipping his violent tirades, he chain-smoked and was an alcoholic as long
as people knew him-and he had access to excellent healthcare, and still
DIED as a result of addictions to alcohol and tobacco.
Meanwhile- he told the corps not to smoke or drink at various times.
"respectable, hospitable"
Need I flog the dead horse any further?
"able to teach"
Ok. He could teach. Bravo. That's one quality where he's finally the equal
of my kindergarten teacher-
who WAS temperate and self-controlled.
"not given to drunkenness"
vpw was either OFTEN smashed or USUALLY smashed.
Some people have commented on meeting him when he had killer
alcohol breath. Others on being told to by SEVERAL bottles of Drambuie
when told he was coming for a SHORT visit.
(We all know it was Drambuie. Amazing how often this came up.)
The man drank more in most WEEKS than I drink in a YEAR.
He always had mints handy when he was teaching, and setup crews
had directions on their setup.
They cover alcoholic breath nicely, sometimes.
He often sat a "coffee" cup next to him when on the pulpit.
I wonder what the percentages were of coffee in that cup-
setup crews knew it wasn't 100%....
Some of his behaviour has been "excused" on the basis of his
being a compulsive drunk at the time-
as if being a drunk alcoholic raving about was ok for a Christian leader.
"not violent but gentle"
I refer you back to the screaming tirades staff and corps got to see,
on little or no pretext.
"not quarrelsome"
I'm skipping the dead horse again-but posters here have given examples
when vpw had to be stopped from throwing the first punch in a
FISTFIGHT when meeting Christian nonmember relatives of twi members.
"not a lover of money".
Need I address this one at all?
Ask me and I will, but I think EVERYBODY here's seen enough diatribes
on the subject.
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Georgio Jessio
Right. The dirty tricks were his own. The "confrontation" (in theory) would have been about Loy being sloppy and careless and that it would eventually be exposed and cause TWI to fall. He would have been right, factually.
Kind of like when one married guy catches his married buddy at the bar with another woman. In order to not alienate or threaten you might say something like "I don't care what you do, it's just that you live around the corner. If you're going to do that, take it out of town" when the message should be "Dude, you took a solemn vow in front of me and all of your family , etc"
Vic was being ignored at the end so any confrontation would have fallen on deaf ears. And if the confrontation was based on a case of a dying man having an attack of morality, that would have been even more ignored. "crazy old man"
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WordWolf
I think all 3 options were at least partially true, all at the same time.
Remember, when he was dying, he wondered aloud what he had done that his believing
wasn't saving his life. I think he had convinced himself it should have AND that he'd
never sinned.
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T-Bone
Thinking about Skyrider's and Wordwolf's posts about VPW the phrase "blind leading the blind" comes to mind. And really most of the posts on this thread so far, have been along those lines – to which I totally agree. And if I may continue to be master of the obvious, most of the posters so far have been out of TWI for awhile [myself included]. But what has intrigued me the most about this topic is the way these type of questions [like "Why didn't VPW confront TWI's straying from the truth?"] may evolve [re-defining the problem] in each person's mind as they continue to analyze things after getting out of TWI. I think how we define a problem also sets how we plot a solution or come to some sort of conclusion.
I read a story in The Thinker's Toolkit by Morgan Jones: A man awoke one morning aware of a small puddle of water in the middle of his king-size water bed. To fix the hole in the water bed, he rolled it outside and filled it with more water so it would be easier to find the leak. But the huge water bed mattress, bloated with water became impossible to control, rolled down his sloping backyard and crashed into the thorny bushes - shredded beyond repair. He decided to buy a standard bed. The next morning he awoke to find a small wet spot in the middle of his new bed. The upstairs bathroom had a leaky drain. Lesson of the story – He defined the problem by thinking "how can I fix the leak in my water bed?" What he should have asked was "what is the source of the water on my bed?"
My thinking in the months after hearing Geer's Patriarch was along the lines of VPW did confront TWI [according to Geer's Patriarch] for straying from the truth, and what we as Corps are supposed to do about getting it back on track… A subliminal message of Corps training is you fly by having your autopilot engaged – that's believing God is guiding the Board of Trustees – trust them. A big question I kept thinking is "how could this happen to the ministry that has more of the rightly-divided Word of God than anyone else on earth?" After months of seeing the Board of Trustees make no effort to address the issues – I figured the autopilot has failed – I disengaged it by turning my brain on.
My question evolved into "Did it go wrong because it wasn't based on something right?" That has driven me to dig into many intellectual/doctrinal issues and since I've joined Grease Spot Café, moral issues as well. Of course, what's "right" is a matter of opinion – but in my early Ex-TWI days, I was slowly gaining the courage to think for myself.
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Nottawayfer
Why would VPW think things would have been any different than he had taught and set by example???
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justloafing
I just read this thread and was at HQ towards the end and at the end of vp's life. I could not say it any better than Linda Z said it in her post. I had the exact same impression she did.
So now Linda I have lumped you with me, a babbling old f@rt. :)
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Linda Z
Hey, JL, we babbling old farts have to stick together. Hmmm, we must know each other. I'll PM you.
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Sunesis
Wordwolf, I never knew VP said that before died. That shows me, a) the "law of believing" doesn't work, and it didn't work for VP either; and (ii) he was not all there - how could he, at the end of his life, wonder what he had done wrong? If he didn't get that adultry, fornication, etc. were not becoming a man of God - well, I'm just incredulous that he didn't "get" that he had done anything wrong. He thought he was a-ok, didn't he?
I do not believe he was born again. An angel of light maybe.
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bliss
T- great analogy.
The Way is STILL trying to fix the leak in the water bed. Unfortunately they ARE also aware of the SOURCE of the leaks. Just silly Wayfers aren't. So, they sit and watch them fix the leaks, but nothing really changes.
So they wait..........
The kicker for me leaving was VPW. When I saw that he was totally out to lunch and did such unthinkable things, I knew FINALLY, right then, that this "ministry" was built on sand.
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jardinero
I thought I'd add a couple of thoughts from a post I made over a year ago on an old thread entitled "VPW, Cancer and Gartmore". This is talking about the opening night of our first year in residence Family Corps XI, August 1984. I think you'll see a little perspective of his concerns for some of his pet programs in my post. This is just months before he died and he was already quite ill:
Another post was from my recollection of a SNS hookup we attended just prior to this time (would have been the summer of 1984), shortly after VP had suffered an almost never discussed stroke:
Anyway, just some thoughts to throw into the mix. I don't think people really realized just how sick he was during the 83-85 time frame. Could have impacted his decision to talk, confront, or not to - - depending on how he felt.
J.
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doojable
True - but it DID get Loy Boy an excuse to hang around a bunch of women with great bodies. Heck, he even had them fawning on him with some lame excuse that the minister would be the object of love or some such nonsense.
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