Note that this occurred in the PCUSA, which is the largest among a number of Presbyterian denominations in the United States.
Although it seems likely that all denominations have their sets of issues and problems, stuff like this has not arisen in the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) or the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC).
----------------------------
Following is a link to a report on this at The Layman Online, published by some folks in the PCUSA who are generally critical of stuff that has occurred in their own denomination.
Some of them would be good rock group names, others naming something that is legal to engage in other places than Ohio.
You can paint a face on a melon and call it your crazy uncle but it doesn't make it so. They'll get about as much back as the melon contributes at a family reunion. Hmmm, perhaps the melon will do better; at least that gives some nourishment. :unsure:
I'm diveded on this. I think any attempt to make Scripture "correct" is abominable; but anything that shows how silly the trinity is is okay in my book!
..... Yeah! Gawd forbid anyone endeavoring to change scripture to make it either easier to understand or to have it fit according to their POVs. ..........................
....................
.......... Oh wait a minute! That's been done already over and over the past centuries by just about every orthodox church in the book! :o
I'm diveded on this. I think any attempt to make Scripture "correct" is abominable; but anything that shows how silly the trinity is is okay in my book!
George
Proper correction of scripture doesn't appear to me to be part of the plan. As to the trinity being made to look silly, well I don't have a twi brain on that stuff anymore so I've a tad more understanding than allowed to have in that group, no personal cut intended SaintGeorge.
I think you nailed it better than anybody else on this thread. The PC trying to be pc.
That's what appears to be happening, not only in the PCUSA but in many of the "traditional" Protestant denominations. The episcopals, the methodists, the UCC, significant parts of the lutherans (particularly the ELCA), and so on. They seem to be straying away from the principles upon which they were founded in order to try to stay "relevant" in society.
An examination of the membership roles of these denominations also shows that they are shrinking fairly significantly as time goes on.
Are these compromises an attempt to stop the bleed or did compromise cause the bleed? (the chicken-egg argument)
Are these compromises an attempt to stop the bleed or did compromise cause the bleed?
Im a little more familiar with the Episcopalians than the Presby's, but from my limited vantage point, since they have decided to become 'trendy', (ordaining gay bishops etc.) they (the Episcopalians) in some spots are fracturing as fast as Humpty Dumpty. What they may be gaining in any new membership they are more than losing, in not only long term members leaving , but in some instances entire churches leaving the denomination.
And what assurance lies in man's understanding of importance!
Who of us posters on this thread would take on the role of defining such a thing, making rule of what is relevant for society? We argue the color of the sun in 'tacks, we hold different views regarding marriage, we raise our children with some variance one to the other. Who of us would be the one who could be trusted to determine spiritual relevance for society?
The last church I was involved in ( 3 yrs ago) was PCusa. I got the impression that it was a church with a huge schism on the way. The pastor was an ultra liberal--she talked about 'sacred space' and other stuff I recognised from pagan readings. Most of the congregation was elderly, and conservative--they didn't much care for the pastor. But in the congregation was a group of ultra liberal women, mostly in their thirties, who liked the pastor and were wanting change.
The pastor moved on to a bigger church about the time I left...but the congregation had a heck of a time finding another, because the pastors coming out of seminary were so liberal, and the conservatives in the church were looking for a conservative. They were without a pastor for a year, and I've heard that now they have another liberal woman pastor...
I've thought that in the next twenty years or so, we might see the liberal liturgicals form their own church, and leave the PCusa, Episcopol and Church of Christ( the liberal one, not the other one)...there are some pretty liberal Methodists out there, too.
I heard that a pastor (a guest pastor) the church I was speaking of really liked was Disciple of Christ, a completely different denomination. I don't know how they will mend the breech at this point. It looks like a split in the future to me.
The other big concern was age--most of the church members were elderly, with only about a fifth of the church members being under fifty. The culture of the church was that much of the business of the church was done by volunteers who did not work day jobs, the retirees.Where would that church be in ten years? Who would replace the volunteers? I have to admit one (not all) of the reasons I left was because of of the constant need to be on this committee or do that job. Working full time, three kids...how much time did I have? It seemed too much, especially since I was having doubts etc about spiritual things in my life.
The Presbyterian Church (USA) is the largest of the three Presbyterian groups with 2.3 million members and 11,000 congregations.
What “three” Presbyterian “groups” is the UPI writer talking about. The statement makes no sense. There certainly are more than three Presbyterian denominations. In addition to the PCUSA, there are:
The Presbyterian Church in America (PCA);
The Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC);
The Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARP);
The Reformed Presbyterian Church in North America (RPCNA);
The Korean-American Presbyterian Church
The Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC)'
The Bible Presbyterian Church;
The Westminster Presbyterian Church in the United States;
The Cumberland Presbyterian Church (This group denies unconditional election and IMO should drop “Presbyterian” from its name).
(The above list is not exhaustive. There are more.)
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Pirate1974
My personal favorite is "Fire That Consumes, Sword That Divides, and Storm That Melts Mountains."
That sounds like it came right out of "Lord of the Rings."
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prayingfordaylight
You forgot the one they always use...
WATER, ICE AND STEAM
or
GRANDPA, DAD AND SON.
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oilfieldmedic
Rock-Paper-Scissors?
...and another thing...why does Alabama have to in the news for all this weird stuff...
so what if we have goats in our cars and kitchens... :blink:
so what if the majority of us are now learning to read... :(
c'mon we're sick of it...JUST SICK OF IT
You tell em' medic!
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Cynic
Note that this occurred in the PCUSA, which is the largest among a number of Presbyterian denominations in the United States.
Although it seems likely that all denominations have their sets of issues and problems, stuff like this has not arisen in the Presbyterian Church in America (PCA) or the Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC).
----------------------------
Following is a link to a report on this at The Layman Online, published by some folks in the PCUSA who are generally critical of stuff that has occurred in their own denomination.
http://layman.org/layman/news/2006-general...is-received.htm
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mstar1
Im sort of partial to
Wang
Dang
Doodle
Is Plotinus still around? I'd like to hear his take.
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jardinero
Yeah, where oh where IS Plots?
I'm rather missing his moving thoughts on weekends.
J.
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ChattyKathy
Some of them would be good rock group names, others naming something that is legal to engage in other places than Ohio.
You can paint a face on a melon and call it your crazy uncle but it doesn't make it so. They'll get about as much back as the melon contributes at a family reunion. Hmmm, perhaps the melon will do better; at least that gives some nourishment. :unsure:
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GeorgeStGeorge
I'm diveded on this. I think any attempt to make Scripture "correct" is abominable; but anything that shows how silly the trinity is is okay in my book!
George
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dmiller
It's just the PC trying to be *pc*. ;)
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GarthP2000
..... Yeah! Gawd forbid anyone endeavoring to change scripture to make it either easier to understand or to have it fit according to their POVs.
..........................
....................
.......... Oh wait a minute! That's been done already over and over the past centuries by just about every orthodox church in the book! :o
<_<
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ChattyKathy
Proper correction of scripture doesn't appear to me to be part of the plan. As to the trinity being made to look silly, well I don't have a twi brain on that stuff anymore so I've a tad more understanding than allowed to have in that group, no personal cut intended SaintGeorge.
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markomalley
I think you nailed it better than anybody else on this thread. The PC trying to be pc.
That's what appears to be happening, not only in the PCUSA but in many of the "traditional" Protestant denominations. The episcopals, the methodists, the UCC, significant parts of the lutherans (particularly the ELCA), and so on. They seem to be straying away from the principles upon which they were founded in order to try to stay "relevant" in society.
An examination of the membership roles of these denominations also shows that they are shrinking fairly significantly as time goes on.
Are these compromises an attempt to stop the bleed or did compromise cause the bleed? (the chicken-egg argument)
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mstar1
Im a little more familiar with the Episcopalians than the Presby's, but from my limited vantage point, since they have decided to become 'trendy', (ordaining gay bishops etc.) they (the Episcopalians) in some spots are fracturing as fast as Humpty Dumpty. What they may be gaining in any new membership they are more than losing, in not only long term members leaving , but in some instances entire churches leaving the denomination.
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ChattyKathy
And what assurance lies in man's understanding of importance!
Who of us posters on this thread would take on the role of defining such a thing, making rule of what is relevant for society? We argue the color of the sun in 'tacks, we hold different views regarding marriage, we raise our children with some variance one to the other. Who of us would be the one who could be trusted to determine spiritual relevance for society?
No jab intended but get my drift?
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Bramble
The last church I was involved in ( 3 yrs ago) was PCusa. I got the impression that it was a church with a huge schism on the way. The pastor was an ultra liberal--she talked about 'sacred space' and other stuff I recognised from pagan readings. Most of the congregation was elderly, and conservative--they didn't much care for the pastor. But in the congregation was a group of ultra liberal women, mostly in their thirties, who liked the pastor and were wanting change.
The pastor moved on to a bigger church about the time I left...but the congregation had a heck of a time finding another, because the pastors coming out of seminary were so liberal, and the conservatives in the church were looking for a conservative. They were without a pastor for a year, and I've heard that now they have another liberal woman pastor...
I've thought that in the next twenty years or so, we might see the liberal liturgicals form their own church, and leave the PCusa, Episcopol and Church of Christ( the liberal one, not the other one)...there are some pretty liberal Methodists out there, too.
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markomalley
I do feel sorry for the more conservative/ orthodox members of these churches. Like their denominations have left them behind.
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Bramble
I heard that a pastor (a guest pastor) the church I was speaking of really liked was Disciple of Christ, a completely different denomination. I don't know how they will mend the breech at this point. It looks like a split in the future to me.
The other big concern was age--most of the church members were elderly, with only about a fifth of the church members being under fifty. The culture of the church was that much of the business of the church was done by volunteers who did not work day jobs, the retirees.Where would that church be in ten years? Who would replace the volunteers? I have to admit one (not all) of the reasons I left was because of of the constant need to be on this committee or do that job. Working full time, three kids...how much time did I have? It seemed too much, especially since I was having doubts etc about spiritual things in my life.
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Cynic
What “three” Presbyterian “groups” is the UPI writer talking about. The statement makes no sense. There certainly are more than three Presbyterian denominations. In addition to the PCUSA, there are:
The Presbyterian Church in America (PCA);
The Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC);
The Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARP);
The Reformed Presbyterian Church in North America (RPCNA);
The Korean-American Presbyterian Church
The Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC)'
The Bible Presbyterian Church;
The Westminster Presbyterian Church in the United States;
The Cumberland Presbyterian Church (This group denies unconditional election and IMO should drop “Presbyterian” from its name).
(The above list is not exhaustive. There are more.)
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markomalley
Cynic,
The reporter is probably talking about the PCUSA, PCA, and OPC...if I was to guess.
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MizMarple
plop plop fizz fizz oh what a relief it is....
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T-Bone
I think that would be a Quadruplet - - no - wait - that's 2 plops and 2 fizzes - I don't know - Duality Squared?
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dmiller
trinity -- plus an acknowledgement to the *unknown* god.
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