Did twi simply shatter into a bunch of 'readjusted' twi's?

[CoolWaters]

I have often wondered if twi shrank...

Or if twi simply got more spread out.

Kinda like a dandelion seed head: a good wind will spread that seed far and wide.

Isn't it just the same thing in different clothing if twi material is taught?

[mstar1]

Thats been my view for quite awhile-- i dont participate in any groups but I know of plenty that have changed minor things but still operate and teach basically the same way.

The usually pride themselves on how they are different and have 'grown' --but to my eyes and ears they are exactly the same

[pond]

Twi taught alot of data or belief systems .

I really do not believe people walk away from what they learned.

different color flavor or outfit but the inside stuff that "changed" them from before till after twi stayed the same .

The thing I noticed about people involved in twi or even inmany churches is they really believe from the gut they are saving the world with their litttle piece of the pie and what they offer.

twi really instilled a Saviour complex in so many.. now they seek and often find someone thing to continue to rescue, to valadate who they must be because they have a inside mission to be able to KNOW what they KNOW>

the fact the offshoots are strong is indicative of how strong that feeling of being the one who has to "be the hands"

Im sorry but why would God NEED hands and eyes or any body part? to do his job? He created people hello.

the bible is quite the story told over and over and I do think in america it is a value that folks tend to take certain camp with.

twi put an extra spin on it by talking of the power one could atttain by using it as a source , people like power people like having answers to life people flock towards those who can and do think like them.

[goodseed]

I have had plenty of opportunities to join groups consisting mainly of ex-wayfers, and have not been able to do so. If it looks like a dog and barks like a dog....

For those who want that, I say have at it, but even the church experience is too much for me, and I was a faithful church-goer before twi.

[pond]

I pray about that fact alot.

after twi and a time with the off shoot I am so gun shy I do not want to get involved in anything.

either it is problem with "doctrine" or problems with people sinning , I do not know but it is a sad sad thing for me.

I was robbed I think. Im toast on all of that now. cant do it. mental isssues every time. I was not born this way I learned it somehow.

[johniam]

quote: Isn't it just the same thing in different clothing if twi material is taught?

It's not just the material; it's also who teaches it and who else listens to it. Some first grade teachers are more abusive than others. Some first grade classes have less bullies than others. Either ways you're stuck with whoever you were stuck with. True, you HAVE to sit through first grade even if you're home schooled but you don't have to sit through TWI or church, but aren't the same overall politics in place no matter who teaches you what?

There's a lot of "revisionist history" going on here. People who in TWI were genuinely delivered from bad stuff yet now they claim TWI screwed up their whole lives.

quote: Im sorry but why would God NEED hands and eyes or any body part? to do his job?

1 Cor. 12:18 - but now hath God set the members every one of them in the body as it hath pleased Him.

Ask Him.

[pond]

as it has pleased him.

God is God, people are still thinking that they are God .

If all of creation died would God still be God? YEP!!!

but if God was dead would people be alive? NO!!!

See the difference?

people get big heads thinking they are doing the "will" of God for people and it is one HUGE joke. It is a power play in which twi and many of these types of groups enjoy playing they are so important to the world it just wouldnt be right without them.

and it is a lie. God made man to worship HIM and only HIM.. these thought patterns of how one believer is saving the life or mind or whatever of another is a power play, people do not heal anyone.

people do not save anyone or give them eternal life. ]

We have a Saviour and that is his job. and sorry for all you mini wanna be's IN the IM a Saviour camp it just isnt written as such.

This whole "as He is" is a joke and a a power because someone who has been in twi or an off shoot or "born again" or read the latest is a bigger better "as He is" right?

they can heal and demand devil spirts and all the whole lie they live with everyday. power power power!

it is a lie.

Jesus says to come to HIM as a little child and a little child doesnt practice his skills . A childs hands and eyes are unlearned as to what a bible may say or what people may need.

no they are humble and love and that is about all it takes. IN real terms of how Jesus the ONLY CHRIST says it is to be done.

Jesus says not to seek signs. people boost about how they knew God because of.... (insert story of the time they succeeded in a religous venture here)

hence the need to seek another group that feeds the heirarchy of the very Power plays they need to feed the beast of how they are the most powerful one .

The way of this thinking takes Jesus Christ and all of the human need for a SAviour out of the life of humans and allows them to be the one and only for God who is bigger and better and has friends to prove it !

I honestly believe many are going to be surprised to Meet Jesus some day when they say to HM oh that was you all along helping and loving mankind for the Father? silly people and they thought it was all about what they did for God .

like what exactly? Has anyone not sinned other than the ONE God and ONE Saviour? NO not in their estimation.

But groups and people now now now they will help you power play your abilities and know it all control of one another! anything to take the mind off christ and WHO He is to mankind.

It must be about man and what He/she can do for God .. wrong!!

It is about Jesus christ and what He has DONE for mankind !

But if a believer can believe they have this powerin life is that not how the snake tempted the believers in the garden? If you do this you will be LIKE God!!

still the lie is working.

[rascal]

But John..is it revising history if involvement with twi DID screw up our lives?

Pond, I dissagree about holding on to beliefs learned...possibly it is true for you.....but most people I know have completely disregarded our strongly held beliefs aquired in twi.

After seeing scriptures and God be used to manipulate and hurt people, used as tools to aquire that which the user desired...It is difficult to have confidence in any bible based doctrine...it is difficult to have confidence in a God whom following bible teachers would result in such abuse in his name.

In other words...twi involvement proved to be more of a destroyer of faith, instrumental introducing a lack of confidence when the magic formulas and principles failed to produce the promised results.

[CoolWaters]

johniam,

You bring up some valid points.

The point about 1st grade is a good one because it separates the material from the teacher(s). I am hearing that no matter who teaches you 1st grade, you gotta learn it somehow.

Exploring that line a bit more...

It is common knowledge that not all children learn what they need to learn in 1st grade. Some school districts opt for certain material while others opt out of that same material. I don't know if there are national standards for what to teach in 1st grade (or any other grade for that matter).

I'm more knowledgeable about college courses...what can be transferred, what can't...what expires after so many years, what doesn't. Any group can have a 'college' (like twi), but not every college is accredited. The material is very important. As is the teacher. Anybody can teach something, but not everybody is qualified to teach, oh, let's say English 101.

I think it is the same with twi material and the 'teachers'. Is it good enough material to measure up to certain standards? Are the 'teachers' qualified and able to measure up to certain standards?

Because twi material (or any church's material) deals with religion, most people don't even consider measuring the material against any standard...except their own emotional standards...like, "I had never before understood things so clearly", or, "I had never before met anybody so sure of themselves."

And lawdy don't get me started on the 'teachers'!!!!! <_<

VPW had enough actual education to be qualify as at least a substitute teacher outside of twi. LCM has enough education to qualify as a teacher outside of twi. From what I've read, RR is--or was--a teacher outside of twi.

And we all learned...quite well, to boot.

Then there were the other 'teachers'...those totally unqualified people put in leadership positions who took what they were taught and mostly (imo) bullied it onto the rest of us. And, more often than not, skewed what they were taught to the point that I don't think there is any group of more than 10 people on GSC who were taught the same material. Maybe we took the same classes, but how those classes were interpreted in individual fellowships...well...you've seen the arguments here. :B)

In the end, twi is an abusive, narrow-minded cult...both because of the material and because of the 'teachers'.

Which is probably the point that is at the root of my question.

And now to this statement of yours: "There's a lot of "revisionist history" going on here. People who in TWI were genuinely delivered from bad stuff yet now they claim TWI screwed up their whole lives."

For many, many years my thoughts went in this direction. In fact, this thinking has been at the back of mind all along. Until just last night...when I read something in the book, Thief of Souls by Darian North. On pages 132 and 133. The conversation is between a man (Dan), whose wife disappeared into a cult, and a deprogrammer.

"How do cults instill their victims with such fear of being saved?" Dan asked quietly.

"By 'saved' I assume you mean saved from the cult--and you're talking about the distress and fear that victims show when someone tries to get them out and return them to their normal lives."

"Yes."

"Some people think it's related to the Stockholm syndrome, where victims begin to identify with their kidnappers, but I see it as a lot less exotic than that. I see it as a twisting around of some basic human needs and insecurities. If you think about it, at any given time most people have something they'd like to be saved from--unhappiness, depression, loneliness, stress, emptiness, joblessness, addiction, self-hatred, uncertainty, bad grades in school, divorce, thinning hair...you name it. Cults catch people during vulnerable periods and offer a sort of blanket salvation, saving people by taking control of their lives and eliminating free will. Do you follow me?"

"I'm not sure."

"It's like a return to childhood, where you're taken care of and you're not responsible for making your own decisions anymore."

"But that wouldn't necessarily cure depression or stress or thinning hair," Dan said.

"The surrender of self feels so good that it seems like the cult has taken away every burden. People feel like they've been saved because they no longer have choice or the power to change things, and so the weight of changing or curing whatever was wrong is lifted from them. And in some cases they actually have been saved. Addicts are cleaned up because they no longer have access to substances. Joblessness is cured by joining a commune-style cult because work is then assigned by the cult. Lots of psychological problems are cured because the cult keeps people so busy and exhausted and overwhelmed with rhetoric that they never have an opportunity to think or to realize that their lives still aren't perfect. Do you follow what I'm saying now?"

"Yes."

"So--it's not that people resist being returned to their normal lives because they're afraid of being saved. They believe the cult saved them from their other lives. The cult is the savior. And outsiders are seen as trying to rip them out of paradise. Which means that what I have to do is convince them that their cult's leader is a false savior. That the cult is based on lies and manipulations. Then I show them that true salvation is in returning to the real world and the people who love them."

So I no longer see that anybody was 'delivered' in twi. I now see that people were kept too busy, too rattled, too something to be concerned with or continue in their problems.

A perfect example of this is how people literally denied and ignored health problems in twi. Once they got out of twi, suddenly they were sick. They even thought that the prediction of bad things happening because they left twi was truth. Until they realized that they were sick in twi but just denied and ignored it all.

And I see that those of us who simply jump on the next bandwagon that beats a similar drum as twi's don't change out of the cult mentality. I can say "us" because I went there and did that...so I'm not judging anybody.

Edited June 29, 2006 by CoolWaters

[oldiesman]

I have often wondered if twi shrank...

Or if twi simply got more spread out.

Kinda like a dandelion seed head: a good wind will spread that seed far and wide.

Isn't it just the same thing in different clothing if twi material is taught?

Yes I agree if the teachings are the same. The more offshoots there are, teaching the same things, the more good doctrine (or evil, depending on one's point of view) becomes more readily available when there are folks willing to spread it.

I'd say it's actually better, for the longevity of the doctrine, to have numerous offshoots spreading the same thing. If/when one offshoot dies or gets boring (twi?), there are others still spreading it.

[CoolWaters]

Does it matter, OM, if the material gets tweaked here and there?

Good to see you again, btw.

[oldiesman]

I think it would matter yes. Depends on what material is being tweaked and how much tweaking is going on. :) :D

Good to read you too. :P

[George Aar]

I guess I'd be more interested in this stuff if I saw any benefit from clinging to the wacky belief system.

Hell, I never saw any benefit from it when I was a dedicated Wayfer - nor did I notice any tangible benefits in anybody else's life either. But did that stop us? NOOOOooo...

If all just strikes me as kinda funny now. About the same as hearing somebody blather on about Amway, or Shaklee or some other MLM-du-jour. Gawd, get a grip already people. It was a scam.

Edited June 29, 2006 by George Aar

[pond]

Can you see my point when I think anything can become cult like if you allow it to dictate to your lie?

co-depency issues are HUGE in our country. and it isnt all about drugs and alcohol abuse.

many co-dependents would never take a sip or a smoke.

it is about allowing another to take your life and do as they will .

YOU allow it you often times activly chose it it is easier to manage a life with zero accountability or responsibility for ones own self.

If it goes wrong it is not YOU but rather they said to do or say it in just a way. .

many people live in this system without a self or with a very diminished self that is dictated to by others.

I do not think it was just twi that allowed this to happen I think we reward those who want to control others in our culture. We also reward co-dependents . It is deeply ingrained in many systems .

Rascal

I agree some did do a 180 but the title of this thread is about readjusted twi's thinking.

twi fed into a co-dependent mind set. co-dependecy is a issue that is across our culture . refusal of a responsibility for self is quite common amoung certain communities and thinking. How many times did you here "addicts" used to the bible and its writings? hmm.. no I do not think it was iroic I think it was telling it was a co-dependant system.

co-depency and its issues are a topic of discussion in and of itself.

[CoolWaters]

OK, OM, how much tweaking would it take to make it not twi material any longer?

[Tom Strange]

(snip)... but even the church experience is too much for me, and I was a faithful church-goer before twi

That's too bad goodseed... I'd suggest you keep trying though and eventually (hopefully) the 'shackles of PFAL and TWI' will leave you...

As many know here I've long held that the majority of PFAL was spent putting down churches... more time telling us how wrong and evil "they" were and how right TWI was... that's a hard thing to break through, but you can, you can...

[skyrider]

Does it matter, OM, if the material gets tweaked here and there?

Or.............does it matter that veepee took B.G. Leonard's material and pawned it off as his own?? And, years later, tweaked it with some Bullinger, some Stiles, some "law of believing" hoopla.....and the end result is tweaked and twacked to death.

Holy men of God spake as they were moved by Holy Spirit......no tweaking needed. Had wierwille been a real mog, he would have known that.

[SafariVista]

Those that I know that are out of TWI and run or participate in similar style 'fellowships', would NOT think of coming to this Cafe'... let's see... they don't think there's any profit in re-hashing all this 'stuff' <_<

[allan w.]

Firstly...no, I don't think it matters that VP trumpeted other peoples workings of the Word. I doubt I ever would of heard if it had been left to the Stiles or Bullingerites or any of the others. VP took it, re-worked some of it and then 'ran' with it. Took a gamble on it and it 'paid off'.

Secondly...I think there's a differn'ce between 'saving the world' and going and doing the things that Jesus said to do, albeit, a small differn'ce (depending on the individuals view )

Thirdly...peoples mistreatment by twi will be a very pale excuse before the Goodman of the House (imo) for not continuing on the journey (way) they WERE called to. (mvho of course) !

[templelady]

Thirdly...peoples mistreatment by twi will be a very pale excuse before the Goodman of the House (imo) for not continuing on the journey (way) they WERE called to. (mvho of course) !

Could it be that many of us have indeed continued on the journey we were called too, freed from the shackles of Piffledom. I, imo, surmise that maintaining that one held to the truth of Piffle will be a very pale excuse before the Goodman of the House when called to account as to why one continued to mistreat people.

[Goey]

OK, OM, how much tweaking would it take to make it not twi material any longer?

Maybe a better question would be, how much tweaking would it take to make it a valid and effective form of Christianity.

[goodseed]

That's too bad goodseed... I'd suggest you keep trying though and eventually (hopefully) the 'shackles of PFAL and TWI' will leave you...

As many know here I've long held that the majority of PFAL was spent putting down churches... more time telling us how wrong and evil "they" were and how right TWI was... that's a hard thing to break through, but you can, you can...

Tom S,

Thanks for the exhortation. Even while I was under the influence of twi, I maintained, and still maintain that there are hundreds of thousands of wonderful Christian people in churches. I often have wonderful conversations with great believers of all denominations. I do believe that over time I will probably trust more and be more comfortable in a church setting. I certainly don't hate them or fear them - they're just not for me right now. But, you know, if I felt a need to "connect" with believers it would be in a church - not in a twi offshoot.

[dmiller]

Tom S,

Thanks for the exhortation. Even while I was under the influence of twi, I maintained, and still maintain that there are hundreds of thousands of wonderful Christian people in churches. I often have wonderful conversations with great believers of all denominations. I do believe that over time I will probably trust more and be more comfortable in a church setting. I certainly don't hate them or fear them - they're just not for me right now. But, you know, if I felt a need to "connect" with believers it would be in a church - not in a twi offshoot.

You're ahead of the *curve*.

Many decent folks out there, in other denominations. :)

[GrouchoMarxJr]

I guess I'd be more interested in this stuff if I saw any benefit from clinging to the wacky belief system.

Hell, I never saw any benefit from it when I was a dedicated Wayfer - nor did I notice any tangible benefits in anybody else's life either. But did that stop us? NOOOOooo...

If all just strikes me as kinda funny now. About the same as hearing somebody blather on about Amway, or Shaklee or some other MLM-du-jour. Gawd, get a grip already people. It was a scam.

I agree...

[jr4jc]

the way taught great stuff and everybody on here or anywhere that talks bad about them i think is saying they taught some good stuff but not enough---we wouldn't be putting them down if it was ALL BAD< we'd just walk away - i think WE saw light at the end of tunnel and thought the way would get us there--how to get there is simple,

walk with GOD personally

churchs are fine, BUT no where in the bible are we told to meet weekly or on sunday so go if and when you want to---NO WHERE In the bible are we told to give authority to any MAN, " the head of the man is CHRIST"

so if you go to church don't give that away--and yes the WAY took that in many ways.

my eyes were opened with focus on the family and promise keepers and joni erickson tada and billy grahm and many others -- after leaving the way i saw GOD wasn't near as concerned about the trinity as i was, HE did miracles and healings lots of places,

as for the ways teachings and formulas--i had an eye opener that came years after the fact--a friend [wow brother] and i were hitch hiking a lot that year and we prayed for LOTS of rides for future days about 30 different scenarios and my favorite was i prayed to get picked up in a rolls royce and you KNOW the first rolls royce i ever saw in person was the one that stopped and picked me up and gave me a ride, but anyway we prayed for about 30 rides, and got about 20 of those, that later [years later] showed me GOD HEARD ME AND HE IS GOD NOT SANTA CLAUSE OR A GENIE -- and that was powerful to me

2cor1;3 ¶ Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

GOD does use us but i also agree the HE has no hands but our hands stuff is egotisical he's could have evangalizing doneky's as we know, when HE works through us it is us joining HIM in HIS work [that is from experiencing GOD- a very good course]

joining HIM in HIS work is a privledge cause HE could do it without us, angles donkeys other people....

i was about to stop coming to this web site before i saw this poll-- i do not like to around ex-wayers in numbers because, and especially in numbers they have not strayed far enough toward the truth for me.

Edited July 5, 2006 by jr4jc