Each individual sin we commit, we commit by our choice. But according to the Bible, the fact that we WILL sin is fairly well settled.
I believe in the sacrifice of Christ. I believe in his sinless life and his atoning death. I believe in his resurrection and I hope for his return.
The Bible never holds ANY group responsible for his death. His sacrifice was voluntary. He did that because he wanted to, for the joy that was set before him. It's not my fault he died. It's not my fault he suffered. Nor is it yours. It's not the Jews' fault and it's not the Romans.
In the column chwester quotes at the start of this thread, Cal Thomas writes of a friend of his who turned to him and said, yeah, that could have been me in that crowd. Yep. I would have been in that crowd, cheering, yelling "crucify him," so convinced I was right that I would not have seen what a colossal mistake I was making.
Do you ever stop to think of how horribly few people stood with him at the end? Oh, I want to think I'd have had the spiritual acuity and integrity to recognize who he was and stand with him at the end. Truth is, I would probably have denied him so many times I'd put Peter and Thomas to shame.
And he went and died anyway. He gave me life anyway.
I'm not responsible for Christ's death. Not even Biblically. Biblically, it's Adam's fault if anyone's. But Biblically, Jesus didn't HAVE to do it. He chose to.
That I choose him is really a pittance in return. How remarkable that it's all he asks of me.
quote:Do you ever stop to think of how horribly few people stood with him at the end? Oh, I want to think I'd have had the spiritual acuity and integrity to recognize who he was and stand with him at the end. Truth is, I would probably have denied him so many times I'd put Peter and Thomas to shame.
quote:Words without meaning are very much like meaningless words, Rafael. You should know that, being a journalist, sort of.
First, the fact that you don't know the meaning of certain words does not make those words meaningless. It makes you unaware of their meaning.
Second, what's with the personal attack, dummy?
Rafael, not being a native English speaker (I presume), you may be unaware that "meaningless" means "without meaning."
Now, Rafael, a word might be meaningless to you, but not to me. Take the word "meaningless." Obviously, I know what it means, but to you, it's meaningless, or, without meaning. Ironically, you may believe otherwise. What fun!
Now, to the English and/or Spanish speaking audiences of The Passion, the Aramaic dialog, or "words," will be "meaning-less," or without meaning, and as such they are called "meaningless."
The apprehension of meaning is often a subjective experience, and not a universal experience, as I am certain there are many who speak Aramaic quite well. What a wonderful coincidence that "art" is created to evoke a subjective experience as well. What fun, again, what fun!
Second - now, Rafael, I would never call you a "dummy" there, knucklehead, as you have indisputably and undeniably called me. But I just might cast light-hearted aspersions upon your secular calling, since you have made of it no secret, and since your recent posts have called your language skills into question. All in fun, Rafael. Cope, dude. Cope.
What does that mean? We may hold a guilt within us so deep and intractable that nothing can dislodge it. That guilt, for lack of a better word, is "sin." It might also be called shame.
Whatever it is, few among us believe it is deserved, yet there it is. This darkness, this deadness, our most internal and private shame and sorrow dwell there as if they were a stain or a scar, a wound that never heals, sealed within the deepest chambers of our heart.
Something within us demands punishment, demands justice for this guilt. We have a powerful sense of right and wrong, don't we? Of good and of evil? Where did we get that? Animals don't think about evil. Evil goes to motive. We invent motives, for ourselves and others. We assign to them "good" or "evil."
Where we see good, it should be rewarded. Where we see evil, it should be rectified. Even when we see evil in ourselves, if we have any conscience at all, the remedy is rectification, and it requires retribution. We therefore must suffer, and at our own hands. And we do.
So then our conscience is our judge, and it is far deeper and more powerful within us than we might ever suspect. Our judge must be satisfied that the judgement is paid before the stain of guilt, the scar is removed, the wound is healed. But it's never enough. Who are we kidding? It could never be enough.
What is great enough to pay the price? What is punishment enough to satisfy the most demanding conscience?
If you might allow yourself to watch "his stripes," and allow yourself to imagine your punishment is taking place (which is your "sentence," deserved or NOT), assumed by this one without guilt, then maybe that darkness can be released. Isn't that the message?
Could seeing those stripes lacerate his back, the spikes pierce his hands and feet, the spearhead stab beneath his ribcage drawing water and blood, could it satisfy your conscience, and make you willing to part with your deepest, most closely guarded personal convictions of shame and guilt? I don't know. But I think that's the idea.
[This message was edited by QamiQazi on August 09, 2003 at 1:30.]
quote:Rafael, not being a native English speaker (I presume), you may be unaware that "meaningless" means "without meaning.'
I don't know what gave you the impression that I'm not a native English speaker, but for your information, it is my first language and also my college major.
But go on, have some more rope. Easier to hang you that way.
Really, QQ, I thought more of your sense of humor than that.
But not to worry. From now on I'll use little words so you can keep up with me.
It's
called
art
the
artist
wants
you
to
process
the
message
without
spelling
it
all
out
for
you.
[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on August 09, 2003 at 2:04.]
I was listening to a tape today from John s. about the fact he doesnt believe Jesus knew the gift was going to be available when He died. he was talking about how the new birth was not availble to the jews and they know nothing of the rapture .
So why did Jesus do it?
I think He did it because He obeyed God.
do you think he could have stopped the plan? I do I think Jesus christ could have chose to live his life in a different manner and not end up killed .
I write to remind you Jesus Christ is not the only one who has died for their christian beliefs not by a long shot look at the history of christians many have been tortured and brutaly slain in the name of faith in God.
The surprize is the new birth the fact that Jesus christ faced death in the chainsand was raised from the dead to conquer death. That is the idea of what God had planned .
It isnt the fact He died that is so amazing to me , it is the fact He LIVES that as a christian I hold dear.
the movie may compell pity for his suffering while being crucified yet many have been killed in that horrid manner , I do not think this is Gods idea of His appeal to the people to believe in His bible story, Gods plan is one of redemption and promises fullfilled not one of gross murder and bloody acting.
Why would anyone want to believe in a God that allows such horror?? It is the story of the new birth on penticost that allows us to know Gods will and heart of Love towards those who believe.
i remember when "jesus christ superstar" came out, it really did something to me deep inside, because he became real to me, no longer just a sad face on a crucifix hanging above the altar
I think there is a very strong bond between Catholics and Jews. Guilt. lol
BUT, I may feel guilting if I step on someone's toe and hurt them, for a few minutes. I may even feel guilty if something I say or do hurts someone else's feelings, though it was necessary for me to maintain my own boundaries.
However, I do not and will not feel guilty for the crucifiction of a man that took place over 2,000 years ago. I will not feel guilty for being human and committing those "sins" I had no choice about. I will not take the blame for what Adam did or anyone else for that matter, unless I was directly involved. It would be like me blaming my second son for something my first son did before the youngest was born.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
I don't think anyone should feel guilty over the death of Christ.
What he did was voluntary.
As for what John S taught, I'm a little lost on what you're saying MJ. CES clearly believes and teaches that Jesus did not know about the rapture, but he obviously knew he would return in glory. That's all Old Testament stuff. If he didn't know that, goodness, how smart could he be?
So yes, I think he did it because he was obedient, but he also did it knowing of a joyful future that included him in it. "For the joy that was set before him, he endured the cross."
quote:Originally posted by Rafael 1969:I don't know what gave you the impression that I'm not a native English speaker, but for your information, it is my first language and also my college major.
As the old saying goes, you can lead a horse to water.
I do not think Jesus "knew" the events of the last times. In other words He knew he would be back as King of King but how this effected the grace administration which began on penticost was still a mystery...
the "church" had not yet begun, the people were still living under the law at the time of his life on earth. including Jesus Christ.. His death and his meeting with the devils telling them He has conquered death changed the rules if you will and grace became the new order for life eternal..
no I do not think he new this "new ageof grace" I think he was granted it at the time of his rising to sit in authority on the right hand of God.
Jesus obviously knew the events of the end times. He predicted them and announced them.
Whether he knew about this time period separating his time from the end times is a fair question, and honest Christians disagree. You seem to believe that he did not know about this "age of grace." Wierwille agreed with that. CES agrees with that. I'm not so sure of that myself, but I know plenty of other groups agree with that.
But that's not the point I was making when I talked about "the joy that was set before him."
Do you think I'm trying to say that Jesus knew about this present time and the rapture, etc?
And the reason I ask is, I'm not sure I see the point you're raising. So please clarify.
The "joy" was being obedient and knowing Gods will for His children.
I do not think Jesus wanted to die or thought it was joyful in any way read his prayer in the garden about asking for His cup to be removed.
he simply did it to obey. He knew he was a son of God He was not the Saviour of mankind until god raised him from the dead and he completed his works.
my point is the movie passion does not really compell me to know who Jesus christ is or how God is with his people in fact I believe by making how he died a cinematic affair it takes away from the gospel of christ as one of saving the world from death into a death scene of gore by our loving Father. I do not think it will glorify Him at all.
i'm going to go back to the verse about "the joy that was set before him" to see if it's talking only about obedience or of it's talking about Christ's own future. I suspect it's the latter.
Either way, I'm humbled at the thought of his obedience, and I think it's right to call attention to it.
I got a chance to read the verse in its context. I think we've each snagged a bit of the truth in this.
Yes, this was obedience. But the knowledge of what this was going to accomplish, including his own future, seems to also have been a motivator.
As for the movie, I don't know if it will glorify him or not. It seems to be the motive of the filmmaker. Will it glorify Christ any less than some of the art that has been created through the centuries? I don't know.
ps. what the heck are "the sins of mankind(that includes us)that put the stripes on his back" ?
It was because of our sin that Jesus had to be beaten and killed. He was killed as a sacrifice for our sins.
We "were" identified with Adam. Now we are identified with Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:12-- Therefore just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men because "all" sinned.
Any human, put in Adam's place would have done the same thing.
Romans 4:25--He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Romans 5:8--But God demonstates His love for us in that while "we were still sinners" Christ died for us.
But there is no reason to have any guilt at all because just as we were originally identified with Adam, once you accept Christ as yous savior, you are identified with Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified through faith "WE HAVE PEACE WITH GOD" through our Lord Jesus Christ.
I know that being "born in sin" dosen't sound fair, but I also know that God is just and fair.
It's like when people ask me what is going to happen to people who never heard of Christ. Well, I dont know what will happen to them, but I know God is love and God is just. So, I have no need to worry about them.
I agree with QQ about the point of the movie. I think seeing it would fill me with gratitude toward Jesus Christ because of what he did for me.
Especially knowing that I did not deserve for him to go through all that for me.
I think it will definitely glorify God and Jesus by showing their incredible love for us.
MJ-without his death there would be no ressurection or Pentecost or new birth. Without his death our sins would not be paid for--and everything else would be irrelevent.
It was Christ's "death" that saved us from "death". This movie shows what Christ saved us from. And what he "chose" to endure for our sakes.
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excathedra
okay
romans 5:12
Sin came into the world because of what ONE man DID, and with sin came death. This is why everyone must die -- because everyone sinned.
thank you very much
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Raf
Well, I don't know about those verses, but we can't leave out...
Blame Canada! Blame Canada!
With all their hockey hullabaloo, and that xxxx Ann Murray too!
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excathedra
come on, you should really know.... living epistle society
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excathedra
it just dawned on me, do you think i'm kidding about how i feel ?
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Raf
Seriously?
I don't get the question.
Each individual sin we commit, we commit by our choice. But according to the Bible, the fact that we WILL sin is fairly well settled.
I believe in the sacrifice of Christ. I believe in his sinless life and his atoning death. I believe in his resurrection and I hope for his return.
The Bible never holds ANY group responsible for his death. His sacrifice was voluntary. He did that because he wanted to, for the joy that was set before him. It's not my fault he died. It's not my fault he suffered. Nor is it yours. It's not the Jews' fault and it's not the Romans.
In the column chwester quotes at the start of this thread, Cal Thomas writes of a friend of his who turned to him and said, yeah, that could have been me in that crowd. Yep. I would have been in that crowd, cheering, yelling "crucify him," so convinced I was right that I would not have seen what a colossal mistake I was making.
Do you ever stop to think of how horribly few people stood with him at the end? Oh, I want to think I'd have had the spiritual acuity and integrity to recognize who he was and stand with him at the end. Truth is, I would probably have denied him so many times I'd put Peter and Thomas to shame.
And he went and died anyway. He gave me life anyway.
I'm not responsible for Christ's death. Not even Biblically. Biblically, it's Adam's fault if anyone's. But Biblically, Jesus didn't HAVE to do it. He chose to.
That I choose him is really a pittance in return. How remarkable that it's all he asks of me.
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excathedra
that's you and that's great for you
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QamiQazi
Rafael, not being a native English speaker (I presume), you may be unaware that "meaningless" means "without meaning."
Now, Rafael, a word might be meaningless to you, but not to me. Take the word "meaningless." Obviously, I know what it means, but to you, it's meaningless, or, without meaning. Ironically, you may believe otherwise. What fun!
Now, to the English and/or Spanish speaking audiences of The Passion, the Aramaic dialog, or "words," will be "meaning-less," or without meaning, and as such they are called "meaningless."
The apprehension of meaning is often a subjective experience, and not a universal experience, as I am certain there are many who speak Aramaic quite well. What a wonderful coincidence that "art" is created to evoke a subjective experience as well. What fun, again, what fun!
Second - now, Rafael, I would never call you a "dummy" there, knucklehead, as you have indisputably and undeniably called me. But I just might cast light-hearted aspersions upon your secular calling, since you have made of it no secret, and since your recent posts have called your language skills into question. All in fun, Rafael. Cope, dude. Cope.
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QamiQazi
Scripture says, "by his stripes we are healed."
What does that mean? We may hold a guilt within us so deep and intractable that nothing can dislodge it. That guilt, for lack of a better word, is "sin." It might also be called shame.
Whatever it is, few among us believe it is deserved, yet there it is. This darkness, this deadness, our most internal and private shame and sorrow dwell there as if they were a stain or a scar, a wound that never heals, sealed within the deepest chambers of our heart.
Something within us demands punishment, demands justice for this guilt. We have a powerful sense of right and wrong, don't we? Of good and of evil? Where did we get that? Animals don't think about evil. Evil goes to motive. We invent motives, for ourselves and others. We assign to them "good" or "evil."
Where we see good, it should be rewarded. Where we see evil, it should be rectified. Even when we see evil in ourselves, if we have any conscience at all, the remedy is rectification, and it requires retribution. We therefore must suffer, and at our own hands. And we do.
So then our conscience is our judge, and it is far deeper and more powerful within us than we might ever suspect. Our judge must be satisfied that the judgement is paid before the stain of guilt, the scar is removed, the wound is healed. But it's never enough. Who are we kidding? It could never be enough.
What is great enough to pay the price? What is punishment enough to satisfy the most demanding conscience?
If you might allow yourself to watch "his stripes," and allow yourself to imagine your punishment is taking place (which is your "sentence," deserved or NOT), assumed by this one without guilt, then maybe that darkness can be released. Isn't that the message?
Could seeing those stripes lacerate his back, the spikes pierce his hands and feet, the spearhead stab beneath his ribcage drawing water and blood, could it satisfy your conscience, and make you willing to part with your deepest, most closely guarded personal convictions of shame and guilt? I don't know. But I think that's the idea.
[This message was edited by QamiQazi on August 09, 2003 at 1:30.]
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Raf
I don't know what gave you the impression that I'm not a native English speaker, but for your information, it is my first language and also my college major.
But go on, have some more rope. Easier to hang you that way.
Really, QQ, I thought more of your sense of humor than that.
But not to worry. From now on I'll use little words so you can keep up with me.
It's
called
art
the
artist
wants
you
to
process
the
message
without
spelling
it
all
out
for
you.
[This message was edited by Rafael 1969 on August 09, 2003 at 2:04.]
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mj412
Jesus Christ Was exalted to a position of Lord.
I was listening to a tape today from John s. about the fact he doesnt believe Jesus knew the gift was going to be available when He died. he was talking about how the new birth was not availble to the jews and they know nothing of the rapture .
So why did Jesus do it?
I think He did it because He obeyed God.
do you think he could have stopped the plan? I do I think Jesus christ could have chose to live his life in a different manner and not end up killed .
I write to remind you Jesus Christ is not the only one who has died for their christian beliefs not by a long shot look at the history of christians many have been tortured and brutaly slain in the name of faith in God.
The surprize is the new birth the fact that Jesus christ faced death in the chainsand was raised from the dead to conquer death. That is the idea of what God had planned .
It isnt the fact He died that is so amazing to me , it is the fact He LIVES that as a christian I hold dear.
the movie may compell pity for his suffering while being crucified yet many have been killed in that horrid manner , I do not think this is Gods idea of His appeal to the people to believe in His bible story, Gods plan is one of redemption and promises fullfilled not one of gross murder and bloody acting.
Why would anyone want to believe in a God that allows such horror?? It is the story of the new birth on penticost that allows us to know Gods will and heart of Love towards those who believe.
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excathedra
what you said QQ was something
i remember when "jesus christ superstar" came out, it really did something to me deep inside, because he became real to me, no longer just a sad face on a crucifix hanging above the altar
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Abigail
Excathedra,
I think there is a very strong bond between Catholics and Jews. Guilt. lol
BUT, I may feel guilting if I step on someone's toe and hurt them, for a few minutes. I may even feel guilty if something I say or do hurts someone else's feelings, though it was necessary for me to maintain my own boundaries.
However, I do not and will not feel guilty for the crucifiction of a man that took place over 2,000 years ago. I will not feel guilty for being human and committing those "sins" I had no choice about. I will not take the blame for what Adam did or anyone else for that matter, unless I was directly involved. It would be like me blaming my second son for something my first son did before the youngest was born.
To every man his own truth and his own God within.
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Raf
I guess I wasn't clear.
I don't think anyone should feel guilty over the death of Christ.
What he did was voluntary.
As for what John S taught, I'm a little lost on what you're saying MJ. CES clearly believes and teaches that Jesus did not know about the rapture, but he obviously knew he would return in glory. That's all Old Testament stuff. If he didn't know that, goodness, how smart could he be?
So yes, I think he did it because he was obedient, but he also did it knowing of a joyful future that included him in it. "For the joy that was set before him, he endured the cross."
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QamiQazi
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Raf
oooh, look at the pretty little worm on that hook.
Nah, I won't take it.
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mj412
I do not think Jesus "knew" the events of the last times. In other words He knew he would be back as King of King but how this effected the grace administration which began on penticost was still a mystery...
the "church" had not yet begun, the people were still living under the law at the time of his life on earth. including Jesus Christ.. His death and his meeting with the devils telling them He has conquered death changed the rules if you will and grace became the new order for life eternal..
no I do not think he new this "new ageof grace" I think he was granted it at the time of his rising to sit in authority on the right hand of God.
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Raf
Ok, mj, here's what's confusing me...
Jesus obviously knew the events of the end times. He predicted them and announced them.
Whether he knew about this time period separating his time from the end times is a fair question, and honest Christians disagree. You seem to believe that he did not know about this "age of grace." Wierwille agreed with that. CES agrees with that. I'm not so sure of that myself, but I know plenty of other groups agree with that.
But that's not the point I was making when I talked about "the joy that was set before him."
Do you think I'm trying to say that Jesus knew about this present time and the rapture, etc?
And the reason I ask is, I'm not sure I see the point you're raising. So please clarify.
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mj412
The "joy" was being obedient and knowing Gods will for His children.
I do not think Jesus wanted to die or thought it was joyful in any way read his prayer in the garden about asking for His cup to be removed.
he simply did it to obey. He knew he was a son of God He was not the Saviour of mankind until god raised him from the dead and he completed his works.
my point is the movie passion does not really compell me to know who Jesus christ is or how God is with his people in fact I believe by making how he died a cinematic affair it takes away from the gospel of christ as one of saving the world from death into a death scene of gore by our loving Father. I do not think it will glorify Him at all.
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Raf
AH!
Okay, now I get you.
i'm going to go back to the verse about "the joy that was set before him" to see if it's talking only about obedience or of it's talking about Christ's own future. I suspect it's the latter.
Either way, I'm humbled at the thought of his obedience, and I think it's right to call attention to it.
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Raf
I got a chance to read the verse in its context. I think we've each snagged a bit of the truth in this.
Yes, this was obedience. But the knowledge of what this was going to accomplish, including his own future, seems to also have been a motivator.
As for the movie, I don't know if it will glorify him or not. It seems to be the motive of the filmmaker. Will it glorify Christ any less than some of the art that has been created through the centuries? I don't know.
Tell you what: let's ask him!
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chwester
It was because of our sin that Jesus had to be beaten and killed. He was killed as a sacrifice for our sins.
We "were" identified with Adam. Now we are identified with Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:12-- Therefore just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men because "all" sinned.
Any human, put in Adam's place would have done the same thing.
Romans 4:25--He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.
Romans 5:8--But God demonstates His love for us in that while "we were still sinners" Christ died for us.
But there is no reason to have any guilt at all because just as we were originally identified with Adam, once you accept Christ as yous savior, you are identified with Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified through faith "WE HAVE PEACE WITH GOD" through our Lord Jesus Christ.
I know that being "born in sin" dosen't sound fair, but I also know that God is just and fair.
It's like when people ask me what is going to happen to people who never heard of Christ. Well, I dont know what will happen to them, but I know God is love and God is just. So, I have no need to worry about them.
Hope I helped a little.
mwah from another faith person.
Proud to be an American
www.pullingdownstrongholds.com
www.anncoulter.org
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chwester
One more thing. At one time we were "guilty". But no longer. We have been legally acquitted and found "not quilty"
Proud to be an American
www.pullingdownstrongholds.com
www.anncoulter.org
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chwester
I agree with QQ about the point of the movie. I think seeing it would fill me with gratitude toward Jesus Christ because of what he did for me.
Especially knowing that I did not deserve for him to go through all that for me.
I think it will definitely glorify God and Jesus by showing their incredible love for us.
MJ-without his death there would be no ressurection or Pentecost or new birth. Without his death our sins would not be paid for--and everything else would be irrelevent.
It was Christ's "death" that saved us from "death". This movie shows what Christ saved us from. And what he "chose" to endure for our sakes.
Proud to be an American
www.pullingdownstrongholds.com
www.anncoulter.org
[This message was edited by chwester on August 09, 2003 at 20:47.]
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Dot Matrix
Chwester:
Do you know how many are crucified with Jesus in the movie?
Does Peter deny three or six times?
And that picture of him carrying a cross -- Is he going to die on a tree or a cross he had to carry?
I am really curious, not being sarcastic.
Dot Matrix
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