There was a time when the Sabbath-Keepers really had me going on Law. They almost had me too because without studying it for myself their arguments are truly compelling. Did you know that the Seventh-Day-Adventists are waiting for enough people to keep the Sabbath so that Lord Jesus can return? He won't return until enough people keep the fourth commandment.
Then there are the Reconstructionists who want the world to be really Christian and decent. Some return to Law. They are postmillennialists. The world gets better and better as the Kingdom-of-God continues to spread and prevail and then Christ returns.
I think there is a Natural Law. And the closer we follow it the closer we are to fine.
Sure we are under laws. No matter what religion, or even if you are of no religion, there are laws. Laws of physics, laws of relativity, laws of man, and even laws of God. What laws one chooses to follow is between the individual and God. If you break a law that God wants you to follow, He will gently (and sometimes not so gently - if you fall from a 2 story building, it will HURT) let you know.
Carl,
What you said about the 7th Day Adventists is interesting. There are Jews who hold similar beliefs about the Sabbath. Who are the Reconstructionists? You make reference to them being Christian - there are Jewish Reconstructionists as well, though obviously they are striving for the first coming and not the second. Again, more overlap in religion, which I always think is cool.
As for me, I figure (as Roy so aptly put it on another thread) what will be will be. I don't worry about the Messianic era or the 2nd coming, nor do I do anything in particular to strive to bring it about. I have enough on my plate just taking care of what I need to do each day.
As far as I gather, there are laws & laws. The natural laws (laws of physics, laws of relativity mentioned by Abi), and the laws men, and the laws of God.
Laws of men...ah, well - I don't feel like taking about them at the moment.
Actually, as far as I understand it, the OT laws of God are spiritual laws, but are based on the rudimentary elements of the creation also. The NT calls those elements weak and beggarly. They will pass, & they don't make anyone perfect. Now to me they seem mighty, but the NT tells us not to be in bondage to them, but to seek those things which are of the law of the life in Christ which are based on a more sure foundation that will not pass.
Yes this is it. There is a wonderful congregation in Fallon Nevada. They're Presbyterians. And I thought they were wonderful. In fact, before I realized I'd be moving to Gardnerville I asked to share their covenant. Of course, I'm hindu now so what the hey. A doctor of Christian Church history, who played a great role in my own evolution, thought very little of Theonomy. He said to put Law at one end of the Universe and Grace at the other end of the Universe and then they can start talking.
I karma explains a lot even though we won't know for sure until we die. With karma comes dharma. That means duty or Natural Law. A Christians dharma is to walk-by-the-Spirit.
I read over 90% of Bahnsen's book on Theonomy. I was searching for a reason to NOT keep the Sabbath. I was trying to understand WHY they thought Sunday was okay. Now it does not matter, but then I was very interested in a good explanation. I'm convinced the Christian truth is that you can fellowship on any day of the week and no one has the right to say they have more blessings from Almighty because they keep the ancient Sabbath.
I know Wierwille isn't too many people's favorite bible scholar around here, but I remember him saying that Jesus Christ IS the Sabbath; stay in Christ, & you ARE observing the Sabbath. Like so many other things, the OT Sabbath (besides it being a good idea to rest once every seven days & set it aside for God) was a form of the rest that Jesus Christ gives us. It wasn't just something he said; he had some documentation from the Word that I don't remember - anybody? Hebrews?
Ah, here you go:
Hebrews 3:11 As I swore in my wrath, ‘They will not enter into my rest.’”
12 Beware, brothers, lest perhaps there be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God;
13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today;” lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm to the end:
15 while it is said, “Today if you will hear his voice, Don't harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.”
16 For who, when they heard, rebelled? No, didn't all those who came out of Egypt by Moses?
17 With whom was he displeased forty years? Wasn't it with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18 To whom did he swear that they wouldn't enter into his rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19 We see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:1 Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps a promise being left of entering into his rest, anyone of you should seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, even as they also did, but the word they heard didn't profit them, because it wasn't mixed with faith by those who heard.
3 For we who have believed do enter into that rest, even as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, they will not enter into my rest;” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he has said this somewhere about the seventh day, “God rested on the seventh day from all his works;”
5 and in this place again, “They will not enter into my rest.”
6 Seeing therefore it remains that some should enter therein, and they to whom the good news was before preached failed to enter in because of disobedience,
7 he again defines a certain day, today, saying through David so long a time afterward (just as has been said), “Today if you will hear his voice, Don't harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day.
9 There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
10 For he who has entered into his rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from his.11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.
12 For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and is able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
13 There is no creature that is hidden from his sight, but all things are naked and laid open before the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
14 Having then a great high priest, who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold tightly to our confession.
15 For we don't have a high priest who can't be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but one who has been in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin.
Everyday is the Sabbath for those who have rested from their own works as God did from his.
Enter in to the rest of the Sabbath for we don't have a high priest who can't be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but one who has been in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin.
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Carl Smuda
There was a time when the Sabbath-Keepers really had me going on Law. They almost had me too because without studying it for myself their arguments are truly compelling. Did you know that the Seventh-Day-Adventists are waiting for enough people to keep the Sabbath so that Lord Jesus can return? He won't return until enough people keep the fourth commandment.
Then there are the Reconstructionists who want the world to be really Christian and decent. Some return to Law. They are postmillennialists. The world gets better and better as the Kingdom-of-God continues to spread and prevail and then Christ returns.
I think there is a Natural Law. And the closer we follow it the closer we are to fine.
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Abigail
Hi Roy. :)
Sure we are under laws. No matter what religion, or even if you are of no religion, there are laws. Laws of physics, laws of relativity, laws of man, and even laws of God. What laws one chooses to follow is between the individual and God. If you break a law that God wants you to follow, He will gently (and sometimes not so gently - if you fall from a 2 story building, it will HURT) let you know.
Carl,
What you said about the 7th Day Adventists is interesting. There are Jews who hold similar beliefs about the Sabbath. Who are the Reconstructionists? You make reference to them being Christian - there are Jewish Reconstructionists as well, though obviously they are striving for the first coming and not the second. Again, more overlap in religion, which I always think is cool.
As for me, I figure (as Roy so aptly put it on another thread) what will be will be. I don't worry about the Messianic era or the 2nd coming, nor do I do anything in particular to strive to bring it about. I have enough on my plate just taking care of what I need to do each day.
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Goey
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Abigail
Thanks for the link, Goey!
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year2027
God first
Beloved Carl Smuda
God loves us all my dear friend
Yes there is a Natural Law the law of love for some and the law of hate for otherss
Yes there is a Natural Law the law of love all people like themself and the love of self only
I glad you share about Sabbath-Keepers I never heard of that before
I glad you share about Reconstructionists I never heard of that before
thank you
sorry I was so slow answering
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Beloved Abigail
God loves youl my dear friend
Yes my friend God does "gently (and sometimes not so gently - if you fall from a 2 story building, it will HURT) let you know."
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Beloved Goey
God loves you my dear friend
thanks for the link too
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Tom
As far as I gather, there are laws & laws. The natural laws (laws of physics, laws of relativity mentioned by Abi), and the laws men, and the laws of God.
Laws of men...ah, well - I don't feel like taking about them at the moment.
Actually, as far as I understand it, the OT laws of God are spiritual laws, but are based on the rudimentary elements of the creation also. The NT calls those elements weak and beggarly. They will pass, & they don't make anyone perfect. Now to me they seem mighty, but the NT tells us not to be in bondage to them, but to seek those things which are of the law of the life in Christ which are based on a more sure foundation that will not pass.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Tom
God loves you my dear friend
glad you join us my dear friend
Yes the laws of the OT if done by bondage to them are weak and beggarly but if done out of the love Christ taught us they are strong and helpful
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Carl Smuda
I karma explains a lot even though we won't know for sure until we die. With karma comes dharma. That means duty or Natural Law. A Christians dharma is to walk-by-the-Spirit.
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Cynic
I have a distaste for Reconstructionists, though, for his contribution to apologetics, I do hold Greg Bahnsen in rather high esteem.
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Carl Smuda
I read over 90% of Bahnsen's book on Theonomy. I was searching for a reason to NOT keep the Sabbath. I was trying to understand WHY they thought Sunday was okay. Now it does not matter, but then I was very interested in a good explanation. I'm convinced the Christian truth is that you can fellowship on any day of the week and no one has the right to say they have more blessings from Almighty because they keep the ancient Sabbath.
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Tom
I know Wierwille isn't too many people's favorite bible scholar around here, but I remember him saying that Jesus Christ IS the Sabbath; stay in Christ, & you ARE observing the Sabbath. Like so many other things, the OT Sabbath (besides it being a good idea to rest once every seven days & set it aside for God) was a form of the rest that Jesus Christ gives us. It wasn't just something he said; he had some documentation from the Word that I don't remember - anybody? Hebrews?
Ah, here you go:
Hebrews 3:11 As I swore in my wrath, ‘They will not enter into my rest.’”
12 Beware, brothers, lest perhaps there be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God;
13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today;” lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm to the end:
15 while it is said, “Today if you will hear his voice, Don't harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.”
16 For who, when they heard, rebelled? No, didn't all those who came out of Egypt by Moses?
17 With whom was he displeased forty years? Wasn't it with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18 To whom did he swear that they wouldn't enter into his rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19 We see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.
Hebrews 4:1 Let us fear therefore, lest perhaps a promise being left of entering into his rest, anyone of you should seem to have come short of it.
2 For indeed we have had good news preached to us, even as they also did, but the word they heard didn't profit them, because it wasn't mixed with faith by those who heard.
3 For we who have believed do enter into that rest, even as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, they will not enter into my rest;” although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4 For he has said this somewhere about the seventh day, “God rested on the seventh day from all his works;”
5 and in this place again, “They will not enter into my rest.”
6 Seeing therefore it remains that some should enter therein, and they to whom the good news was before preached failed to enter in because of disobedience,
7 he again defines a certain day, today, saying through David so long a time afterward (just as has been said), “Today if you will hear his voice, Don't harden your hearts.”
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, he would not have spoken afterward of another day.
9 There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
10 For he who has entered into his rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from his.11 Let us therefore give diligence to enter into that rest, lest anyone fall after the same example of disobedience.
12 For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and is able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
13 There is no creature that is hidden from his sight, but all things are naked and laid open before the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
14 Having then a great high priest, who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold tightly to our confession.
15 For we don't have a high priest who can't be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but one who has been in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin.
Everyday is the Sabbath for those who have rested from their own works as God did from his.
Enter in to the rest of the Sabbath for we don't have a high priest who can't be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but one who has been in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin.
Resting,
Tom
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year2027
God first
Beloved Carl Smuda, Cynic, and Tom
God loves us all my dear friends
yes lets rest in Christ
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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