Kind, yes, that night he was kind. But that's not the WHOLE story.
VPW was later manipulated by the Illinois caball. After he called Rxb Kxhoe to Rome City and travelled there for a face to face meeting, I got a letter from VP that was terse and abrasive. It was clear Rxb Kxhoe and his wife had given VP the whole "she needs to be a quieter wife with her husband and be more like Dotsie" routine.
VPW knew these men were spiritually blind, deaf, and dumb enough to screw up people's lives in a major way, yet he left them in situ. For years, in fact. Just like a cancer, to continue to corrupt the truth and spread destruction.
VPW allowed to stay in place in the state of Illinois, men whom he KNEW to be abusive toward God's people. He KNEW this limb leader was a thick-headed idiot who failed to believe a person who told him a truth crucial to a person's survival. VP KNEW the AC had his head up the LC's foot, and that the BC had his up the AC's foot. VP KNEW what all these men in Illinois did to me and said to me was wrong in every sense of the word. And not only did he allow them ALL to stay in place, NOT ONE OF THEM EVER APOLOGIZED. And you know damn well if VPW had told them to apologize, they would have done it in a heartbeat.
The closest any of them ever came to apologizing was Frxnk Scxife, after LCM had his little meltdown on the tarmac of the airport in Chicago following his visit to Gartmore. After coming back from a year on staff, I told him things were fxcked up at HQ and he thought I was talking out of my head. Then, after Geer blew LCM out of the water in Scotland, on his way back home, a suicidal Craig detoured to Chicago to confide in his good buddy, Frxnk. Then Frxnk got to see for real what someone was like who was talking out of his head! Frxnk had not spoken to me directly for several years. Yet when he finally saw for himself what I had been telling him for so long was true, I was the first person he called, and the only person he told.
What is with M Wall@#$e and his obsession with "kids medical conditions??"
I was traveling back in my mind and remember him constantly reminding me that my child was going to have developmental problems, and that I should " do " this or that. Even gave me a book on it. I know he was concerned because of what was NOT happening with my kid. But I as mother, wasn't.
Fast forward years................Nothing "developmental" is wrong with my child.
maybe he really wanted to be a "doctor" in life, but instead got lured into a cult. :blink:
Sorry Cat. What access we gave to people because of our ''heart'' for God still baffles me. He will repay!
TWI leadershi! told us to "get rid of" our troubled, adopted son. We were told to drive him to downtown Seattle, push him out of the car, and drive away, never too look back or even think of him again. The branch leader at one point, verbalized regret that he couldn't gather together the "men of the city" and take this 13 year old kid outisde the gates of the suburb of Seattle where we lived, to "stone him with stones that he die".
We were counselled separately by our HFC. I don't know what my husband was told, but I was told that if my husband decided to keep him, I would have to make my own decision whether to go along with that or stand for God, which subtly meant I'd have to leave my marriage to obey God and stand forth boldly and fearlessly upon the exceedingly great and glorious wonders of the present truth.
One leader told me that if his 3-year-old daughter, the only girl, ever caused him to get distracted from the present truth, he would gladly grab her by the hair and kick her little butt right out the door of his house, never to see her again. He would prefer to see her starve in the streets to having to deal with her at all. This same man told us to take our son up into the mountains and take turns "hitting him with a 2x4 until he knows if he doesn't obey, the next time he will die."
This was early 90's stuff. Kids were considered suspect in those days. We were taught at RomeCity that it is very easy for children to get possessed and they must be vigorously and persistently disciplined to keep their little minds safe from possession...but I digress.
My husband and I were very likeminded on one thing - we got the he11 out of there.
My sister went to tell the Doc about her marriage and he listened, took her side. Then, when we left, I thought great he sees the truth and took her side!
Well, I forget who was there maybe the Gearhead or someother person there to cater to the Veepee and he said, "Don't you know how he works? HE will be on your sister's side and tell her how awful her husband is then, if her husband walks in he will tell him how awful she is and take his side."
Yeah. Dot, western WA was not a good place to be a kid in the early 90's.
The same charming fellow who told us to use the 2x4 gave us some kind of crappy, highly unsolicited counselling about our marriage. First he told husband he was weak and lacking in character. (we had "undershepherded" this guy in Ohio when he was a college student). Then he went into the rant about the kid again. Then, a couple of months later, we were at a meeting and the BC was there and asks me how things are going. "Just wonderful," I burble, thinking this is what he wants to hear. It is. "Now see," he says triumphantly to me, "just learning to communicate helps a marriage so much, don't you agree?"
"Oh, of course!" I reply, smiling like a mule eating sour briers. I have NEVER ONCE figured out what that conversation was all about. Apparently the TC had told the BC something entirely different than the fact that I blew him off and my husband stormed out of their house.
Wxllxce readily picked apart other people's children, yet was blind to what was going on with his own. His daughter definitely had some issues. The day they came to the Cleveland area, I had arranged in advance (before even meeting them) for them to have a key to our house, because I was at a hospital helping a believer through her first chemotherapy treatment. Probably a big mistake, God knows what they did there unsupervised. When I arrived, Jxsephine was sitting in the living room oblivious while her daughter was running all over the neighborhood and had climbed inside (INSIDE) the rabbit cage in the back yard. I swear that kid was so out of control she made my own daughter look like a lazy midsummer afternoon. The kid definitely had some jealousy and control issues, I noted when I babysat for her. But God forbid you should say anything about it....
I posted and while I edited my post vanished. So, I post again. If it reappears I will erase this. Apology.
There was a really nice guy who was NOT corps who asked me to marry him. HE said he would become corps spouse and we could go back in a year....
I had leadership talk me out of that.
I had a corps guy ask me to marry him and I was thinking about it, the next thing I heard was he was getting married -- found out later that it was a VP fix up. Turned out to be a successful one but GEEZ I was thinking maybe we would date for a while and see how things went...
Oh well, some corps were just in a hurry to marry. Actually, we were told it was much harder to find a "corps guy" once you graduated and were on assignment, so that added to the race to wed. Like grab anyone they approve of and get it over with….
Then, there was the "any two believers can make it in a marriage" teaching -- like we were two prize dogs being placed together and breed. So, I think the whole dating- marriage-manipulation stuff may have been prevalent (IMO). It was as if we were their pets being moved around at their whim. Let’s put that nice blonde guy in Ohio near that brunette in Jersey and direct them to get together. A science project for some, and a legitimate act of trying to help two people find a mate by another I guess.
But when people were already TOGETHER who were they to dictate, mandate, or suggest it was wrong??? TO my understanding Craig was directed to his wife…. That went well…
Nothing at all like CatCup or Dot - but at least this has a positive ending while following the thread. I am not posting this to make light of ANY of the pain others have posted here - just wanted to post a happy ending for at least one couple.
Had two good friends - one was interim corps from early '80s who I knew from a few years before that. The other was just taking a job as full time National Guard after graduating college a little late. Both were/are great people. Ended up getting to know each other and as things would have it he proposed during her interm year. She was finishing her final year in residence when I got a call from Harvey Platig telling what has been echoed so many times here - he was not corps material. (Funny he retired as a full bird Colonel and spent a year in Desert Storm....) So Platig is being nice and gooey - you know - this leader to leader .... where there is some supposed inner sanctum of understanding. Problem is I was already on the snitlist for causing trouble at HQ and to make the "problem" worse these two were the perfect pair. So I kind of blew off Harvey.
Fast forward - she graduates and comes to where we all were. In fact they lived with my ex-wife and me because they were still looking for solid employment. Harvey calls me again with some more .... about he wasn't corps material - short discussion ensues before I got impatient and told Harvey it was not his choice.
Married 'em in a nice ceremony with lots of family and friends. They had a great time - he was cool in his dress blues and she could not have looked better.
Fast forward another 20 years - they are married - still - with two great kids - left TWI in '87 when I did and have never looked back. We still stay in touch although somewhat randomly.
So for all of the horrible pain expressed here I hope that this one is a little more... damn can't think of a good word that TWI didn't already compromise - let's just say postive outcome and leave it at that.
Your story is shocking and utterly infuriating to me. I remember similar rhetoric coming from LCM on Corps Nights and maybe publicly, but it never occurred to me that someone would actually do that. I guess I took it as hyperbole, another extremely angry rant, but not real advice. It makes me want to find your old "leadership" and brake them down with a 2X4 in the WA back country. Absolutely insane and unconscionable.
What is with M Wall@#$e and his obsession with "kids medical conditions??"
I was traveling back in my mind and remember him constantly reminding me that my child was going to have developmental problems, and that I should " do " this or that. Even gave me a book on it. I know he was concerned because of what was NOT happening with my kid. But I as mother, wasn't.
Fast forward years................Nothing "developmental" is wrong with my child.
maybe he really wanted to be a "doctor" in life, but instead got lured into a cult. :blink:
Sorry Cat. What access we gave to people because of our ''heart'' for God still baffles me. He will repay!
Me thinks Mr. Wallace needs to look in his own back yard before he tells everyone else their ball is lost.
I posted and while I edited my post vanished. So, I post again. If it reappears I will erase this.
Dottie,
That's happened to me before. I hit the back button and my previous post was there. You might try that next time. I know there is nothing more frustrating than writing up a storm and hitting one button to have everything disappear. I love the back button, and it has saved me.
That's happened to me before. I hit the back button and my previous post was there. You might try that next time. I know there is nothing more frustrating than writing up a storm and hitting one button to have everything disappear. I love the back button, and it has saved me.
I use the back button for the same reason.
Another tip to remember is that your connection may time out,
or the site may time you out if you have stayed on the same page and not
"pinged" it with any directions (like "refresh page").
So, here's what I do when typing a very big post.
I open a second window to the GSC forums,
and every once in a while, I refresh that page.
So the site knows I'm still there and doesn't log me off.
Every 5 minutes is PLENTY- I think 8-10 minutes is enough.
(Works on other boards too, BTW.)
The official recommendation is to type the post into a word-processor program,
then cut-and-paste it into the window.
That way you still have the original if cyberspace eats the post
and it never makes it to the site. THEN you can erase your document
when you see it saved onsite.
This is a good idea, but I'm hoping never to need it,
especially since I'm often posting where that's not really an option.
TWI leadershi! told us to "get rid of" our troubled, adopted son.
We were told to drive him to downtown Seattle, push him out of the car, and drive away, never too look back or even think of him again.
The branch leader at one point,
verbalized regret that he couldn't gather together the "men of the city" and take this 13 year old kid outisde the gates of the suburb of Seattle where we lived, to "stone him with stones that he die".
We were counselled separately by our HFC. I don't know what my husband was told, but I was told that if my husband decided to keep him, I would have to make my own decision whether to go along with that or stand for God, which subtly meant I'd have to leave my marriage to obey God and stand forth boldly and fearlessly upon the exceedingly great and glorious wonders of the present truth.
One leader told me that
if his 3-year-old daughter, the only girl, ever caused him to get distracted from the present truth, he would gladly grab her by the hair and kick her little butt right out the door of his house, never to see her again. He would prefer to see her starve in the streets to having to deal with her at all.
This same man told us to
take our son up into the mountains and take turns "hitting him with a 2x4 until he knows if he doesn't obey, the next time he will die."
This was early 90's stuff. Kids were considered suspect in those days. We were taught at RomeCity that it is very easy for children to get possessed and they must be vigorously and persistently disciplined to keep their little minds safe from possession...but I digress.
My husband and I were very likeminded on one thing - we got the he11 out of there.
WG
I would like to point out the timeframe for this.
"This was early 90's stuff."
That means that the spiritual climate for this-the policies that put this psychopath
in a position to give this advice-
and the polity that made this sound perfectly acceptable at the time to the power-that-be--
this was all the direct result of lcm's 'line in the sand' in 1989,
and the consequence of what he CLAIMED was a desire to serve God and do godly things.
Did he?
Well, take a look at this example (among others),
and I think most people actually exercising their thinking abilities
will say
"obviously, lcm was 'all talk' in this, and knew what to say in 1989,
but never had any intention of carrying it out,
instead going into the tyrant mode that made all this 'work' to him,
and made the people DISPOSABLE."
A few might even add
"lcm learned from vpw HIMSELF to make even the corps DISPOSABLE,
ShortFuse, I would love to point you in their direction so's you could pound on them, but I don't think it would change their sad little minds. Instead I pity and pray for their own children, at least two of whom are now high school graduates. I hope they get out and see that Mom, Dad, and TWI are NOT the greatest things in life. I hope they get to personally know Jesus Christ without interference. They are the real victims. The oldest was 10 the last I saw him, and a self-righteous little prig he was indeed. Actually REPROVED me because I didn't fold my bath towels correctly and because I did not know how to properly place the bottom, fitted sheet on the bed! (in my defense I didn't know there was only one way - his mom's of course). He had learned this attitude from his parents, who no doubt discussed us at length in front of him.
All this stuff broke relationships between parents and children, brothers and sisters, husbands and wives. It was so meaningless in the long run. It is sorry indeed that in the early years of the 1990's it seemed that the more leadershi! hurt people, degraded and demeaned them, shattered relationships, broke up marriages, etc., the greater men and women of God those leaders were deemed to be by their own higher-ups. I spent 3 years in western Washington living in terror, two of them with newly diagnosed diabetes which I was told was the result of some sin I had committed (later someone told me it was because I didn't revere the MOGFODAT sufficiently), told to abandon my son, teased with the prospect of leaving my husband, heart pounding every time the phone rang or D***D M***er looked in my direction, waiting for the next shoe to drop, the next summons to an immediate meeting with the MINIMOG or our TC, V**K R***O, who was always on one of our butts about something meaningless (talk about get the beam out of your own eye!)
It basically messed up my relationship with my son, probably forever. It came close to breaking my trust in my husband, because I knew if I left I would die; I already had a disease. I actually told my son that he had caused us to leave TWI, that I would now die and it was his fault. I still have deep, deep trust issues and a silent, simmering, rebellious anger at what happened out there, and my own acquiescence through fear. I should have told K***y R***o to go to he11 for what she said about and to my son; he was dirt under her feet and he was only 12 when we moved out there. But everyone was convinced Prov. 31:10-31 was written about her and she was always right and perfect. The last I knew they were branch leaders in Bend, Oregon.
In the immortal words of one of my favorite philosophers, B. A. Barakas: "Ah pity the fools!"
I did apologize to my son, but I don't think it helped much.
It was so meaningless in the long run. It is sorry indeed that in the early years of the 1990's it seemed that the more leadershi! hurt people, degraded and demeaned them, shattered relationships, broke up marriages, etc., the greater men and women of God those leaders were deemed to be by their own higher-ups. WG
This is very much the same type of atmosphere we knew.
Bramble, when was this? I think you were "in" a bit longer than we were.
I do think that about 1994-5, there was an undercurrent of fear in the demeanor of the older WC, as if they had to ream us all out and get rid of anyone they could to prove themselves worthy of remaining faithful little Waybots. V**K and K***y had meetings with every couple in the twig; one guy was straitly threatened that he was self-employed and didn't make a lot of money; his kids were grown but his wife was working full time at a job she enjoyed. He was commanded to obtain gainful employment elsewhere or the ax would fall. (V**k) was self-employed also, but his wife did not work and his mom-in-law was generous to a fault, so I guess this was okay).
What was considered "weakness" was totally subjective on the part of the WC assigned to attack the hapless leaf. My husband did not believe in kicking our son in the buttocks, beating him, berating him, or telling him he was weak adn stupid and should be like someone else's child who was perfect. Therefore, my husband was weak and without character.
When the edict about not being permitted to own a home was set forth, it was even worse. We didn't own a home, but those who did were commanded to sell theirs immediately. One lovely couple who were WC got kicked out because their house sold but did not close by the -LCM appointed deadline. Another couple smarter than most said "F you" and kept their house and left. They were castigated becuase it was declared that their house was their god. One guy, however, personal close friend of D*** M*****r, figured out how he could pay off his mortgage in three years. He was permitted to do so and keep his home, at the specific pleasure of the MINIMOG.
Okay. I think I am derailing this thread with my disgust and frustration. Enough already!
This topic has really made me look at things, look within, look without, and exam my own history. I was manipulated by my programming in TWI. Here is the thing – for all those VPW is the greatest, TWI did not use any form of mind control RAHH Rahh people. I do not wish to argue. Maybe not “mind control” as described on the Discovery channel when speaking of some popular methods. But they controlled my “behavior” they green housed me in the corps, fertilizing me and directing me to be a certain way – and they manipulated my social environment. (We have all heard of Pavlov’s dog)
So, you that garden, say you plant seeds and parent tomato plants how many renegade plants did you have? Any non-conformist?
The point is, when I was attracted to someone and they to me, there was definite interference both overtly and covertly. Overtly as a corps coordinator admitted messing things up on purpose and covertly as “Craig” became a standard of a “corps” guy all should want. Like girls it has been said we marry “our fathers”
So, they stripped me from the natural attractions that life presented. Then, by the time “one was alright” by their standards, love had very little to so with anything. Maybe we “liked each other” (any two believers can make it in a marriage.” Because there was no deep abiding love, in many “fix-ups” didn’t it make commitment to the cause (TWI) stronger than the commitment to our spouse? Thus, enabling them to walk into our lives and call the shots?
If I am deeply in love with you, I am not going to let some corps freak rip you apart. If you were acceptable to me because I finally got “approval” from TWI then whom in effect am I serving? Not God, not my husband, but I am a corporate slave to TWI and their interference is accepted if not sought after. We are TRAINED to seek their approval. Like a kid with a father.
Now, this made for many unhealthy marriages. Like Dianna said of Charles and her marriage “It was a bit crowded.”
And if Craig was a “role model” then mental illness, bi-polar, abuse, and many things were actually sought after in a mate. If he was a yelling lunatic then he was some kind of a great prophet man-of-God. Our standards (mine and many others not all followers the plan), no longer about LOVE became environmental to their greenhouse.
Many of us were pawns in a corporate game.
I was married to a VERY nice, very handsome, kind-hearted person and that was not good enough. HE was pastering and sweet. But I was always being yelled at about his weak stand. Hmmmmm, he didn’t yell and scream. I allowed this thinking to seep into my soul and I began to see him differently. Like he wasn’t really a man-of-God (whatever that was) and I allowed that weird-azz standard into my judgments of him, my perception of him. I allowed my now skewed assessment of him to change how I felt. When you are told your husband is a jerk all the time, you can leave or begin to morph. At that time, I morphed. Almost joining in with the bullies to pick on a perfectly decent human being. And eventually, we divorced. My fault. Somewhere in me, I began to look for the “strong” man. But my definition of strength had distorted into some kind of “Craig-like” beast. A screaming, explosive, unyielding bxstxrd -- then I wondered why I was not treated like a princess. Why I waited for explosions and compliments cease to exist. I wondered where the tenderness went. Geez, it was run off by my new format of how I made choices – unhealthy choices. Programmed choices.
Watered Garden, we experienced that type of atmosphere in the mid to late nineties. Prior to that we lived in a remote area and most of our contact with corps was when we traveled to a meeting etc.
I had some complications with a pregnancy and delivery which left us with hefty medical bills.We were counseled to sell our house and move to the 'hot' limb city, and we did so. Stupidest decision we ever made. We ended up paying capital gains on our sale and the cheapest decent rental we found was more expensive than our mortgage payment had been. We had big city crime, traffic and overcrowded schools, too. It did not help us get rid of the med bills!
The Way manipulated me into divorcing my husband. He was what they called an “unbelieving believer.” Nobody much bothered me about him the first 12 or 13 years of my involvement. He didn’t stop me from attending Way functions. Of course, I wasn’t able to go WOW or into the Corps as long as I was married to him. Eventually I took the Advanced Class, and I coordinated Children’s Fellowship for my state, so I was allowed to sit in on the leadership meetings and classes. I was thankful for that, considered it God’s grace.
There were occasional “Joe Believer” types that would ask me why I stayed with my husband, since he didn’t attend any Way stuff and had no intention to Sometimes they would get rude, but I always had the backing of my twig leaders. Anytime anyone mentioned anything negative about my husband in front of the twig leaders, I didn’t have to say a word. The twig leaders made it clear that wasn’t anyone else’s business.
When POP was read we lost our limb leader. Our twig leader ended up being the state contact for what seems like a couple years there, until they went into the Corps.
We received new Corps grads as our limb leaders. The wife made it her business to “befriend” me. She worked hard at it. It took about 2 years, 3 tops to get me to the point where I trusted her opinions more than my own. She got me to believe that my husband was in the way of my growth with God. If not for him, I’d be a WOW vet, at least a couple times over. I could go in the Way Corps if I dumped him.
She drove an hour and 10 minutes to come see me in my home. My mother-in-law, who was welcome in my home any time, any day, showed up unannounced during our “meeting.” The limb leader’s wife was rude to my mom and I allowed it. (I’ve since apologized, but it still bugs me that I was that manipulate-able.)
I was torn. I felt I had made a commitment before God to this man for the rest of my life. I really trusted the limb leader and his wife. I trusted them more than I trusted myself.
She set up a meeting with me and her husband to discuss my situation. I’ll never forget the strangeness. He told me that I had two choices. I could either stay with my husband, never attend another Way function and never bitch about it, or I could dump him and grow with God.
Within 3 weeks I had moved out and the marriage was over.
It took me years to see I had been manipulated into getting that divorce. It wasn’t for me. Today my ex-husband is one of my closest friends. He never held it against me. He never married again, either.
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oldiesman
Nice to hear some kind words about VP. :P
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Catcup
Kind, yes, that night he was kind. But that's not the WHOLE story.
VPW was later manipulated by the Illinois caball. After he called Rxb Kxhoe to Rome City and travelled there for a face to face meeting, I got a letter from VP that was terse and abrasive. It was clear Rxb Kxhoe and his wife had given VP the whole "she needs to be a quieter wife with her husband and be more like Dotsie" routine.
VPW knew these men were spiritually blind, deaf, and dumb enough to screw up people's lives in a major way, yet he left them in situ. For years, in fact. Just like a cancer, to continue to corrupt the truth and spread destruction.
VPW allowed to stay in place in the state of Illinois, men whom he KNEW to be abusive toward God's people. He KNEW this limb leader was a thick-headed idiot who failed to believe a person who told him a truth crucial to a person's survival. VP KNEW the AC had his head up the LC's foot, and that the BC had his up the AC's foot. VP KNEW what all these men in Illinois did to me and said to me was wrong in every sense of the word. And not only did he allow them ALL to stay in place, NOT ONE OF THEM EVER APOLOGIZED. And you know damn well if VPW had told them to apologize, they would have done it in a heartbeat.
The closest any of them ever came to apologizing was Frxnk Scxife, after LCM had his little meltdown on the tarmac of the airport in Chicago following his visit to Gartmore. After coming back from a year on staff, I told him things were fxcked up at HQ and he thought I was talking out of my head. Then, after Geer blew LCM out of the water in Scotland, on his way back home, a suicidal Craig detoured to Chicago to confide in his good buddy, Frxnk. Then Frxnk got to see for real what someone was like who was talking out of his head! Frxnk had not spoken to me directly for several years. Yet when he finally saw for himself what I had been telling him for so long was true, I was the first person he called, and the only person he told.
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bliss
What is with M Wall@#$e and his obsession with "kids medical conditions??"
I was traveling back in my mind and remember him constantly reminding me that my child was going to have developmental problems, and that I should " do " this or that. Even gave me a book on it. I know he was concerned because of what was NOT happening with my kid. But I as mother, wasn't.
Fast forward years................Nothing "developmental" is wrong with my child.
maybe he really wanted to be a "doctor" in life, but instead got lured into a cult. :blink:
Sorry Cat. What access we gave to people because of our ''heart'' for God still baffles me. He will repay!
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Sunesis
Awesome sharings Catcup and Dot. Yet, somehow, I am not surprised.
Oldies, after sharing their hearts on their lives and marriages, that's all you have to say? All you can muster up?
Shallow.
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Watered Garden
TWI leadershi! told us to "get rid of" our troubled, adopted son. We were told to drive him to downtown Seattle, push him out of the car, and drive away, never too look back or even think of him again. The branch leader at one point, verbalized regret that he couldn't gather together the "men of the city" and take this 13 year old kid outisde the gates of the suburb of Seattle where we lived, to "stone him with stones that he die".
We were counselled separately by our HFC. I don't know what my husband was told, but I was told that if my husband decided to keep him, I would have to make my own decision whether to go along with that or stand for God, which subtly meant I'd have to leave my marriage to obey God and stand forth boldly and fearlessly upon the exceedingly great and glorious wonders of the present truth.
One leader told me that if his 3-year-old daughter, the only girl, ever caused him to get distracted from the present truth, he would gladly grab her by the hair and kick her little butt right out the door of his house, never to see her again. He would prefer to see her starve in the streets to having to deal with her at all. This same man told us to take our son up into the mountains and take turns "hitting him with a 2x4 until he knows if he doesn't obey, the next time he will die."
This was early 90's stuff. Kids were considered suspect in those days. We were taught at RomeCity that it is very easy for children to get possessed and they must be vigorously and persistently disciplined to keep their little minds safe from possession...but I digress.
My husband and I were very likeminded on one thing - we got the he11 out of there.
WG
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Dot Matrix
Thanks Sunesis.
Catcup, I know what you mean about the Veepee
My sister went to tell the Doc about her marriage and he listened, took her side. Then, when we left, I thought great he sees the truth and took her side!
Well, I forget who was there maybe the Gearhead or someother person there to cater to the Veepee and he said, "Don't you know how he works? HE will be on your sister's side and tell her how awful her husband is then, if her husband walks in he will tell him how awful she is and take his side."
Whatever....
WG-
OH MY GOD!
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Watered Garden
Yeah. Dot, western WA was not a good place to be a kid in the early 90's.
The same charming fellow who told us to use the 2x4 gave us some kind of crappy, highly unsolicited counselling about our marriage. First he told husband he was weak and lacking in character. (we had "undershepherded" this guy in Ohio when he was a college student). Then he went into the rant about the kid again. Then, a couple of months later, we were at a meeting and the BC was there and asks me how things are going. "Just wonderful," I burble, thinking this is what he wants to hear. It is. "Now see," he says triumphantly to me, "just learning to communicate helps a marriage so much, don't you agree?"
"Oh, of course!" I reply, smiling like a mule eating sour briers. I have NEVER ONCE figured out what that conversation was all about. Apparently the TC had told the BC something entirely different than the fact that I blew him off and my husband stormed out of their house.
Totally weird.
:blink:
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Catcup
Thanks, Sunesis, and good point, Dot.
Bliss--
Wxllxce readily picked apart other people's children, yet was blind to what was going on with his own. His daughter definitely had some issues. The day they came to the Cleveland area, I had arranged in advance (before even meeting them) for them to have a key to our house, because I was at a hospital helping a believer through her first chemotherapy treatment. Probably a big mistake, God knows what they did there unsupervised. When I arrived, Jxsephine was sitting in the living room oblivious while her daughter was running all over the neighborhood and had climbed inside (INSIDE) the rabbit cage in the back yard. I swear that kid was so out of control she made my own daughter look like a lazy midsummer afternoon. The kid definitely had some jealousy and control issues, I noted when I babysat for her. But God forbid you should say anything about it....
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Dot Matrix
I posted and while I edited my post vanished. So, I post again. If it reappears I will erase this. Apology.
There was a really nice guy who was NOT corps who asked me to marry him. HE said he would become corps spouse and we could go back in a year....
I had leadership talk me out of that.
I had a corps guy ask me to marry him and I was thinking about it, the next thing I heard was he was getting married -- found out later that it was a VP fix up. Turned out to be a successful one but GEEZ I was thinking maybe we would date for a while and see how things went...
Oh well, some corps were just in a hurry to marry. Actually, we were told it was much harder to find a "corps guy" once you graduated and were on assignment, so that added to the race to wed. Like grab anyone they approve of and get it over with….
Then, there was the "any two believers can make it in a marriage" teaching -- like we were two prize dogs being placed together and breed. So, I think the whole dating- marriage-manipulation stuff may have been prevalent (IMO). It was as if we were their pets being moved around at their whim. Let’s put that nice blonde guy in Ohio near that brunette in Jersey and direct them to get together. A science project for some, and a legitimate act of trying to help two people find a mate by another I guess.
But when people were already TOGETHER who were they to dictate, mandate, or suggest it was wrong??? TO my understanding Craig was directed to his wife…. That went well…
Tongue in cheek.
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RumRunner
Nothing at all like CatCup or Dot - but at least this has a positive ending while following the thread. I am not posting this to make light of ANY of the pain others have posted here - just wanted to post a happy ending for at least one couple.
Had two good friends - one was interim corps from early '80s who I knew from a few years before that. The other was just taking a job as full time National Guard after graduating college a little late. Both were/are great people. Ended up getting to know each other and as things would have it he proposed during her interm year. She was finishing her final year in residence when I got a call from Harvey Platig telling what has been echoed so many times here - he was not corps material. (Funny he retired as a full bird Colonel and spent a year in Desert Storm....) So Platig is being nice and gooey - you know - this leader to leader .... where there is some supposed inner sanctum of understanding. Problem is I was already on the snitlist for causing trouble at HQ and to make the "problem" worse these two were the perfect pair. So I kind of blew off Harvey.
Fast forward - she graduates and comes to where we all were. In fact they lived with my ex-wife and me because they were still looking for solid employment. Harvey calls me again with some more .... about he wasn't corps material - short discussion ensues before I got impatient and told Harvey it was not his choice.
Married 'em in a nice ceremony with lots of family and friends. They had a great time - he was cool in his dress blues and she could not have looked better.
Fast forward another 20 years - they are married - still - with two great kids - left TWI in '87 when I did and have never looked back. We still stay in touch although somewhat randomly.
So for all of the horrible pain expressed here I hope that this one is a little more... damn can't think of a good word that TWI didn't already compromise - let's just say postive outcome and leave it at that.
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Dot Matrix
RR
Good to hear you had some GUTS! And common sense.
Glad to hear you married them anyway! Good story, and it still shows their attempts to manipulate who got together with whom.
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shortfuse
WG,
Your story is shocking and utterly infuriating to me. I remember similar rhetoric coming from LCM on Corps Nights and maybe publicly, but it never occurred to me that someone would actually do that. I guess I took it as hyperbole, another extremely angry rant, but not real advice. It makes me want to find your old "leadership" and brake them down with a 2X4 in the WA back country. Absolutely insane and unconscionable.
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Nottawayfer
Me thinks Mr. Wallace needs to look in his own back yard before he tells everyone else their ball is lost.
Dottie,
That's happened to me before. I hit the back button and my previous post was there. You might try that next time. I know there is nothing more frustrating than writing up a storm and hitting one button to have everything disappear. I love the back button, and it has saved me.
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WordWolf
I use the back button for the same reason.
Another tip to remember is that your connection may time out,
or the site may time you out if you have stayed on the same page and not
"pinged" it with any directions (like "refresh page").
So, here's what I do when typing a very big post.
I open a second window to the GSC forums,
and every once in a while, I refresh that page.
So the site knows I'm still there and doesn't log me off.
Every 5 minutes is PLENTY- I think 8-10 minutes is enough.
(Works on other boards too, BTW.)
The official recommendation is to type the post into a word-processor program,
then cut-and-paste it into the window.
That way you still have the original if cyberspace eats the post
and it never makes it to the site. THEN you can erase your document
when you see it saved onsite.
This is a good idea, but I'm hoping never to need it,
especially since I'm often posting where that's not really an option.
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WordWolf
I would like to point out the timeframe for this.
"This was early 90's stuff."
That means that the spiritual climate for this-the policies that put this psychopath
in a position to give this advice-
and the polity that made this sound perfectly acceptable at the time to the power-that-be--
this was all the direct result of lcm's 'line in the sand' in 1989,
and the consequence of what he CLAIMED was a desire to serve God and do godly things.
Did he?
Well, take a look at this example (among others),
and I think most people actually exercising their thinking abilities
will say
"obviously, lcm was 'all talk' in this, and knew what to say in 1989,
but never had any intention of carrying it out,
instead going into the tyrant mode that made all this 'work' to him,
and made the people DISPOSABLE."
A few might even add
"lcm learned from vpw HIMSELF to make even the corps DISPOSABLE,
as we ourselves saw."
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Watered Garden
ShortFuse, I would love to point you in their direction so's you could pound on them, but I don't think it would change their sad little minds. Instead I pity and pray for their own children, at least two of whom are now high school graduates. I hope they get out and see that Mom, Dad, and TWI are NOT the greatest things in life. I hope they get to personally know Jesus Christ without interference. They are the real victims. The oldest was 10 the last I saw him, and a self-righteous little prig he was indeed. Actually REPROVED me because I didn't fold my bath towels correctly and because I did not know how to properly place the bottom, fitted sheet on the bed! (in my defense I didn't know there was only one way - his mom's of course). He had learned this attitude from his parents, who no doubt discussed us at length in front of him.
All this stuff broke relationships between parents and children, brothers and sisters, husbands and wives. It was so meaningless in the long run. It is sorry indeed that in the early years of the 1990's it seemed that the more leadershi! hurt people, degraded and demeaned them, shattered relationships, broke up marriages, etc., the greater men and women of God those leaders were deemed to be by their own higher-ups. I spent 3 years in western Washington living in terror, two of them with newly diagnosed diabetes which I was told was the result of some sin I had committed (later someone told me it was because I didn't revere the MOGFODAT sufficiently), told to abandon my son, teased with the prospect of leaving my husband, heart pounding every time the phone rang or D***D M***er looked in my direction, waiting for the next shoe to drop, the next summons to an immediate meeting with the MINIMOG or our TC, V**K R***O, who was always on one of our butts about something meaningless (talk about get the beam out of your own eye!)
It basically messed up my relationship with my son, probably forever. It came close to breaking my trust in my husband, because I knew if I left I would die; I already had a disease. I actually told my son that he had caused us to leave TWI, that I would now die and it was his fault. I still have deep, deep trust issues and a silent, simmering, rebellious anger at what happened out there, and my own acquiescence through fear. I should have told K***y R***o to go to he11 for what she said about and to my son; he was dirt under her feet and he was only 12 when we moved out there. But everyone was convinced Prov. 31:10-31 was written about her and she was always right and perfect. The last I knew they were branch leaders in Bend, Oregon.
In the immortal words of one of my favorite philosophers, B. A. Barakas: "Ah pity the fools!"
I did apologize to my son, but I don't think it helped much.
WG
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Bramble
This is very much the same type of atmosphere we knew.
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Watered Garden
Bramble, when was this? I think you were "in" a bit longer than we were.
I do think that about 1994-5, there was an undercurrent of fear in the demeanor of the older WC, as if they had to ream us all out and get rid of anyone they could to prove themselves worthy of remaining faithful little Waybots. V**K and K***y had meetings with every couple in the twig; one guy was straitly threatened that he was self-employed and didn't make a lot of money; his kids were grown but his wife was working full time at a job she enjoyed. He was commanded to obtain gainful employment elsewhere or the ax would fall. (V**k) was self-employed also, but his wife did not work and his mom-in-law was generous to a fault, so I guess this was okay).
What was considered "weakness" was totally subjective on the part of the WC assigned to attack the hapless leaf. My husband did not believe in kicking our son in the buttocks, beating him, berating him, or telling him he was weak adn stupid and should be like someone else's child who was perfect. Therefore, my husband was weak and without character.
When the edict about not being permitted to own a home was set forth, it was even worse. We didn't own a home, but those who did were commanded to sell theirs immediately. One lovely couple who were WC got kicked out because their house sold but did not close by the -LCM appointed deadline. Another couple smarter than most said "F you" and kept their house and left. They were castigated becuase it was declared that their house was their god. One guy, however, personal close friend of D*** M*****r, figured out how he could pay off his mortgage in three years. He was permitted to do so and keep his home, at the specific pleasure of the MINIMOG.
Okay. I think I am derailing this thread with my disgust and frustration. Enough already!
WG
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Dot Matrix
This topic has really made me look at things, look within, look without, and exam my own history. I was manipulated by my programming in TWI. Here is the thing – for all those VPW is the greatest, TWI did not use any form of mind control RAHH Rahh people. I do not wish to argue. Maybe not “mind control” as described on the Discovery channel when speaking of some popular methods. But they controlled my “behavior” they green housed me in the corps, fertilizing me and directing me to be a certain way – and they manipulated my social environment. (We have all heard of Pavlov’s dog)
So, you that garden, say you plant seeds and parent tomato plants how many renegade plants did you have? Any non-conformist?
The point is, when I was attracted to someone and they to me, there was definite interference both overtly and covertly. Overtly as a corps coordinator admitted messing things up on purpose and covertly as “Craig” became a standard of a “corps” guy all should want. Like girls it has been said we marry “our fathers”
So, they stripped me from the natural attractions that life presented. Then, by the time “one was alright” by their standards, love had very little to so with anything. Maybe we “liked each other” (any two believers can make it in a marriage.” Because there was no deep abiding love, in many “fix-ups” didn’t it make commitment to the cause (TWI) stronger than the commitment to our spouse? Thus, enabling them to walk into our lives and call the shots?
If I am deeply in love with you, I am not going to let some corps freak rip you apart. If you were acceptable to me because I finally got “approval” from TWI then whom in effect am I serving? Not God, not my husband, but I am a corporate slave to TWI and their interference is accepted if not sought after. We are TRAINED to seek their approval. Like a kid with a father.
Now, this made for many unhealthy marriages. Like Dianna said of Charles and her marriage “It was a bit crowded.”
And if Craig was a “role model” then mental illness, bi-polar, abuse, and many things were actually sought after in a mate. If he was a yelling lunatic then he was some kind of a great prophet man-of-God. Our standards (mine and many others not all followers the plan), no longer about LOVE became environmental to their greenhouse.
Many of us were pawns in a corporate game.
I was married to a VERY nice, very handsome, kind-hearted person and that was not good enough. HE was pastering and sweet. But I was always being yelled at about his weak stand. Hmmmmm, he didn’t yell and scream. I allowed this thinking to seep into my soul and I began to see him differently. Like he wasn’t really a man-of-God (whatever that was) and I allowed that weird-azz standard into my judgments of him, my perception of him. I allowed my now skewed assessment of him to change how I felt. When you are told your husband is a jerk all the time, you can leave or begin to morph. At that time, I morphed. Almost joining in with the bullies to pick on a perfectly decent human being. And eventually, we divorced. My fault. Somewhere in me, I began to look for the “strong” man. But my definition of strength had distorted into some kind of “Craig-like” beast. A screaming, explosive, unyielding bxstxrd -- then I wondered why I was not treated like a princess. Why I waited for explosions and compliments cease to exist. I wondered where the tenderness went. Geez, it was run off by my new format of how I made choices – unhealthy choices. Programmed choices.
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Bramble
Watered Garden, we experienced that type of atmosphere in the mid to late nineties. Prior to that we lived in a remote area and most of our contact with corps was when we traveled to a meeting etc.
I had some complications with a pregnancy and delivery which left us with hefty medical bills.We were counseled to sell our house and move to the 'hot' limb city, and we did so. Stupidest decision we ever made. We ended up paying capital gains on our sale and the cheapest decent rental we found was more expensive than our mortgage payment had been. We had big city crime, traffic and overcrowded schools, too. It did not help us get rid of the med bills!
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Pirate1974
I could write a freaking book on this subject, but it still makes me mad as hell after almost 30 years.
It cost me somebody who was not only the love of my life, but also the best friend I've ever had.
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bowtwi
The Way manipulated me into divorcing my husband. He was what they called an “unbelieving believer.” Nobody much bothered me about him the first 12 or 13 years of my involvement. He didn’t stop me from attending Way functions. Of course, I wasn’t able to go WOW or into the Corps as long as I was married to him. Eventually I took the Advanced Class, and I coordinated Children’s Fellowship for my state, so I was allowed to sit in on the leadership meetings and classes. I was thankful for that, considered it God’s grace.
There were occasional “Joe Believer” types that would ask me why I stayed with my husband, since he didn’t attend any Way stuff and had no intention to Sometimes they would get rude, but I always had the backing of my twig leaders. Anytime anyone mentioned anything negative about my husband in front of the twig leaders, I didn’t have to say a word. The twig leaders made it clear that wasn’t anyone else’s business.
When POP was read we lost our limb leader. Our twig leader ended up being the state contact for what seems like a couple years there, until they went into the Corps.
We received new Corps grads as our limb leaders. The wife made it her business to “befriend” me. She worked hard at it. It took about 2 years, 3 tops to get me to the point where I trusted her opinions more than my own. She got me to believe that my husband was in the way of my growth with God. If not for him, I’d be a WOW vet, at least a couple times over. I could go in the Way Corps if I dumped him.
She drove an hour and 10 minutes to come see me in my home. My mother-in-law, who was welcome in my home any time, any day, showed up unannounced during our “meeting.” The limb leader’s wife was rude to my mom and I allowed it. (I’ve since apologized, but it still bugs me that I was that manipulate-able.)
I was torn. I felt I had made a commitment before God to this man for the rest of my life. I really trusted the limb leader and his wife. I trusted them more than I trusted myself.
She set up a meeting with me and her husband to discuss my situation. I’ll never forget the strangeness. He told me that I had two choices. I could either stay with my husband, never attend another Way function and never bitch about it, or I could dump him and grow with God.
Within 3 weeks I had moved out and the marriage was over.
It took me years to see I had been manipulated into getting that divorce. It wasn’t for me. Today my ex-husband is one of my closest friends. He never held it against me. He never married again, either.
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Twinky
Bowtwi
So sorry to hear your sad tale.
Your former husband sounds a nice guy and definitely more loyal and loving than TWI. Strong on forgiveness, too - unlike some ...
Have you thought about re-marrying him? :)
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bliss
DITTO
:)
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