"…This, again goes back to the notion that woman was not initially created to be submissive to man…"
What you said caught my eye. I found this in Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, Walter Elwell, Editor; Woman, Biblical Concept of. Page 1176 [Abigail, I put the part of this text in bold redthat compliments your statement], "…In the punishment meted out to Eve is the statement, "Your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you" [Gen.3:16]. This was a divine description of what would occur, not a mandate which obedient servants of God should attempt to carry out. Subordination is not enjoined here any more than it is mandated that women should suffer a maximum of pain in childbearing, or men a maximum of discomfort and toil in earning their living. God has graciously provided means whereby even the curse of evil may be alleviated, and those who wish to carry out his will can and should as much as possible counteract the painful effects of evil. It is to be noted also that the promise of the redeemer through a descendant of Eve precedes the statement of the curse incurred by women at the fall [Gen. 3:15]."
Anyone who has or is married surely can see that the woman is not submissive to the man.
???
Surely?
My DW [bonnie] is submissive to me. I am the head of our household, and she submits to my desires and decisions on various matters. We have been married for 25 years this December.
I've always thought it an agreement to be submissive to the male as the head of the house. And I have believed in it to the end of personal harm to myself. I still feel the male's words are important and I'd not consider making important decisions that affect us without covering it with him, so I retain some of that submission by agreement.
But the way of lording over that was encouraged in twi is crapola. No matter what we all think the bible states on it I now believe without a shadow of a doubt I am not to walk a pace behind any human being.
And I suspect your Bonnie has agreed in her own heart and mind to allow you the privilege of that role you hold in your marriage. I also suspect she's an incredible lady to have the personal balance to be at peace doing so. I'd not criticize her for a second. In fact for some time in my 35 year marriage I was at great rest inwardly allowing him to row the boat we were in.
T-Bone,
I love your last post!
Abi,
I had wondered the tie to new age Kabbalah stuff and your faith. And twi did a huge thing on this topic a few years back. I have magazines with articles on it btw.
Pawnbroker,
It was nice seeing you again. I hope you have been well. Seems a lifetime ago when you finished a clue of mine about Evita in Nostalgia.
Abi,
That was on godess worship, I should have been more clear.
I am very aware of the New Age/Kabbalah/Goddess stuff that is out there and I did study it for a time. I first came across the term Kabbalah a number of years ago in a fictional book I read about Rachel called "The Red Tent" (a very good read, btw). It peaked my interest and thus began my journey. However, I found the new age version as unsatisfactory as I did TWI's version of Christianity, in that it seemed to be lacking in a number of ways, most especially in balance. I was left, once again, feeling frustrated and walked away from it. In addition, it seemed that many of the books I was reading made it clear that in order to get to true Kabbalah teachings one must be male, over 30, and very well versed in Torah, Talmud, and Midsrash. That really angered me, in that I do not like being denied an opportunity at knowledge - most especially simply because I am female.
When I came back to it, I decided to limit my studies to those that seemed (to the best of my ability to discern) more "authenticly" Jewish and I limited my focus to the traditions and laws. Again, I was left feeling less than satisfied with what I was learning. In the process I found a website called Judaism101.com. That particluar site focuses on the more mainstream aspect of Judaism, in that it deals largely with Torah, Talmud and Midrash and is geared most specifically toward Orthodox and Conservative Jews. However, because the designers seem to wish to cover all aspects of Judaism, it also touches on Reform, Reconstructionist, and Chassidic beliefs also. There I found a link to Chabad.org, which is Chassidic (and Chabad likewise has a link to Judaism101).
The Chassidics place far more focus on Kabbalah. In addition, the Chassidics are the only group of Jews who "proselytise" (sp). Whereas your more conservative Jews do not try to convert people, and some in fact don't view converts as being really Jewish, Chassidics view being Jewish not strictly as a genetic thing, but as a matter of the soul - if it is in your heart, if you believe it, then you are. In addition, the Chassidics place a larger focus on the mystical side of Judaism, and thus Kabbalah.
There are those in any religion who can follow the doctrine, laws, rituals, and be satisfied with the idea that "God said it, so I will do it", and perform those things cheerfully. I am not one of those people - it is simply not my nature. I want to know WHY God said to do something. I want to know WHY things are the way they are. It must be genetic, because my kids are the same way - lol. So far, the Chassidic teachings on mysticism and Kabbalah provide the most satisfactory answers I have found. And, there I find something closer to the balance I have been looking for as well. I cannot imagine that I will ever be disciplined enough to follow in the the strict fashion that they do. I can just picture the reaction I would get at home and at work if I took to wearing a veil - lol. However, I enjoy their teachings, basic philosophies, and ethics. There are areas where I disagree as well, but I suspect I may never find a religion that is completely satisfactory to me anyway, so I keep what I can and toss the rest.
So anyway, I am not going the way of Goddess Worship, but neither am I going the way of a male God either. I believe God has no gender and both genders - aspects.
"I still feel the male's words are important and I'd not consider making important decisions that affect us without covering it with him, so I retain some of that submission by agreement. "
Of course the male's words are important! I was never trying to imply that they were not. But in TWI, the male dominated - his word was final. I prefer to view a marriage relationship as a partnership where the input of both partners is equally important. Then, when the views are drastically different, a compromise should be sought - and odds are really good in the compromise a proper balance will be found.
T - thanks for sharing that excerpt! Yet another reminder that though the terminology may be different, there are many many areas of agreement among various religions.
Clay - I think there are many layers to what is written, literal and spiritual. But, to some extent, I put my focus where I did in this thread because of what we were taught in TWI about women being submissive. I feel very strongly that the way TWI taught and practiced the submissive stuff was damaging to the couple, as well as to the individual partners.
In terms of the spiritual significance behind those statements, I am sure there are many more than what I have touched on. I agree that the female aspect often represents the spirit - and Israel is also refered to as the Bride. I would be interested in your take on other meanings for the word Husband.
Galen - having read many of your posts, I strongly suspect that the agreement you have with Bonnie is far different than what I was expected to practice while in TWI. Likewise, I suspect you offer her a great deal of respect and give genuine consideration to her input. IF the man "loves his wife as Christ loved the church" THEN a woman offering submission is not necessarily a bad thing. An analogy . . . . if one likens Moses to "the church" and therefore the wife(as the church is the bride, yes?), and one likens Christ with God and therefore the husband (as Jesus is referred to, yes?) and then reads the O.T., which is "for our learning" - one will realize that even the great man Moses (the wife) argued with God (the husband) and at times even won the arguments or at least convinced the husband to compromise. :)
I think Lilith in the Lilith Fair was more of a symbol used by feminists. There is a feminist goddess movement/religion that is pretty political.
Most pagans I know are of the Wiccan background who believe in balance, female/male dieties, light/dark, and some consider the goddess witches/movement to be some type of monotheist religion, replacing the monotheistic male god with a female, with a lack of balance either way.
Lilith is seen as a dark goddess, like Kali or Hecate.She is seen as a demon in Sumerian myth also. I don't think the Lilith Fair namer was thinking of that aspect and was instead using her as a symbol of feminine power.
Some pagans think it foolhardy to mess with a dark goddess.
But then, if Sarah had used Brigit or Diana or Freya, also good 'symbols' of feminine power, she might have p.o.ed a large number of her fans...
I think that the Kaballah connection to the New Age movement came through older occult sources, like ceremonial magic, and writings, like the Key of Solomen. Traditional tarot cards have occult Kabballah symbology.
And isn't the word lullaby a derivation of a Jewish banishing prayer, to banish Lilith from male infants? I think I read that somewhere.
The New Age Kabbalah connection is probably why much of what you've been posting, Abigail, sounds quite familiiar to me.
I see a direct 'military' mindset, though for some reason in our culture that is seen as bad.
Any officer in-charge of others, must respect those 'underneath' him. If he does not, it is at his own peril. Very intelligent men, with high levels of training and years of experience work for him. Each technician is a highly valued part of the team. An officer can in no way, understand everything there is to know about a system. So before making any decision he must ask for recommendations from the system experts. If I say to him that my system can do 'X', but it will fail when doing 'Y'. then he has the information. and he can do as he desires. If he ignores my recommendation, it will back-fire and I will see revenge done [simply because he will fail and we will have to shutdown everything to make repairs due to his arrogance].
Bonnie is good at what she does. I can in no way do what all she does. So I do feel that I need her, to better prosper my household. I respect her and value her opinion. As well as I value her efforts. To ignore her opinion is stupid. She also requires direction and enough materials or supplies so that she can do whatever she is doing each day. Bonnie has a different viewpoint on things than I do. She has a different background of training and expertise. So whenever I am 'stuck' she can commonly look at what I am doing and she will often 'see' another method that would work out better.
I learned from my military career, to always ask for things to be done, in a manner that gives the other person the option of saying 'no' or suggesting a better method. As our children grew up, we did this more and more with them. To show them respect.
For example: "Would you please pass the salt?", could just as easily be followed by "I could, but wouldn't you rather have the potatoes first?"
Lately we have been working on our new house, I have been blowing insulation onto the interior walls. And Bonnie has been helping me a great deal. Helping me move scaffolding around and passing things to me, and I commonly ask for her opinion on all that I do. And she in turn asks for my opinions when researching things, or new projects for herself. and she will ask for me to decide from among various options.
Bramble, quite some time ago I did a small amount of study into the pagan/wiccan beliefs. I have no issue against them, they simply didn't suit me. But I guess, I didn't see the pagan/wiccan thing as being quite the same as the new age stuff, in that the roots of the wiccan practice go back a long ways.
I see the new age trend as the new "in" thing, that will eventually pass out of vogue.
"But then, if Sarah had used Brigit or Diana or Freya, also good 'symbols' of feminine power, she might have p.o.ed a large number of her fans..."
I have come across materials that indicate Rachel, if not Sarah, did worship a goddess - but how accurate that information is, I do not know. Kabbalah sees God has one, but uses various terms to describe characteristics of God for our understanding, and ascribes to them a gender. So perhaps, in some fashion or form, as humans, we tend to want to worship or focus on those characteristics that align with our own gender traits.
"I think that the Kaballah connection to the New Age movement came through older occult sources, like ceremonial magic, and writings, like the Key of Solomen. Traditional tarot cards have occult Kabballah symbology."
I have read of this connection as well, particularly in the mediterranian region. I suspect it was a melding of religious beliefs that took place, but that is only a semi-educated guess. To the best of my knowledge the Chassidics do not use Tarot cards and the such. In my youth I did experiement with such things, but I really don't put any stock in them these days.
"And isn't the word lullaby a derivation of a Jewish banishing prayer, to banish Lilith from male infants? I think I read that somewhere."
this I don't know, but it wouldn't necessarily suprise me. Every culture has its folk lore.
"The New Age Kabbalah connection is probably why much of what you've been posting, Abigail, sounds quite familiiar to me."
I always find it interesting, and think it is really cool, when different religions merge into shared beliefs. I wish human nature was such that we could focus more on what we have in common and less on our differences.
1Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
11Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
13Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
14Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
Has to do with following Christ. Long hair is talking about a following. Along with the Nazarite vow. Which includes cutting the hair. Get a following or follower and cut them off and give them the spiritual freedom that God wants them to have. It is a shame for one to have a great following. But for the woman-the spirit, it is a glory to her.
22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
And this sounds very mutual. The head is nothing without the rest.
And not to put you and your marriage down in any way at all.
And not to even disagree. But to shift into a further understanding.
Abi, real quick in case you're around. I never thought you were saying anything about godess worship in the stuff you were sharing. I was referring to Lilth and how twi got into her and all that stuff. Now I'll read again and have the mind to take in. :)
So anyway, I am not going the way of Goddess Worship, but neither am I going the way of a male God either. I believe God has no gender and both genders - aspects.
I mentioned this one so you knew I hadn't thought that now. :)
"I still feel the male's words are important and I'd not consider making important decisions that affect us without covering it with him, so I retain some of that submission by agreement. "
Of course the male's words are important! I was never trying to imply that they were not. But in TWI, the male dominated - his word was final. I prefer to view a marriage relationship as a partnership where the input of both partners is equally important. Then, when the views are drastically different, a compromise should be sought - and odds are really good in the compromise a proper balance will be found.
I wasn't even thinking of you other folks when I was saying that. Sorry that you thought I meant you. :( And I think your view is cool. Very cool.
Abi,
I think your journey is very interesting. And neat for you that you have that thirst. Isn't it interesting some of the differences and how one can be more comfortable. That's such a personal thing isn't it. Yeah, a real heart thing for certain.
It was going to the library and reading Woman who Run with Wolves( mentioned in the Her story Way Mag article) that sent me on a reading journey. After that I moved on to other feminist lit, then myths, goddess lit etc...
Kathy, part of the reason I went into the explanation I did is because, in the past, I had a couple of posters who wrote me with concerns about the ability to discern between the Kabbalah of Judaism and the Kabbalah of the new age movement.
It took a while for your Lilith remark to make its way through the cobwebs of my memory - I think you are referring in part, to LCM's teaching on "original sin", yes? Funny, with all the information on the www about Lilith, you would think he could have come up with better supporting documentation for his theory than a couple of old oil paintings. lol
Bramble, I think you and I have talked before about "The Mists of Avalon". If I am wrong and you haven't read it, I highly recommend it. It was that book that peaked my interest in Wiccan beliefs and Goddesses. It is still my all time favorite book and I still have an interest in those subjects. Again, I think many of the core beliefs are similar, it is the terminology and rituals that differ. I think part of the reason Jusaism appealed to me is because it is my heritage - and it is a heritage that I literally knew almost nothing about until these past couple of years of research. As one who has often felt like an outsider in this world, Judaism has allowed me to feel a sense of connectedness at least on some level, to a culture, a history, and a people.
Hmmmm, I wonder if that sense of disconnectedness is in part due to our melting pot society and the fact that so may of us 3rd generation and beyond people have so little culture that we can call our own?
Yes, we did discuss The Mists of Avalon a long time ago. I too loved those books.
Quote, Abigail : 'Hmmmm, I wonder if that sense of disconnectedness is in part due to our melting pot society and the fact that so may of us 3rd generation and beyond people have so little culture that we can call our own?'
In my experience in the pagan/Wiccan world, heritage and nationality does seem to be a big factor. If people are of Irish descent, they look at Celtic myths etc. I'm such a mutt, I could look at nearly any European country, and some SW Native American tribes, too...
BTW--Looked through the phone book. It is much harder to find Jewish resources in my area of the world than Christian or pagan. In my area there's two Christian book stores, one Catholic bookstore, the Wal Mart carries LDS books, there are two New Age stores (crystals, statues, jewelry etc) and one pagan store (herbs and books.) Nothing Jewish. The local congregational church is where a small synagog meets, and also where the UU church meets. I wonder if they ever have activities with all three congregations togehter. That might be interesting.
Bramble, it could be very interesting. We only have two temples here as well, a reconstructionist and reform. Both temples also offer services to accomodate the conservative and orthodox community too. They also participate in interfaith diologue with Christians and Muslims, I have not read of any with pagans, but I am not sure how much of a pagan community exists in these parts.
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T-Bone
What you said caught my eye. I found this in Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, Walter Elwell, Editor; Woman, Biblical Concept of. Page 1176 [Abigail, I put the part of this text in bold red that compliments your statement], "…In the punishment meted out to Eve is the statement, "Your desire will be for your husband and he will rule over you" [Gen.3:16]. This was a divine description of what would occur, not a mandate which obedient servants of God should attempt to carry out. Subordination is not enjoined here any more than it is mandated that women should suffer a maximum of pain in childbearing, or men a maximum of discomfort and toil in earning their living. God has graciously provided means whereby even the curse of evil may be alleviated, and those who wish to carry out his will can and should as much as possible counteract the painful effects of evil. It is to be noted also that the promise of the redeemer through a descendant of Eve precedes the statement of the curse incurred by women at the fall [Gen. 3:15]."
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dancing
Anyone who has or is married surely can see that the woman is not submissive to the man.
It's obviously speaking of something very different them relationships between mortal men and women.
There has to be and is other ways of seeing this very spiritually rather then by carnal eyes.
What does it mean for the woman-
Please note that this is not called a curse.
And quite possibly a good thing.
Throughout the scriptures the woman represents the Spirit.
And who would the husband be? Adam? Or the last Adam?
Or both.
The word husband is used in various ways.
It even refers to Christ.
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Galen
???
Surely?
My DW [bonnie] is submissive to me. I am the head of our household, and she submits to my desires and decisions on various matters. We have been married for 25 years this December.
I know of many other marriages that are likewise.
:)
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ChattyKathy
Galen,
I've always thought it an agreement to be submissive to the male as the head of the house. And I have believed in it to the end of personal harm to myself. I still feel the male's words are important and I'd not consider making important decisions that affect us without covering it with him, so I retain some of that submission by agreement.
But the way of lording over that was encouraged in twi is crapola. No matter what we all think the bible states on it I now believe without a shadow of a doubt I am not to walk a pace behind any human being.
And I suspect your Bonnie has agreed in her own heart and mind to allow you the privilege of that role you hold in your marriage. I also suspect she's an incredible lady to have the personal balance to be at peace doing so. I'd not criticize her for a second. In fact for some time in my 35 year marriage I was at great rest inwardly allowing him to row the boat we were in.
T-Bone,
I love your last post!
Abi,
I had wondered the tie to new age Kabbalah stuff and your faith. And twi did a huge thing on this topic a few years back. I have magazines with articles on it btw.
Pawnbroker,
It was nice seeing you again. I hope you have been well. Seems a lifetime ago when you finished a clue of mine about Evita in Nostalgia.
Abi,
That was on godess worship, I should have been more clear.
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Abigail
Kathy,
I am very aware of the New Age/Kabbalah/Goddess stuff that is out there and I did study it for a time. I first came across the term Kabbalah a number of years ago in a fictional book I read about Rachel called "The Red Tent" (a very good read, btw). It peaked my interest and thus began my journey. However, I found the new age version as unsatisfactory as I did TWI's version of Christianity, in that it seemed to be lacking in a number of ways, most especially in balance. I was left, once again, feeling frustrated and walked away from it. In addition, it seemed that many of the books I was reading made it clear that in order to get to true Kabbalah teachings one must be male, over 30, and very well versed in Torah, Talmud, and Midsrash. That really angered me, in that I do not like being denied an opportunity at knowledge - most especially simply because I am female.
When I came back to it, I decided to limit my studies to those that seemed (to the best of my ability to discern) more "authenticly" Jewish and I limited my focus to the traditions and laws. Again, I was left feeling less than satisfied with what I was learning. In the process I found a website called Judaism101.com. That particluar site focuses on the more mainstream aspect of Judaism, in that it deals largely with Torah, Talmud and Midrash and is geared most specifically toward Orthodox and Conservative Jews. However, because the designers seem to wish to cover all aspects of Judaism, it also touches on Reform, Reconstructionist, and Chassidic beliefs also. There I found a link to Chabad.org, which is Chassidic (and Chabad likewise has a link to Judaism101).
The Chassidics place far more focus on Kabbalah. In addition, the Chassidics are the only group of Jews who "proselytise" (sp). Whereas your more conservative Jews do not try to convert people, and some in fact don't view converts as being really Jewish, Chassidics view being Jewish not strictly as a genetic thing, but as a matter of the soul - if it is in your heart, if you believe it, then you are. In addition, the Chassidics place a larger focus on the mystical side of Judaism, and thus Kabbalah.
There are those in any religion who can follow the doctrine, laws, rituals, and be satisfied with the idea that "God said it, so I will do it", and perform those things cheerfully. I am not one of those people - it is simply not my nature. I want to know WHY God said to do something. I want to know WHY things are the way they are. It must be genetic, because my kids are the same way - lol. So far, the Chassidic teachings on mysticism and Kabbalah provide the most satisfactory answers I have found. And, there I find something closer to the balance I have been looking for as well. I cannot imagine that I will ever be disciplined enough to follow in the the strict fashion that they do. I can just picture the reaction I would get at home and at work if I took to wearing a veil - lol. However, I enjoy their teachings, basic philosophies, and ethics. There are areas where I disagree as well, but I suspect I may never find a religion that is completely satisfactory to me anyway, so I keep what I can and toss the rest.
So anyway, I am not going the way of Goddess Worship, but neither am I going the way of a male God either. I believe God has no gender and both genders - aspects.
"I still feel the male's words are important and I'd not consider making important decisions that affect us without covering it with him, so I retain some of that submission by agreement. "
Of course the male's words are important! I was never trying to imply that they were not. But in TWI, the male dominated - his word was final. I prefer to view a marriage relationship as a partnership where the input of both partners is equally important. Then, when the views are drastically different, a compromise should be sought - and odds are really good in the compromise a proper balance will be found.
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Abigail
T - thanks for sharing that excerpt! Yet another reminder that though the terminology may be different, there are many many areas of agreement among various religions.
Clay - I think there are many layers to what is written, literal and spiritual. But, to some extent, I put my focus where I did in this thread because of what we were taught in TWI about women being submissive. I feel very strongly that the way TWI taught and practiced the submissive stuff was damaging to the couple, as well as to the individual partners.
In terms of the spiritual significance behind those statements, I am sure there are many more than what I have touched on. I agree that the female aspect often represents the spirit - and Israel is also refered to as the Bride. I would be interested in your take on other meanings for the word Husband.
Galen - having read many of your posts, I strongly suspect that the agreement you have with Bonnie is far different than what I was expected to practice while in TWI. Likewise, I suspect you offer her a great deal of respect and give genuine consideration to her input. IF the man "loves his wife as Christ loved the church" THEN a woman offering submission is not necessarily a bad thing. An analogy . . . . if one likens Moses to "the church" and therefore the wife(as the church is the bride, yes?), and one likens Christ with God and therefore the husband (as Jesus is referred to, yes?) and then reads the O.T., which is "for our learning" - one will realize that even the great man Moses (the wife) argued with God (the husband) and at times even won the arguments or at least convinced the husband to compromise. :)
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Bramble
I think Lilith in the Lilith Fair was more of a symbol used by feminists. There is a feminist goddess movement/religion that is pretty political.
Most pagans I know are of the Wiccan background who believe in balance, female/male dieties, light/dark, and some consider the goddess witches/movement to be some type of monotheist religion, replacing the monotheistic male god with a female, with a lack of balance either way.
Lilith is seen as a dark goddess, like Kali or Hecate.She is seen as a demon in Sumerian myth also. I don't think the Lilith Fair namer was thinking of that aspect and was instead using her as a symbol of feminine power.
Some pagans think it foolhardy to mess with a dark goddess.
But then, if Sarah had used Brigit or Diana or Freya, also good 'symbols' of feminine power, she might have p.o.ed a large number of her fans...
I think that the Kaballah connection to the New Age movement came through older occult sources, like ceremonial magic, and writings, like the Key of Solomen. Traditional tarot cards have occult Kabballah symbology.
And isn't the word lullaby a derivation of a Jewish banishing prayer, to banish Lilith from male infants? I think I read that somewhere.
The New Age Kabbalah connection is probably why much of what you've been posting, Abigail, sounds quite familiiar to me.
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Galen
I see a direct 'military' mindset, though for some reason in our culture that is seen as bad.
Any officer in-charge of others, must respect those 'underneath' him. If he does not, it is at his own peril. Very intelligent men, with high levels of training and years of experience work for him. Each technician is a highly valued part of the team. An officer can in no way, understand everything there is to know about a system. So before making any decision he must ask for recommendations from the system experts. If I say to him that my system can do 'X', but it will fail when doing 'Y'. then he has the information. and he can do as he desires. If he ignores my recommendation, it will back-fire and I will see revenge done [simply because he will fail and we will have to shutdown everything to make repairs due to his arrogance].
Bonnie is good at what she does. I can in no way do what all she does. So I do feel that I need her, to better prosper my household. I respect her and value her opinion. As well as I value her efforts. To ignore her opinion is stupid. She also requires direction and enough materials or supplies so that she can do whatever she is doing each day. Bonnie has a different viewpoint on things than I do. She has a different background of training and expertise. So whenever I am 'stuck' she can commonly look at what I am doing and she will often 'see' another method that would work out better.
I learned from my military career, to always ask for things to be done, in a manner that gives the other person the option of saying 'no' or suggesting a better method. As our children grew up, we did this more and more with them. To show them respect.
For example: "Would you please pass the salt?", could just as easily be followed by "I could, but wouldn't you rather have the potatoes first?"
Lately we have been working on our new house, I have been blowing insulation onto the interior walls. And Bonnie has been helping me a great deal. Helping me move scaffolding around and passing things to me, and I commonly ask for her opinion on all that I do. And she in turn asks for my opinions when researching things, or new projects for herself. and she will ask for me to decide from among various options.
:)
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Abigail
Bramble, quite some time ago I did a small amount of study into the pagan/wiccan beliefs. I have no issue against them, they simply didn't suit me. But I guess, I didn't see the pagan/wiccan thing as being quite the same as the new age stuff, in that the roots of the wiccan practice go back a long ways.
I see the new age trend as the new "in" thing, that will eventually pass out of vogue.
"But then, if Sarah had used Brigit or Diana or Freya, also good 'symbols' of feminine power, she might have p.o.ed a large number of her fans..."
I have come across materials that indicate Rachel, if not Sarah, did worship a goddess - but how accurate that information is, I do not know. Kabbalah sees God has one, but uses various terms to describe characteristics of God for our understanding, and ascribes to them a gender. So perhaps, in some fashion or form, as humans, we tend to want to worship or focus on those characteristics that align with our own gender traits.
"I think that the Kaballah connection to the New Age movement came through older occult sources, like ceremonial magic, and writings, like the Key of Solomen. Traditional tarot cards have occult Kabballah symbology."
I have read of this connection as well, particularly in the mediterranian region. I suspect it was a melding of religious beliefs that took place, but that is only a semi-educated guess. To the best of my knowledge the Chassidics do not use Tarot cards and the such. In my youth I did experiement with such things, but I really don't put any stock in them these days.
"And isn't the word lullaby a derivation of a Jewish banishing prayer, to banish Lilith from male infants? I think I read that somewhere."
this I don't know, but it wouldn't necessarily suprise me. Every culture has its folk lore.
"The New Age Kabbalah connection is probably why much of what you've been posting, Abigail, sounds quite familiiar to me."
I always find it interesting, and think it is really cool, when different religions merge into shared beliefs. I wish human nature was such that we could focus more on what we have in common and less on our differences.
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dancing
Hi Galen,
Sounds like a mutual submission to me.
As the scriptures declare,
submit yourselves one to another.
The head is God or Christ or both.
Wether one believes they are the same or not.
Here in these verses..
1 Corinthians 11
1Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
11Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
13Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered?
14Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
Has to do with following Christ. Long hair is talking about a following. Along with the Nazarite vow. Which includes cutting the hair. Get a following or follower and cut them off and give them the spiritual freedom that God wants them to have. It is a shame for one to have a great following. But for the woman-the spirit, it is a glory to her.
22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
31For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
32This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
33Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
And this sounds very mutual. The head is nothing without the rest.
And not to put you and your marriage down in any way at all.
And not to even disagree. But to shift into a further understanding.
I do hope you see that.
Some VERY spiritual verses in Ephesians 5 here.
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ChattyKathy
I see some good stuff has been added but I have no time now.
But I wanted to say thanks Galen and I liked your response. :)
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Galen
Okay.
Bless you. maam..
:)
Your cool too
;)
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ChattyKathy
:)
And Abi, I still can't stay. Back later.
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ChattyKathy
Abi, real quick in case you're around. I never thought you were saying anything about godess worship in the stuff you were sharing. I was referring to Lilth and how twi got into her and all that stuff. Now I'll read again and have the mind to take in. :)
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ChattyKathy
Abi,
I think your journey is very interesting. And neat for you that you have that thirst. Isn't it interesting some of the differences and how one can be more comfortable. That's such a personal thing isn't it. Yeah, a real heart thing for certain.
Thanks for all the stuff you bring us.
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Bramble
hey-- I meant Sarah Mclachlan naming the L ilith Faire. I think the name was used in a political sense rather than spiritual, that's all.
Yes, i do remember Rachel hiding idols ...
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Sushi
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ChattyKathy
You should read it in the original, it will scare you big time.
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Bramble
Yup, I had a library card and knew how to use it.
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Abigail
Kathy, part of the reason I went into the explanation I did is because, in the past, I had a couple of posters who wrote me with concerns about the ability to discern between the Kabbalah of Judaism and the Kabbalah of the new age movement.
It took a while for your Lilith remark to make its way through the cobwebs of my memory - I think you are referring in part, to LCM's teaching on "original sin", yes? Funny, with all the information on the www about Lilith, you would think he could have come up with better supporting documentation for his theory than a couple of old oil paintings. lol
Bramble, I think you and I have talked before about "The Mists of Avalon". If I am wrong and you haven't read it, I highly recommend it. It was that book that peaked my interest in Wiccan beliefs and Goddesses. It is still my all time favorite book and I still have an interest in those subjects. Again, I think many of the core beliefs are similar, it is the terminology and rituals that differ. I think part of the reason Jusaism appealed to me is because it is my heritage - and it is a heritage that I literally knew almost nothing about until these past couple of years of research. As one who has often felt like an outsider in this world, Judaism has allowed me to feel a sense of connectedness at least on some level, to a culture, a history, and a people.
Hmmmm, I wonder if that sense of disconnectedness is in part due to our melting pot society and the fact that so may of us 3rd generation and beyond people have so little culture that we can call our own?
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Bramble
Yes, we did discuss The Mists of Avalon a long time ago. I too loved those books.
Quote, Abigail : 'Hmmmm, I wonder if that sense of disconnectedness is in part due to our melting pot society and the fact that so may of us 3rd generation and beyond people have so little culture that we can call our own?'
In my experience in the pagan/Wiccan world, heritage and nationality does seem to be a big factor. If people are of Irish descent, they look at Celtic myths etc. I'm such a mutt, I could look at nearly any European country, and some SW Native American tribes, too...
BTW--Looked through the phone book. It is much harder to find Jewish resources in my area of the world than Christian or pagan. In my area there's two Christian book stores, one Catholic bookstore, the Wal Mart carries LDS books, there are two New Age stores (crystals, statues, jewelry etc) and one pagan store (herbs and books.) Nothing Jewish. The local congregational church is where a small synagog meets, and also where the UU church meets. I wonder if they ever have activities with all three congregations togehter. That might be interesting.
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ChattyKathy
Abi, I'll peek in again tonight. Have a good day please.
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Abigail
Bramble, it could be very interesting. We only have two temples here as well, a reconstructionist and reform. Both temples also offer services to accomodate the conservative and orthodox community too. They also participate in interfaith diologue with Christians and Muslims, I have not read of any with pagans, but I am not sure how much of a pagan community exists in these parts.
Kathy, I hope your day is a peaceful one.
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dancing
Abigail,
I'd be interested in anything that became or becomes of that.
Wondering what kind of dialog and such...
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