Speaking in Tongues

[T-Bone]

I Corinthians 12: 3 [NASV]

Therefore I make known to you, that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed", and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

In Receiving the Holy Spirit Today, chapter 11 A Study of I Corinthians 12, VPW comments on this verse on page 135, 136: "To really mean that Jesus is the lord of our lives is to carry out God's orders in obedience to His will. "Speaking by the Spirit of God" is speaking in tongues as God who is Spirit gives the utterance. We believe God means what He says and says what He means, and in this verse the Word says it is impossible for any man to say of his life "Jesus is the lord, but by the Holy Ghost" – which is by way of speaking in tongues."

VPW's statement made sense to me at one time when I was in TWI – but I have come to think verse 3 is talking about someone who is in harmony with the Spirit. As in the passage in Matthew I've listed here:

Matthew 22: 41-45 [NASV]

Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question, saying, "What do you think about the Christ, whose son is He?" They said to Him, "The son of David." He said to them, "Then, how does David in the Spirit call Him 'Lord,' saying, 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I PUT THINE ENEMIES BENEATH THY FEET"'? "If David then calls Him 'Lord," how is He his son?"

To me I Corinthians 12: 3 and Matthew 22:43 convey a similar idea – the speaker is saying Jesus is Lord by the Spirit – influenced by the Spirit, in harmony with the Spirit, something along those lines. Jesus wasn't suggesting that David in the Old Testament spoke in tongues is he?

In The Interpretation of St. Paul's First and Second Epistles to the Corinthians by R.C.H. Lenski, the author offers his own translation of I Corinthians 12:3 [in bold] and I've included some pertinent comments from pages 492, 493:

"Wherefore I give you to understand that no one speaking in union with God's Spirit declares: Accursed is Jesus! And no one is able to declare: Lord is Jesus! Except in union with the Holy Spirit.

…Paul's statement is misunderstood when it is assumed that already in this verse he is speaking about spiritual gifts, in particular about the gift of tongues. This view states that Paul is furnishing the Corinthians a criterion by which they may distinguish the genuine speakers with tongues from the spurious. The genuine have the Spirit and call Jesus "Lord," the spurious curse Jesus and have not the Spirit. But such a statement from the pen of Paul would be surprising. Were there members in the Corinthian congregation who cursed Jesus? And was it necessary for Paul to inform the Corinthians that such people were devoid of the Spirit? And where is there the least evidence that in Corinth or elsewhere pretending speakers with tongues had appeared who were deceiving the church?...Paul is, however, not comparing two men, one who is without the Spirit, the other with the Spirit, one who is cursing Jesus, the other confessing Jesus. For every man who is without the Spirit does not curse Jesus; many do not even know about him. Paul is not talking in the whole world of non-Christians in contrast with all true Christians. He remains in a far narrower sphere. In both halves of his statement he is speaking only about one man, who is animated by the Spirit, and points to what he always does. Thus both subjects are 'no man'."

In my opinion, Lenski's comments make more sense, especially when I consider the similar idea expressed in Matthew 22:43. I like the way Lenski puts it "animated by the Spirit." Which makes me think of John explaining his source of revelation:

Revelation 1: 10, 11 [NASV]

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like the sound of a trumpet, saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches…"

Edited July 3, 2006 by T-Bone

[Goey]

sheesh, just a general statement goey.

Like all the books in the world couldn't hold it like it says in John.

Get so defensive, lighten up. Gsc is a forum with words.

The mind is the only thing that can hold "it".

Everyone is ready to pull a gun or a something around here.

Really beginning to suck.

Clay, I was simply asking for clarification - no more, no less. (and in a nice way I thought). But it seems that even asking for more clarity offends you. It shouldn't. It's called communication.

You answered well in you second sentence -- "Like all the books in the world couldn't hold it like it says in John." That answered my question. But then you went on a unnecessary and unwarranted tirade about defensiveness and gun pulling. Who is really being defensive ?

Clay, since when is asking for clarification or meaning to something said here - equivalent to "ready to pull a gun" ? I suggest that your gun anaolgy is quite misguided.

But, you know what really sucks? It is when people refuse to communicate - or cry foul everytime someone tries to communicate with them (unless it is for the purpose of support & agreement) Sometimes I wonder if you actually want to "communicate" at all.

I think it may be you that needs to lighten up a bit.

Edited July 3, 2006 by Goey

[dancing]

Goey,

Wasn't even speaking to you, perhaps you should just listen.

Whatever I say is taken as a shot from you.

I'm tired of it and you.

Like you can't receive anything from me.

Well you won't, cuz of you not me.

I'm tired of your treatment of me and will not take it anymore.

You think I'm attacking you when it's what you believe that is on the table.

And I could care less at this point what you think of me.

I have to give and that includes you giving and it ain't happening.

So go trail someone else who exposes the darkness in your head.

I have enough to deal with in my own head.

Your arrogance and high mindedness and everything has to fit into your thinking attitude is getting pretty old tiresome and down right annoying. So if you lack understanding ask God.

And you do lack as well as I. And I speak from what I know unless I say I don't and am willing to be corrected by those who love not those who look for fault to exploit.

And no i don't take it personal, that's just the way it is. I've seen it from you to me and if you don't see it, let me be the first to point it out.

And i will continue to post what I believe and the changes that occur in me.

There is no book or forum that i could write or post in that can fully show anyone what God can will and does work in the heart. And yes He does work in people not dead letters from dead men and people who try to make the dead word alive without the Spirit of God as promised.

So sorry if you take offense, it's not my intent, but to unload on you. I hope to God you can take it.

We are to be meek to each other, and as much as i've tryed with you, there is still this thing that you got up your butt about me for some reason.

And whatever it is i ask for forgiveness and let's move on and find the things of God that he has already given, that we may have fellowship with Him and each other.

Edited July 4, 2006 by dancing

[pond]

Dancing Goey ask for clarification from me in posts I write.. in the same style as he writes and I take no offense other than the thought that everyone thinks everyone should "know what they meant"

the written word is not that speak easy dancing and you again attacking Goey with name calling and your personal feelings .

I think your sound mean arrogant and just a bully you throw fits on an open forum like a two year old in a toy store .

He is not picking on you that is how goey writes I have been asked for clarification by Goey in the very same manner you have, and when i try to explain what I meant I am not attacked nor where you .

your a constant victim on this forum you know that? dancing you constantly got to find something to complain about in the posters and I have to tell you it is just not always about you as much as you try to make it be as such.

[Sudo]

Dancing,

You've got problems in your own head. Goey has been nothing but logical and considerate.

sudo

[dancing]

If I'm misunderstood, i will clarify as I see fit.

As I just did.

There is no victim except lack of fellowship and understanding.

If my intentions are not seen by some by now,

they will not be seen till there is a change on the others part.

And you pond put your 2 cents in when you don't even follow what is going on here at gsc. By your own admission.

[pond]

You may think your profound and i have to tell you dancing you often sound quite ignorant .

I read the thread and as boring as you are trust me it is not exactly brain science what you want.

You want "fellowship and understanding" and to achieve your goal "others need to change. (and if the do not they are attacked by you with a venom and nastiness no one wants to read but those who need to comply because it is still ingrained from a cult like mindset from another nasty know it all .

and you constantly have your hands on your hips and a scowl on your face with a disgusting tone of arrogance and victimhood.

Did you lose your twig to somone alot better looking or what?

[dancing]

Sudo, so be it,

I've got other forums with those who know.

I've already admitted to me having problems.

So what.

The ghosts of thw way and pfal hang here like a dark cloud that engulfs me. And to break out of it and post new thinking and new ideas raises the hairs on many. Even myself.

Well, maybe it's time for some to awake to the true nature of what we got into in the way. And the true nature of one VPW and what he did to turn us away from God instead of to Him and the new birth which hardly anyone here knows a damn thing about.

So say what you want I don't get surprised by it at all. Yet there is a certain part of me that returns here to speak and possibly some will see and hear or not.

So maybe I'll just watch the children play in the schoolyard for a while and move on. I don't know. Right here is where I got more then you know.

And go ahead and take offense and the word children, John used the word quite often. As well as Jesus. So I'm in good company.

You judge that which you do not understand. This thread is about speaking in toungues. I am speaking in the toungues of men. Since most refuse the toungues of angels.

[dancing]

pond

You don't read to well do you.

I've already stated my willingness to change.

And i have changed much.

Right before many eyes and it's been missed by most.

No matter.

[pond]

yes dancing I read well enough to hear you say , the forum is about you and your needs and to heck with any feedback or discussion that doesn not meet your approval.

[dancing]

Ok, you all can take what you think i've taken.

Let the pfal/vpw people have the cafe again.

It's been ripped out of their hands and they can have it back now.

So be it as some suppose.

[pond]

you and your assumptions dancing I am none of what you call me, I am not a supporter of anything but the truth .

you want this to be a hate web site and you hate the fact you cant be so darn mean and put out those who do not agree with you.

[Goey]

Goey,

Wasn't even speaking to you, perhaps you should just listen.

If that is true, then why did you address me by name? (Assuming you refer to your previous post) If you refer to the post prior to when I asked what you meant, it does not have to be addressed to me for me to ask a question. That's how forums work. If you want to talk and tell your ideas in a doctrinal forum and and have folks "just listen" that is probably not gonna happen here (as much as you might like it to.)

Whatever I say is taken as a shot from you.

I'm tired of it and you.

Like you can't receive anything from me.

Well you won't, cuz of you not me.

I'm tired of your treatment of me and will not take it anymore.

You think I'm attacking you when it's what you believe that is on the table.

And I could care less at this point what you think of me.

I have to give and that includes you giving and it ain't happening.

So go trail someone else who exposes the darkness in your head.

I have enough to deal with in my own head.

I think I have treated you pretty well actually. I am not "trailing" you. And if you have assigned yourself as the great exposer of of the darkness in my head or anyone elses, then you are just like that poster who assigned himself to expose the "conspiracy" between you and Todd and your "evil" doctrines. Think about it.

Clay, you have not exposed anything but your own unwillingness to communicate or civily exchange ideas with others.

Your arrogance and high mindedness and everything has to fit into your thinking attitude is getting pretty old tiresome and down right annoying. So if you lack understanding ask God.

And you do lack as well as I. And I speak from what I know unless I say I don't and am willing to be corrected by those who love not those who look for fault to exploit.

I offer no defense against your accusations because it might appear to qualify them. Why don't you go back read Tom's post to Allen about the speck and the beam.

And no i don't take it personal, that's just the way it is. I've seen it from you to me and if you don't see it, let me be the first to point it out.

Let ME point out that your reactions do not seem to reconcile with your claim that you "don't take it personal."

And i will continue to post what I believe and the changes that occur in me.

That's a given Clay. Except possibly for one poster, no one has ever suggested that you don't contine to post. Just understand that others have the same right as you do to post what they believe, even if it disagrees or appears to disagree with your beliefs.

There is no book or forum that i could write or post in that can fully show anyone what God can will and does work in the heart. And yes He does work in people not dead letters from dead men and people who try to make the dead word alive without the Spirit of God as promised.

I agree with you that God works in the hearts of people. I also agree that you cannot write or post in a book or forum to fully show what God can do in hearts of men. That is God's job, not yours or mine. And I think He and those he appointed did a pretty fair job with the Bible to put in in words. But of course it has to be experienced, does it not ? For the record, I have always included the Spirit of God in my approach to biblical understanding. Posted it here many times over the years. So to whom do you refer ?

Where did anyone here suggest or imply that God works in "dead letters from dead men" ? Maybe you refer to "scripture worship" or "bibliolitry". I say those folks are few and far between here at GS -- that is unless you want to label anyone that way that does not follow your particular inward/within hermeneutical approach to biblical interpretation.

So sorry if you take offense, it's not my intent, but to unload on you. I hope to God you can take it.

Seems intentional to me .....But yes, I can take it.

We are to be meek to each other, and as much as i've tryed with you, there is still this thing that you got up your butt about me for some reason.

Again I refer you back to Tom's post on the speck and the beam. (Use "butt" instead of "eye".)

And whatever it is i ask for forgiveness and let's move on and find the things of God that he has already given, that we may have fellowship with Him and each other.

Clay, you are a dichotomy. You attempt to tear me down, telling me I am arrogant and high-minded, that I have darkness in my head and stuff up my butt. Then you ask for my forgiveness for "for whatever it is"- And all in the same post?

Somehow I find your asking for forgiveness to be a bit less than sincere.

Edited July 4, 2006 by Goey

[allan w.]

THATS why Clay and Todd are 'soulmates' ( to use their own description of their relationship ). And that is what I find so OFFENSIVE, that they 'espouse' a spiritually deep self awareness and wish it on others, yet when affronted, are as nasty as a bee up a butt. Something aint right in the town of Bend !!

[sirguessalot]

for the record....no one has said Clay and I were "soulmates" but allan.

he is taking some comments about friendship way too far.

and as usual...fails to provide quotes to back up his false accusations

also, i have no idea what is going on between everyone on this thread. I have nothing to do with it, whatsoever.

and also...the city of Bend has nothing to do with this thread, whatsoever.

and allan, if you continue to post things about me on other threads i am not even involved with...i reserve the right to get in your face about that, too.

Edited July 4, 2006 by sirguessalot

[allan w.]

Todd...someone more forum 'savvy' than me could find it, earlier on Clay made the comment you and him have a friendship that can never be broken ? Lets not dickey about with words eh ? At the time I thought that was pretty unusual considering you said you two had never met personally ?? You met on the forum ?

Getting back to 'anamcara'...Todd, I beg to differ with what you said. Visiting the site it talks about not being a 'religion' but rather a 'spirituality' embracing age old traditions, cultures etc.. A picture of grown men face painting themselves and getting in touch with their primeveal inner self ? I'm sorry, I didn't get the impression there was much of the Jesus I know, figuring in the project. Men going into a 'retreat in the bush' and stripping down and yelling and beating 'tom-tom' drums has been done before !

IMO 'the sacred art of dying' is a good cover for what is really being promoted Todd.

That is all I have to say on the subject, I know I've said it before. We appear to follow two very differn't Jesus is all.

[sirguessalot]

fine, you had your say...very different Jesus's, yada yada etc...

now be done with it

because you know little to nothing about me, or that project, or what is really being promoted

yet you have had so much to say about it all

and so yeah...i am naturally quite interested in what you have to say about it

and will be reading your posts

when you stop posting comments about people and their personal life

i will pull that nasty bee out of your butt

i promise

btw..if you cant restrain yourself...please try and comment on the thread i actually started about the project.

i will gladly engage you there, and try to provide all the information you need.

if you need help finding it, let me know.

Edited July 4, 2006 by sirguessalot

[allan w.]

And Todd...if you're ever Downunda' (Melbourne area) let me know...we'll catch up for a beer (and I'll even buy first round) !

[allan w.]

And yes, I probably was a bit 'harsh' towards Clay (upon re-reading my post) Wish I could quote some scriptures to 'justify' it.

[oldiesman]

It clearly says here - "the other is not edified". Yet you use this section to prove the practice of speaking in tongues FOR someone? What's up with that ?

The way I understand it, speaking in tongues is praying in the spirit, and giving of thanks, among other things.

When we pray, we not only pray for ourselves, but others as well. Speaking in tongues is speaking and praying in the spirit. What exactly is expressed one does not know since it is tongues, but God looks on the heart, and Romans says God (and/or Christ) makes intercession for the saints through the spirit according to the will of God. That is why it can be reasoned, when one speaks in tongues, one may be praying for someone.

[Galen]

To SIT out loud in a group, you may be edified yourself, but as for the group 'others' are not edified.

Which is why Paul goes on to explain that to edify the 'others' in the group someone must either interpret tongues or prophecy.

The only exception would be of course for those rare occasions when someone else in the group recognizes your tongue as their native language and can understand it.

As happened at the original 'out-pouring'.

:)

[dancing]

I think the original out-pouring was in their native languages.

[Tom]

Last week I had dinner with a believer who spoke in tongues & interpreted at a recent fellowship. After the fellowship, someone who had come for the first time came over to him and asked him where he had learned the language - one he knew and spoke. He had understood every word. My dinner companion said it took a few times trying to explain to the newcomer that he hadn't learned the language.

"No, I didn't learn the language in a school; it was spiritually inspired."

"No, no, no, I didn't grow up with someone who spoke the language." And so forth.

[oldiesman]

I'd be interested to know what was said. Prayer or praise?

[Galen]

I think the original out-pouring was in their native languages.

Yes native to various of the other peoples present, just not native to the Galileans who did the speaking.

:)

Last week I had dinner with a believer who spoke in tongues & interpreted at a recent fellowship. After the fellowship, someone who had come for the first time came over to him and asked him where he had learned the language - one he knew and spoke. He had understood every word. My dinner companion said it took a few times trying to explain to the newcomer that he hadn't learned the language.

"No, I didn't learn the language in a school; it was spiritually inspired."

"No, no, no, I didn't grow up with someone who spoke the language." And so forth.

That is cool when it happens. Such happened to me at a fellowship once. I SIT and interpreted, and another man present understood the SIT as it was in his native language. It really excited him, and was a big blessing to all of us.

:)