That's great, but it seems you, like me, don't believe some verses you don't want to believe. Or else you don't believe they are applicable to you, such as the ones in Acts and Corinthians about SIT. Like the one in Jude about "building up yourselfs...praying in the HS." Perhaps you believe these verses applied in an earlier time but not now? Don't see the profit in them in your life?
Wrong again Oldies. I simply do not accept Wierwille's interpretation of certain scriptures - or Stiles' for that matter. If you paid any attention at all, you should have noticed that nearly everytime I used SIT in my posts, I qualified it with, "as TWI taught it" or as was practiced in TWI. Does that tell you something?
I think Wierwille was wrong about the manifestations / gifts being given to everyone as that person wills. I think the HE in 1 Cor 12:11 refers to GOD and not the person. While you errantly take it that I don't believe certain scriptures, the reality is that don't believe TWI's spin on those scriptures.
Goey, I also gather from some of your statements that you believe some O.T. scriptures apply directly to you as well and yet again at the same time you sidestep some of those in Acts and Corinthians and others.
I've proceeded similarly. I don't believe verses about tithing are applicable to me. There are others as well.
Well I guess it's all a matter of choice what one believes, and some of us still believe SIT and all the benefits and blessings of the 1st Century Church can apply to believers today.
Here's one way J.E. Stiles put it, from page 16 of his book, "The Gift of the Holy Spirit"
Yeah, I think some of the OT applies, Love God, Love your neighbor, don't lie,. don't steal, etc. But that has nothing to do "sidestepping". I haven't sidestepped anything Oldies, If I have sidestepped something, show me what and how and I will discuss it. But for the record, I doubt there are too many similarities in how you and I have proceded to understand the scriptures.
As for believing what we choose to believe you are correct. But let me point out that I have no theological hero or "Father in the Word" whose teachings I am (blindly?) commited to. I come to my own conculsions thought my own independent study, observations and experiences, rather than wholesale acceptance of the teachings of one man -- or one particular theological system. I think that gives m me bit of an edge in the objectivity category. I am free to change my mind if compelled to do so. I have very few sacred cows to cling to or to defend.
Oldies, show me how you or anyone else is better off spiritually for speaking in tongues, as TWI taught it, than the person who does not. Have you ressurected the first century church yet with your speaking in tongues?
To get back to best part of first century Christianity, I would say folks should probably concentrate a little bit more on being loving than on being tinkling symbols.
I believe that the 'manifestations' are available to every b/a Believer as they (will) to believe to receive and operate them. Why ? Forget about whether VP got it right or wrong, or Stiles or even Joseph Smith for a moment...
IF I were to receive 'word of knowledge' (for example), something I needed to know. Do I then have to wait around for someone else to give me a 'word of wisdom' concerning what to do about it ? What if no-one else was around ? God is going to make me wait til someone else with that (gift) turns up ?
How absurd ! Think about it.
I'll give you an actual example (something I usually can't be bothered doing, but here goes)
When our youngest daughter Leah (some of you GS'ers may remember her in F20) was about 18 months old, Selina and I were at a beach doing a bit of witnessing, enjoying an ice-cream etc...
Selina was sitting about 40 feet away feeding Leah pieces of apple. I had my back turned looking at the water, sitting on the sea wall. As clear as day, God said to me " I will teach you the Word like...just kidding !
God said to me "look at Leahs mouth" (word of knowledge). I looked and it was like God 'zoom lensed' her mouth to me. In her mouth was a wasp on a piece of apple. " God then said "Don't yell out any thing, just run (word of wisdom). I ran over, scooped my finger in her mouth and pulled the apple and the wasp out.
So no matter how much you want to argue and strain at gnats, to me, the manifestations (all nine) are available. To me, the Word of God makes absolute sense, fits like a hand in a glove etc..and I'm sure as hell thankful a man 'plagerised' works to make it known.
So no matter how much you want to argue and strain at gnats,
I thought you were straining at a wasp? :lol:
But seriously, it's not straining at gnats when one wants to honestly make sense out of spiritual matters.
In your illustration, God gave you revelation, or information, or whatever you want to call it, when you needed it. You didn't have to will to receive it or anything like that. And who says that that's what Word of Knowledge and Word of Wisdom are anyway? Neither are defined in the bible. One can make suppositions or inferences that such-and-such record is "Word of Knowledge", but then you're circularly making the illustration of the definition fit the definition, which is based on the illustration...
Are you seriously suggesting ("To me, the Word of God makes absolute sense, fits like a hand in a glove etc..and I'm sure as hell thankful a man 'plagerised' works to make it known.") that God couldn't have showed you the wasp and told you what to do about it without PFAL? I doubt that you intend to, but that's the message that your words convey.
From your posts you seem like a guy who accepts what God has to give him, sees signs, miracles and wonders, and lives life in a fairly uncomplicated God-centered lifestyle. But that's not what Vic Wierwille taught. PFAL was all about formulas, and definitions, and putting the minutia of "the Word" before simple love. Heck, he taught for hours in the Advanced Class about distinctions between Word of Knowledge and Word of Wisdom. Who gives a rat's foot? You don't appear to, but this is the guy who you're so thankful for.
I suppose that's a fair assumption of me ! To be honest I myself couldn't/wouldn't be bothered about the 'soup to nuts' methodology of the manifestations either. I thought when LCM went on about the order of the manifestations as laid out in 1 Corinthians, "interpretation of tongues being mentioned last because" etc... I I thought what a bunch of egotistical crap, they're laid out that way because something had to be last !!
But what I will say is this, that I do believe 'working the Word' IS ONE of the 'keys', 'ways' (whatever one wants to call it) to making one more 'perceptive' to the voice of God.
Oaks, this is one of a number of 'things' that happened to me and Selina and (others we know) that demonstrated the hand of God in a manifested way. If it was only a 'one-off' thing, I would put it down to 'lucky' or whatever, I'm not an idiot (although some would disagree) !
But I still believe in the power of God, not just in an ethereal, mysignostic (is that a word ? it just popped into my head) kind of a way, but in a real way that can change and alter our lives and circumstances at any given moment (in a positive way).
IF I were to receive 'word of knowledge' (for example), something I needed to know. Do I then have to wait around for someone else to give me a 'word of wisdom' concerning what to do about it ? What if no-one else was around ? God is going to make me wait til someone else with that (gift) turns up ?
How absurd ! Think about it.
It's abusurd because you made it absurd within the framework of VP's definitions.
Oak makes a good point. The definitions you use are Wierwille's. eg, So the reasoning becomes somewhat circular. But that aside ....according to Wierwille.
Word of knowledge = Information from God that could not be known by the human senses
Word of wisdom = what to do with that information.
I fail to see how God revealing to somone via the spirit that "the house is on fire, get out the back door" is actually two "manifestations" instead of one. They are both informational. I am not too sure that VP got his definitions correct on these.
I think word of wisdom, is more like an illumination or insight (wisdom) into God's plans and myseries that help in guiding the body of believers towards His will. More of general gift given to certain individuals for the direction of the body of believers, than a personal situational one.
I wonder - was it "revelation" in the case of Allan protecting his daughter - or a heightened state of parental instinct? Most parents tend to be in state of high alert when it comes to watching after their very young children. I won't strain a wasp over this - but I thought such worth mentioning.
I wonder - was it "revelation" in the case of Allan protecting his daughter - or a heightened state of parental instinct? Most parents tend to be in state of high alert when it comes to watching after their very young children. I won't strain a wasp over this - but I thought such worth mentioning.
Danny
Sure, I thought so too, but the story was an illustration of Allan's position of "manifestations", so I took it at face value
Though I do find Wierwille's explanation of the singular use of "manifestation" without merit, I can see it descriptive of something altogether. Though there is a list of distinct gifts of the Spirit, it is stated "manifestation" because there is no particular distinction of the gifts when there is a "manifestation of the Spirit". To be fair, perhaps that's what Wierwille was getting at, albeit poorly, when he tried to show 'all 9' in use for every miracle or healing. Geez, whadda stretch.
Believers may pray and bless others with the spirit. Here's where I believe it comes from:
1Cr 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
Nothing here about speaking in tongues FOR someone.
1Cr 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
Nothing here either
1Cr 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit ...,
Possible when read out of context, but you left out the second half of the verse that explains what the blessing is and to whom it is directed.
If you had completed verse 14 it would have shown that it was the giving of thanks was what refered to not the practice of praying FOR someone in tongues. The context was "in the church" when folks are together -- not in private prayer.
1 Cor 14:16 - 17
16: Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit,
how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17:
For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
It clearly says here - "the other is not edified". Yet you use this section to prove the practice of speaking in tongues FOR someone? What's up with that ?
This section is probably refering to prayers of thanks to God within a church gathering, like saying grace over a meal - the emphasis being on praying in understanding instead if speaking in tongues.
If you want to speak in tongues FOR people/things thats your perogative. However you have provided no scriptural basis for that practice.
'heightened parental instinct' ?? Me, ? I just give credit where credit is due !
Well tonight when I got out of work, I stopped at the 4-way intersection at the end of the industrial parkway. When the light turned green, I had no inclination to immediately step on the gas. I just sat there a couple seconds, and whoa, dude! a car sped right through the intersection from the other direction, giving no heed to the red light on their side.
Revelation? word of knowledge? word of wisdom? - I wasn't thinking anything man!
No, being crispy around the edges after a long day at work, my brain finally sparked, as I stepped on the gas: "Hmm, how about that. I wonder what's for dinner?"
Well tonight when I got out of work, I stopped at the 4-way intersection at the end of the industrial parkway. When the light turned green, I had no inclination to immediately step on the gas. I just sat there a couple seconds, and whoa, dude! a car sped right through the intersection from the other direction, giving no heed to the red light on their side.
Revelation? word of knowledge? word of wisdom? - I wasn't thinking anything man!
No, being crispy around the edges after a long day at work, my brain finally sparked, as I stepped on the gas: "Hmm, how about that. I wonder what's for dinner?"
Danny
Not revelation, or word of knowledge or word of wisdom or a sign or a miracle.
Definitely a wonder, though.
"I wonder - was it "revelation" in the case of Allan protecting his daughter - or a heightened state of parental instinct?"
I haven't figured everything out on the issue of TWI's version of speaking in tongues – but there has been an evolution of how I address the subject. Initially, when I left TWI most of my criteria were anecdotally based – trying to come to some conclusions thinking about my own experiences and those of others I knew in TWI. As time went on, I felt I needed to set some intellectual standards – and thus review the Bible, TWI's doctrine, and my own thinking a little more critically.
In my opinion, TWI's doctrine on speaking in tongues has eclipsed the importance of prayer in our understanding. I feel TWI's version of speaking in tongues is mind numbing [does not engage the intellect], and usually self-centered [directed towards a personal agenda]. It gives a false sense of securing the promises of God, insulates the person from the transforming effect of communion with God [since their mind is not involved in the process], and can lead to self-deception, pride, and hypocrisy. I have listed below a number of points as to why I think TWI's teaching on speaking in tongues is in error.
Some things to consider about Speaking in Tongues, TWI's version of it and Prayer in our Understanding
1. The significant purpose of Speaking in Tongues.I noted this in my previous post [# 71]. In The MacArthur Study Bible on I Corinthians 14, John MacArthur suggests tongues ceased after serving a threefold purpose: a sign to unbelieving Jews , a significant blessing of God building a new nation of Jews and Gentiles [Romans 11:11,12,25-27; Galatians 3:28], and authenticating those who preached the gospel [iI Corinthians 12:12].
2. Decline of Speaking in Tongues after the book of Acts period.The Encyclopedia Britannica notes under Speaking in Tongues "The greatest emphasis upon the gift in the early church was made by followers of the 2nd century prophet Montanus. His excommunication about 177 and the later decline of the sect probably contributed to a climate of opinion unfavorable to speaking in tongues, and the practice declined. During later church history, glossolalia occurred in various groups. In modern times, it occurred during various Protestant revivals in the United States, in the early 20th century." In The MacArthur New Testament Commentary: I Corinthians, John MacArthur states on page 361, "…the gift of tongues has evidently ceased because, since the apostolic age, it has reappeared only spasmodically and questionably throughout nineteen centuries of church history. The gift of tongues is nowhere alluded to or found in any writings of the church Fathers. Clement of Rome wrote a letter to the Corinthian church in the year 95, only about four decades after Paul wrote I Corinthians. In discussing problems in the church, Clement made no mention of tongues. Apparently, both the use and misuse of that gift had ceased. Justin Martyr, the great church Father of the second century, visited many of the churches of his day, yet in his voluminous writings he mentions nothing of tongues. It is not mentioned even among his several lists of spiritual gifts."
3. Different Greek words for "set aside" and "cease". FromThe NET Bible I Corinthians 13: 8-11, "Love never ends. But if there are prophecies, they will be set aside; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be set aside. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when what is perfect comes, the partial will be set aside. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways." In the Greek text set aside is katargeo and cease is pauomai.
According to The Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised 1978 Edition by Harold Moulton, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament Abridged in One Volume by Geoffrey Bromiley, The Word Study Concordance by George Wigram and Ralph Winter and A Basic Grammar of the New Testament by George Aristotle Hadjiantoniou: Katargeo [translated set aside] is passive – meaning something or someone is setting it aside. In the New Testament, this word can mean: to condemn to inactivity, to destroy, to take out of the sphere of activity, to make inoperative. In other words in saying, "prophecies, they will be set aside [katargeo]" either an event or a person is rendering prophecies inoperative. A few other katargeo occurrences: Romans 3:3 "make the faith of God without effect", I Corinthians 1:28 "to bring to naught things that are", I Corinthians 6:13 "God shall destroy both it and them", II Corinthians 3:7 "which glory was to be done away", II Timothy 1:10 "Christ, who hath abolished death."
Pauomai [translated cease] to stop, to come to an end. This word differs from katargeo in that it is in the middle voice – the subject exercises the activity indicated by the verb with special reference to itself. A few other occurrences of pauomai: Luke 11:1 "when he ceased, one of his disciples said", Acts 5:42 "they ceased not to teach and preach", I Peter 3:10 "let him refrain his tongue from evil." In other words, in saying "tongues they will cease [pauomai]" it implies a built-in stopping point.
From the above differences in the Greek words used for set aside and cease – it appears to me there's a difference in how tongues will stop and how prophesy and knowledge will stop. Perhaps it may mean God had a limited "lifespan" built into tongues and after serving their purpose [suggested in point 1] they stopped. Whereas, prophecy and knowledge will someday be rendered inoperative by some event or person – and until such time remain in effect.
4. Spiritual abilities are distributed according to God's discretion. As I mentioned in a previous post [#47] VPW taught that every believer has the ability to operate all nine manifestations suggesting I Corinthians 12:11 "dividing to every man severally as He will" meant as the man wills according to his believing. I disagree, in my opinion the entire chapter emphasizes it is God's prerogative to whom the spiritual abilities are given and that every believer is not given all nine. I think the chapter centers around God's influence - in I Corinthians 12: v.4 "…there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit," v.5 "…varieties of ministries, and the same Lord," v.6 "varieties of effects, but the same God," v.11 "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills" v.13 "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body…all made to drink of one Spirit" v.18 But now God has placed the members…just as He desired" v.24 "…God has so composed the body" v.28 "And God has appointed in the church, first apostles…" It makes me wonder – if God is the one who works all these things – then why do we need a man or a class to teach us about them? Where do you see in I Corinthians 12, 13 and 14 instructions on how to operate the manifestations – I mean how to actually do them? You don't! These chapters reveal how much the Corinthians wigged-out on their charismata! They needed some instruction on God being in charge, doing everything out of love and in a gracious and orderly fashion.
5. The Bible emphasizes we engage our intellect in prayer.A study of prayer in the Bible will often touch upon attitudes and thoughts we're to adopt and to avoid. Matthew 6:5 "…when you pray do not be like the hypocrite." Mark 11:25 "…when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him…" Matthew 6:7 "…when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition, as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words." For the Bible to encourage us to cultivate humility, persistence, trust, forgiveness, sincerity, etc. in prayer necessitates we engage our minds in the process. I think there was a prevalent idea while I was in TWI that you could be out of fellowship, sinning like a trooper – but you could still speak in tongues which is perfect prayer so everything will work out alright anyway. I think true prayer comes from the heart – from way down deep inside our being – what we think about, what we want – a good reason for us to guard our hearts as Proverbs 4:23 says. To "tremble with fear and do not sin! Do some soul-searching as you lie in bed, and repent of your ways!" as Psalms 4:4 The NET Bible puts it.
I think when Scripture encourages us to pray in the Spirit it means we're to make a conscious effort to be in harmony with the Holy Spirit – reflecting on our motivation, thoughts, and behavior as we beseech our Heavenly Father. Psalms 37:4 "Delight yourself in the Lord; And He will give you the desires of your heart." Could be understood two ways: God answers our prayers [the desires of our heart] and He may put desires in our heart. I equate delighting in the Lord as being in step with the Spirit. Ephesians 6:18 "With all prayer and petition [deesis] pray at all times in the Spirit…" The Greek word deesis is supplication, a request, or prayer for specific benefits. That implies the content of my prayers [specific requests] are directed by my mind. It is NOT pressing the S.I.T. button to launch a magical encrypted language that is equivalent to the Star Ship Enterprise's Photon Torpedoes…Didn't VPW in the PFAL class say he hardly ever prayed in his understanding? He believed in the superiority of speaking in tongues. Even in the Corps, I recall how often my mind drifted into daydreaming, worrying or thinking about anything EXCEPT what I was speaking in tongues for - doing the goofy 4 fifteens [yeah, that really kept TWI on the straight and narrow path!].
...Sometimes I think of prayer in my understanding as perhaps a verbal affirmation or agreement with God - that as I speak the words that I know I should say - I am aware of their reproof of some hidden hypocrisy they have flushed out of my heart - my conscious will not shut up! There have been times as I'm praying for something - when all of a sudden it's like a boxer nails me with a round-house punch while my guard is down; I become aware of how unloving I was toward my wife tonight, or lied about something at work. And as I recover from this blow to my ego - I feel a resolve to right that wrong and my prayer switches gears from being a prayer for whatever - to asking the Father for forgiveness, strength and wisdom to draft a plan of action. And how much of all that going on in our hearts is from the Spirit? The Holy Spirit oversees the Word of God. Much of our prayer phrasing comes from the Bible - I imagine the Spirit can make a particular word, phrase or thought sizzle with energy - or heal. Alright, I'm starting to sound like the sappy Eternity commercials "I don't know where I end and the Spirit begins." Better move on to point 6.
6. The essence of prayer is communion and partnership with God.The thrust ofour Lord's teaching on prayer in Matthew 6:8-13 focuses our attention on the person of our Heavenly Father, His purpose and will, His sufficiency for us, His forgiveness, His guidance, His deliverance, His kingdom, power and glory. Point 5is the process of prayer – point 6 is the object of our prayer. The object of our prayer should be God, His purpose, His will, His glory – not the thing we're praying for, not our own agenda. I think of Paul praying to God three times about his thorn in the flesh – the solution wasn't in Paul's prayers – but in God's strength! If prayer is to be such an integral part of our lives maybe it means any situation in life can be an opportunity to commune with our Heavenly Father, becoming an impromptu prayer/fellowship with Him. When I think of Psalms I think of the spiritually vibrant rapport the writers seem to possess with God – God Almighty – Creator of the Universe! Amid their confessions of doubt, frustration, sin, failures, disappointments – there's still some sort of indescribable tether, some connection, some partnership between the Creator and the creature. Yes, I believe we are fallen creatures - and that's why I'm amazed that God still wants us to approach Him – to hang out with Him – to confide in Him – to trust Him - and of all things toLOVE Him - He wantsMY love!
7. TWI's pride with the manifestations overshadowed Christian love.I think I Corinthians 13, the chapter on love, sets the top priority for every Christian – a priority ignored by TWI. This is just my opinion – but try reading some of the My Story or By the Way threads. Note the frequent occurrence of leadership coming down on a believer because God showed them how screwed up they were and needed the beating of the week. When I was in Corps training – I got to see first hand the utter conceit of the top leadership of TWI – as they would speak with such hatred and disdain about any Christian group outside TWI, who didn't speak in tongues or operate the other manifestations according to their standards. Without the governing influence of love – our selfish egos become maniacal bulldozers plowing aside anyone who gets caught in the cross-hairs of our "in-depth spiritual perception and awareness." Jesus summed up the whole point of God's moral law – LOVE for God and your neighbor. I don't recall in the gospels Jesus conducting a bunch of "practice sessions" on the revelation or power manifestations with His disciples; or teaching the "Advanced Class" on them. He sure did teach a lot about love – oh uh – verbally too, besides His example!
I think there is a position for you in the Grease Spot Research Department.
Thanks.
"...Sometimes I think of prayer in my understanding as perhaps a verbal affirmation or agreement with God - that as I speak the words that I know I should say - I am aware of their reproof of some hidden hypocrisy they have flushed out of my heart - my conscious will not shut up!"
Exactly my point. I have spoke it tongues so much, that I felt prayer with my understanding was inferior. Therefore, now that I am, really talking and hearing my prayers, I am readily aware of my faults, my problems, and what I need to address immediately. Back in SIT much days, I don't think I asked for true forgiveness for anything. It should be DAILY! I never learned to ask for forgiveness daily. Weird.
I now teach my kids this. After 8 years of children's fellowship and countless nightime prayers!!!
I am so disappointed. Now I at least can make up for it. I share with them to:
"P" raise GOD- "God you are wonderful, you are the one who gives us strength. You are my provider......"
"R" EPENTANCE- daily CONFESSION TIME , yes, I always missed this one.
"A" cknowledgement- I acknowledge His right to rule and reign in my life. THIS IS THE "THANK YOU TIME"!
"I" ntersession- Pray for others!
"S"upplication- NOW I pray for myself.
"E" quipping- Ask Him to equip me in every way for a victorious day. Give me eyes that I may see HIM and Ears that hear Him today.
This is just the tip of the iceburg of what I have been learning since leaving the bondage and selfishness of the Way.
I love it. I finally have a RELATIONSHIP with my Lord and God.
1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
but unto God-speaking to God...hmmmm would that be the God in christ in you?
3But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
edifieth himself-certainly the one speaking in tougueshas God within
5I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
edifying-the whole point
6Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
this tells me to walk by the spirit and know when to speak in tougues
7And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
both within and without
13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
yeah...be wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove
20Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
understanding the tougues, growing from a child to a man
21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
26How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
if there be no interpreter-no one will hear and understand
29Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
Let your women keep silence in the churches-speaking of the spirit and controling it's toungue
35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
ask their husbands at home-Christ
36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
Amen
39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40Let all things be done decently and in order.
My comments and understanding to date....are in bold.
I was driving down the road today, on my way to the local supermarket to pick up some corn-on-the-cob for my backyard barbecue, when, upon turning onto route 66, I beheld a tag sale.
Lo and behold, my super-telescopic vision zoomed upon two large, audio-looking console cabinets amidst the tag sale clutter. I was overwhelmed with the compulsion to turn around and check it out!
Wow. It was an old late 50s-early 60s Magnavox tube-amp stereophonic, high-fidelity phonograph system, comprised of two large cabinets within which are mounted two, monster 15 inch woofers.
Yep, I bought it, and proceeded to barely squeeze both huge cabinets into the backseat of my 98 Plymouth Neon.
Total price paid for this vintage, Magnavox, high-fidelity, stereophonic tube amp with ancient phonograph?
$5.
The experience of dragging this thing into my garage, sweeping out the dust-bunnies, plugging it in and watching the warm orange glow of those tubes come to life?
Priceless.
My wife's going to freak when she walks into the garage (lol).
old late 50s-early 60s Magnavox tube-amp stereophonic, high-fidelity phonograph system, comprised of two large cabinets within which are mounted two, monster 15 inch woofers.
Danny, this sounds like a wonderful thing, but I'm wondering - okay, I'll bite (why do I feel like I'm going to regret this question?), what does this have to do with the doctrine of speaking in tongues?
Danny, this sounds like a wonderful thing, but I'm wondering - okay, I'll bite (why do I feel like I'm going to regret this question?), what does this have to do with the doctrine of speaking in tongues?
(lol). Well let me just say this, Tom, that the singing-of-tongues on my vinyl copy of Faure's "Requiem" -especially when experienced through the wondrous clarity of tube-amp sound - I'm going to find extremely edifying indeed.
Lest I derail further, let me offer some thoughts recently on the topic.
I'm almost convinced that there isn't one letter attributed to the apostle Paul that predates the second century. They were all IMO composed at the beginning of the 2nd century.
The more I read them, the more they reflect - in my view - the environs of the second century rather than the first.
Lets take for example 1 Cor.12:1-3:
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Now Wierwille taught that "speaking by the spirit of God" = speaking in tongues, but I think Pliny (circ.110 AD), from Pliny to the Emperor Trajan (Pliny, Letters 10.96-97) exhibits (in my view, at least) a far more compelling reason for why this passage is there, in relation to a certain interrogation practice employed by rulers to get Christians to disown their faith:
"Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed. For I had no doubt that, whatever the nature of their creed, stubbornness and inflexible obstinacy surely deserve to be punished. There were others possessed of the same folly; but because they were Roman citizens, I signed an order for them to be transferred to Rome.
Soon accusations spread, as usually happens, because of the proceedings going on, and several incidents occurred. An anonymous document was published containing the names of many persons. Those who denied that they were or had been Christians, when they invoked the gods in words dictated by me, offered prayer with incense and wine to your image, which I had ordered to be brought for this purpose together with statues of the gods, and moreover cursed Christ--none of which those who are really Christians, it is said, can be forced to do --these I thought should be discharged. Others named by the informer declared that they were Christians, but then denied it, asserting that they had been but had ceased to be, some three years before, others many years, some as much as twenty-five years. They all worshipped your image and the statues of the gods, and cursed Christ."
But naturally, this isn't the only possibility. In "Gnosticism at Corinth" by Smithals, he proposes that Paul is responding to the dualism of certain gnostic movements which make a distinction and separation between "Jesus" and "Christ" - that the divine spirit of Christ was a separate entity from the human "Jesus", which Christ-spirit entered the human Jesus upon his baptism and departed from him upon death.
And also - some folk couldn't deal with the idea of a humiliated, crucified man as a god-figure.
(Sort of like us in the Way International, lol). Some "cursed" the man "Jesus", but accepted the "Christ" spirit.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
45
26
26
69
Popular Days
Jun 26
28
Jul 3
20
Jun 27
18
Aug 12
17
Top Posters In This Topic
Tom 45 posts
Oakspear 26 posts
T-Bone 26 posts
dancing 69 posts
Popular Days
Jun 26 2006
28 posts
Jul 3 2006
20 posts
Jun 27 2006
18 posts
Aug 12 2006
17 posts
dancing
Ever heard speaking in tougues in english?
To me toungues cease when they are understood.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Goey
Link to comment
Share on other sites
allan w.
I believe that the 'manifestations' are available to every b/a Believer as they (will) to believe to receive and operate them. Why ? Forget about whether VP got it right or wrong, or Stiles or even Joseph Smith for a moment...
IF I were to receive 'word of knowledge' (for example), something I needed to know. Do I then have to wait around for someone else to give me a 'word of wisdom' concerning what to do about it ? What if no-one else was around ? God is going to make me wait til someone else with that (gift) turns up ?
How absurd ! Think about it.
I'll give you an actual example (something I usually can't be bothered doing, but here goes)
When our youngest daughter Leah (some of you GS'ers may remember her in F20) was about 18 months old, Selina and I were at a beach doing a bit of witnessing, enjoying an ice-cream etc...
Selina was sitting about 40 feet away feeding Leah pieces of apple. I had my back turned looking at the water, sitting on the sea wall. As clear as day, God said to me " I will teach you the Word like...just kidding !
God said to me "look at Leahs mouth" (word of knowledge). I looked and it was like God 'zoom lensed' her mouth to me. In her mouth was a wasp on a piece of apple. " God then said "Don't yell out any thing, just run (word of wisdom). I ran over, scooped my finger in her mouth and pulled the apple and the wasp out.
So no matter how much you want to argue and strain at gnats, to me, the manifestations (all nine) are available. To me, the Word of God makes absolute sense, fits like a hand in a glove etc..and I'm sure as hell thankful a man 'plagerised' works to make it known.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
But seriously, it's not straining at gnats when one wants to honestly make sense out of spiritual matters.
In your illustration, God gave you revelation, or information, or whatever you want to call it, when you needed it. You didn't have to will to receive it or anything like that. And who says that that's what Word of Knowledge and Word of Wisdom are anyway? Neither are defined in the bible. One can make suppositions or inferences that such-and-such record is "Word of Knowledge", but then you're circularly making the illustration of the definition fit the definition, which is based on the illustration...
Are you seriously suggesting ("To me, the Word of God makes absolute sense, fits like a hand in a glove etc..and I'm sure as hell thankful a man 'plagerised' works to make it known.") that God couldn't have showed you the wasp and told you what to do about it without PFAL? I doubt that you intend to, but that's the message that your words convey.
From your posts you seem like a guy who accepts what God has to give him, sees signs, miracles and wonders, and lives life in a fairly uncomplicated God-centered lifestyle. But that's not what Vic Wierwille taught. PFAL was all about formulas, and definitions, and putting the minutia of "the Word" before simple love. Heck, he taught for hours in the Advanced Class about distinctions between Word of Knowledge and Word of Wisdom. Who gives a rat's foot? You don't appear to, but this is the guy who you're so thankful for.
Just some semi-random thoughts
Link to comment
Share on other sites
allan w.
I suppose that's a fair assumption of me ! To be honest I myself couldn't/wouldn't be bothered about the 'soup to nuts' methodology of the manifestations either. I thought when LCM went on about the order of the manifestations as laid out in 1 Corinthians, "interpretation of tongues being mentioned last because" etc... I I thought what a bunch of egotistical crap, they're laid out that way because something had to be last !!
But what I will say is this, that I do believe 'working the Word' IS ONE of the 'keys', 'ways' (whatever one wants to call it) to making one more 'perceptive' to the voice of God.
Oaks, this is one of a number of 'things' that happened to me and Selina and (others we know) that demonstrated the hand of God in a manifested way. If it was only a 'one-off' thing, I would put it down to 'lucky' or whatever, I'm not an idiot (although some would disagree) !
But I still believe in the power of God, not just in an ethereal, mysignostic (is that a word ? it just popped into my head) kind of a way, but in a real way that can change and alter our lives and circumstances at any given moment (in a positive way).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Goey
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
I wonder - was it "revelation" in the case of Allan protecting his daughter - or a heightened state of parental instinct? Most parents tend to be in state of high alert when it comes to watching after their very young children. I won't strain a wasp over this - but I thought such worth mentioning.
Danny
Edited by TheInvisibleDanLink to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Link to comment
Share on other sites
allan w.
'heightened parental instinct' ?? Me, ? I just give credit where credit is due !
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
Though I do find Wierwille's explanation of the singular use of "manifestation" without merit, I can see it descriptive of something altogether. Though there is a list of distinct gifts of the Spirit, it is stated "manifestation" because there is no particular distinction of the gifts when there is a "manifestation of the Spirit". To be fair, perhaps that's what Wierwille was getting at, albeit poorly, when he tried to show 'all 9' in use for every miracle or healing. Geez, whadda stretch.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Goey
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
Well tonight when I got out of work, I stopped at the 4-way intersection at the end of the industrial parkway. When the light turned green, I had no inclination to immediately step on the gas. I just sat there a couple seconds, and whoa, dude! a car sped right through the intersection from the other direction, giving no heed to the red light on their side.
Revelation? word of knowledge? word of wisdom? - I wasn't thinking anything man!
No, being crispy around the edges after a long day at work, my brain finally sparked, as I stepped on the gas: "Hmm, how about that. I wonder what's for dinner?"
Danny
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
Not revelation, or word of knowledge or word of wisdom or a sign or a miracle.
Definitely a wonder, though.
"I wonder - was it "revelation" in the case of Allan protecting his daughter - or a heightened state of parental instinct?"
WonderS!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
I haven't figured everything out on the issue of TWI's version of speaking in tongues – but there has been an evolution of how I address the subject. Initially, when I left TWI most of my criteria were anecdotally based – trying to come to some conclusions thinking about my own experiences and those of others I knew in TWI. As time went on, I felt I needed to set some intellectual standards – and thus review the Bible, TWI's doctrine, and my own thinking a little more critically.
In my opinion, TWI's doctrine on speaking in tongues has eclipsed the importance of prayer in our understanding. I feel TWI's version of speaking in tongues is mind numbing [does not engage the intellect], and usually self-centered [directed towards a personal agenda]. It gives a false sense of securing the promises of God, insulates the person from the transforming effect of communion with God [since their mind is not involved in the process], and can lead to self-deception, pride, and hypocrisy. I have listed below a number of points as to why I think TWI's teaching on speaking in tongues is in error.
Some things to consider about Speaking in Tongues, TWI's version of it and Prayer in our Understanding
1. The significant purpose of Speaking in Tongues. I noted this in my previous post [# 71]. In The MacArthur Study Bible on I Corinthians 14, John MacArthur suggests tongues ceased after serving a threefold purpose: a sign to unbelieving Jews , a significant blessing of God building a new nation of Jews and Gentiles [Romans 11:11,12,25-27; Galatians 3:28], and authenticating those who preached the gospel [iI Corinthians 12:12].
2. Decline of Speaking in Tongues after the book of Acts period. The Encyclopedia Britannica notes under Speaking in Tongues "The greatest emphasis upon the gift in the early church was made by followers of the 2nd century prophet Montanus. His excommunication about 177 and the later decline of the sect probably contributed to a climate of opinion unfavorable to speaking in tongues, and the practice declined. During later church history, glossolalia occurred in various groups. In modern times, it occurred during various Protestant revivals in the United States, in the early 20th century." In The MacArthur New Testament Commentary: I Corinthians, John MacArthur states on page 361, "…the gift of tongues has evidently ceased because, since the apostolic age, it has reappeared only spasmodically and questionably throughout nineteen centuries of church history. The gift of tongues is nowhere alluded to or found in any writings of the church Fathers. Clement of Rome wrote a letter to the Corinthian church in the year 95, only about four decades after Paul wrote I Corinthians. In discussing problems in the church, Clement made no mention of tongues. Apparently, both the use and misuse of that gift had ceased. Justin Martyr, the great church Father of the second century, visited many of the churches of his day, yet in his voluminous writings he mentions nothing of tongues. It is not mentioned even among his several lists of spiritual gifts."
3. Different Greek words for "set aside" and "cease". From The NET Bible I Corinthians 13: 8-11, "Love never ends. But if there are prophecies, they will be set aside; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be set aside. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part, but when what is perfect comes, the partial will be set aside. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. But when I became an adult, I set aside childish ways." In the Greek text set aside is katargeo and cease is pauomai.
According to The Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised 1978 Edition by Harold Moulton, The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament Abridged in One Volume by Geoffrey Bromiley, The Word Study Concordance by George Wigram and Ralph Winter and A Basic Grammar of the New Testament by George Aristotle Hadjiantoniou: Katargeo [translated set aside] is passive – meaning something or someone is setting it aside. In the New Testament, this word can mean: to condemn to inactivity, to destroy, to take out of the sphere of activity, to make inoperative. In other words in saying, "prophecies, they will be set aside [katargeo]" either an event or a person is rendering prophecies inoperative. A few other katargeo occurrences: Romans 3:3 "make the faith of God without effect", I Corinthians 1:28 "to bring to naught things that are", I Corinthians 6:13 "God shall destroy both it and them", II Corinthians 3:7 "which glory was to be done away", II Timothy 1:10 "Christ, who hath abolished death."
Pauomai [translated cease] to stop, to come to an end. This word differs from katargeo in that it is in the middle voice – the subject exercises the activity indicated by the verb with special reference to itself. A few other occurrences of pauomai: Luke 11:1 "when he ceased, one of his disciples said", Acts 5:42 "they ceased not to teach and preach", I Peter 3:10 "let him refrain his tongue from evil." In other words, in saying "tongues they will cease [pauomai]" it implies a built-in stopping point.
From the above differences in the Greek words used for set aside and cease – it appears to me there's a difference in how tongues will stop and how prophesy and knowledge will stop. Perhaps it may mean God had a limited "lifespan" built into tongues and after serving their purpose [suggested in point 1] they stopped. Whereas, prophecy and knowledge will someday be rendered inoperative by some event or person – and until such time remain in effect.
4. Spiritual abilities are distributed according to God's discretion. As I mentioned in a previous post [#47] VPW taught that every believer has the ability to operate all nine manifestations suggesting I Corinthians 12:11 "dividing to every man severally as He will" meant as the man wills according to his believing. I disagree, in my opinion the entire chapter emphasizes it is God's prerogative to whom the spiritual abilities are given and that every believer is not given all nine. I think the chapter centers around God's influence - in I Corinthians 12: v.4 "…there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit," v.5 "…varieties of ministries, and the same Lord," v.6 "varieties of effects, but the same God," v.11 "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills" v.13 "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body…all made to drink of one Spirit" v.18 But now God has placed the members…just as He desired" v.24 "…God has so composed the body" v.28 "And God has appointed in the church, first apostles…" It makes me wonder – if God is the one who works all these things – then why do we need a man or a class to teach us about them? Where do you see in I Corinthians 12, 13 and 14 instructions on how to operate the manifestations – I mean how to actually do them? You don't! These chapters reveal how much the Corinthians wigged-out on their charismata! They needed some instruction on God being in charge, doing everything out of love and in a gracious and orderly fashion.
5. The Bible emphasizes we engage our intellect in prayer. A study of prayer in the Bible will often touch upon attitudes and thoughts we're to adopt and to avoid. Matthew 6:5 "…when you pray do not be like the hypocrite." Mark 11:25 "…when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him…" Matthew 6:7 "…when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition, as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words." For the Bible to encourage us to cultivate humility, persistence, trust, forgiveness, sincerity, etc. in prayer necessitates we engage our minds in the process. I think there was a prevalent idea while I was in TWI that you could be out of fellowship, sinning like a trooper – but you could still speak in tongues which is perfect prayer so everything will work out alright anyway. I think true prayer comes from the heart – from way down deep inside our being – what we think about, what we want – a good reason for us to guard our hearts as Proverbs 4:23 says. To "tremble with fear and do not sin! Do some soul-searching as you lie in bed, and repent of your ways!" as Psalms 4:4 The NET Bible puts it.
I think when Scripture encourages us to pray in the Spirit it means we're to make a conscious effort to be in harmony with the Holy Spirit – reflecting on our motivation, thoughts, and behavior as we beseech our Heavenly Father. Psalms 37:4 "Delight yourself in the Lord; And He will give you the desires of your heart." Could be understood two ways: God answers our prayers [the desires of our heart] and He may put desires in our heart. I equate delighting in the Lord as being in step with the Spirit. Ephesians 6:18 "With all prayer and petition [deesis] pray at all times in the Spirit…" The Greek word deesis is supplication, a request, or prayer for specific benefits. That implies the content of my prayers [specific requests] are directed by my mind. It is NOT pressing the S.I.T. button to launch a magical encrypted language that is equivalent to the Star Ship Enterprise's Photon Torpedoes…Didn't VPW in the PFAL class say he hardly ever prayed in his understanding? He believed in the superiority of speaking in tongues. Even in the Corps, I recall how often my mind drifted into daydreaming, worrying or thinking about anything EXCEPT what I was speaking in tongues for - doing the goofy 4 fifteens [yeah, that really kept TWI on the straight and narrow path!].
...Sometimes I think of prayer in my understanding as perhaps a verbal affirmation or agreement with God - that as I speak the words that I know I should say - I am aware of their reproof of some hidden hypocrisy they have flushed out of my heart - my conscious will not shut up! There have been times as I'm praying for something - when all of a sudden it's like a boxer nails me with a round-house punch while my guard is down; I become aware of how unloving I was toward my wife tonight, or lied about something at work. And as I recover from this blow to my ego - I feel a resolve to right that wrong and my prayer switches gears from being a prayer for whatever - to asking the Father for forgiveness, strength and wisdom to draft a plan of action. And how much of all that going on in our hearts is from the Spirit? The Holy Spirit oversees the Word of God. Much of our prayer phrasing comes from the Bible - I imagine the Spirit can make a particular word, phrase or thought sizzle with energy - or heal. Alright, I'm starting to sound like the sappy Eternity commercials "I don't know where I end and the Spirit begins." Better move on to point 6.
6. The essence of prayer is communion and partnership with God. The thrust of our Lord's teaching on prayer in Matthew 6:8-13 focuses our attention on the person of our Heavenly Father, His purpose and will, His sufficiency for us, His forgiveness, His guidance, His deliverance, His kingdom, power and glory. Point 5 is the process of prayer – point 6 is the object of our prayer. The object of our prayer should be God, His purpose, His will, His glory – not the thing we're praying for, not our own agenda. I think of Paul praying to God three times about his thorn in the flesh – the solution wasn't in Paul's prayers – but in God's strength! If prayer is to be such an integral part of our lives maybe it means any situation in life can be an opportunity to commune with our Heavenly Father, becoming an impromptu prayer/fellowship with Him. When I think of Psalms I think of the spiritually vibrant rapport the writers seem to possess with God – God Almighty – Creator of the Universe! Amid their confessions of doubt, frustration, sin, failures, disappointments – there's still some sort of indescribable tether, some connection, some partnership between the Creator and the creature. Yes, I believe we are fallen creatures - and that's why I'm amazed that God still wants us to approach Him – to hang out with Him – to confide in Him – to trust Him - and of all things to LOVE Him - He wants MY love!
7. TWI's pride with the manifestations overshadowed Christian love. I think I Corinthians 13, the chapter on love, sets the top priority for every Christian – a priority ignored by TWI. This is just my opinion – but try reading some of the My Story or By the Way threads. Note the frequent occurrence of leadership coming down on a believer because God showed them how screwed up they were and needed the beating of the week. When I was in Corps training – I got to see first hand the utter conceit of the top leadership of TWI – as they would speak with such hatred and disdain about any Christian group outside TWI, who didn't speak in tongues or operate the other manifestations according to their standards. Without the governing influence of love – our selfish egos become maniacal bulldozers plowing aside anyone who gets caught in the cross-hairs of our "in-depth spiritual perception and awareness." Jesus summed up the whole point of God's moral law – LOVE for God and your neighbor. I don't recall in the gospels Jesus conducting a bunch of "practice sessions" on the revelation or power manifestations with His disciples; or teaching the "Advanced Class" on them. He sure did teach a lot about love – oh uh – verbally too, besides His example!
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
allan w.
Thanks for your opinion.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
bliss
TBone!!!
I think there is a position for you in the Grease Spot Research Department.
Thanks.
"...Sometimes I think of prayer in my understanding as perhaps a verbal affirmation or agreement with God - that as I speak the words that I know I should say - I am aware of their reproof of some hidden hypocrisy they have flushed out of my heart - my conscious will not shut up!"
Exactly my point. I have spoke it tongues so much, that I felt prayer with my understanding was inferior. Therefore, now that I am, really talking and hearing my prayers, I am readily aware of my faults, my problems, and what I need to address immediately. Back in SIT much days, I don't think I asked for true forgiveness for anything. It should be DAILY! I never learned to ask for forgiveness daily. Weird.
I now teach my kids this. After 8 years of children's fellowship and countless nightime prayers!!!
I am so disappointed. Now I at least can make up for it. I share with them to:
"P" raise GOD- "God you are wonderful, you are the one who gives us strength. You are my provider......"
"R" EPENTANCE- daily CONFESSION TIME , yes, I always missed this one.
"A" cknowledgement- I acknowledge His right to rule and reign in my life. THIS IS THE "THANK YOU TIME"!
"I" ntersession- Pray for others!
"S"upplication- NOW I pray for myself.
"E" quipping- Ask Him to equip me in every way for a victorious day. Give me eyes that I may see HIM and Ears that hear Him today.
This is just the tip of the iceburg of what I have been learning since leaving the bondage and selfishness of the Way.
I love it. I finally have a RELATIONSHIP with my Lord and God.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dancing
1 Corinthians 14
1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
but unto God-speaking to God...hmmmm would that be the God in christ in you?
3But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
edifieth himself-certainly the one speaking in tougueshas God within
5I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
edifying-the whole point
6Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
this tells me to walk by the spirit and know when to speak in tougues
7And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
8For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
9So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
10There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
11Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
12Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
both within and without
13Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
14For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
16Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
17For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
18I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
19Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
yeah...be wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove
20Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
understanding the tougues, growing from a child to a man
21In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
26How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
27If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
28But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
if there be no interpreter-no one will hear and understand
29Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
30If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
31For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
32And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
34Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
Let your women keep silence in the churches-speaking of the spirit and controling it's toungue
35And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
ask their husbands at home-Christ
36What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
Amen
39Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40Let all things be done decently and in order.
My comments and understanding to date....are in bold.
Edited by dancingLink to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
I was driving down the road today, on my way to the local supermarket to pick up some corn-on-the-cob for my backyard barbecue, when, upon turning onto route 66, I beheld a tag sale.
Lo and behold, my super-telescopic vision zoomed upon two large, audio-looking console cabinets amidst the tag sale clutter. I was overwhelmed with the compulsion to turn around and check it out!
Wow. It was an old late 50s-early 60s Magnavox tube-amp stereophonic, high-fidelity phonograph system, comprised of two large cabinets within which are mounted two, monster 15 inch woofers.
Yep, I bought it, and proceeded to barely squeeze both huge cabinets into the backseat of my 98 Plymouth Neon.
Total price paid for this vintage, Magnavox, high-fidelity, stereophonic tube amp with ancient phonograph?
$5.
The experience of dragging this thing into my garage, sweeping out the dust-bunnies, plugging it in and watching the warm orange glow of those tubes come to life?
Priceless.
My wife's going to freak when she walks into the garage (lol).
Danny
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
Danny, this sounds like a wonderful thing, but I'm wondering - okay, I'll bite (why do I feel like I'm going to regret this question?), what does this have to do with the doctrine of speaking in tongues?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
(lol). Well let me just say this, Tom, that the singing-of-tongues on my vinyl copy of Faure's "Requiem" -especially when experienced through the wondrous clarity of tube-amp sound - I'm going to find extremely edifying indeed.
:)
Danny
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
Lest I derail further, let me offer some thoughts recently on the topic.
I'm almost convinced that there isn't one letter attributed to the apostle Paul that predates the second century. They were all IMO composed at the beginning of the 2nd century.
The more I read them, the more they reflect - in my view - the environs of the second century rather than the first.
Lets take for example 1 Cor.12:1-3:
Now Wierwille taught that "speaking by the spirit of God" = speaking in tongues, but I think Pliny (circ.110 AD), from Pliny to the Emperor Trajan (Pliny, Letters 10.96-97) exhibits (in my view, at least) a far more compelling reason for why this passage is there, in relation to a certain interrogation practice employed by rulers to get Christians to disown their faith:
But naturally, this isn't the only possibility. In "Gnosticism at Corinth" by Smithals, he proposes that Paul is responding to the dualism of certain gnostic movements which make a distinction and separation between "Jesus" and "Christ" - that the divine spirit of Christ was a separate entity from the human "Jesus", which Christ-spirit entered the human Jesus upon his baptism and departed from him upon death.
And also - some folk couldn't deal with the idea of a humiliated, crucified man as a god-figure.
(Sort of like us in the Way International, lol). Some "cursed" the man "Jesus", but accepted the "Christ" spirit.
Danny
Edited by TheInvisibleDanLink to comment
Share on other sites
dancing
Most excellent post Danny,
Man where my mind goes from here!
Cursed is every one who hangs on a tree.
The curse of the Law.
Jesus dieing, Christ dieing.
Doubt if gsc could hold it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Goey
What's that supposed to mean Clay? To whom are you referring? ... GSC as a whole or certain individuals?
May I kindly point out that it is not GSC's purpose to "hold" to any particular doctrine, concept or teaching.
Edited by GoeyLink to comment
Share on other sites
dancing
sheesh, just a general statement goey.
Like all the books in the world couldn't hold it like it says in John.
Get so defensive, lighten up. Gsc is a forum with words.
The mind is the only thing that can hold "it".
Everyone is ready to pull a gun or a something around here.
Really beginning to suck.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.