In light of the Interfaith Dialogue Discussion

[Abigail]

I can't quote the link to the article, because I don't know where it is - I get them in my email. So I will give credit where credit is due and try not to cut and paste too much of it.

It is by Rabbi Pinchas Winston and Torah.org and is titled:

SHLACH

The Forest and the Trees

"However, the level of Torah that we possess is the product of the

second set of tablets that Moshe descended with eighty days later, after the

Jewish people were finally forgiven for their involvement with the

golden calf. Those tablets had not been carved out by G-d, but only written on

by G-d, and therefore they lacked much of the holiness that the first set

of tablets contained. . ."

"The essential difference between the two levels of Torah is this:

However, after the children of Israel did not merit the First Tablets

that were broken, they were given the Second Tablets . . . . in them

are the Negative Mitzvos, all of which are for the sake of protecting

them and to distance them from impurity and zuhama, which is death, and that

is the Torah we have now.

Thus, it speaks of the forbidden and

permissible, impure and pure, guilty and innocent, profane and holy, sin .......

It is a combination of right and left,, and life and death, as it says,

“Behold, I place before you this day life and good, death and evil . . .” (Devarim 30:15).

Hence, with this level of Torah there is no guarantee that one will automatically be elevated; rather derech

eretz must precede it to make sure that the person knows how to extract

the “good” and use it to improve himself and his clarity of G-d.

Indeed, a person lacking the proper “derech eretz” can easily use Torah

as a source of rationalization to ultimately avoid that which the Torah

requires. . . . Perhaps the most dangerous attitude a Jew can develop is one that assumes that just

learning Torah will keep him on the straight-and-narrow, when time-and-time-again we have seen that this is not necessarily so. In fact, a person can come to use Torah to avoid seeing the very thing that the Torah was given in order to help us see.

Hence, and this is the crucial point: the Spies rejected Eretz Yisroel

based upon Torah, at least as they saw it. Yehoshua and Caleiv accepted

Torah based upon Torah, as they learned it. Incredibly, here were two

very diverse opinions based upon a single Torah,

For, how many people really know what the Torah Ultimately wants from

us? We throw terms around like, “fear G-d,” and “perfect character traits,”

but many times at the end of the day, these terms and others like them

come out so different through the subjective ideas of the individual.

Therefore, each and every one of us have to ask ourselves, when

confronting a situation that, by Torah standards is controversial, “Am

I using Torah as an excuse to avoid the issue that Torah really wants me

to confront? Am I relying upon a majority to that which I ought not to, or

not relying on one that I ought to, one that is not the kind of

majority Heaven relies upon?”

Bold added by me, obviously.

I guess what struck me about this was the documentation that even in Biblical times, people had some different understandings of what the Torah said, or how to apply what the Torah said. You may not get that completely out of what I quoted - it was a long article.

The other thing that struck me was the importance of considering what others had to say regarding spiritual matters, but also to be honest about looking within yourself to see if you are rationalizing or justifying.

[dancing]

Very cool Abigail,

Yeah, I bet many a mind has enjoyed discussing spiritual things.

I think somehow that's why he God enjoys it when we get together.

Shoot how can anyone believe all of the same things at the same time anyway.

That's what makes it so cool to interact.

Another fine day on the planet!

Have a good one Abigail!

[dancing]

With no TV or internet not much to do but talk around the campfires!!

I guess my screen could be considered a little campfire :)

[Bramble]

Indeed, a person lacking the proper “derech eretz” can easily use Torah

as a source of rationalization to ultimately avoid that which the Torah

requires. . . . Perhaps the most dangerous attitude a Jew can develop is one that assumes that just

learning Torah will keep him on the straight-and-narrow, when time-and-time-again we have seen that this is not necessarily so. In fact, a person can come to use Torah to avoid seeing the very thing that the Torah was given in order to help us see.

I found this an intersting observation in light of my TWI experiences.

[Abigail]

Clay,

I like the notion of the computer being the substitute for the campfire. The cool thing about that is that we have a much more diverse group of people we can converse with this way! In the Jewish religion, discussion and debate about Torah is very much encouraged.

Bramble,

I definitely hear you on that one!

[allan w.]

personally speaking, a group of people that hold onto Jewish beliefs that were so 'blinded' that they murdered their own savior doesn't do much for me !! (imho)

[allan w.]

And why do you have a problem writing G-O-D. If it's a religious problem, try writing something like, oh, I don't know...Abba Father, or Dad ??

Note : this is not an 'attack' (before you start screaming) but just something i disagree with 'strongly' (as outlined in the GSC manual )

[Abigail]

Allan,

Having studied Judaism has given me a far deeper understanding of Jesus and his teachings that you will ever begin to get out of PFAL.

And I have no issues with writing the word God. What you were reading as G-d, were quotes from an article. However, I know many Christians and Jews alike who won't write it, and I respect their beliefs regardless of whether or not I hold them as my own.

Edited June 22, 2006 by Abigail

[Oakspear]

personally speaking, a group of people that hold onto Jewish beliefs that were so 'blinded' that they murdered their own savior doesn't do much for me !! (imho)

The people who wrote the article didn't kill their "savior", nor did any modern Jews.

[allan w.]

And I'm sure they won't make the same mistake twice !!

[year2027]

God first

Beloved Abigail

God loves you my dear friend

I love reading books like the Torah but I have not read it all yet

What a great verse (“Behold, I place before you this day life and good, death and evil . . .” (Devarim 30:15))

Yes we have life place before us

1. the life we live in the womb

2. the life we are living now breath life of the soul

3. the life we will live as god of lights when we put on our new spiritual body

Yes we have good place before us

1. the good we received while in the womb of our mom's

2. the good we are living in the flesh

3. the good we will be in the spiritual realm

Yes we have death place before us

1 the death of growth life in the womb when we moved to breath life

2. the death of breath life when we move to spiritual life

3. the death we will no longer see

Yes we have evil place before us

1. the evil our mom's do while we are in the womb

2. the evil we do on this earth

3. the evil we have overcome

What we can learn just from one little verse

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

[Oakspear]

And I'm sure they won't make the same mistake twice !!

the point was that they didn't make it once. The folks who killed Jesus, assuming that the gospels are accurate, lived about 2000 years ago.

[allan w.]

Hypothetically though, if Jesus turned up in Jerusalem today with the same message, what do you think MIGHT happen ?

[ChasUFarley]

Okay, educate me here, please....

I thought the Torah was a collection of books and that it was basically like the Old Testament. True?

What does “derech eretz” mean?

And you say: "And I have no issues with writing the word God. What you were reading as G-d, were quotes from an article. However, I know many Christians and Jews alike who won't write it, and I respect their beliefs regardless of whether or not I hold them as my own." Why is it that they won't write God?

And Abigail says: "Having studied Judaism has given me a far deeper understanding of Jesus and his teachings that you will ever begin to get out of PFAL." Would you please elaborate on this?

Finally, Allen says: "Hypothetically though, if Jesus turned up in Jerusalem today with the same message, what do you think MIGHT happen ?" Well, what do YOU think would happen? I'm not sure where you're going with this one, as Jerusalem today certainly isn't what it was 2000 years ago. It's an even rougher neighbourhood, ya know....

Shalom!

[Abigail]

"I thought the Torah was a collection of books and that it was basically like the Old Testament. True? "

Correct. In addition to the Torah there is the Talmud which contains Rabbinical discussions and debates regarding the meaning of the verses in the Torah. I find the entire concept of the Talmud interesting and unique (in comparisson to many religions) in that it goes back to the concept that Jews do not necessarily all believe the same thing, nor are the required to. It is the traditions which hold us together more than anything. There is a saying within Judaism, "Every family must set their own table." The idea being that everyone is responsible to study and decide for themselves. Debating amongs each other (in a positive way - not angry and nasty) is also a huge part of that process.

derech eretz means knowledge of the natural world and/or society. It can also mean appropriate behavior and good character.

"Why is it that they won't write God?"

For some it is a sign of reverence and respect. In Judaism, one is not supposed to destroy or deface a holy thing or a name of God. Therefore, many will not write it for concern that the paper may become torn or otherwise defaced.

"Abigail says: "Having studied Judaism has given me a far deeper understanding of Jesus and his teachings that you will ever begin to get out of PFAL." Would you please elaborate on this?

I would preface this response by being clear that my only real experience (if you can call it real - lol) with Christianity was while in TWI.

That could be several threads unto itself, Chas. When one studies Kabbalah, it becomes very clear that Jesus was very well versed in it. Kabbalah is the mystical side of Judaism. In olden times, and even among many orthodox jews today, only men who were very well versed in Torah were allowed to study Kabbalah. The advent of the internet has changed that. Also, the Chassidic Jews are very open about sharing Kabbalah teachings.

The first section of John chapter 1 - In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God . . . is simply a different wording of the explanation of creation from Kabbalah.

In a sense, I believe Jesus was the living Kabbalah - he lived it like no one in documented history, he also taught it. It is the essence of all of his teachings. He was truly the living example of what we too can ascend to, if we desire.

But I think one of the big differences I have with Christianity, in this regard, is that Christianity seems to teach we cannot ascend to that level until Christ returns, while I believe it is possible here and now.

Here's an example, but I make no promises that it will make sense to you:

There are a number of references in the Bible to God having loved Jesus since before the creation of the world. In TWI we were taught this was a figure of speach in reference to God's foreknowledge. I no longer believe that. I believe that all of us were very much alive in a spiritual form before we were given our earthly bodies and is documented in the Bible and the Kabbalah.

The concept of being "born again", which Jesus taught - well you understand what we were taught about that by TWI. I believe that being "born again" isn't about "confessing jesus", nor is it only for those who are Christians. Being born again is about ascending, it is a spiritual rebirth, a reaching upward to enlightenment. I know I am not explaining it well - I simply do not have the words.

BUT it says in John 3:10 [Jesus speaking to Nicodemus]

"You are Israel's teacher", said Jesus, "and you do not understand these things"

The context is being born again. Jesus was frustrated that Nicodemus did not already understand the concept of being born again. Why? because it is taught in the Kabbalah.

In TWI we were taught that the "son of man" was a reference to Jesus.

I believe we are ALL sons of man .

wanna start another thread or two? :D

[ChasUFarley]

Okay, thanks for the thoughtful response - I openly admit that I know little/nothing about this - but that's not to say that I'm not willing to.

In response to your response, I have more questions, of course... (not to be pesky... but if you're happy to entertain my questions, I do appreciate it and do read your reponses....)

You said: "Kabbalah is the mystical side of Judaism." Isn't this what Madonna and many other stars are into these days? I've read up on this a little and it seems to be full of, what I consider, ritual and supersticions. I mean, they even have rules about what days of the week and times of day they can have sex, really. Anyhow, how does this figure in with the cannon of the Old Testament or the Torah? It seems like it wouldn't line up, from what I know from the Book of Leviticus, even.

This next paragraph is just a comment by me:

You said: There are a number of references in the Bible to God having loved Jesus since before the creation of the world. In TWI we were taught this was a figure of speach in reference to God's foreknowledge. I no longer believe that. I believe that all of us were very much alive in a spiritual form before we were given our earthly bodies and is documented in the Bible and the Kabbalah. Actually, several religions believe this, even LDS.

And finally,

You wrote: The concept of being "born again", which Jesus taught - well you understand what we were taught about that by TWI. I believe that being "born again" isn't about "confessing jesus", nor is it only for those who are Christians. Being born again is about ascending, it is a spiritual rebirth, a reaching upward to enlightenment. I know I am not explaining it well - I simply do not have the words.

But since they don't believe in the Hope, then are you saying that you also no longer believe in the Hope? Because by taking this logic of believing that those who aren't Christian can be "born again", as I understand it - in a life on this earth - you are saying that you do not believe in a resurrection or a Hope of Christ's return.... correct?

Just curious - I don't mean to sound judgemental. Please don't assume that's what's going on here - I still subscribe to what I was taught in PFAL, BUT I certainly try to understand and absolutely respect other people's choices. I start by admitting what I know, and what I don't know... then asking questions and reading...

Many thanks!

[Oakspear]

Hypothetically though, if Jesus turned up in Jerusalem today with the same message, what do you think MIGHT happen ?

Probably the same thing that would happen in Cleveland, or Aukland, or London...indifference. I doubt the Christians would listen to him any more than the Jews.

"I thought the Torah was a collection of books and that it was basically like the Old Testament. True? "

Correct. In addition to the Torah there is the Talmud...

Torah is Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers & Deuternomy. The other parts of what we call the Old Testament are categorized into the prophets and the kethubim (other stuff)...at least that's what I thought

[Abigail]

Exactly, Oak.

Chas,

"You said: "Kabbalah is the mystical side of Judaism." Isn't this what Madonna and many other stars are into these days? I've read up on this a little and it seems to be full of, what I consider, ritual and supersticions. I mean, they even have rules about what days of the week and times of day they can have sex, really. Anyhow, how does this figure in with the cannon of the Old Testament or the Torah? It seems like it wouldn't line up, from what I know from the Book of Leviticus, even. "

No, it is not the same thing as what Madonna is into, that would be akin to saying TWI is the same as what the protestants are into. The REAL Kabbalah is not taro cards and palm reading either. A better explanation would be similar to what we were taught in TWI about various books in the O.T., about how one gave the physical explanation and one the spiritual. That is Torah and Kabbalah.

Yes, there are many rituals and supersticions that are practiced among various sects of Jews, though I am not familiar with the "rules about sex on certain days of the week", beyond that it is considered a miztvoh (sort of like a good deed) to make love on the sabbath.

Anyway, there are also many Jews who do not practice all sorts of rituals and supersticions. As there is great diversity within Christianity, so there is with Judaism. I am not into ritual for ritual's sake, beyond passing down some simple traditions as part of my children's heritage. Generally, in my opinion, a ritual is to remind us of something important, otherwise, what is the point? For example, we light the candles on Friday's, mostly in the winter and not often in the summer, because we are busy doing summer things and the candles just don't seem to blend well with the hot dogs and hamburgers - lol. I enjoy and agree with many of the teachings and philosophies of the Chassidic Jews and I see benefit in many of their rituals and to soem extent, even their strict practice, but I am not now, nor am I likely ever going to be disciplined enough to live my life like that. And that is okay with me.

"You wrote: The concept of being "born again", which Jesus taught - well you understand what we were taught about that by TWI. I believe that being "born again" isn't about "confessing jesus", nor is it only for those who are Christians. Being born again is about ascending, it is a spiritual rebirth, a reaching upward to enlightenment. I know I am not explaining it well - I simply do not have the words.

But since they don't believe in the Hope, then are you saying that you also no longer believe in the Hope? Because by taking this logic of believing that those who aren't Christian can be "born again", as I understand it - in a life on this earth - you are saying that you do not believe in a resurrection or a Hope of Christ's return.... correct? "

Ah, but the Jews do believe in the Hope, just not exactly in the same way as Christians. For the Jews, the Hope is the coming of the Messiah, just as for Christians the Hope is for the coming of the Messiah. The difference is that the Christians believe it will be a "second coming" and the Jews do not. Beyond that, both believe that the world will be restored to a paradise when this event takes place. As for the resurrection part, I am not entirely sure what I believe with regards to that. I guess I am not convinced that when we die we "sleep" til Christ returns. I believe that when we die, it is only our physical body that is dead and not our spiritual one. What happens to our spiritual body - where it goes, I am not certain of. Nor, in truth, do I spend much time dwelling on it. For me, there is enough on my plate in the here and now and regardless of whatever I believe, what happens after I die will be what happens. There simply is no way to know for certain until it occurs.

"Just curious - I don't mean to sound judgemental. Please don't assume that's what's going on here - I still subscribe to what I was taught in PFAL, BUT I certainly try to understand and absolutely respect other people's choices. "

You aren't coming across at all judgemental. I assume you are simply curious, and I think that is a good thing. I think there is much most people don't know about Judaism, and much that people think they know, which is inaccurate, or at best, only partially right.

And no, I don't mind answering any questions. Doing so not only helps remove some of the mystery (which can lead to fear), but it helps me rethink what I believe and why. :)

Edited June 25, 2006 by Abigail

[allan w.]

I know whatever I say will come across as 'judgemental' but what the heck...So, the Jews are still waiting for the Messiah to come the first time ?

Was Jesus of Nazareth their messiah or do they look for another ?

Was Jesus Gods' only begotten son ?

(somehow i know what the answers will be, but you might surprise me ? ! )

[Sushi]

****posted by ABIGAIL**** oooops

Allan, yes most Jews are still waiting for the first coming of the Messiah. There are some who do believe Jesus was the Messiah, they are known as Messianic Jews. However, many Jews believe that Jesus was a great prophet and teacher. That is the category I fall into.

So, in sum, that would mean that the larger number of Jews do not believe Jesus was the only begotten son of God. But roughly that same number would believe that we are ALL sons of God.

But, as Sushi says, ask 5 Jews a question and you will likely get at least six different answers. As I said earlier in this thread, there is a great diversity of opinion and belief among Jewish people.

Edited June 25, 2006 by Sushi

[markomalley]

****posted by ABIGAIL**** oooops

You two ever think about unchecking the "remember me" box in the logon screen?

It would seem that this would help reduce the problem...

(no offense)

[ChasUFarley]

Thanks again for putting up with my questions - I find this all very interesting, because I thought it would be more of an OPPOSITE of what I believe, as a born-again Christian. I'm finding it's not, overall, but that there are some nuanaces that are different... so.....

"Allan, yes most Jews are still waiting for the first coming of the Messiah. There are some who do believe Jesus was the Messiah, they are known as Messianic Jews. However, many Jews believe that Jesus was a great prophet and teacher. That is the category I fall into."

But you speak in tongues still, don't you? I think I read on another thread you wrote about it.... So, how do you believe that Jesus was a just prophet and teacher if you manifest holy spirit?

And is it true, as VPW taught, that they are looking mainly for a miliary leader/messiah?

Thanks for you patience - this is all very interesting....

[Abigail]

Mark - we have two computers, one upstairs and one down. USUALLY I use the computer downstairs and Sushi uses the one up, with one exception, in the morning when I am having my first cup of coffee

Chas,

Regarding speaking in tongues, yeah I did while in TWI, but whether that was something genuine I have serious serious doubts about. Sometimes I will still do it, yes, but not as a form of prayer. It is more like a form of meditation to clear my mind when I am having trouble sleeping.

As for the military aspect as VPW taught, I don't have an answer to that as I have not studied it much. But based on the little I do know and based on my overall understanding of Judaism I would say that some may see it that way and some may not. Personally, I have no solid idea of what will occur when those days come, other than I believe that when all is said and done there will be a form of paradise again.

[allan w.]

Abi...so you continue to s.i.t. even though you doubt it's authenticity ?

That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense ? Why would you want to continue with something you felt was not genuine. ?

May I submit to you that it is one of those things that you cannot reconcile with your current belief ?

I'm glad it helps you sleep, after all, one of the benefits of s.i.t. is 'rest to the soul' !!

(And I believe you're born-again)...so there !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[GarthP2000]

... or perhaps she finds benefits in other areas, y'think? And does it for other reasons that VPW outlined? Even if she doesn't believe that its supernatural?