In this case, oldies is right, at least concerning what Mr. Wierwille taught. I can see how people could have taken it the way you remember, McCarroll, considering the emphasis placed on 'tawkin' in tongues' in Piffle.
To me it matters not what kind of education Wierwille had. It does matter to me that he was deliberately deceptive concerning his "ThD", implying Pikes Peak was something nobler than a degree mill. Regardless his education, his teaching showed remarkable lack of scholarship, especially considering the claims to accuracy & Biblical research.
My recollections of what TWI taught was that SIT was the evidence you were saved, not the prerequisite, or the "way to get saved." IMHO, I was most likely "saved" long before I even heard of SIT.
You have my attention. Do you know the reason why? Perhaps to sit at the feet of a successful "schoolmaster" in preparation and hopes of running his own school?
Your probably not very far off the mark on that one. According to the pamphlet "The Teacher" (a freebie booklet given to those who attended the ROA in 1985 - the year VPW passed away) the principles of education he learned from Dr. Lininger became a vital part of the teaching methods found in PFAL, the Way Corps and other academic activities of TWI.
I don't know if that reason alone would have been why he decided to attend Pikes Peak over Oxford University. I think that very likely there were other obvious reasons why he did, of which we may never know.
While Wierwille never taught that SIT was a prerequisite for salvation, there were always people who drew their own conclusions; not Wierwille's fault.
According to the pamphlet "The Teacher" (a freebie booklet given to those who attended the ROA in 1985 - the year VPW passed away) the principles of education he learned from Dr. Lininger became a vital part of the teaching methods found in PFAL, the Way Corps and other academic activities of TWI.
I don't know if that reason alone would have been why he decided to attend Pikes Peak over Oxford University. I think that very likely there were other obvious reasons why he did, of which we may never know.
This is what I was lead to believe but I have a hard time believing it. Maybe the corpse training but all TWI class methods were modeled after the foundation PFAL class and the PFAL class was modeled after JE Stiles’ and BG Leonard’s classes. Not sure how all of this fits into a time line. But it seams like VP studied at Pikes Peak for a quick PhD. I believe, if I am not wrong. that Pikes Peak was after Stiles’ and Leonard’s classes? The training methods for the corpse program may be different. However, those didn’t start until the early 70s. Long after Pikes Peak.
It always seemed to me that VPW hammered pretty hard on the fact that the scriptures are of no private interpretation unless it was his own PI. Then he'd preface his "revelation" with some gobbledegook about "if you'd really study it and get into the depth of the Word, blah, blah blah, you'd see...." Then he'd come out of left field with some cockamamie bunch of crap that was opposite what biblical scholars have come up with for the past 2,000 years. How frustrating it must have been for God to have had no one listening to Him for such a long time before His anointed VP showed up to really speak for Him.
Even his schtick about SIT being the outward manifestation of being born again was, IMHO, PI.
I too have my doubts as to which people actually heard what whilst (supposedly) in twi. It seems the 'newer' people to join GSC either 'don't know', have 'forgotten', or are 'confused' as to what was actually taught there. Hmmmm.......
I think we are forgetting the one main word in these debates. "perspective"
What Oldies says is right, ONLY in a sense of what was written/spoke by Wierwille.
MCarrol is right, ONLY in a sense of what was implied/practiced/internallized/applied. Especially in the 90's.
Some of you who are from the "oldWay" days, (no offence), have NO IDEA what twisting and the manipulating went on with what was from PFAL let alone just scripture. OR the yelling screaming, fear tactics that were in our face everyday.
Those who weren't around for the free love Koombaya fellowships around "what you thought" was God's word, have NO IDEA how nice the Way could have been at one time, or even what "really" came out of that mans mouth.
So lets give eachother a break when it comes to our perspective please. It really does shed light and makes a difference when we are discussing things.
I too have my doubts as to which people actually heard what whilst (supposedly) in twi. It seems the 'newer' people to join GSC either 'don't know', have 'forgotten', or are 'confused' as to what was actually taught there. Hmmmm.......
Don't know how it was south of the equator, Allan, but up here, frequently "leaders" would take off on their own side road, which may or may not have been what Wierwille actually taught. Wierwille himself was also not totally consistant with what he said.
Seems like you're implying that some folks here weren't actually in TWI. Some weren't, most were. I don't understand why you feel that it is incredible that people who were in an organization that spanned the globe, and was different in character from one decade or one MOG to the next might disagree on what went on while in it.
Hmmm...really? I was under the impression that TWI taught that if you didnt SIT, you weren't saved. I ran many classes and that is what we were told. \\MC
Coming from twi 1 -- I've ALWAYS heard that SIT was evidence (proof) of salvation,
but --- NOT a necessary thing, FOR salvation.
I've got a buncha tapes here with docvic teaching,
and I'm sure he's touched on this subject on them,
and I'm NOT going to dig through them all to find quotes --
But (if I recollect correct),
he never did say that you had to speak in tongues to be born again.
And since most of were not linguists, we could never really be sure we or anyone else was actually speaking in tongues. So we all played along and hoped we were right after all.
I was sure, and still am, that I was speaking in tongues.
The gift of tongues is not linguistic ability. It is not the comprehension of languages. It is not the ability to yell, scream, or make hideous noises.
As I recall, the pressure to SIT was so great that many (everybody IMHO but that's another topic and I've raised it before here and at waydale) faked it. It indeed was said, early on, that you could be saved without SIT but over time almost no one fit into the catagory of "saved but doesn't SIT". So in "understanding" or as an unwritten rule, if you didn't SIT you weren't saved.
It was certainly considered a failure for the class leader if everyone didn't SIT. People were reamed for it.
On another note that site about TWI had this interesting quote about homosexuality:
"Also in 1994, President Martindale blamed the concentration of "practicing homosexuals" in the leadership Corps on "the homo logic" present in many Corps members. He criticized them for their lack of passion "about the truth of God's Word -- God's holy, magnificent Word -- as it stands totally against homosexuality in any form or fashion." 2 In a letter to Corps members, he implied that gays were no longer permitted to remain in the leadership Corps. However, if they honestly sought help for their condition, they could still "be a part of Way Ministry fellowships." Gays and lesbians were given biblical teaching about homosexuality, direct confrontation, and help to cure them of their behavior.
They were expected to convert from homosexuality to heterosexuality; they were not allowed to remain celibate gays and lesbians with homosexual fantasies."
I was long gone by then. How accurate is this statement?
I ask because it seems to me that celibacy is a very Christian lifestyle (for the unmarried) This statement basicly says that you have to be hetrosexually active if you were once gay or you'll be kicked out.
What kind of church kicks people out for NOT having sex?
I knew someone who was classified a "celibate" homosexual. He had been gay, changed once he got in twi. He later got reamed terribly because they said he was still a homo fantasizer (WHATEVER!!!!). It hurt him a lot. He was a pillar in our area and a very nice man. It was horrible to see him treated that way.
I knew someone who was classified a "celibate" homosexual. He had been gay, changed once he got in twi. He later got reamed terribly because they said he was still a homo fantasizer (WHATEVER!!!!). It hurt him a lot. He was a pillar in our area and a very nice man. It was horrible to see him treated that way.
A homo fantasizer! Oh my GOD, how funny that is to hear today! Reminds me of a lady I knew that was m & a'd over accusations of being a "homo sympathizer!" Lcm called her a "fag hag." Part of why she got kicked out was for supposedly missing that I was secretly a homo!
Oh man, I just had a fresh glass of iced soda and sat down for a relaxing time at the Cafe - now I had to clean my monitor screen! But it was worth it!
Some of you who are from the "oldWay" days, (no offence), have NO IDEA what twisting and the manipulating went on with what was from PFAL let alone just scripture. OR the yelling screaming, fear tactics that were in our face everyday.
"no offence"...and noe taken here. I am one of those oldies, if you consider last in at the end of 1979 old enough. And I am aware that there were great changes in daily TWI life after that time. From my start on Waydale in 1999 I have tried to learn more about what happened after (and during) my time. As far as SIT being evidence of and not a requirement for salvation, that was pretty clear in PFAL, and I don't recall it being taught otherwise by anyone...in my time. But I would certainly be interested in when and by whom it was taught that you can't be saved if you don't SIT.
Which reminds me of a story, that I must have told here before.
I had a Boy George poster in my room in Rome City. I put it up to be a wise foot, alghough I was a fan of the music. I just wanted to ruffle feathers as I hated being there and was feeling abused. It was a lash out.
Well, much to my dismay, Bob Moneyhands woke me up at 3 AM to rebuke the homo spirit from me. Cured me good. I now own the Culture Club box set and every record on vinyl and , as always was the case, I like girls.
Thanks for nothing Bob, you're so in tune and deep!
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TheEvan
In this case, oldies is right, at least concerning what Mr. Wierwille taught. I can see how people could have taken it the way you remember, McCarroll, considering the emphasis placed on 'tawkin' in tongues' in Piffle.
To me it matters not what kind of education Wierwille had. It does matter to me that he was deliberately deceptive concerning his "ThD", implying Pikes Peak was something nobler than a degree mill. Regardless his education, his teaching showed remarkable lack of scholarship, especially considering the claims to accuracy & Biblical research.
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Peruser
Just had to put my own $0.02 in to this mix.
My recollections of what TWI taught was that SIT was the evidence you were saved, not the prerequisite, or the "way to get saved." IMHO, I was most likely "saved" long before I even heard of SIT.
:)
per
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What The Hey
Your probably not very far off the mark on that one. According to the pamphlet "The Teacher" (a freebie booklet given to those who attended the ROA in 1985 - the year VPW passed away) the principles of education he learned from Dr. Lininger became a vital part of the teaching methods found in PFAL, the Way Corps and other academic activities of TWI.
I don't know if that reason alone would have been why he decided to attend Pikes Peak over Oxford University. I think that very likely there were other obvious reasons why he did, of which we may never know.
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Oakspear
While Wierwille never taught that SIT was a prerequisite for salvation, there were always people who drew their own conclusions; not Wierwille's fault.
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MountainTopCO
This is what I was lead to believe but I have a hard time believing it. Maybe the corpse training but all TWI class methods were modeled after the foundation PFAL class and the PFAL class was modeled after JE Stiles’ and BG Leonard’s classes. Not sure how all of this fits into a time line. But it seams like VP studied at Pikes Peak for a quick PhD. I believe, if I am not wrong. that Pikes Peak was after Stiles’ and Leonard’s classes? The training methods for the corpse program may be different. However, those didn’t start until the early 70s. Long after Pikes Peak.
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goodseed
It always seemed to me that VPW hammered pretty hard on the fact that the scriptures are of no private interpretation unless it was his own PI. Then he'd preface his "revelation" with some gobbledegook about "if you'd really study it and get into the depth of the Word, blah, blah blah, you'd see...." Then he'd come out of left field with some cockamamie bunch of crap that was opposite what biblical scholars have come up with for the past 2,000 years. How frustrating it must have been for God to have had no one listening to Him for such a long time before His anointed VP showed up to really speak for Him.
Even his schtick about SIT being the outward manifestation of being born again was, IMHO, PI.
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allan w.
I too have my doubts as to which people actually heard what whilst (supposedly) in twi. It seems the 'newer' people to join GSC either 'don't know', have 'forgotten', or are 'confused' as to what was actually taught there. Hmmmm.......
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bliss
I have to pipe in here.
I think we are forgetting the one main word in these debates. "perspective"
What Oldies says is right, ONLY in a sense of what was written/spoke by Wierwille.
MCarrol is right, ONLY in a sense of what was implied/practiced/internallized/applied. Especially in the 90's.
Some of you who are from the "oldWay" days, (no offence), have NO IDEA what twisting and the manipulating went on with what was from PFAL let alone just scripture. OR the yelling screaming, fear tactics that were in our face everyday.
Those who weren't around for the free love Koombaya fellowships around "what you thought" was God's word, have NO IDEA how nice the Way could have been at one time, or even what "really" came out of that mans mouth.
So lets give eachother a break when it comes to our perspective please. It really does shed light and makes a difference when we are discussing things.
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Oakspear
Seems like you're implying that some folks here weren't actually in TWI. Some weren't, most were. I don't understand why you feel that it is incredible that people who were in an organization that spanned the globe, and was different in character from one decade or one MOG to the next might disagree on what went on while in it.
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WordWolf
The OFFICIAL word on the subject, at least thru the 80s,
was that speaking in tongues was evidence of salvation,
not REQUIRED for salvation.
In more than one PRACTICAL sense, more than one leader treated anyone
who never did speak in tongues as unsaved, since they didn't have "proof"
of the person's salvation, so they were guilty until proven innocent.
A separate issue, of course, is that someone could have faked the thing.
After all, vpw HIMSELF supposedly faked it at that conference before he
met Stiles-according to vpw's own words on the subject.
======
Now, then,
just because vpw taught it one way (in public) in no way means that
EVERYONE taught it the same way in public.
The sad fact that some people here have decided that deficiencies in some
of the local teachers equals lies or errors on the part of the students is
in itself error,
but it's a COMMON error here, and a SYMPTOMATIC one.
It's part of a larger error that says "I saw it this way-
so EVERYONE saw it the same way, or they were WRONG."
It's been often pointed out that experiences changed from year to
year, location to location, and even town to town.
Therefore, ONE person's experience never speaks to EVERYONE's
experience here.
Presuming to know the content of teachings one was never present
for undermines one's own credibility.
However, around here, that's old news.
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dmiller
Coming from twi 1 -- I've ALWAYS heard that SIT was evidence (proof) of salvation,
but --- NOT a necessary thing, FOR salvation.
I've got a buncha tapes here with docvic teaching,
and I'm sure he's touched on this subject on them,
and I'm NOT going to dig through them all to find quotes --
But (if I recollect correct),
he never did say that you had to speak in tongues to be born again.
Meebe lcm did -- I don't know.
And what does lcm know -- anyway???
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Catcup
You're correct on that, dmiller.
LCM never taught it that way, either.
SIT was proof of salvation, but you could be born again and not be "instructed in the way of God more perfectly."
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def59
And since most of were not linguists, we could never really be sure we or anyone else was actually speaking in tongues. So we all played along and hoped we were right after all.
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oldiesman
I was sure, and still am, that I was speaking in tongues.
B.G. Leonard
Gifts of the Spirit
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Georgio Jessio
As I recall, the pressure to SIT was so great that many (everybody IMHO but that's another topic and I've raised it before here and at waydale) faked it. It indeed was said, early on, that you could be saved without SIT but over time almost no one fit into the catagory of "saved but doesn't SIT". So in "understanding" or as an unwritten rule, if you didn't SIT you weren't saved.
It was certainly considered a failure for the class leader if everyone didn't SIT. People were reamed for it.
On another note that site about TWI had this interesting quote about homosexuality:
"Also in 1994, President Martindale blamed the concentration of "practicing homosexuals" in the leadership Corps on "the homo logic" present in many Corps members. He criticized them for their lack of passion "about the truth of God's Word -- God's holy, magnificent Word -- as it stands totally against homosexuality in any form or fashion." 2 In a letter to Corps members, he implied that gays were no longer permitted to remain in the leadership Corps. However, if they honestly sought help for their condition, they could still "be a part of Way Ministry fellowships." Gays and lesbians were given biblical teaching about homosexuality, direct confrontation, and help to cure them of their behavior.
They were expected to convert from homosexuality to heterosexuality; they were not allowed to remain celibate gays and lesbians with homosexual fantasies."
I was long gone by then. How accurate is this statement?
I ask because it seems to me that celibacy is a very Christian lifestyle (for the unmarried) This statement basicly says that you have to be hetrosexually active if you were once gay or you'll be kicked out.
What kind of church kicks people out for NOT having sex?
Good Lord!
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Nottawayfer
I knew someone who was classified a "celibate" homosexual. He had been gay, changed once he got in twi. He later got reamed terribly because they said he was still a homo fantasizer (WHATEVER!!!!). It hurt him a lot. He was a pillar in our area and a very nice man. It was horrible to see him treated that way.
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bowtwi
A homo fantasizer! Oh my GOD, how funny that is to hear today! Reminds me of a lady I knew that was m & a'd over accusations of being a "homo sympathizer!" Lcm called her a "fag hag." Part of why she got kicked out was for supposedly missing that I was secretly a homo!
Oh man, I just had a fresh glass of iced soda and sat down for a relaxing time at the Cafe - now I had to clean my monitor screen! But it was worth it!
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Lifted Up
"no offence"...and noe taken here. I am one of those oldies, if you consider last in at the end of 1979 old enough. And I am aware that there were great changes in daily TWI life after that time. From my start on Waydale in 1999 I have tried to learn more about what happened after (and during) my time. As far as SIT being evidence of and not a requirement for salvation, that was pretty clear in PFAL, and I don't recall it being taught otherwise by anyone...in my time. But I would certainly be interested in when and by whom it was taught that you can't be saved if you don't SIT.
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Georgio Jessio
Which reminds me of a story, that I must have told here before.
I had a Boy George poster in my room in Rome City. I put it up to be a wise foot, alghough I was a fan of the music. I just wanted to ruffle feathers as I hated being there and was feeling abused. It was a lash out.
Well, much to my dismay, Bob Moneyhands woke me up at 3 AM to rebuke the homo spirit from me. Cured me good. I now own the Culture Club box set and every record on vinyl and , as always was the case, I like girls.
Thanks for nothing Bob, you're so in tune and deep!
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GrouchoMarxJr
Hee hee...Yep, Ol' Bob was really sharp wasn't he?
I watched him leap over a table once to cast out an "epileptic spirit" from a guy who went down because of a cramp in his leg...
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